Good God almighty. Knock it off with the "Dems have betrayed us" BS

[JohnnyCougar]

Filibustering a court nominee is a very difficult and unusual thing to pull off. When you lose the majority in the House, the Senate and you lose the presidency, this is what happens. You have no say in selecting a justice. Alito is bad...far worse than Roberts, but you have to be president to appoint a supreme court justice. And we all know who is president. We're not going to get anyone we want in there. Furthermore, public support for a filibuster is mild. We did good. We got 25 votes for a filibuster, which to me is amazing. We showed that we are a force to be dealt with and reckoned with. We showed that we can get organized. In this sense, we succeeded.

In the days leading up to the cloture vote, it was evident that a filibuster was not going to happen anyway. About 10 Dem senators decided to cut their losses and vote for cloture. We have made progress, though. There was not nearly as much opposition to Roberts, although Roberts was less of an extremist. But I don't think ours and Reid's efforts were a total loss. Regardless of the cloture vote, the actual vote will be closer. And the Democrats have shown some evidence of having spines. We're not there yet. We didn't get a clear message out soon enough on Alito. But we came close. Our party is learning how to organize and become a team. It takes time, patience, and practice.

Harry Reid is awesome. He is standing up and fighting. If you people don't think that today was a good effort, you need to get real. A filibuster on a judicial nominee for the Supreme Court when the public doesn't support it is not a good move. I'm glad that 25 Senators still voted against cloture. That's good enough for me for now. Instead of complaining and threatening to leave the party, help make it stronger so we can defeat nominees with a straight up vote, and not a filibuster. And help get one of our own as president so we don't have to vote on other guy's appointees.

[skipos]

1. I am with you. nt

[jefferson_dem]

2. Right on, Brother!

:thumbsup:

[acmavm]

3. I don't intend to leave the party, but I do think we need to kick a few of

these asses out. Make them earn a living some other way than screwing us.

[JohnnyCougar]

5. Start with kicking the Republicans out of office.

Then we will be a majority. Then start with Lieberman.

I see people complaining about Feingold, Reid and Clinton on here. But these people are the solutions, not the center of the problem.

[Jane Austin]

39. You can't kick 'em out unless you live in the states that elected them.

That's just the way it shakes out.

We should do everything we can to encourage liberal positions and liberal officeholders. We should uphold and celebrate those elected Dmes who fight the good fight every day.

But . . . there isn't much you can do to "Kick a few of these asses out" unless you live in their states.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jane Austin]

154. So . . . I'm not supposed to participate in this discussion without

being told crudely where to put my opinion?

Does anybody know of a board where a life-long Democratof a certain age can participate in rational discussions about Democratic politics and strategies?

I'd like to join such a board, as DU seems to be more and more devoted to anti-Democrat rants.

Thanks.

[WildEyedLiberal]

4. Reid's efforts? What a laugh!

John Kerry and Ted Kennedy did ALL the heavy lifting on this filibuster. Reid didn't lift a finger except to vote no, and made good and damn sure that everyone knew he thought it was a bad idea. Reid did JACK for the filibuster. He rolled over and let two men who aren't even in the Senate leadership pick up the slack and do his job for him. Some awesome leader.

[JohnnyCougar]

8. LOL...I think your expectations are too high.

For a party that has no practical power in either the Senate or the House, and does not control the presidency, you are expecting too much out of them. Alito would not be nominated if Bush weren't president. End of story. So work to unite Democrats so that Bush can be kicked out. Stop complaining about our side when you are supposed to get behind them.

[WildEyedLiberal]

20. Give credit where credit is due

Kerry and Kennedy got together all the steam we had - saying that Reid deserves accolades for today's results is just factually incorrect. Like him if you want, but don't pretend he deserves the credit for this, because he made it patently clear he was opposed to a filibuster.

[FreedomAngel82]

40. Kerry is the one who did it

Kennedy supported him.

[beaconess]

99. True - Reid didn't do squat and did his damnest to derail the

filibuster effort.

I like Harry Reid, but he was a tower of jello on this one, shrugging his shoulders and saying helplessly, "we just don't have the votes" when it's his JOB to try to get the votes he needs.

We needed someone to influence the vote, not just count it, to turn up the heat, not just measure it.

We needed a thermostat, not a thermometer.

[fooj]

87. We did work our asses off against Bush! TWICE.

We did "knock him off"...

He robbed it from this country...both times.

Peace.

[JMDEM]

117. Gee -- why were the MINORITY Republicans so effective then?

Under your logic, any minority party should just roll over and play dead. So much for democracy.

[Tigress DEM]

136. Win Lose or Draw, Reid should have stood with the real DEMS.

Unless he's going to be able to get swing votes out of moderate Republicans as a trade off for bowing out of the filibuster, then he is slapping us right in the face. I thought he had the guts to stand up to power and speak the truth, but apparantly I was wrong.

The filibuster IS the proper tool for the minority party. I know it's a messy tool and maybe there were reasons not to pursue it, but if Reid is just on the political horse of convienence and not working to body slam Alito's vote into the ground, then he doesn't deserve to be the party leader.

He is capable of a lot, but Kennedy and Kerry and even Gore have been more impressive lately by showing they understand what is at stake and are willing to pull out the stops to get there.

It's like we're in a canoe about to go over a waterfall and you're laughing at us for expecting everyone to paddle like mad in the same direction --- AWAY from imminent death and destruction.

I am hopeful that there is something more that can be done and that maybe getting to the vote if there's a chance of voting Alito out is actually an ok plan --- if that's what it is. Otherwise, there is the possibility of IMPEACHMENT for a Supreme Court Justice, but then there will have to be laws broken and proof. And people will have to suffer because of him.

[donco6]

47. I totally agree with you on that.

Reid did nothing. In fact, IMO, the DNC orchestrated the entire outcome, down to the assignment of the Vichy Dems.

[FogerRox]

96. Kerry & Kennedy started it-- not HArry

[carolinalady]

110. Yep-it was Kerry and Edwards and Reid should have

shamed the rest of them into following. What kind of message does it send when our own reps don't follow our chosen leader (Kerry)?
How do we say to the world he is a leader, he should be president, but I don't agree with him on this? This is why we don't win IMO.
There are too many looking out for themselves. The Repukes are wrong, but they all agree to be wrong which sends a strong message to the sheeples.

[FormerRepublican]

6. Well, the first step of this "difficult" process is to vote no on cloture.

19 Dems flunked the first step. Alito is BAD, HORRIBLE, REPREHENSIBLE for our country. The ONLY chance we had to support our values was through the actions of Dems in the Senate today. They chose to think about their careers and their corporate cronies rather than the woman who will die from botched abortions, the minorities who will be discriminated against, the children who will be strip searched without a warrent, the disabled who will be horribly abused and denied justice, and every American citizen who will no longer enjoy the civil rights that more than 200 YEARS of US Citizens have enjoyed before us. The Dems in Congress threw away our democracy, so "difficult" as the process was, I have no sympathy.

They were our only hope, and they blew it.

[JohnnyCougar]

16. I'm glad they are thinking about their careers.

If they weren't, we wouldn't even have enough to filibuster even along party lines. Repuclicans win by thinking about their careers. The rules aren't different for Democrats.

If you think Ben Nelson is going to vote for a filibuster in Nebraska, in one of the reddest states in the US, think again. I'd rather have him there than another Sam Brownback.

[FormerRepublican]

33. So if Bush goes to Congress and says "Authorize this war on Iran"

...Dems in the Senate should think about their careers and vote yea? Where do you draw the line?

Perhaps I feel a bit more strongly because I'm a woman and am more likely to be adversely affected.

[JohnnyCougar]

41. Even with Alito...

they still don't have the votes to overturn Roe v. Wade.

It's not going to happen, though. The public is against overturning Roe v Wade. I'd like to see the Repubicans try. If they succeed, they will destroy their party. If they want to do it, I say "bring it on." Let them marginalize themselves.

Even still, voting for a filibuster on a war with Iran is a lot different from voting for one on a judicial apointee.

[FormerRepublican]

51. On that we disagree. Alito can do a LOT of damage while on the court,

and he can kill as many people as Bush is presently doing in Iraq.

What happens with Bush's next SC nominee? A-OK to look the other way then, too? What about when Alito hands absolute power to Bush, as he has already indicated he will? With the SC showing in Bush v. Gore, I have no faith whatsoever that they will stand up against the BushCo machine whenever they ask for something, including the end of Roe v. Wade.

You're entirely too optimistic for the circumstances, especially give recent past history.

[fooj]

97. Being a Senator isn't designed to be a CAREER CHOICE!!!

That's part of the problem.

[eallen]

108. Nay. The first step is to defeat the GOP senators up for election in 2006.

[FormerRepublican]

127. Cloture vote in Jan, elections in Nov, cloture vote comes first.

What the heck good does it do to elect a bunch of Dems who vote Republican?

[Mass]

7. There are many things that are true in your post concerning

how we did not make the case against Alito and how it is better to change the party from the inside.

However, I disagree with the idea that Reid made efforts. It has been largely reported in the media that he was opposed to the idea of a filibuster (though he ended voting for it) and that he did not do anything to help. Other senators led the fight, like Durbin, Kennedy and Kerry, Boxer, Stabenow, ... I also do not think he is fighting adequately, particularly if you compare to the way the Senate is fighting.

[seabeyond]

9. excellent post johnny. couldnt say it better. and i have tried, loln/t

[crispini]

10. Kick

:kick:

[More Than A Feeling]

11. I can't wait to pick up the House and some Senate seats this year

Pennsylvania (although Bob Casey must be watched like a hawk. Maybe he will learn the lesson of Lieberman, if Ned Lamont is successful), Missouri, Montana, Rhode Island, and Ohio are completely within reach. Our recruiting in the House is excellent. We could have 434 candidates (many of them quality challengers) this year, stretching the Reps to the limit, and creating conditions for a landslide.

However, the Alito 19 must be primaried, if only to teach them to be more cautious in crossing their base.

I also support the continuance of our current leadership team, and I agree that Harry Reid is far better than Daschle.

[rockymountaindem]

12. K & R n/t

[mello1]

13. Sry, but I don't agree....

The Democrats are operating from a point of weakness -- not because they are in the minority, but because they do not stand up for their convictions. Byrd is a straight up hypocrite. You cannot preach that sermon on the Senate floor about how important upholding the Constitution is and then turn around and vote for Alito.

Reid is weak. Sry but that is a fact. He never supported a filibuster in the first place and he turned his back on effectively rallying the troops. Principles ought to mean something. This is NOT a game. This is our lives here that these people in Congress are fukking over and the repercussions of this nomination will potentially ruin this country. They know this, yet they operate in fear.

Just like the rest of Americans who tune out what is happening to our government. They sit up and let the corporate-controlled media tell them that political matters are too damn complexed for them to try to think thru, let alone worry about. They dumb themselves down with American Idol, reality TV and the lost girl in Aruba.

The Dems as a whole basically ignored our efforts. Yes, some of them whose delusions of grandeur in thinking that they will make a viable Presidential candidate in 2008 voted more for their future careers than on basic principle. And if we were totally asleep at the wheel, they would have not even attempted a filibuster.

Well, many of them need to go back to the private sector. Or anywhere other than where they are because Congress is BROKEN. Until all of these idiots on both sides of the aisles are voted out and we get in people who believe in this government enough to govern, we all can just forget about it.

[cascadiance]

14. Look Republicans had a tougher job keeping their people in line!

They had more Senators to vote with their party. They had ALL of their party vote for Alito, didn't they? WHY OH WHY COULDN'T we just get 41 of our 44 senators to vote for the fillibuster? ANSWER? THEY'RE WIMPS! A bunch of LEADERLESS, MISSIONLESS, GREEDY, WIMPS!

I'm sorry for those that did want to try and do the fillibuster today and were betrayed by their fellow party members, but this is an ultimate failure by our party leadership and those members that abandoned it! This isn't about getting an extra vote when the vote didn't count to keep their constituency "happy". It was about trying to meet a big and important goal that ultimately FAILED to do! WHY should we vote for it, when it will FAIL AGAIN AND AGAIN WHEN THE CHIPS are down! I no longer vote for party. I vote for individuals that will do right by me! Sooner or later we'll get rid of all of this expensive DEAD WOOD!

Those that continue to accept these bums are part of the problem. If we all would say NO MORE, they wouldn't be pulling this crap and taking us for granted any more! There's nothing more to lose by voting against them now! We've already lost it now and we won't be solving anything more without a changing of the guard!

(Mike Malloy inspires me now! :) )

[JohnnyCougar]

18. False equivelance.

Voting for a filibuster is not the same as voting for cloture. Voting for a filibuster is a far more extreme vote. It is good that Dems showed some effort, but in the end, a filibuster was unattainable.

[cascadiance]

21. It's called DOING WHAT YOU CAN!

And not just participating in "beauty contests"... Republicans used to fillibuster a lot when they were a minority too. I'm TIRED of us just giving up when things are important!

[saracat]

57. WHY was it unattainable? We have 45 senators. We needed 41 votes.

WHY was it unattainable? What ghood reason could any Dem have for voting to end debate?

[JohnnyCougar]

62. Do you want Dem senators to lose their seats?

Ben Nelson would permanently injure his chances of being reelected if he voted to filibuster. So would Byrd, Baucus, Johnson, Dorgan, Conrad, Pryor, and Lincoln. Are we in a position to sacrifice those seats over one vote?

[saracat]

63. Why would they lose their seats?

It isn't as if the public supports Alito! Why would they lose their seats? If this is going to be a Dem year, and it should be with the Bushco poll numbers and the public trusts the Dems more than Bush, why wqould this one vote cost their seats?

[JohnnyCougar]

66. The public does support Alito, unfortunately.

Especially in red states.

[saracat]

69. Hogwash. Show me the proof of that. I LIVE in a red state

and my repuke relatives were calling insupport of the filibuster. Seems the repukes don't like wiretapping!

[JohnnyCougar]

70. A poll was cited below. Only 38% supported a filibuster.

And even less, of course, in the red states.

[saracat]

81. An unscientific CNN Poll? Next will be FOX!

[JohnnyCougar]

85. The poll was scientific.

D'Nile...it ain't just a river in Egypt.

[saracat]

88. And the DLC is winning elections ! Yay! Good DLC!

[onenote]

90. well, apparently the DLC is winning some elections

Otherwise there wouldn't be DLC senators to complain about.

onenote

[fooj]

104. I've got the Fox poll...53% AGAINST THE CONFIRMATION of Alito.

Fox News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace.

[fooj]

103. Imagine that!

:spray:

[fooj]

101. I saw a FAUX NEW POLL...mind you FAUX NEWS

It was 53% do not support Alito on the SCOTUS! That's from fricking Fox News! Talk about a bias sample. They STILL came up with a 53%! So much for the red state theory. You know what? Bottom line...they could give a rat's ass about their constituents. By the people, for the people...

Peace.

[cascadiance]

71. With that logic then Snow and Chafee, etc. should have been afraid too!

Why did they vote with the Republicans? Maybe, just maybe they thought their party goal was important? Like ours SHOULD have been?

[JohnnyCougar]

75. Chaffee is voting against Alito.

He is not for the filibuster, but he is against Alito.

Filibusters are supposed to be used for extreme circumstances only. The case was not made that this was an extreme circumstance.

[cascadiance]

77. Oh... the "beauty contest" vote...

It was a USELESS vote designed to distort what he TRUELY voted for, which was to support Alito getting in. He had the option of voting against cloture and MAKING A DIFFERENCE! He chose not to. In my book, he's therefore anti-abortion! His constituents should be reminded of that in his district, just like the Rethugs will remind voters that we are pro-choice!

[fooj]

92. One vote?

Byrd voted for the bankruptcy bill. Byrd voted that woman on the federal courts. (Don't remember her name) Baucus? Leibermann? Landrieu? Look at their voting records and then sit down and think about whether or not they have EARNED those seats. You tell me.

It's that simple.

Peace.

[FogerRox]

100. the vote can crown GWB--

[grace0418]

143. One vote? ONE VOTE?!

You know, I agree with much of your original post, but I hardly think this is just any old vote. This vote hands the right wing total control of all our branches of government. Sure, BushCo would've kept giving us bad nominees, but a filibuster would've sent a message that Dems are paying attention and they're not going to back down. Except they didn't filibuster, they did back down.

There was a small part of me that had a seed of hope that maybe, just maybe, we could get the fucker squatting in the White House impeached before he had a chance to nominate any other disasters in judicial robes. Now that small molecule of hope is gone. So now we're stuck with a right-wing SCOTUS for the rest of our lives and impeachment is barely a possibility anymore.

That's what this one vote did.

[sendero]

149. Bull....

... shit. You actually think that someone would be risking their seat over such a vote?

That's ridiculous, 90% of Americans couldn't tell you whether Alito was good or bad, or why. Just once in a while, the people who are paying attention, i.e. the BASE, should get some respect.

And as for damage to Dems, what good is having a Dem senator who always votes with the other side on crucial issues. Fuck that nonsense - Nelson is no better than the median Repub - I don't want him STINKING UP THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY if he has no fucking clue, and he doesn't.

[mmonk]

15. pffffft

:spray:

[joemurphy]

17. Horseshit!

Alito wasn't popular. The DNC, the DLC, Harry Reid, our last candidate for President, and thousands of party activists, were asking our Senators to extend debate on a benighted, Federalist-Society appointed tool for a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court.

And what did we get. Great work. 25 of our Senators came to the plate.
19 traitors stabbed them, and you and me in the back.

They are as complicit in Alito getting on the bench as the Federalist Society.

Don't give me this -- don't be hard on our Democrats crap. It's pure shit.
They should be drummed out of the party. Traitors! Real "Profiles in Courage".

Fuck them all.

[JohnnyCougar]

22. Enjoy a Republican landslide in 2006 then.

When you waste all your time trying to vote out our strongest assets, you won't have a leg to stand on when the Republicans have a 20 seat advantage in the Senate.

[cascadiance]

24. Will a Republican landslide really make a difference?

We're already in the toilet now with a Republican Lite Democrat party in power now...

[jonnyblitz]

30. exactly. nt

[onenote]

93. yes, more repubs would be a disaster.

Just look at what happened at the end of the year. We beat back ANWR. We kept the Patriot Act from being reauthorized in its current form. Yes, we need repub help to get there...that's basic math. But if you subtract out a few more Democrats, then we lose ANWR. Patriot Act. And god only knows what else.

onenote

[jonnyblitz]

27. well, when the DEMS vote like republicans what is the fucking

difference? some of us care about the (gasp) issues not just whether somebody has a D next to their name.

[onenote]

95. If you care about the issues (not just one or two), then you better hope

we don't get any more repubs in office.

onenote

[FormerRepublican]

114. Or any more Dems who vote Republican.

[Twist_U_Up]

28. Republicans will get what they need.

They control the elections.

[joemurphy]

34. I got a flash for you pal, we're not gonna win your way in 2006

We'll win by opposing Bush, not kissing his ass and putting his hand-picked tool on the Supreme Court.

And read what I write. I said that those traitors should be drummed out of the party. Replace them with people that fight. Not invertebrates that just go along and ask us for more money.

All they had to do today was say no. They didn't because they were too
chicken-shit and too worried about pissing off the Bible-thumpers in their Red States. And then, of course, there's Lieberman. Explain that one to me, oh wise one.

Are these the standard-bearers that will lead us to victory in 2006?
Dream on.

[onenote]

98. yes, Alito is Chimpy's "hand picked" tool

That's what presidents get to do...hand pick SCOTUS Justices. If a bi-partisan effort to filibuster Alito could've been mounted, great. But otherwise, it was a dangerous game...too dangerous for certain Democrats apparently. Do I wish it was otherwise...sure. But let's not romanticize the filibuster. It is a tool by which a minority frustrates the will of the majority. It can be used to protect minorities from abuse. But it also can be and has been used to very ill-effect over the years -- blocking civil rights legislation and campaign reform to name two examples. The public doesn't really "get" the idea of a filibuster and thus its use is always fraught with danger.

onenote

[joemurphy]

126. So that justifies a cloture vote?

These clowns just saddled the country with Samuel Alito, my friend. We could have done something about it. But you're right. It would have been "shudder" too dangerous!

In the process our spineliness "Profiles in Courage" have triangulated away another cretin who will all too willingly scrap a woman's reproductive rights, uphold a "unitary executive" and condone the killings of juveniles for petty crimes. Let's throw in strip searches of
10-year old girls for a little comic relief too.

But I see what you mean. With Bush at 39% approval, Rove and Frist being investigated, Abramoff, Delay, Plamegate, an endless war in Iraq, and a scot-free Osama and 90% of Dems opposed to Alito, I can readily see why voting for extended debate on a Scalia-clone would have been fraught with peril. Those noble Dems that voted for cloture were strategizing. I failed to triangulate. My bad. Forget everything I said. How could I have been so wrong?

[Kire]

160. Nasty

nt

[mello1]

45. Look. The Republicans already have a 20 seat advantage...

And so what? I don't particularly care for the Green party or Ralph Nader, but I understand his point now. It's going to take it getting as bad as it can get because the people will want a change. And be compelled to make it happen.

[FogerRox]

102. 20 seats-- where-- ?

44 - 55 senate

IIRC House 15 or 16 seats

[jonnyblitz]

23. yup COMPLETE horseshit...

I am in no mood for party loyalist bullshit happy talk tonight.. :puke:

[G_j]

19. we were betrayed a long time ago

for example, did you notice that we have a torture advocate who pisses on the Geneva conventions as chief law enforcement officer of the land?
What would you call the bankruptcy bill if not betrayal?
How about the energy bill as the oil companies make all time record profits and people can't afford to heat their homes?

Maybe we need to come up with a new definition of betrayal?

[JohnnyCougar]

25. Republicans being out of power would help this situation.

Not Democrats being out of power.

[G_j]

56. I'd never vote for an R

I would still vote for a D, but that doesn't mean we haven't been betrayed.

Remember the scene in Fahrenheit 9/11 where the Congressional Black Caucus could not get the support of a single Senator?
That IS betrayal.

I'll always vote, don't worry about that,
but I urge my fellow progressive thinkers to get out in the streets in the tradition of MLK. Politics as usual is not enough.

[JohnnyCougar]

72. That is true.

If there was any failure, it was the continued failure for Democrats to get a decent, clear message out about Alito that stuck. They should have been tying him in with the domestic spying scandal right away, and been more organized about labeling him as anti-choice.

But this is not Reid's fault. We need our own Fox News and more liberal talk radio. And we need to swing the MSM back to the center again.

[G_j]

86. I don't blame Reid

they ALL should have foreseen the disaster coming.
And certainly the Rs are responsible to the people and the Constitution, no matter what "party' affiliation they claim.

[fooj]

107. Hell, I'd just like to "swing them back" to reporting the truth!

Peace.

[John Q. Citizen]

59. Bush Prescription Drug Bill, 10 Dem line crossers put it through.

One was my nominally Democratic Senator Max Baucas, who isn't exactly taking lots of credit for it at this point.

He's just talking about how the bill he crossed party lines to ram through needs to be changed and improved.

I know what needs to be changed and improved.

[Toucano]

26. United we stand, divided we fall.

It's as simple as that.

Being in the minority means unity is more important.

Bush would have nothing without the help of Democrats. Helper monkeys, if you will.

This BS argument that "He won the election and promised to change the court." is a load of crap, defying both reason and fact.

[Cascadian]

73. If anybody that should be blamed for the division in the party....

it's the DLC, Republican Lite, corporatist types who masquarade as Democrats. If it weren't for them and their complacency, we wouldn't have the problems we have. It is their fault!


John

[Peggy Day]

29. I quit!

[gumby]

31. I don't think this is a political game of strategies or tactics.

What happened today was that Democracy was smashed.

President Bush was NEVER elected. NEVER. He doesn't 'get' to pick anyone.

The fascists have so destroyed the electoral system with such massive fraud, Democrats will never retake the House or Senate.

Not only do I think today's not a good effort, I think the Democrats are utterly shameful. They took an oath to defend the Constitution and the spit on it today. They are traitors.

Roe v. Wade will be overturned as fast as you can say Bush v. Gore. And that will only be the beginning. Everything that has to do with the common welfare will be smashed, destroyed, finished.

It doesn't matter if the Dems grow a spine because it's too late now.

[JohnnyCougar]

43. Go try and get elected running on this platform.

[Tigress DEM]

140. Well, there are 25 who are likely to get votes from their

respective DU constituents because of their courage to stand up and do the right thing. That's about 80,000 - plus our friends and relatives who listen to us rant and rave.

Then there are 2 million that showed up to the Millions More March in Washington DC and the 1/2 million that showed up for the Peach March. We didn't get counted and there may have been some overlap. These people respect politicians that stand up for their principles.

Call it the MLK/RosaParks/Ghandi platform or call it what you want, but standing up speaking the truth is a good platform.

Saying that this racist sob (whose resume would be rejected by Burger King if it was openly known that he lied on it to get a job with President Reagan or that he has problems remembering where his money came from)IS a racist sob who does NOT DESERVE a SUPREME COURT APPOINTMENT instead of somehow this great gem of a man because he's the best GW can scrape up is a better platform than "Gee, I have to cover my own assets, sorry about tossing the Constitutional checks and balances down the toilet guys, but I've got elections coming up in 2006."

[Blue_In_AK]

48. Defeatism gets you nowhere. n/t

[Jane Austin]

54. ALL of them?

"Not only do I think today's not a good effort, I think the Democrats are utterly shameful. They took an oath to defend the Constitution and the spit on it today. They are traitors."

Way to lump the good guys in with the bad guys.

Bet the ones who fought really hard and put themselves on the line are glad to read this condemnation of all of them.

So they're all traitors, huh?

Nice.

[cascadiance]

131. The problem is with the way the Dems didn't vote together...

It's hard to know if ANY of them voted truly what their conscience told them, or if they all voted to pander to their constituencies' votes, knowing full well that the vote was going to fail.

I wouldn't label all of them as being sellouts. I don't have any reason to feel that way necessarily. But ask yourself this.

If Diane Feinstein knew that she were the deciding vote for the fillibuster when she voted no on cloture, would she still have voted "no"? If she knew that the vote was failing, she could "safely" vote no and tell her constituency that she voted no so that Cindy Sheehan shouldn't have to run against her, and she told the corporations that sponsor her that her vote no on cloture didn't make any real difference to them either, since Alito still would get approved.

Had she been the deciding vote with her no, then she'd have had some splainin' to do to her corporate sponsors if she voted no, and she might have voted yes instead in that instance. Same goes for many of the others that voted no. We will never know how many of them were truely sincere about the vote, since the vote didn't pass (and they had so many meetings about it before they actually did the vote).

About the only folks that one can count on to have done what they wanted with a fillibuster vote were those that went out ahead of time and stated they would fillibuster, likely before they knew whether or not such a majority could be achieved or not, but even then, we can't be sure.

Had the fililbuster vote succeeded, we'd all know that those that voted for it would have been sincere with their vote. With it failing, it looks like a pox on all of their houses!

[punpirate]

32. 41 Republican Senators voted to confirm...

... Clarence Thomas in 1991. How did he get on the Supreme Court? Eleven Democrats voted for him. Nine years later, did Clarence Thomas think back on those Democrats in Bush v. Gore in 2000?

Not on your life.

I don't see any valor in losing a battle because the fight was indifferently fought--and that's exactly what happened today. In fact, nineteen Democratic soldiers didn't just desert--they joined the opposition, in what was the biggest battle of the year, maybe for some time to come. One won't win the war that way. One won't have a Democratic president in 2008 that way. One won't have a Democratic Congress in 2006 that way.

What's a fact now--because of those nineteen--is that Alito will be confirmed and will be free to exercise his authoritarian will on the rights of all of us for twenty or thirty years.

To me, it's just empty rhetoric to call a capitulation to tyranny a good fight--especially when it wasn't.

[onenote]

109. And in 1993 39 repubs voted to confirm Ginsburg

even though she was on record as pro-choice. If the name of the game is to filibuster whenever you have 40 votes, then the public will end up deciding that its better off if one party has 61 members...just as that party would've been the Democrats if the repubs had filibustered Ginsburg in 1993, today any backlash is more likely to hurt the Democrats.

onenote

[punpirate]

123. Keep on believing that...

... keep on believing that it's fair play at work. Thomas has been a disaster for the court, and for citizens' rights, but he's been countered--until the balance shifts his way. Alito will be a disaster as well, but now, he's in the general majority (if one considers Kennedy weak and leaning rightward, as he most certainly is).

That's why Alito was and is and will continue to be dangerous. Y'know, people think this is a battle in some abstract sense, that it's a tactical move on a political chessboard. This man, Samuel Alito, in concert with other right-wingers on the court, threatens my rights and he threatens yours, too. His presence on the court can and will ensure that the abuses of the Bush administration will be projected far into the future--possibly in ways we can't imagine today.

Try not thinking about this in the abstract. Try not thinking of it as just a political tug-of-war. Try considering it as a real threat to your life and that of your family. Because, frankly, I think that's exactly what it is.

[Blue_In_AK]

35. I like your attitude...

I am disappointed at today's results, but we did manage to change a few minds. We need to continue to be heard, even when the going gets tough -- and I have no doubt it will get tougher. The quest for justice has never been easy.

[rateyes]

36. IMHO, this was one of the most (next to war) important...

votes a Senator can make. Even if not everybody in the country "knew the issues" or "supported a filibuster"--had they done it, it would have made enough news to allow us to tell "the people" why it was done. That's a fight I think we could have won...but, we won't even get the chance now.

Each Senator, in his/her lifetime rarely gets a chance to vote on such an important issue...this guy will shape the country for years to come...and, BTW, Bush didn't win...and, that's not sour grapes.

Why in the hell should a criminal like Bush be allowed to even have a chance to nominate a Supreme Court Justice? His rear-end should have been impeached and removed from office long ago.

[Matariki]

37. bullshit the public didn't support a filabuster

[FreedomAngel82]

42. Yes they did!

DID YOU NOT SEE ALL THE POLLS?! EVERY DAMN POLL WAS ON THE DEMOCRATS SIDE! EVERY DAMN ONE!

[JohnnyCougar]

44. Really? Show me.

[Matariki]

55. why don't you show *your* statistics?

that the public way against a filibuster. that is NOT the impression i got. 90% of Dems were against Alito and 37% Repubs were too.

[JohnnyCougar]

60. Here. Only 38% support a filibuster.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/23/alito/

54% back his confirmation.

Why should Democrats vote on the losing side of this issue when we need to win in November?

[WildEyedLiberal]

65. Way to triangulate

I thought we were supposed to follow our convictions, not the polls? Guess not. :eyes:

I guess principles are only to be followed when they suit your interest.

[JohnnyCougar]

68. Establishing legitimate power to guide the country is more important first

You can't lead if you are not in power. It's as simple as that.

[fooj]

111. I've got a few polls for you...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x266798

Check it out.

[JohnnyCougar]

157. All are irrelevant.

Those polls show general support for the filibuster, and have nothing to do with whether Alito specifically should be filibustered.

The public is against filibustering Alito.

[Matariki]

52. oops - that's what i meant - my bad.

i meant the public wasn't opposed to a filibuster, like the OP said. I was calling bullshit on the OP.

[onenote]

112. except the public wasn't supportive of a filibuster

Show me one scientific poll that suggests otherwise. The public instinctively doesn't "get" the idea of a filibuster. People view politics like sports: the team with the most points wins. The team that's losing can't simply call a timeout and keep the game from ever ending. That's what a filibuster seems like to most people and the fact that in the past it was used by racist pigs to block civil rights legislation doesn't help either.

Does that mean the filibuster isn't a legitimate tool? No. But it means that you better have substantial public support before you try one. And that support clearly wasn't present this time around, at least not in a number of states.

onenote

[cascadiance]

133. Would the public have been supportive of that "closed meeting" earlier?

You know the on that Reid called in efforts to draw attention to doing an investigation on WMD's, etc. Had we done a poll in advance of that, it would probably show that the public didn't support that either, because THEY WOULDN'T HAVE UNDERSTOOD how it was being used. Much like most of the public doesn't understand how the fillibuster works either. A more relevant poll is how many people support Judge Alito or not. As someone noted, there was a poll done on Fox that showed that a majority didn't support Alito there.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy the public supporting Alito. And keep in mind, we're talking about those areas with Democratic senators, not Republican areas. Polls are measuring *everyone*, not just those areas with Democratic representation (even if it is a battleground area where the Dem barely won a seat). Therefore I'd still say that a majority of these folks constituents wanted them to fight Alito's confirmation! They WILL pay for their mistake this time! We've given them a pass for way too many times in the past (bankruptcy bill, Iraq war vote, Patriot Act, etc.).

[onenote]

148. apples and oranges

Closed meeting is hardly the same as preventing a vote on a Supreme Court nominee. As for your claim that we're talking "those areas with Democratic senators" -- many of the Democrats that didn't support a filibuster are from states that are anything but solidly Democratic (e.g. Nebraska, Montana); indeed, several have either a republican governor or the second senator is a republican. Or they have very narrow margins: Cantwell won her election with 49 percent of the vote. These are statewide races and you can be certain that the Senators running in those areas have a sense of what the polls show in their states, not just nationally.

[cascadiance]

156. Gore and Nader collectively had 54% of the Washington vote in 2000

against Bush's 45%. Surely, if we get a decent *REAL* progressive candidate, we should be able to attract more than 49% later. I think that Cantwell might collect less than 49% this coming time. Those 3-4% that voted for greens in the presidential election probably will be defecting this time around from her for sure, if not more! Need to get a better candidate this time!

[FreedomAngel82]

38. They did betray us

Unless you like fascism.

[JohnnyCougar]

49. One justice isn't going to turn this nation to fascism.

Alito is bad, but remember, he is only one of nine. We didn't have enough votes for a filibuster anyways. So there was nothing more we could do. Except get more Democrats elected in the near future so a filibuster is not necessary.

[saracat]

58. Really? And all of the other Jutices either are fair or can be expected to

live forever?

[mello1]

74. Ahhh. Let's do the math, okay?

With Alito, there will be FIVE, count'um, 5 justices that will vote in a block for political purposes. Just like on December 12, 2000. We all know that the Republicans always had the votes to confirm.

THAT IS NOT THE POINT. The point was to extend the discussion. By extending the discussion, maybe, just maybe some people would have paid attention. Maybe, just maybe some people would have learned something. Maybe, just maybe standing together as Dems would have serve to invigorate the party and set the momentum for the mid year election.

Maybe.

But now, all you have is a busted party with a lot of disillusioned people. You cannot win elections in this way.

[JohnnyCougar]

78. It was too late to extend the discussion.

The public was against a filibuster.

If you want a better justice, get a Democrat elected president.

[fooj]

116. Look JohnnyCougar...WE DID GET A DEMOCRAT ELECTED!

Where the hell have you been?

[JanMichael]

46. It's hard work...The prez sez so himself. Hard work is hard.

Therefore hard work, being hard and such, should be hard thus hard and not done.

[mzmolly]

50. Still digesting it all. Thanks for another view.

:hi:

[adduco]

53. bullshit

[Cascadian]

61. You guys just don't get it, do you?

All of this rationalizing and just playing it cool simply won't work anymore. Those 19 Democrats have betrayed us all! This was the last damn straw and it is time to go to work to throw all of the Quisling Democrats out of office and replace them with a new team of Democrats passionate enough to fight the Neocons. Today secured Alito's entry into the Supreme Court and there goes ALL or our rights and freedoms. Hello? Wake the hell up!


John

[cascadiance]

64. They thought they would lose more from "moderates" if they fillibustered!

WRONG! What is showing here is the COST of betraying the Democratic Party. They made their choice. They can no longer take us for granted! We are NOT putting up with this crap any more!

[wiggs]

122. Any position our dem leaders take could have been a positive

Any position our dem leaders take can either be framed in a positive way or they can let pugs frame it their way. It's not the position, it's the reasons and the follow up, sadly. God knows the GOP has been successfully spinning outrageous policy positions and misdeeds for five years.

I therefore don't buy that dems had to be careful politically in order to be electable or to avoid being seen as "out of the mainstream". That's an excuse. They could have done anything they wanted, including the right thing, if they defended it properly and vigorously. Indeed dems have all the issues on their side and almost none of the positive perception.

If they had all filibustered and talked as a group about five years of secrecy, mismanagement, power abuse, corporatism, and incompetency and how this judge will not stand against those misdeeds, then this could have been a turning point. Instead, this is all about mainstream though drowning out a few wild eyed fringe dems trying to derail a nomination for political reasons.

[Iowa]

67. Excuses, excuses, excuses...

And all of it is a load of crap. There are NO excuses for helping to grease the skids for this fascist's elevation to the Supreme Court. None. Alito is a sworn enemy of the little guy. There is no greater threat that could be posed to our lifestyle and to our liberty. ANY Senator who failed to throw his body down in front of this abomination is no Democrat, and no friend of the common person - period.

[ChipsAhoy]

79. True, no room for sugar-coating BS

Alito is in there for LIFE because, as a group, we allowed it. Sickening.

Someone mentioned tonight that everyone who didn't vote for Kerry in 2004 - is to blame for what the future holds for us with Alito on the bench for LIFE. ugghh

[Cascadian]

83. I voted for Kerry in 04!

I just wished he would have not fallen like a house of cards right after the election. He should have fought Bush! Especially after the debacle in Ohio.


John

[ChipsAhoy]

124. Good, John

I did too. So you and I are not to blame - neither are the millions who voted correctly.

The rest can kiss my ruby red azzz. (my version of cussing)

[kid a]

76. ok - today was just hunky dory!!!

NOT

[upi402]

80. wake up

[Cha]

82. Those are stupid laws..

letting a president(sic) appoint a justice for life and stacking the courts with fascists..STUPID STUPID STUPID!

I hope it comes back to bite them in their collective FASCIST ASS!

[JohnnyCougar]

84. Stupid, yet they are the laws all the same.

If you oppose people like Alito so bad, then work to get Democrats elected so that future Alitos won't even be nominated.

[Cha]

89. Yeah, I know..I've

been working for five years and not about to stop now.

[fooj]

118. Laws? Didn't you get the memo?

We don't have no stinkin' laws...at least not for SOME people.

Peace.

[lyonn]

125. Bottom line

The democrats need to vote like a democrat. They run saying all the right things to get elected and then vote for the repub way. How does that happen?

[FogerRox]

94. you mention Harry-- Who started the Filibuster move?

I thought it was Kerry-----

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. How about we defeat VichyDem nominees like Reid?

Then we may have a real progressive party instead of the "not as bad as the Republcan Party" full of panderers and turncoats.

[BigYawn]

106. I agree 100%, in fact 2 days ago started a similar thread...eom

[Dr Fate]

129. But you secretly hoped DEMS would somehow pull it off.

Didnt you?

[kevinbgoode]

113. The public might have supported it

if there had been some public campaign.

[fooj]

120. Ok. We've had since WEDNESDAY...

Doesn't allow for lots of preparation, does it?

[kevinbgoode]

134. How long did it take the christo-fascists, who aren't elected

to kill the nomination of Harriett Miers? They managed to get her to remove herself from the nomination and we couldn't even get our ELECTED senators to support blocking Alito. We had more time than just last Wednesday - that campaign should have started the moment his butt was named.

Most people are not going to relate to this, but my BIGGEST anger about this nomination was that he was preapproved by unelected special interest groups with a history of attacking minorities and women in this country. If they can derail one nominee before the first hearing, why the hell couldn't we get Alito on the target? Because we waited for sloppy committee hearings full of teary-eyed drama and stealth bullshit - and then we trusted the same people who performed rather badly at the hearings to mount a real obstacle?

The Christo-fascists had no problem mounting their campaign.

[fooj]

145. I hear you.

Really, I do.

Peace.

[upi402]

115. Cut their losses and cut our throats

"About 10 Dem senators decided to cut their losses and vote for cloture."
and cut our throats.
FUCK THOSE TRAITORS!!!

WHORES

[rhett o rick]

119. I disagree 100%. Some Demo Senators are traitors to our cause.

Democracy is like a sausage. Every small slice the Republicans take is in itself small and may not seem worth fighting for. But one day we will end up with only the string. Approx 18 Demo Senators voted for Alito today. There is no excuse. NONE. We aren't dead yet but this was a huge blow. We brought out all the guns and couldn't convince 18 Senators of our own Party. To survive we need to let them (those in the Party that take us for granted) that we will not tolerate traitors. They are no better than republicans, maybe worse 'cause they claim to be Democrats and they ain't. We did learn who are friends are and they ain't the traitor 18. We have to defeat them before we can think about defeating the fascists.

[upi402]

130. FUCK DINO's

god I'm fed up with this shit.
DINO apologists just STFU and get in the back of the line.

Pansie ass shit for brains dumasses.
Thanks a lot.

[rhett o rick]

121. "Filibustering... is very difficult" you say. Yes, but it starts with a n

vote for cloture. Why did Democrats vote to end debate. They could have let it go on for at least a day. But no, that would embarrass our supreme leader, the imperial executive.

[fooj]

132. They didn't think it in their best interests to debate.

Don't want to piss off Little Lord Pissypants! To hell with the rest of the citizens in this country.

Peace.

[Dr Fate]

128. They voted "yes" but could have voted "no." Why is that "difficult?"

Much less "very difficult?"

I'm done with excuses. I'm doing POSITIVE things for tough, ass-kicking DEMS.

The boot-lickers and excuse makers can do whatever it is they do without me. I'm apparently nothing to them, so they are dead to me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

135. The VichyDems betrayed the country - again.

[upi402]

137. ooh, good label, very apt

[fujiyama]

138. SOME dems did betray us

But the 25 that stood with us and deserve credit. John Kerry lived up to his word today when he said he would have our back. He showed how different things would have been had he been president. He has my undying respect.

As for those that actually voted FOR cloture, fuck them. They showed that they cynically viewed this as 'just another vote'. I don't have any respect for them. I really wonder if they understand how important this vote really was.

[Justice Is Comin]

139. Bullshit, I'm tired of leaders who

always enable the carrot on the stick. Keeping the carrot on a stick means you never get the carrot. That's how they get Greyhounds to go around the track. They never realize they're doing it for others amusement. No brain.

Did Bush start an illegal war, did he spend us into fucking 1929 again, is he breaking every law he has time for? Is he still president?

Fuck the wimps today and the money wanters tomorrow. If they don't think Kennedy and Kerry fighting for two hundred years of American values that are in the hands of the Nazi's now, they can find the nearest cliff and fall off.

[ChipsAhoy]

150. Tired and Dismayed

I was so upset going to bed last night - today feels just like yesterday.

PS - I like your spirit.

[traitorsinDC]

141. I agree

You're right. I think we did well, considering what we were up against. We've just got to fight hard to win back the Senate and the House this year. That way if Stephens or one of the others retire, we can keep Bush from putting another conservative on the court. It will be a lot easier to block one of his appointments.

[thatsrightimirish]

142. Yes a fillibuster is hard to pull off

But I do think for a lot of Senators this is the last straw such as Lieberman.

[expatriot]

144. It is about standing up for what you believe in.

It is about standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow Democrats and saying, if you are going to take us down you will have to take us all down.


Of course they wouldn't have been able to stop the nomination but they could have perhaps made it harder to get cloture.

You say that they "cut their losses." What does that mean? What would they have lost if they would have supported the filibuster? It is not like you are given a limited number of no votes. The only thing they lost was their integrity by caving in.

[farmboxer]

146. Progress was made. Repubs are, by far, much worse that Dems

and I do mean, by far! I will never vote for a damned Repuke! Those bastards have just about destroyed this country. I do not like some Dems, but those who betrayed us are still the lesser of the two evils, plus, the good guys need the numbers to get control of the two houses. I see a grass roots movement that will surprise a lot of people. There are thousands who have no hope and need to find this site. I tell people about this site every chance I get. Most of those who are in the dark still hate Bush! DU gives them support to go ahead and fight, whereas before, they felt somewhat alone, which is the way I feld right after the coup of 2000! We have had 3 rigged elections. Dean is doing a good job for change. Whatever, this is the site I have always supported and will sent in my yearly donation soon. Thank you everyone for such hard work.

[DarkTirade]

147. The only real hope was

that the republicans who were starting to try to seperate themselves from Bush would join in.

[M155Y_A1CH]

151. Agreed

I'm in your camp. :hi:

K&R

[LynneSin]

152. I'm recommending every one of these threads

I'm a democrat and I'm proud.

:hug:

Thanks for making me realize that we're not all doom and gloom!

[Blue_Roses]

153. well said!

Thank-you!:applause:

[debbierlus]

155. No. The dems betrayed us.

They betrayed us when they allowed two elections to be stolen away from the American people.

And, they have betrayed us the same way now.

This was a monumental battle.

Public opinion is INCREDIBLY fickle. Most Americans don't even know who Alito is....No one was going to go to the polls in November and say...Oh man, I lost my job, I don't have any insurance, and the bank is about to foreclose on my mortgage. Bush has been a real disaster, and the Republicans who follow in lock step. But, man, those dems filibustered that judge last January. Better vote Republican.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

Look at what Bush rides out - look at how they just wait for the news cycle to pass.

Democrats are strategically STUPID. This could have been a HUGE coup for them.

It would have shown that they could act as an opposition party.

It would have shown that they stand for something different then the Republicans.

It would have shown courage.

It would have changed the media tide.

It would have bitch-slapped Bush.

There is NO excuse in the world for this...NONE. Harry Reid was PATHETIC on this one. He may be a nice man and a decent man, but he is a utter WET NOODLE when it comes to leading the democratic party. This fight was ours to lose.

I am not leaving the democratic party as a whole, but I am no longer giving my money or my time except to individual progressive canidates who have some strength, conviction, and courage.

It would be easy to subscribe to your comforting words. But, they are simply not accurate. And, I, unlike Republicans, refuse to drink the Kool-Aid.

[Skidmore]

158. They betrayed America, particularly those last 4.

[Kire]

159. K&R nt