Hitler killed 20 million people.....war chimp: not even a million (yet)..

[Webster Green]

So let's give the poor guy a break and stop with all these Hitler/chimp comparisons, mmmkay?

He's not even close.

Although, if he starts a couple more wars (maybe lobs some nukes), he might catch up.

[Lerkfish]

1. I reject your premise

that only if body counts are exactly congruent, we cannot draw parrellels to tactics and strategy between the two.

The dead body equivalency fallacy is really getting old.

[Malikshah]

2. Right you are. When you start comparing body counts...

all you get are more bodies.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. Okay...this is productive

So what are the terms of the comparison.

You say strategy and tactics. Can you be more specific?

[Lerkfish]

7. there are a lot of things that can be compared:

the reliance on Rove, Goebbels as architects of manipulation
propaganda and control of the media
Reichstag fire/ 911
the desire for world hegemony
the demonizing of dissent
the imprisoning of persons without trial in secret prisons where they are tortured.


there are a great many things that can and should be compared. The problem is, whenever valid comparisons are made, someone comes in like the OP and says "you can't compare them because they didn't kill the same amount of people" which is beside the point. The point is are we going to remember what has been done before in prewar Germany and other fascist nations, and learn from it, or shy away because of some stupid Godwin's law?

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. I'd like to see each of those worked out in some detail

My problem isn't that Hitler killed many more people. It is, rather, that such comparisons are generally dubious because the context has changed, and one has to strip specific events from their contexts to make such comparisons. In other words, such comparisons seem like remarkably ahistorical operations masquerading as historical knowledge (learning something from history, is how its usually phrased). Obviously, any such comparisons require some decontextualization, sure. It's one of the reasons I find such comparisons reductive unless one can demonstrate some underlying principle of consistency.

As it stands, I don't think we understand enough about even mid-20th century fascism to make such comparisons (much less early-21th century neo-imperialism). The more productive task, in my view, is really working out the details of what's happening today, both theoretically and emprically. The whole Hitler comparison thing seems like a rather tawdry rhetorical operation - tawdry because it doesn't even win any converts, but simply fires up those who already believe it (and barely that). I don't see its value.

[Lerkfish]

22. fine, then don't make the comparison if it offends you so deeply

but I reject out of hand that we cannot learn from history.

you're allowed to refuse to learn from history as you like.

[alcibiades_mystery]

27. Mrrrrr-eeeeow!

OK. I guess all reasonable discussion on this matter has now been officially closed in a frenzy of exaggerations and strawman arguments.

Salud!

[mmonk]

38. My father was a WW II vet, and I studied the rise

of Hitler (trying to figure out how it happened). I came to the conclusion that if someone wanted to seize power and change laws, they could do it through an emergency perceived + fear + nationalism. There are enough similiarities to bother me. But it's not in comparing so much bush and Hitler as it is the similarities I'm finding in the German people of the 30's and Americans today.

[Bad Penny]

43. I hope while we're working out the theoretic and empiric details

and deciding whether bush is evil and destructive on a par with mid 20th century fascists or not, we come to a conclusion based on all the data and opinions put forth by analytical minds that he's a destructive fucking fascist before his thugs kick the door of our fucking debating society in

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. Look, you got so excited you couldn't even finish a sentence

My goodness gracious. Such red-faced huffing and puffing is sure to convert to unconverted. keep it up! It's effective!

If the conclusion is already there, then it matters little what we think, yes?

It's nice to know that requests to actually examine the thing at issue can be easily dismissed as a "debating society." As far as I know, DU is precisely a "debating society" of kind, with perhaps a bit of activist network thrown in. But don't let me disturb your ranting. It's obviously very satisfying. For you.

[Bad Penny]

49. yeah ok

Bush has pissed all over the ripped up pieces of the constitution, has invaded a country innocent of 911, and is threatening to invade/bomb/nuke more. Maybe if we just keep talking about him and analyzing him he'll stop.

good luck with that

[alcibiades_mystery]

50. As opposed to the brilliant strategy of alienating

everyone but those who already agree with you, looking like a lunatic, and posting funny little pictures.

You really have them on the ropes now, Action Girl!

[Bad Penny]

51. I have a hairy chest and a beard

better get back to your research on mid 20th century fascism. You might find a correlation to bush in about 4 seconds if you, you know, put your mind to it

[alcibiades_mystery]

52. Oh, my bad

Action Boy.

You might try a bit of research yourself. I know it's harder than the usual emotional outpouring, but everything worthwhile is.

Or, have fun changing the world with ranting. Good luck with that.

[Bad Penny]

53. be careful about checking 'Fascism for Dummies' out of the library

I hear the neocons are starting to keep track

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. If I thought you knew the first thing about fascism

I'd just ask you.

Of course, the neo-cons are watching you, too, so whatever shall I do???

[texasleo]

11. It's better to day that our men and women in uniform are nazis

much easier.

;)

[Webster Green]

18. No, they aren't, but their Commander-In-Chimp is a fascist..

They are following orders, but many are starting to figure out how fucked up the orders are.

[stepnw1f]

32. DIng, Ding, Ding!!! (nt)

[Blackthorn]

39. Here here.

[Hubert Flottz]

4. He's just waiting till after November now...

Everything is in place now, with his new legal powers!

[lpbk2713]

5. Hitler succesfully deceived and bullied in order to get his way

"Successfully" is the key word here.


So far we have not allowed this to happen. Hell no, let's not give him a break.

[jus_the_facts]

6. He's got a couple more years to expound on that number....

.....the similarities are uncanny regardless....PNAC..the Pentagon and the Military Industrial Complex are in control not *ush. :evilfrown:

[glitch]

8. And how many had Hitler killed 6 years into his reign?

Didn't he become Chancellor in 1933 and didn't the Holocaust begin in 1939?

"Between 1939 and 1945 the SS, assisted by collaborationist governments and recruits from occupied countries, systematically killed about 11 million people, including about 6 million Jews<12>, in concentration camps, ghettos and mass executions, or through less systematic methods elsewhere."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#The_Holocaust

How does shock and awe Iraq compare with Guernica, Spain?

Hell, he didn't even annex Austria until 5 years in.

Looks like baby bush may be slightly ahead at this point.

[wryter2000]

9. I feel so ashamed of myself

Until he's killed as many people as Hitler, he's actually not such a bad guy. :sarcasm:

[Benhurst]

26. But he is hundreds of thousands times worse than

Charles Manson.

[wryter2000]

28. LMAO!

:rofl: :yourock:

[Benhurst]

35. ...

:hi:

[chicagolefty]

12. He many not be another Hitler

But he is our own home grown mad man with a huge Army that likes to threaten the world. Just look at what this nut has done with NK. He's got us on the brink of ANOTHER war...

He may not have killed 20 million people, but he certainly has displayed a complete disregard for human life and diplomacy.

It doesn't matter what we think of him, it's the rest of the world that currently compares us to Nazi Germany. That's what we should be concerned with. If our allies become former allies and build alliances against us, then we'll be screwed... and that's exactly what's starting to happen.

[wryter2000]

31. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

13. USA! USA! Not as bad as Hitler! RAHRAHRAH!! Sheesh. Genius.

[Webster Green]

16. Heh!

Indeed!

That was my point...How low the bar has been set for our (ahem!) pResident**.

Guess I forgot that little sarcasm thingie!

[NNN0LHI]

29. I don't ever use that sarcasm thingy either

I catch hell once in a while over it too.

Its kind of funny.

Don

[wryter2000]

33. I got your irony

I just chickened out and used the :sarcasm: so no one would miss my point.

[sofa king]

14. He's just getting started.

Three billion people are dependent upon a reliable petroleum supply for their lives. Iran is going to be invaded because America wishes to deny that fuel source to the Chinese. The result very well could be worldwide famine within a matter of years.

If that happens, the two orders of magnitude disparity is going to shift in the other direction, and people are going to start complaining that comparing America to Germany minimizes our crimes.

[cali]

47. not so.

Your analysis is flawed. We may wish to deny China a fuel source, but with the amount of debt China holds, it's unlikely we'll do anything about it. China and the US have a profoundly symbiotic relationship. In addition, with 160,000 U.S. troops across the border from Iran, we ain't gonna be invading that country.

[boolean]

15. Different type of war. Different world. Invalid comparison.

Iraq is a guerilla war. There was no 24/7 media back then. Weapons were not as precise as they are today. Chimpler hasn't been systematically rounding up people and gassing them.

But the fascism and power hunger and greed is all the same.

[rustydog]

17. Hitle began by having the legislature make him a dictator

Bush just succeeded by having the Republican led legislature kill habeus corpus. he can imprison any american simply by declaring, without having to prove it, the person an enemy.

the comparison is apt. it doesn't require a body count, it requires INTENT and there is a tone of that in bush.

[Webster Green]

19. Yep..

I agree!

[Rex]

20. Poor guy? Tell that to the innocent people that lose family members

everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan. Poor guy my ass.

Bush ain't Hitler, Hitler actually fought in WWI and accomplished huge gains, economically for Germany. He was doing great until he lost his mind and started blaming the Jews for his own problems. Oh and started invading countries, I think Bush calls it pre-emptive war. How quaint. :eyes:

Bush ain't no Hitler, but he would like to be.

[Hardrada]

25. Hiler could read and write and speak eloquently too

and didn't have a daddy to bail him out of tough spots. An evil malevolent clever guy who understood his enemies because he studied them, something quite anathema to Der Shrub.

[wryter2000]

34. You know, that's a good point

Hitler managed all that evil on his own. Bush couldn't even do that without help from the family. :rofl:

[left is right]

21. Body count misses the whole point of such comparisons

We compare him to Hitler in order to rouse the citizenry to action against * long before his counts get as high. It is easier to deal with a madman before he commits atrocities

[madokie]

23. don't tell the glad-happy bastard he'll just ratchet the killing up

after all he can't stand to be second in anything including killing

[trof]

24. Yeah, he's a piker.

War president my ass.
He's a wimp just like his dad.
;-)

[stepnw1f]

30. Sorry.... (nt)

[Octafish]

36. Bush is just getting started.

Hitler didn't have nukes, otherwise we all wouldn't be here.

Just the Aryan-looking would be around.

Bush is striving, though.

[leesa]

37. Now, now...Hitler was actually a soldier and saw action.

[Bad Penny]

40. six years after hitler gained power he started WW2

six years after bush gained power he already had two wars underway and nearly a million dead. Hitler is running behind bush so far

[zulchzulu]

41. Chimp is more like Stalin than Hitler

Hitler was a LOT smarter than Chimp will ever be.

[Zynx]

42. Hitler killed about 50 million.

That's a very difficult number to top. He killed almost 30 million in Russia alone.

[ComerPerro]

44. Hitler had over 12 years

[Bucky]

45. The problem with the fascist/nazi comparison is how hysterical it sounds

It suggests a lack of awareness of just how bad, how politically constricted, life was under Hitler and Mussolini. There are some parallels, but you could draw those same parallels with any corrupt regime that lies to its people. If that's the standard for being a nazi, then there's almost no standard at all.

In terms of political substance, Bush is certainly not a fascist. Fascists were corporatists--which doesn't mean they favored giving power to large corporations, by the way. Bush stole an election, something a true fascist would never feel the need to do. Corportism is the belief that certain groups in society have the right and obligation to exercise control over the society in order to maintain social and national cohesion.

Bush subverts the law; a fascist overrides it. Bush brays about his mandates and his political capital; a fascist takes it without excuses. Fascists are generally racist; Bush prides himself on browning up the Republican Party (his real agenda attacks the working class without regard to race). Fascists try to coopt labor movements and keep people quiet by keeping them working; Bush attacks the labor movement and exports jobs to benefit millionaires. Fascists seek to nationalize critical industries while Bushkies seek to privatize critical governmental functions and kowtow to large business interests. Bush is an instinctive deregulator while fascists try to micromanage major sectors of the economy. In a war against a Muslim movement, fascists would attack Islam itself as a hateworthy collective threat to their homeland, while Bush has been fastideous about calling Islam a religion of peace and disassociating from the hate speech coming from some on the Right.

I'm not saying there aren't similarities. There are. They both have a tendency to twist words, hide truth, rally the people through unnecessary wars, and engage in police state tactics against ordinary citizens. They both function thru paranoia and politicize everything and demonize all dissent as disloyalty. But mostly this is because they share a fetish for power. Their egos drive them to reckless misrule and ever shrinking legitimacy. But I'd call Bush more of a republican monarchist--a believer in the supremacy of executive power. He's still dangerous, of course, but if you're gonna be technical, Bush is far being a true fascist.

[cali]

48. Great post.

I'd only add that the bush/hitler comparison, as it sounds hysterical, stops up peoples' ears. They simply stop listening, when more reasoned criticism might get through.