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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:12 PM
Original message
Any Iranian military experts here?
The fact that the Iraqi President met with the leaders of Iran has reignited a fear I've been having. We have been concentrating our military in the Persian Gulf. If Bush has his way, we'll soon be sending another 3,500 troops there.

My question is, could Iran, with or without the help of Syria, launch a Pearl Harbor-style surprise attack on American forces in the Gulf that could potentially cripple our ability to defend ourselves? If so, is there anything other than the nuclear option to deter them?

Hopefully someone can tell me that I'm an idiot for even considering this as a possibility. All I know is that if I were Iran, I would definitely be war-gaming this.

:scared:
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. What makes you think we can defend ourselves now?
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Jesus, calm down. Not going to happen. Congrats on the upcoming nuptials, by
the way, and please pass that sentiment on to the future Mrs F for me, if you would.

Redstone
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. No they can't.
Joe
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Launch an attack? Yes but the US would respond with devastating air strikes leaving
Iran destroyed as a viable nation.

Iran will not launch a preemptive attack against U.S. forces.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. Our spy satellites would pick up major movements in Iran's Airforce
Large aircraft carriers of the US are, I hope, not supposed to be inside the Persian Gulf. They would be safer in the Arabian Sea or further out in the Indian Ocean. We have heavy bombers located in Diego Garcia, and we have God knows how many warplanes all over Iraq, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, and other gulf states allied to the US.

The Iranian Airforce would likely not succeed in knocking out US capabilities in such an attack because we would get warning that they're moving to bomb airbases all over the Gulf region that house US warplanes. Even if they did destroy a portion of the US Airforce on the ground in the Gulf region, they will likely not succeed in aerial engagements with US pilots.

I would say, though, Iran would stand to lose more than it gains by attacking the US. The worry is if the US attacks Iran. Bush is as bad a calculator as far as military situations go as Saddam was when he felt he could take Iran in the 1980s.
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. More likely is FALSE FLAG blamed on IRAN
giving US and NATO excuse to attack Iran

Good chance of this

Another senario

Israel attacks Iran
Iran retaliates

Then US and NATO slam Iran

Both possibilities I worry about constantly
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I don't think NATO will go with us.
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 07:38 PM by Selatius
The UK might, but I hardly doubt the rest of Europe is ready to fight another world war. They don't seem interested in watching it happen three times in less than one century. A war with Iran could easily suck in Iraq. If Iraq flies to pieces in the war, northern Iraq could witness Turkey enter the war when it sends its million-man army in to crush any Kurdish aspirations of declaring independence from a fragmenting Iraq. You can probably assume Israel will be pulled into the war as well, since Iran would likely try to hit all US allies within reach in retaliation. Lebanon could become a battlefield again as Iran would try to get Hezbollah to attack Israel. Israel would respond to the attack. The Persian Gulf would be on fire with burning ships and sunk oil tankers.

A major victim in the war from the US perspective would be the US economy. Gas would be 5 to 8 dollars a gallon if war erupted with Iran. China would probably dump US bonds like mad. Venezuela could possibly levy an oil embargo against the US until a ceasefire is called. Other OPEC nations may do the same thing.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. The Iranian leader is very smart. He doesn't have to pull a Bush
(Unleash WW3)to get what he wants. He can outsmart Bush any day of the week.
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. He's also an insane religious fanatic
what ever could your point be about how smart he is?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. LOL
Yes, he's just like Saddam!

:rofl:
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Except Saddam wasn't a religious fanatic...
and didn't talk about the coming Muslim messiah and Muslims needing to prepare to rule the world.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Why do you hate America?
:rofl:
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I don't
I love America. At least I love the ideal of America and what we are supposed to be.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. Bush is an insane religious fanatic as well, but is stupid.
My point is that when someone is smart they might use their brains, not bombs like Bush did.
Which was the fear expressed in the original post.

Very important to know the landscape if you are trying to predict behavior. And to be honest about it, whether you like the truth or not.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. My take, FWIW
Unlike Iraq, Iran has not spent the last fifteen years having its conventional forces worn down by grueling sanctions, repeated attacks, and two American-led wars. While Iran's conventional army is not what it was during the heyday of the Iran-Iraq war - their armaments have deteriorated and the veterans of that last war have retired - the nation enjoys substantial military strength nonetheless.

According to a report issued by the Center for Strategic and International Studies in December of 2004, Iran "has some 540,000 men under arms and over 350,000 reserves. They include 120,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards trained for land and naval asymmetrical warfare. Iran's military also includes holdings of 1,613 main battle tanks, 21,600 other armored fighting vehicles, 3,200 artillery weapons, 306 combat aircraft, 60 attack helicopters, 3 submarines, 59 surface combatants, and 10 amphibious ships."

"Iran is now the only regional military power that poses a significant conventional military threat to Gulf stability," continued the CSIS report. "Iran has significant capabilities for asymmetric warfare, and poses the additional threat of proliferation. There is considerable evidence that it is developing both a long-range missile force and a range of weapons of mass destruction. It has never properly declared its holdings of chemical weapons, and the status of its biological weapons programs is unknown."

A MILNET brief issued in February 2005 reports, "Due to its position astride the Persian Gulf, Iran has constantly been a threat to the Gulf. The so called 'Tanker' wars in the late 1980s put Iran squarely in the bullseye of all nations seeking to transport oil out of the region. Even the small navy that Iran puts to sea is capable enough to harass shipping, and several cases of small boat operations against oil well heads in the Gulf during that period made it clear small asymmetrical tactics of the Iranian Navy could be quite effective."

"More concerning," continued the MILNET brief, "is the priority placed on expanding and modernizing its Navy. The CSIS report cites numerous areas where Iran has funded modernization including the most troublesome aspect, anti-shipping cruise missiles: 'Iran has obtained new anti-ship missiles and missile patrol craft from China, midget submarines from North Korea, submarines from Russia, and modern mines.'"

It is Iran's missile armaments that pose the greatest concern for American forces in the Gulf, especially for the US Navy. Iran's coast facing the Persian Gulf is a looming wall of mountains that look down upon any naval forces arrayed in those waters. The Gulf itself only has one exit, the Strait of Hormuz, which is also dominated by the mountainous Iranian coastline. In essence, Iran holds the high ground in the Gulf. Missile batteries arrayed in those mountains could raise bloody havoc with any fleet deployed below.

Of all the missiles in Iran's armament, the most dangerous is the Russian-made SS-N-22 Sunburn. These missiles are, simply, the fastest anti-ship weapons on the planet. The Sunburn can reach Mach 3 at high altitude. Its maximum low-altitude speed is Mach 2.2, some three times faster than the American-made Harpoon. The Sunburn takes two short minutes to cover its full range. The missile's manufacturers state that one or two missiles could cripple a destroyer, and five missiles could sink a 20,000 ton ship. The Sunburn is also superior to the Exocet missile. Recall that it was two Exocets that ripped the USS Stark to shreds in 1987, killing 37 sailors. The Stark could not see them to stop them.

The US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt is currently deployed in the Persian Gulf, with some 7,000 souls aboard. Sailing with the Roosevelt is the Tarawa Expeditionary Strike Force, which includes the USS Tarawa, the USS Austin, and the USS Pearl Harbor. The USS Austin is likewise deployed in the Gulf. The Sunburn missile, with its incredible speed and ability to avoid radar detection, would do terrible damage these ships if Iran chooses to retaliate in the Gulf after an American attack within its borders.

Beyond the naval threat is the possibility of Iran throwing its military muscle into the ongoing struggle in Iraq. Currently, the US is facing an asymmetrical attack from groups wielding small arms, shoulder-fired grenades and roadside bombs. The vaunted American military has suffered 2,210 deaths and tens of thousands of wounded from this form of warfare. The occupation of Iraq has become a guerrilla war, a siege that has lasted more than a thousand days. If Iran decides to throw any or all of its 23,000 armored fighting vehicles, along with any or all of its nearly million-strong army, into the Iraq fray, the situation in the Middle East could become unspeakably dire.

The rest: http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/48/16812
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Bingo! Two words: Sunburn Missile.
I have been reading mentions of these missiles for several years, and I am sure the Iranians would attempt to defend themselves. I doubt they would actually start anything: one- because the real rulers of the country (the mullahs) have said they do not want war, and two- despite the bluster, they really don't want another war.

Most of what we hear is mere hot air, designed to appeal to the president's "base," and because rhetoric and overblown speech are a tradition in Iran.
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everythingsxen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
9. It is "possible"
however what Iran would need would be a nuclear weapon. Potentially, Russia could be willing to sell them one. At that point all they would have to do is herd us into Baghdad. Nuke Baghdad, along with most of our forces and it's adios muchachos. Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian forces storm Iraq and our remaining troops, Iran has a large enough Navy to wipe out the forces we have stationed in the Gulf region.

Then of course comes the retaliation.... we would almost certainly want to go nuclear, though it is possible for China and Russia to intervene and tell us that if we nuke them, they will nuke us and it becomes a standoff. There is also the non zero chance that while the MidEast battles were happening, with our attention diverted and so few forces to defend ourselves, Russia, China and potentially Venezuela could mass forces and attack us.

Granted that is a paranoid version of things, but it "could" happen. Then again they "could" make Bacon flavored Ice Cream.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'm not a military authority but I strongly believe Iran will NOT launch
a first strike attack against American forces. Conversely, I'm not convinced Bush* would not attempt an Operation Northwoods/Gulf of Tonkin incident/'Remember the Maine' sort of thing to get things going.
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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not a chance. Iran has too much to gain....
Perhaps the greatest irony of this whole Iraq war fiasco is that Iran is the BIG winner.

By far the largest (most populous), richest, most technologically advance and resource endowed Persian Gulf country and among the two or three most powerful in the region (add in Turkey, Pakistan and perhaps Egypt), Iran has long aspired to regional hegemony. The US government and Saudis knew this and so used the Baathist Sunni power in Iraq as a bulwark against the emerging Iranian military threat in the 80s (Iran-Iraq war).

Of course, we've since completely shattered the state that was once Iraq, which has disintegrated into near anarchy, it has enabled the well placed Iranian intelligence service to penetrate southern Iraq and bolster the Shiia militias. Iraq may become a puppet state of Iran when we leave. Meanwhile, since the US is thinly stretch and * emasculated by the mid-terms, Iran is fast-tracking their nuclear program virtually without fear of US reprisal (warmongering op-eds by neocons notwithstanding). Moreover, Iran's long time support for Hezbollah places it in a VERY influential position in Lebanon, the territories occupied by Israel and to a degree in Syria.

No Iran won't do anything rash, they need only bide their time, get the bomb and then begin the process of building a new Persian empire in the northern Gulf area.
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