I've been trying to figure out how to say this. Bear with me.

[helderheid]

Many of us have been fighting for free and fair elections and have been aware of election fraud, especially via the electronic voting machines, for some time now. I remember during the primary having the chance to stand up at an event and ask Congressman Dennis Kucinich about the electronic voting machines. That was 3 years ago.

Many of us have been screaming about this, sending LTTEs, sharing information over the internet, for years. At first, we were called conspiracy theorists. I cannot count how many times the term "sour grapes" was thrown around, but as time went on, there was less nastyness and more concern. It's no longer some crazy idea, but a sad and frightening reality.

Finally, we have some press between people like Lou Dobbs, the HBO documentary, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewert, Bill Maher, and yes, even the movie "Man of the Year" was an important one for waking people up to the notion that perhaps that rotten smell is in fact coming from the electronic voting machines.

I was ecstatic to finally see this coming to light, however some here have pointed out that it may actually encourage people not to vote. I honestly hadn't thought about that and after considering it, I too believe that is a valid concern, but I do want to make another point. Had this information not gotten out, we'd still have stolen elections. At the least now, people know what we're dealing with. Those of us not in power are not alone - there are some in power who DO care. Representative Kucinich is one of them, as are all those working with Progressive Democrats of America.

The more people who know about this the better - it's up to us to guide them the rest of the way. It's up to us to say, GO OUT AND VOTE ANYWAY. We need the exit polls to scream fraud. Next step, we need you to join groups like www.pdamerica.org , www.velvetrevolution.us , www.blackboxvoting.com , http://verifiedvoting.org , www.votetrustusa.org , and www.votersunite.org. We need to get this information to our local election officials. We need to demand change.

We now have an opportunity to empower the masses who are just waking up to this reality. We have wonderful tools at our disposal. Please don't give up now.

[acmavm]

1. The more people that vote, the harder it will be, maybe even

impossible, to steal this one. And a whole hell of a lot of Americans understand that fact. And they will also go to the polls out of anger. And then there are those that will go because, like me, they feel it is their duty to their country to do so.

It's hard to grasp this fact but you know, some Americans can think for themselves. They don't need the talking heads here on DU to give them every single bit of intelligence needed to make an informed decision. (I am NOT referring to you by the way.) People will still go to the polls. People will still vote. They are fired up. Angy. Fed up.

[tavalon]

17. There is a consistant meme

That if more people vote it will be harder to steal the elections. I'm not sure that is correct. To a machine, it is just as easy to steal a million as to steal ten votes and without reliable ways of verifying the actual votes, I think it is perfectly doable to swing an election by a few percentages or by thirty or forty percentage points.

Am I wrong in this?

[acmavm]

19. OK, cool. Have it your way. Hey everybody, don't go vote. It's

hopeless. It's a given that it's already stolen.

Another Doom and Gloom Salesman has decided that it's gonna be a waste of time.

[tavalon]

23. No, that wasn't my point at all

I do want people to vote. I just want to have the discussion around why people think that the machines can only steal so much of the vote.

Honestly, there has been too much publicity around how badly the Republicans are going to get routed. They wouldn't dare do it now. But in the future.........

I don't like the way you just decided to close down the conversation by accusing me of being doom and gloom. It isn't helpful to either one of us and it misrepresents me and I would expound at length on that topic except it's getting late enough in the morning that I need to start my daily phone banking and I want to finish the brochures I'm going to be leaving on peoples cars at the two churches nearby. Oh, and I definitely won't have any time to discuss this on Tuesday. Too frickin' busy that day between my own voting and driving people to the polls. Get it?

Nobody seems willing to discuss this issue. I can't believe I'm the only one to have thought it up. I ain't the only Einstein around here, ya know?



On edit: I just spoke to my partner who explained why everyone is getting so angry at those of us who bring these issues up. Even if these are valid questions (and they are) my timing sucks. I need to wait until next Wednesday to ask these things because even if we figure out long term solutions today, there isn't shit that can be implemented before Tuesday so to even ask for the discussion is misconstrued as hopelessness. I think I see that now. So, I will hold off asking these burning questions until next Wednesday. They will be just as burning then.

[Blackthorn]

40. I was just thinking that point this morning

If the machines are set up to flip every third Dem vote to Repub, then it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT how many people vote because a third will always be a third. 1/3 of 1,000 is the same proportion as 1/3 of a billion.

Please, someone, explain how more voters negates the software flipping every third vote to R.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

44. kick! he, he, he,

[pberq]

63. exit polls could have an effect

Suppose it was a landslide for Dems according to the exit polls, and then the machines give it to the Repubs - this may give more evidence of fraud.

[AndyTiedye]

74. Then They Just FIX THE EXIT POLLS After the Fact, Just Like 2004

[Jo March]

37. But in that scenario, it would be harder to fool the voters

That is the difference. If the election is close and the votes are stolen, then voters will never really know if the votes were stolen or if, truly, a few more pub votes made the difference.

If the polls are showing significant leads for one side and all of the sudden on 11/8, the "polled" loser wins by a nice, wide margin, then voters have to know that something is fishy.

GOTV is one of the best ways to prevent close races. Oversight from the rest of us will help stop shenanigans. Reporting what we see helps as well. Getting the election results, precinct by precint, and comparing them to registered voters (like many here did in 2004) is another way to catch election theft.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

45. that's it in a nutshell, arnheim

"That is the difference. If the election is close and the votes are stolen, then voters will never really know if the votes were stolen or if, truly, a few more pub votes made the difference.

If the polls are showing significant leads for one side and all of the sudden on 11/8, the "polled" loser wins by a nice, wide margin, then voters have to know that something is fishy."

[Jo March]

73. just wish I'd used spell check

LOL :crazy:

[melody]

66. If there are lines wrapped around the building like a new Star Trek movie is opening

It will be VERY hard to "explain away".

Yes, absolutely voting in huge numbers will make the election harder to steal.

[AndyTiedye]

75. There Were Lines Like That In 2004

[melody]

77. Then we need bigger and longer lines

If they steal this one, it would be a blatantly obvious theft. The House is ours by a wide margin.
The Senate will probably be split, but we'll at least have the House.

[blm]

22. I agree - but we still have to stay vocal about the vote stealing tactics and

never let up the pressure on the issue.

We need to support and empower those Dems who BELIEVE the issue and shut down those Dem voices who REFUSE to believe because it fits their preferred view that the party just needs to move further right to win values voters.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

46. what is good about this OP is that it IS vocal on Diebold but says VOTE ANYWAY

[Emit]

2. Exactly! Flood the Polls!

Exactly...flood the polls and make it harder for them.

The theft of American elections is a media issue
by Andi Novick, Northeast Citizens for Responsible Media
October 31, 2006

The loss of our right to vote (or have it counted) is a media issue which is why you are all getting this email. I've talked a lot about the effects of media ownership consolidation on the destruction of democracy by permitting a few corporations to fail to report the essential information we need to be a self-governing people. Not only does the main stream media refuse to investigate and report on the impossible discrepancies between the 'official' count and the exit polls, but they are actively complicit in this fraud. ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, Fox and the AP own the exit polls and have defied John Conyers' request for the raw data, keeping that data secreted from even qualified independent researchers.

We are all trying to take optimism from the lead democrats have in the polls going into the election. Keep in mind that they had these leads in 2002, when the Republicans got themselves total control, and they had even greater promise going into the 2004 elections. If you are still not convinced of the massive fraud that is going on, you can look at my 'cliff notes' version about the theft, which I wrote thinking people might read a few pages as opposed to an entire book (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/16/2006/1865) .

~snip~

How to fight back?

Firstly, we need the most massive turnout -- some people think if it's high enough we can overcome the level of the theft. Others think it will at least make it more difficult for the Republicans to explain how they somehow won again, even though Americans have never returned, and never would return, such an unpopular, incompetent and corrupt crew to office.

Secondly, we need independent exit polling. Independent exit polls have been used successfully to prevent fraud. See for inspiration, Thom Hartmann's How to Take Back a Stolen Election, ( http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1129-26.htm ) , in which he describes how the elections in post Soviet countries -- where, like here, there was evidence the regime in power was planning to steal the elections and where, like here, the main stream media was either controlled by, beholden to, or owned by supporters of the regime in power -- were saved from the intended theft by the use of independent exit polls. If the Ukrainians can do it, why not us?

http://freepress.org/departments/display/16/2006/2205

[helderheid]

3. Thanks for the links - exit polling will be crucial

Zogby new something wasn't right in 2004.

[tavalon]

18. How does this make it harder for them?

I'm not being persnickity. I'm just unsure that the machines have any difficulty flipping as many votes as are needed to get the "correct" outcome. I'm hoping there is something I'm missing here.

[helderheid]

20. I agree with you - it does, however, make it harder to explain when

the exit polls show 10 point+ leads for the Dems and the Rs "win"

[tavalon]

24. Yeah

I totally agree on that point which is why I'm horrified that the exit polling groups are deciding that exit polls that don't match the totals mean the exit polls are wrong rather than the totals.

It's been bothering me for some time that people seem to be acting as though the machines can only steal a certain amount of votes when it seems to me that they can steal and or manufacture an almost unlimited amount of votes. But, as I mentioned to another posters response to me, I can see that I need to bring up this and other issues around the machines next Wednesday when it won't be misconstrued. I can wait.

[helderheid]

26. I've had a fear about that as well. We NEED those exit polls.

When they said the ones in 2004 were wrong, I was terrified they'd get rid of them.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

54. K&R, it's called a force of one!

[helderheid]

69. Thanks for the K and the R but apparently the mods removed it from the greatest page

:shrug:

[ariellyn]

4. EVoting is only one form of disenfranchisement--that's my problem

I am happy that the news about fraud is more widespread but I think that focusing on evoting alone allows the same thieves who introduced evote fraud to continue to use tactics such as non working machines, too few machines, fake voter registration, long lines, fake threat letters to immigrants and those with police records, and contested votes as ways to steal elections. These tactics will prevail everywhere this Tuesday and in 2008 unless the WHOLE story is told.

[helderheid]

5. The whole story does need to be told, I agree. Evoting is

the easiest way to steal an election, but only one component.

[EFerrari]

15. Exactly. So we need to concentrate on those places where

we KNOW they will trot out these tactics - minority and student and low income precincts.

You are exactly right.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

55. it looks like a long night. I guess I better brew some coffee. how about another vote?

[Jeffersons Ghost]

60. kick

[yellowdogmi]

6. I also hope that our side does not stay

home because of some sense of fatalistic doom. If their side stays home because they believe the fix is in so be it. I also watched the HBO hack the democracy video. I guess I am much more militant. I believe that we missed a chance to make black box voting an issue. We should have jumped up and down, screamed and yelled demanding a Presidential mandate that the polls would be open until all the votes are casts. Then the word needed to go out about a brilliant little device know as an automatic punch. This is a spring loaded device that is used to score metal for drilling. Experts have suggested to keep one of these in your glove box to break car windows in the case of emergency. I say voters in districts with black boxes carry one and deal with any machine that appears to be malfunctioning. Of course I this may get you in trouble with local election officials. I am not giving up. I am going to get even.

[EFerrari]

11. There are plenty of precincts in Chicago where you could go

to monitor for bullshit. Go there and make it harder for them. Slow the f#ckers down. There are many election protection efforts out there. Join one!

[helderheid]

16. Great point!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

56. we're about there DU, let's put it over the top with ONLY 2 more votes!

[asjr]

7. I voted. I don't know if it will be counted.

[helderheid]

9. Please follow up by joining the groups I listed

www.pdamerica.org , www.velvetrevolution.us , www.blackboxvoting.com , http://verifiedvoting.org , www.votetrustusa.org , and www.votersunite.org

[Jeffersons Ghost]

57. kick one more vote folks, we're about to the top

[EFerrari]

8. The point is, we ARE the majority. We HAVE the numbers.

We have to vote like tigers, not like lambs.

GOTV but then, guard it. If your vote was important enough to cast, it's important enough to count.

Go monitor vulnerable precincts! Hook up with one of the orgs that helderheid has in her OP. Even if all you do is stand there and watch for an hour or two, your presence is a message: Steal my vote at your peril!

We know where they try to steal it most of the time. Go THERE and protect the vote.

[helderheid]

21. ABSOLUTELY! And if we want any chance of an investigation, we

need to come out in droves!

[KittyWampus]

10. Helderheid, thanks. You will have your work cut out for you in the next few days

You, other election fraud activists and the rest of us.

Rest up, it's going to be a long fight to get our votes counted this week.

[helderheid]

12. *sigh* I want a vacation...

:P

[EFerrari]

13. I've been googling hotels in Rosarito Beach.

lol

[helderheid]

14. ahhhhh that sounds like heaven! I'll order the margaritas!

:toast:

[Wiley50]

25. Gee! That Looks Great! Wish I could go too!

But someone else would have to spring for the tab of this poor old Democratic Socialist.

Too bad.

[helderheid]

27. sadly, I can't make it either. I'll just have to turn up my heat and

lay a towel on my floor and pretend.

[mopinko]

28. you have to play to win. and you have to do more than vote.

if you do not have a ballot in that box, you are not a voter, you have no standing in court. so, you have to get your dog into the fight.
and you have to do more than drop it in the slot. YOU have to do whatever you can to make sure it is counted. be a judge. (there us still time to do this in a lot of places.) be a pollwatcher. or just be a careful citizen. keep your eyes and ears open when you vote. (if you don't vote, you aren't allowed in the polling place!) make a call if you see anything amiss. you have to check your precinct totals, make sure they are accurate in the canvass. pay attention, and be ready to attend any hearings in your area. be ready to testify.
the real, simple take home message is-
you have to do more than vote. you have to make sure it is counted.

[helderheid]

29. mopinko

:applause:

[mopinko]

33. thanks

helderheid-
:toast: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :applause: :applause:

[leftchick]

30. you know hh I believe I am one of the most cynical of folks on this board

when it comes to clean elections. I was convinced way back in 2000 there was fraud. Then 2002 happened and all of the stuff with Bev Harris. I joined verified voting in my state and worked my butt off to get the machines out of here. I was extremely disappointed at the lack of results here. But one thing I learned is we have to keep voting no matter what. Something soon will happen to expose the rest of the sad story of elections in this country. Very soon because as you have said the masses are waking to the reality.

Cynical old me voted early last week on our ES&S IVotronic machines that at least now have a printer. I would rather have had a paper ballot though. :)

[helderheid]

31. thank you for everything you are doing, leftchick. I voted early too

but on an absentee ballot. Lord knows if it will count or not. At least it was paper and I'm in Utah.

[suston96]

32. Keep fighting...

We will all work together and kill the machines. This election on Tuesday will not go smoothly. I predict that with little or no doubt.

Many of us are comfortable using computers. Most people will be frightened to approach a voting screen and follow what seems like simple instructions to cast their vote.

Sorry, but machines are too scary to use, and we have seen, too easy to hack. That includes the tabulators and the transmission of the vote totals.

[fed-up]

34. k/r n/t

[stepnw1f]

35. helderheid, You Have Done So Much Good Here..

I would never accuse you of pushing folks away from the polls. All you encourage is for folks to get involved in making the voting process fair and free the way Democracy should be!

[yodermon]

36. What exit polls?

Aren't the exit poll raw data owned by the Corp. Media Cartel?
How do we know any exit poll data we see won't have been tainted?
:shrug:

[helderheid]

38. Zogby new something was up in 2004 that didn't pass the smell test

[Seabiscuit]

39. Sadly, it's too late for next Tuesday.

You mention: "Had this information not gotten out, we'd still have stolen elections. At the least now, people know what we're dealing with."

The problem is, we'll still have stolen elections next Tuesday, because these hackable touch-screen machines STILL "count" 80% of the votes in America. Meaning Diebold, et. al. still control 80% of the vote. All they need is less than 1% margin of victory to win any election.

Once again, chances are: repukes in a landslide no matter the "true" vote counts, which will forever be unknowable.

Along with Iraq, this is the most shameful circumstance in the U.S. today. Our elected representative have had 6 years to eliminate this problem and yet it persists as perniciously as ever.

Democracy in America has been dead, dead, deader than a doornail for 6 years now.

[helderheid]

41. Oh I know, but when should this information come out? In time for 2008?

Or should we wait for 2012? Yes, it's too late for 2006. It should have come out after 2002 but it didn't. Time is a wastin' - it needs to come out as soon as we can get it out coupled with a movement to get rid of these machines, but I know I'm preaching to the choir here.

[Seabiscuit]

78. The information's been there for years. Still nothing accomplished.

The machines still rule the country.

[understandinglife]

42. "It's no longer some crazy idea, but a sad and frightening reality."

"We now have an opportunity to empower the masses who are just waking up to this reality. We have wonderful tools at our disposal. Please don't give up now."

I think you have said it as well as anyone possibly could.

Thank you.

Recommended.


NOT ONE LINE OF SOFTWARE BETWEEN A VOTER AND A VALID ELECTION. - 'WE THE PEOPLE ...' MUST WIN IN 2006, TO MAKE THIS A REALITY, FOREVER, IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

[helderheid]

47. Thank you - your reply inspired me - expect a youtube video soon

[understandinglife]

48. Neat. Can't wait!

Truth and Courage Matter.

[helderheid]

49. Here's a hint - I'm thinking we need to read what we write in OPs of great importance

BE the media :)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

43. K&R

[WillyT]

50. K & R !!! - Great Post !!!

:kick::yourock::kick:

[helderheid]

70. Thanks! for some reason it's been removed from the greatest page

:shrug:

[Vidar]

51. Well said, helderheid. Recommended.

[upi402]

52. signed up and donated to all

either previously or now.

votersunite.org is NOT tax deductible. also, it's located in an area represented by Dems but only due to the redistricting. The area itself is called 'the land of Limbaugh' and is a military community. They may be the brave few who deserve and need support.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

53. this OP could stand about 2 more votes readers! we want true blues at DU to vote right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. kick

[FernBell]

59. k&r

[reprehensor]

61. It's better to know.

Everyone should vote, regardless. Document the theft if it's in your face like a vote-flip.

And raise hell at the polling station.

[helderheid]

67. I agree - vote and keep your eyes OPEN.

[goodboy]

62. Of course part of the Repuke grand election theft plan is voter-suppression

a real and sickening side-effect of hacking the vote. Although it's hard for me to say that the pukes intended for this side-effect, noting how incredibly idiotic they really are, I can say that they're more than happy to stay real quiet about it, if it divides people and suppresses the vote...especially in key areas where voters tend to vote democratic.

Low voter turn-out is key to Repuke election theft. The more voters there are, the worse it is for them. So you're absolutely right in saying that we need to encourage people to vote, babysit their kids while they vote, take them to the polls if we can, volunteer to work at the polls observing the election, reporting any Illegal Repuke Activity.

IF YOU HAVE A VIDEO CAMERA, TAKE IT WITH YOU! RECORD ANY SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY! REPORT IT TO YOUR LOCAL MEDIA IMMEDIATELY!

goodboy.

[CrispyQ]

64. My right wing mother sent me an article on electronic voting concerns

and asked me what I think of it. It was something from a liberal site no less. She just forwarded it to me & didn't retrieve it herself, but still! :wow:

Anyway, I think I made progress with her on this issue when I asked her why we had to wait until an election had been irrefutably stolen before we address issues with our electoral process. Then I said, "The question isn't did they steal an election? The question is, why the fuck are we even asking?" It also helped when I explained the outrageous ways they are disenfranchising voters, pointing out it falls under foul play at the very least, if not outright fraud. She was completely clueless about the disenfranchisement part of the issue. Fucking media! :grr:

That approach has opened her mind, on this issue, anyway. Prior to that she was happy with her "just get over it" response.

[helderheid]

65. good on you, CrispyQGirl!! I hope we have such a massive turnout tomorrow

that any wrong doing would be obvious!

:yourock:

[helderheid]

68. How long do posts stay on the greatest page? I posted this yesterday

and it isn't on the greatest page even with 37 recommends. :shrug:

[Richard Steele]

71. Just a day.

And I'm not sure if that means a full 24 hours, or if they all change
at a certain time, or what......

I guess we'll just have to keep it KICKED, eh?

[helderheid]

72. I thought 24 hours ... but whatEVAH! :)

[understandinglife]

76. For this post ... I'd hope they'd keep it on the greatest page until, at least, 8 Nov 2006!

BE AMERICA. ---

[Jeffersons Ghost]

79. kick

[symbolman]

80. If you got to BBVoting. org

Make sure you KEEP YOUR HAND ON YOUR WALLET.

Personally I think people should be WARNED about Bev Harris and her ways. I think it's irresponsible to list her without some kind of DISCLAIMER, considering she was BANISHED and TOMBSTONED from this VERY SITE.

I have no problem with ANY of the other FINE Voting sites mentioned, but BE WARNED that Harris was BANISHED from the DU, and Randi Rhodes was NONE too happy about her the last time she asked her WHY she wasnt' in OHIO.

PLEASE warn people, eh? It's not fair. If you want to talk her movie up, fine, but there's a chance that people who DONATE to her will be cheating other fine sites that in my opinion deserve MORE funding than HERS.

Thanks for your concern for our freedoms, I respect you tremendously, but MANY DO NOT RESPECT HARRIS. A FACT.

THIS ONE SITE May have been the reason for the Greatest page removal, there are sites that the admins and moderators don't allow us to post to, and while I don't want to allude to the admins making a Harris link Go Away as she wants to sue everyone, I just think that it could be, for their safety alone..

Once again, thanks for your concern, and NO people will NOT be driven away, they WILL VOTE and we WILL WIN. :)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

81. kick

[Jeffersons Ghost]

82. kick