YOUR arguments are lacking in logic and evidence, and you seem to think your own sense of moral principle is the only defense you need to sustain your argument. Not so.
For me to address this, please describe the arguments are you referring to.
You believe that impeachment can be stated as an end, as a goal.. .
Please clarify what you mean by "stated as an end." Perhaps it would be helpful if you provided a specific quote that illustrates and describe your objection.
. . without first going through the process of hearings.
Correct. Hearings are most likely to be part of the process, but the goal of removal from office could be achieved without them as described below.
You insist that draft articles of impeachment that people like Ramsey Clark (whom I like and admire) have validity without those hearings.
In this thread, the only accusation I referred to is the one Feingold made in his censure resolution. In other threads I have cited those put forth by the Center for Constitutional Rights. I have also cited evidence presented in Hoodwinked by John Prados (a National Security Archives Research Fellow at GWU).
The "out and shut" case that I describe is expressed in the terms that one would use in a public statement. These are summary charges of a valid case that members of Congress could structure into specific Articles that are as simple or as complex and detailed as they deem necessary.
I have never cited or even read Ramsey Clark's.
You completely and fundamentally DO NOT UNDERSTAND the principle of impeachment, and the process involved in getting to the point where articles can be drawn up and voted upon. That you do not see the flaw in suggesting that any of our representatives can just stand up and say "we plan to impeach Bush" demonstrates a woeful lack of knowledge on your part.
I have never provided an example in which a member would say "We plan to impeach Bush."
The most frequent example I use goes something like this:
- Accuse, e.g., "Bush and Cheney are subverting the Constitution by doing X";
- Describe action required to remove the threat and declare intent, e.g., "To rescue the Constitution, I am taking up the fight to see them impeached and removed from office";
- Effort to enlist support, e.g., "I call on my colleagues to join me."
Feingold stood up and unequivocally communicated the simple truth -- Bush is violating the Constitution (accused). Feingold called on Bush to acknowledge this and bring his criminal surveillance program within the law (described action to remove the threat available to him as a Senator). To that end he introduced his censure resolution and called on his colleagues to support it (declared intent, carried it out by introducing the resolution, and called on his colleagues to join him).
There are many ways that a member of the House can similarly call on their colleagues to take up the fight for impeachment and to cite grounds. Feingold's are sufficient. There are additional legitimate accusations, particularly since the Hamdan ruling.
They all have mouths. A member can make public statements. A member can introduce a resolution recommending Articles. A member could introduce a resolution calling on the President to resign if they choose. When I say "stand up and ask their colleagues to take up the fight", these are the types of actions I am referring to.
One more time: it does not work that way.
For me to address this, please cite an action in my posts that is outside the realm of possibility.
Nor should it. A "prima facie" case is irrelevant, and cannot apply here. What you refer to (inaccurately) as prima facie evidence . . .
Impeachment is a political process in that the steps to drafting articles and the nature and content of the Articles is up the House -- and the public their represent -- to define through political processes. They could make precisely the type of case I have described as part of that process.
The validity of the case I outline is not affected by the accuracy or inaccuracy of the label. It has no bearing on my arguments if a "prima facie" case as you define it "does not apply here," but for informational purposes, please provide your definition of "prima facie" and why it would not apply.
. . .CAN be used to call for hearings, and we go from there (much like a prosecutor uses such evidence to get an indictment from a grand jury; that's only the beginning). Until you can grasp that, there is no point in debating you at all.
If the case I offer "CAN be used to call for hearings" then we are in agreement. Please clarify your objection.
With regard to what constitutes "a beginning," to have any sort of meaningful discussion, basic assumptions need to be established.
Here are my assumptions.
- "The process" has a goal: Removal from office is the endpoint of the process.
- There is no fixed set of steps to achieving the goal.
- "The process" currently underway has already begun in the "court of public opinion."
- There are various ways "the process" can be advanced by citizens or members of Congress. For example, a public statement from a member of Congress in and of itself can advance the process.
It follows from the above assumptions that the political processes of gaining support in the public and within Congress can play out in infinite different ways.
You point out that Articles of Impeachment are roughly equivalent to an indictment so I'll go with that comparison to illustrate how these assumptions apply.
- When violations of criminal code have been committed the goal is to sentence.
- There is no fixed set of steps to that goal. For example, even before a formal investigation starts, the threat of investigation alone can result in a confession that leads to a sentence or the act of convening a grand jury can be enough to force a deal for a sentence.
- All the steps from investigation, indictment, trial, verdict, to sentence may be necessary, but the suspect has choices and can jump to the end at any point. It is impossible to know in advance how far you will need to go. There are always unknowns and surprises. For example, there may be consequences the suspect is desperate to avoid that nobody but the suspect is aware of.
Like the process from accusation to sentence in criminal law, there are many different paths that can lead to the goal of impeachment (i.e., removal). It is impossible to know in advance how far the process will need go. It could be ended at any time if they "confess" by resigning.
For example, relentless debate about whether or not their crimes are crimes "out here" could do it. Or it could take months of hearings. A "deal" could be made like the one described in
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2458812#2469259">post #127.
There are parts of the process that must conform to Constitutional dictates and Congressional rules, but those parts do not define the entirety of "the process" and may or may not be necessary to achieve the goal.
This brings me to my most basic assumption: no human is omniscient; no human can predict how things will unfold at each juncture; no human can predict every step, every reaction.
You will continue to feel morally justified in what you believe, but your belief is nothing but fantasy.
None of my responses in the post to this point invoke moral justification. For me to address your assertion, you will need to identify the actions or possibilities I have described in previous posts that you classify as "fantasy."
To turn attention to the moral principles I do assert in previous posts, the most basic is a straightforward one. I state it in various ways but it is essentially: "When we have a duty to act, we must act, or be derelict in that duty."
With regard the duties that members of Congress are charged with, here is a point-by-point breakdown. I have numbered the points to facilitate discussion by making it easier to identify the points you (or any other reader of this post) may take issue with.
- When they took the Congressional oath members of Congress took upon themselves the duty to defend the Constitution -- i.e., the duty to defend against external threats and the duty to defend against threats from within, which includes defending against criminal activities or abuses of power by officials in the judiciary or executive branch that threaten the Constitution. To carry out this latter duty, they must be "on the look out" for such threats.
- When members of congress become aware of charges that a civil official poses a threat to the Constitution, they have a duty to act to determine whether or not the threat is real and warrants defensive action. (i.e., If they do not pass judgment on the threat and the Constitution is in fact being subverted, they are failing in their duty to defend it).
- The oath is an individual oath, the duty an individual duty.
- Although the duty to pass judgment on potential threats is an individual duty, an individual member may or may not be directly involved in carrying it out. The only thing that matters is that the duty to pass judgment on the potential threat and take defensive action is fulfilled. If Congressional action is being taken (e.g., the duty delegated to a committee), members still have a personal duty -- they must decide if they are satisfied with the conclusions and actions being taken. If they are not satisfied, they must determine what to do about it.
- If the duty is not being carried out by Congress as a body, it falls to the individual. Whether they are judging the threat for themselves, or determining whether or not to accept the judgments of others, each member must make a personal decision based on the information at hand and their understanding of the intent of the law.
- The duty to be "on the look out" for threats and pass judgment on them can be broken down in the following components. The components apply whether they are being carried out by Congress as a body, by a group of members, of by an individual member.
- Accusation -- Specific charges that a public official is violating their oath of office, subverting the Constitution, or abusing the power of their office for personal gain that is destructive to the public interest. Such charges can be conveyed to members of Congress by a variety of sources, for example whistleblowers, watchdog organizations, or ordinary citizens.
- Investigation -- identifying what members of Congress need to judge the charges and taking steps to obtain the information. If a member knows all they need to know, they need to move forward. If colleagues need more, a member should not refrain from making their own conclusions public. They advance the process by telling the truth as they see it.
- Evaluation-- considering the evidence and the arguments.
- Conclusion -- Judge the threat/subversion/abuse to be real or baseless. Identify the arguments and evidence the judgment is based on. If the threat is real define the action that will eliminate the threat. (e.g., removal from office).
- Communication -- Reporting the conclusion via public statement, report, resolution, or some other mechanism.
- If the threat is judged to be baseless, the duty is fulfilled. If removal from office or some other Congressional action is required to eliminate the threat, their duty includes:
- Assessment -- Determine current levels of support (or lack thereof) for initiating the necessary Congressional action (e.g., impeachment inquiry). Define intermediate goals and possible means by which the goals can be accomplished. The goals will be situation dependent but could involve making the case to the public, public and media events and appearances, efforts to enlist the support of fellow members, efforts to enlist the public and outside organizations in lobbying efforts, and so on.
The next steps taken to advance toward the ultimate goal come out of the assessment. As long the process is moving toward the end point required to eliminate the threat to the constitution, members are doing their duty.
The situation today with regard to the serious charges that Bush and Cheney are usurping Unconstitutional power and are abusing the power of their office to violate federal statutes and international law:
- Specific cases and arguments have been developed and presented to members of Congress by a variety of public interest organizations and individuals.
- The Congressional duty to judge whether or not the charges of abuse and criminal violation of the constitution pose a danger to the Constitution that requires the defensive action of removing them from office is not being carried out.
The current status of members with regard to their Congressional duty:
- Many of the Republican members have made their judgment and have made public statements dismissing the charges as illegitimate. Few have reported the basis of their conclusion -- valid or otherwise.
Although they have failed to support their conclusions with evidence and law, if they made an honest, personal judgment, based on their best understanding of the law and the available evidence, they are done. If they honestly believe the Constitution isn't under attack no further action is required of them unless something causes them to question their judgment (e.g., public pressure).
- Conyers and the members who joined him in his efforts have been taking visible steps to carry out their duty. They initiated investigations, evaluated the available information, reported their conclusions, recommended next steps, and introduced resolutions to acquire additional information from the WH and initiate further investigation.
Recently Rep. Conyers stepped away from his duty when he echoed the "company line" (have better things to do). The duty to defend the Constitution cannot be fulfilled if the mechanism by which a threat would be eliminated is "off the table." He is currently derelict in his duty and will be until he makes it clear that he (1) intends to carry out his duty to pass judgment on the charges and (2) intends to take steps to see that Articles of Impeachment are drafted and presented to the Senate if he concludes that removal from office is necessary to remove the threat.
- A vast majority of the Democratic caucus are taking no visible steps to fulfill their duty to judge the charges against Bush and Cheney. They have made vague and inconclusive statements regarding the charges and have failed to commit to the steps required to come to a conclusion. These members are currently derelict in their duty.
- Nancy Pelosi and others have made an unequivocal "Impeachment is off the table" pledge. With that pledge, they are declaring their intention NOT to act. Until she makes a new declaration we must assume she means what she said and has no intention of taking any visible steps to either determine the validity of the charges or remove Bush and Cheney from office. At least for the moment, she has chosen dereliction of duty.