Why are the Dems not courting the Latino vote? With the immigration

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

hysteria coming from the RW loonies, we Dems should be reaching out to the millions of American citizens with Hispanic heritage.

I don't understand why the thinly veiled racism aimed at an enormous number of our fellow citizens is not being tackled head on?

It seems like a win/win, a principled stance with the potential to resonate with millions of hardworking people who embody our country's values.

MKJ

[acmavm]

1. Because even with the Dems illegal immigration is a red hot issue

and the majority of us want the something done about all the illegals coming into the country.

So the choice is go for the Hispanic vote and alienate the majority of the Dems (even according to 'polls' done here on DU).

It's not a 'rightwing looney' issue as you so arrogantly and wrongly phrased it.

[UTUSN]

2. Wingnut looniness IS mixed with legitimate concerns

*******QUOTE*******
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=589

Broken Record
Lou Dobbs' daily 'Broken Borders' CNN segment has focused on immigration for years.

But there's one issue Dobbs just won't take on.

By Heidi Beirich and Mark Potok

.... For more than two years now, Dobbs has served up a populist approach to immigration on nightly segments of his newscast entitled "Broken Borders." He has relentlessly covered the issue, although hardly from a traditional news perspective -- Dobbs favors clamping down on illegal immigration, and his "reporting" never fails to make that clear. He has covered the same issues, and the same anti-immigration leaders, time after time after time. In recent months, Dobbs has run countless upbeat reports on the "citizen border patrols" that have sprung up around the country since last April's Minuteman Project, a paramilitary effort to seal the Arizona border.

But there's one thing Lou Dobbs won't do. No matter what others report about the movement, Dobbs has failed to present mounting and persistent evidence of anti-Hispanic racism in anti-immigration groups and citizen border patrols. ....

********UNQUOTE*******

[acmavm]

5. You say right wing looneyness is MIXED with legitimate concerns?

That's not what the OP said. And that's what my response was directed toward.

And another angle to this whole issue is that, like the I/P issue, some people like to cry racism whenever they don't read or hear something that goes along with their thoughts on the matter.

I've become numb to the charge of racism anymore toward anyone from anyone. It's become a really convenient way to rebut any arguement that a lot of people disagree with.

[Mountainman]

9. Wrong ! If you really investigate the memes of anti illegal immigration

you find that there is no truth to them. In reality it is the fear of social change driving the anti illegal immigration issue. If the reason is that it is illegal than why don't you feel as strongly about other illegal things going on that we pay no attention to? If the reason is that they don't assimilate, why do their kids go on to college so often and become middle class in one generation? If it is driving down wages, why do immigrants form unions and work for better labor conditions that improve life for all of us? If it is the taking of jobs, how can there be 12 million undocumented workers yet we have less than 5% unemployment? If it is not that they are taking jobs that Americans don't want then why aren't more Americans working as farm laborers? Don't say that if farm labor paid enough you would take the job since farm labor never did and never will pay a living wage. No you fear cultural change and you say you are numb to the charge of racism because you have no logical argument against it.

[acmavm]

10. Oh yeah, then there's the people like you who tell others that they

alone know what motivates the thoughts and actions of everybody.

[Mountainman]

12. That's not a very good rebuttal is it? Attack what I say if you can.

Don't attack the person saying it. A few years back I was very anti illegal immigration. I felt that they illegals were destroying my quality of life. That they were driving down my standard of living because they could live on a much lower standard than I wanted for myself. Then I began to see that all my ranting and raving was not changing things one bit and was not affecting the illegals one bit. All it was doing was making me angry and negative. I searched my soul and found that it was racism driving my feelings. I really did not like the Mexicans coming here and changing the culture. I did not like all the spanish language radio and television stations. I did not like going to the grocery store and hearing a bunch of brown skin people not speaking English. I did not like the changes to society that they were imposing on me! Then I began to understand that change was the way things were going to be and that there wasn't anything I could do to stop it. I could either continue to rage against the wind or go with it. I decided to investigate the anti immigration talking points and found them all to be without much truth. I began to talk to immigrants and to understand them. I remembered that my grand parents were immigrants and that they never learned to speak English. I understood that in a large way I was much like them.

[acmavm]

20. I've argued this on MANY a thread. Find them. I'm just tired of people

like you telling people like me what I really think and why I really think it.

I don't care to argue with you. I don't care period. Illegal is illegal. And there are too many ILLEGAL aliens here, and not only Hispanics.

Racism is just a convenient, cheap, and easy argument for some people. Run with it, I don't care. But I will tell you here and now, I've made my reasons plain many times, I have no ambition to do it again right now. And my reasons are MY reasons, not the one's you would like to say they are.

Immigration is a lose/lose issue for the dems. I don't think that their silence will have much of a negative impact on them, but I do know that if they start taking sides on the argument it most certainly will.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. So they did crack down on border crossings

and now the farmers in California are in deep shit because they can't get their crops picked by the people who have been picking them for the last 100 years or so. Gee, perhaps we ought to just normalize and legalize the de facto arrangement? Nah, no fun in that.

[Mountainman]

38. Yes your ideas are your ideas and you are entitled to them. I've read

your posts many times. You never defend what you say with facts that can be supported. I will fight what you say when ever I can because you are wrong. The immigrants coming here legal or illegal are not hurting you. For one they help keep the prices of the food you by down. Your life and mine would be much better off if we combined forces with the illegals and fought for social justice. The illegals are much more motivated than we are to get what they want. That is demonstrated by the way they can unite and go after what they seek and usually get it while we expect some government agency to do for us what we demand. Take a lesson from the immigrants and join with them for the good of all of us. The fighting among ourselves will never really get anywhere. The corporations want the cheap labor. There will never be anti immigration laws that really have teeth. Even the new law to build the fence will not really build a fence that works. It wasn't written that way. You are pissing in the wind my friend and the sooner you realize that the sooner you can help build a better world for all of us.

[acmavm]

45. Whatever. You are welcome to your whacked out theory that the

never-ending influx of illegals somehow enrich everyone's lives. And you can think that I'm wrong all you want. Seriously I've wasted way more of my time on you than its been worth.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. one at a time

1) the fear of social change is used as a method of pandering to people. Assimilation, language and (to a large degree) public assistance fall into this category.
2) the wage-depressing effects of unrestricted immigration are very real. The reason that the unemployment rate is unchanged is because the BLS keeps revising the size of the "workforce" arbitrarily down to manipulate this number. Not that long ago, the workforce was 68% of the population, now it's more like 60%. It's harder to find work today - because of immigration.
3) as a young man, I learned work skills on a farm. This is no longer possible for my own kids.

The above is a primary, and very good, reason that illegal immigration is illegal.
http://www.unlawflcombatnt.blogspot.com/

[Mountainman]

37. One at a time, I don't understand what you mean by your number one

Wages are falling that is part of the corporatizing of this country and would have happened no matter what the immigration situation. The busting of the unions and the lack of unskilled jobs in manufacturing and the off shoring of jobs forces people with little skills to compete with each other. The illegal workers are added to the mix that is already here. Illegals are not competing with skilled labor and wages for skilled labor are not falling like unskilled labor.

The loss of family farms is because of the corporatizing of the food industry. The illegals are taking advantage of the need for farm labor. I live near the San Joaquin Valley. In the 1930's there was an influx of cheap labor from the midwest when the tenant farm system collapsed due to the dust bowl days. The farmers that could afford it built canning facilities and sold their own produce to themselves at lower than market prices because of the very cheap labor afforded to them by the migrants. They forced the prices of farm commodities down so that other land owners could not compete and lost their farms. The canneries bought up the foreclosed farms at tax auctions and thus increased their acreage. That was the beginning of the large factory farms. Grimway and Bolthouse are the biggest around here and were built just as I stated. The factory farms were a magnet that brought the illegals in huge numbers seeking a better quality of life then they could get in Mexico.

What you are saying sounds reasonable but it really isn't when you know the history of this area.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. Not true

Construction can't be offshored. Farm labor can't be offshored. The benefits of offshoring can, however, be attained by bringing cheap labor to the domestic workplace.

The Joaquin valley experience is only partially analagous to agriculture in other parts of the country. In my area, small family farms are the norm, and migrant labor has displaced the local employment base. Tree-planters, in particular, are now exclusively hispanic businesses.

You asked a bunch of questions, starting with the topic of xenophobia, (my answer #1) which is a real phenomenon, but is aggravated by real economic problems created by corporatist economic policy.

[Nikia]

Some Americans are unskilled laborers too

Having more people competing for the same jobs does drive the price of labor down because people tend to be paid based on how hard they are to be replaced. If the worker is more easily replaced, they will be paid less.
I am not adverse to temporary immigrant labor. There are programs to get immigrants temprary visas for temporary labor, especially farm labor. It may be there aren't enough of these visas, but some businesses don't even try to get people here the legal way.
I don't think that we should just take everyone who shows up. That is irresponsible.
I don't think that all Hispanics like free for all immigration. Some of the Hispanic immigrants did have to wait a while to come to the U.S. legally and pay a lot of money. Native born Hispanics may have reasons for being for and against immigration just like other Native born Americans. I think that all Hispanics don't behave alike politically. No one asks why whites don't believe all the same way. Why characterize a minority group like this.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

51. You are so right. My OP was way too narrowly focused.

I see the ads that the GOP candidates and 527's are running and they are so over the top in demonizing Mexican (no other country) illegal immigrants that I responded viscerally.

I live in CO and grew up in NM and, it seems, all of sudden, our Latino friends, family and coworkers are having to deal with hostility and open accusations that they are somehow not legitimate citizens.

And, although racist attitudes are nothing new, this just seems to be at higher level than ever before.

I'm guilty of trying to categorize a diverse group of people and I thank you for your post. MKJ

[UTUSN]

17. The OP chose to emphasize THE PART of the MIXTURE that IS wingnut

looniness. I chose to back him up on that, while also throwing a CRUMB to you. To you I say that THE PART of the whole immigration MIXTURE-issue that is LEGITIMATE is about 10% (I'm guessing here, rhetorically) of the whole, with racism and fear making up the rest. You DO tend to attack whoever responds to you. I don't have to RESTATE an o.p. Discussion EXPANDS, no?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

6. Well, it seems they, the RW, are trying to paint multi generational

American citizens of Hispanic heritage with the same brush as those here illegally.

It's all about the brown people, as George Carlin says.

MKJ

[Mountainman]

7. Hispanic voters are mostly Dems. Like many issues there is no one side to

take here. If we help the undocumented immigrants to gain citizenship we gain more Dems, it's just that simple. If we all join the hysteria that says we are being invaded by the Mexicans then we blow a big chance to get the social justice most of us long for. If you really investigate the anti immigrant talking points you will find that they hold little real truth.

On the other hand, if working class Americans united with the immigrants rather than fighting each other we could dominate the politics of this country for years to come. It makes good sense for working class voters and immigrants to form a coalition since what we all want is a better standard of living and social justice. The corporations want us to keep up the fight because it helps supply the cheep labor they want. If the immigrants were citizens they would become subject to labor laws and the power we would gain in numbers if we joined hands would help to change labor laws in our favor.

So rather than keep up the hysteria of illegal immigration, we should all work together to fight the corporate take over of our society. Think about it.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

8. What you said. "Illegal Immigration" is the divide and conquer" issue

the GOP is hurling at us.

MKJ

[KingFlorez]

11. The right-wing has made it a race issue

Some of them are more concerned about race, than illegal immigration.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Because...

Two guys were hiking through the jungle when they spotted a bear that looked both hungry and fast. One of the guys reached into his pack and pulled out a pair of Nikes. His friend looked at him.

"Do you really think those shoes are going to make you run faster than that bear?"

"I don't have to run faster than the bear," his friend replied. "I just have to run faster than you."

Courting the latino vote will alienate US workers. Everything that you could say would look like supporting immigration, either legal and illegal. It is understood by working americans that wages are depressed by an infinite supply of cheap labor.

So long as the RW loonies are in vicious attack mode, the Democrats will get their votes by default. What's less clear, and more important, is that we get a significant share of workers who are concerned about their jobs.

[Mountainman]

18. Immagine if you will that the two guys worked together to fight the bear

[William Bloode]

50. Yeah, they'd both be dead.

Nt/

[w4rma]

4. Latinos' Views Mixed on Immigration, Poll Finds

…
For example, Hispanics born in this country support efforts to deny driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, while the majority Hispanic citizens who emigrated do not.
…
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4802654

New poll finds majority of Americans see illegal immigration as a “serious problem”.
…
Asked what they think is a “desirable” number of legal immigrants per year, most Americans (76%) would prefer immigration be kept below current levels (i.e., they say they would like to see less than one million per year admitted).

In fact, a majority (58%) would prefer fewer than 300,000 enter per year.

Opinions vary somewhat by age, with older Americans taking a harder line against legal immigration; in fact, one in four of those age 65+ (25%) would prefer to see no legal immigrants enter per year, whereas only one in twenty (5%) of those 18-24 have the same view.

Attitudes Toward Illegal Immigration

About 400,000 immigrants come to this country each year illegally, and it is estimated that 8 to 10 million illegal immigrants reside in the U.S. today.

Americans agree (85%) that illegal immigration is a “serious” problem, and over half (55%) say it is “very serious.”

Older Americans are particularly likely to hold this view. For example, persons age 65+ are twice as likely as 18-24 year olds to say illegal immigration is a “very serious” problem.

Setting Goals

As a measure of their concern about illegal immigration, most Americans approve setting as goals:

· Completely halting illegal immigration (68%) and

· The reduction of the number of illegal immigrants now present in the United States to near zero (67% agree)

Again, older Americans are particularly likely to agree these are worthy goals, with about twice as many 65+ year-olds than 18-24 year-olds “strongly agreeing” that such goals should be implemented.
…
http://www.npg.org/immpoll.html

[Mountainman]

39. Before the civil rights movement you could get the same kind of results

if you ask people what they felt about integration. The views of people are largely based on ideas that are put out there by forces who want to frame the argument. You tell someone that illegal immigration is hurting their chances for a good job and of course if they do not investigate the claim will be against illegal immigration. You never really hear or read about the studies that show these claims to be false.

[w4rma]

47. There is no support for some type of "movement" towards pro-illegal

immigration. Neither is there wide support for higher levels of legal immigration than what we have now.

It's not going to happen. And it is political suicide to try to push it in the vast majority of districts.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

52. Reaching out to American citizens of Hispanic heritage is NOT support

for illegal or legal immigration.

MKJ

[w4rma]

59. It is *still* racist to assume that most hispanics are here illegally.

And it is wrong to assume that the vast majority of hispanics support illegal immigration or even increased immigration.

What you are proposing is an insult. It is not "reaching out to hispanics".

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

60. In response to your post, I'll point to posts 6, 8,19, 21,26, 34, 44, 52,

55 and 56.

acmavm, calico1, noahmijo, Warren Stupidity, TheFarseer, Cleita and Mountainman have provided articulate deconstruction.

But, hey, thanks for your feedback. MKJ

[RB TexLa]

13. Are you not listening to Spanish language radio?

:shrug:

[Quantess]

14. Because:

Most voters think that illegal immigration is an out of control problem. Most voters, Democrats included.

[NNN0LHI]

22. Thats not true. Only a fringe element is concerned with immigration

http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm




CBS News/New York Times Poll. Sept. 15-19, 2006. N=1,131 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

.


"What do you think is the most important problem facing this country today?" Open-ended

.


ALL Adults - Republicans - Democrats - Independents
% % % %
War in Iraq 22 15 32 19
Terrorism (general) 14 26 6 12
Economy/Jobs 11 7 16 10
Immigration 4 8 2 3
Gas/Heating oil crisis 3 3 2 4
Health care 3 2 4 3
Foreign policy 3 1 3 5
Defense/Military 3 4 1 2
Foreign aid 3 1 2 6
President Bush 3 1 7 2
Other 25 24 21 28
Unsure 6 8 4 6

[Quantess]

23. I would say you have a good point, but,

When asked "What do you think is the most important problem..." who isn't going to answer Iraq, terrorism, or the economy? Only extreme anti-immigration folks are going to say that "immigration" is the top problem.

[Quantess]

28. Zogby poll

Here's an article about it:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006poll.html

Check out the poll charts toward the bottom. Democrats show only a few points difference from Republicans, on some of the questions.

[noahmijo]

15. Latinos aren't exactly fully on our side

Before you start I'm latino I did my part in courting the Latino vote (doing voter drives in Spanish, ect)

Big problem alot of Latinos are very devout Catholics which makes them very very anti-gay and very pro any candidate who likes to mention the word "God" alot.

Also the subject of illegal immigration doesn't inspire them to vote for Democrats-because they AGREE with the idea of keeping illegals out. They feel since they did whatever they had to do to get in legally it doesn't matter if today the next immigrant has to work 100 times harder than they ever had to, they should be kept out.

Believe me I had my fair share of pointing out to many latino women who expressed hateful sentiments towards illegals in the country today that the only reason their princessa asses are legally planted in the states is beccause they found some clueless gringo who was willing to marry them.

You can tell I am bitter on this issue. Of course I have seen the masses of latinos out there who wonderful people and have progressive values but sadly from what I've seen they'd be lucky to make up even half of the overall population of hispanic voters.

[acmavm]

16. I went to a private girls Catholic boarding school in high school. The

only times I got sprung on weekends I went to stay with my best friend and her family. Their last name was Martinez. Their family came here legally. They were absolutely the among the best and most generous and decent people I've ever known. I am not anti-Hispanic.

I am firmly, irrevocably, and forever ANTI-ILLEGAL. The end.

And to anyone who consistently cries 'racist' on this issue, that's the only argument you got against people like me. And it's worthless.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

21. Well, I'm glad you were friends with someone named Martinez.

I guess that proves that you're not a racist. MKJ

[acmavm]

29. I guess you just proved how weak your reading skills and your reasoning

skills really are. I used that as an example that it is not that I am blindly picking on a group of people just because they are unfamiliar to me, or that I dislike Hispanics just because they are Hispanic. I lived with them, I loved them, and I understand exactly why their families came here.

Did I mention they did it LEGALLY? Like my ancestors did.

LEGALLY. No one here has an argument against legal immigration. As people in this very thread have pointed out, those that do come here LEGALLY don't approve of those that sneak across the border illegally.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

34. I hope you reserve some of that anger for the companies/corporations

that hire them, at slave wages, by the thousands, with zero consequences.

And, maybe, just move a tosch of that anger away from the poverty stricken citizens of our neighbor, to focus on the corrupt governments, both here and in Mexico, that are supporting trade policies designed to destroy the middle class in both countries.

:-) MKJ

[acmavm]

36. And I hope that just one of these fine days you realize that you can

worry and care about what you worry and care about and that you learn to allow others the same luxury. In other words, don't try to mind everyone's business for them, try to do a better job on your own. And give up the mind reading act. You're not very good at it.

[noahmijo]

24. It's HOW you deal with being anti-illegal now if you are or not

I am anti-illegal because of the fact that it exploits foreigners and it enriches the crooks who hire them.

Why can't my cousin who got his Master's here in the states and has held a job for Motorola in Mexico now for over a decade can't obtain citizenship here in the states?

He won't be a fruitpicker that's why.

What irks me is the argument that threatening illegals or putting up walls is going to solve the problem-THAT'S a racist and ignorant sentiment. Anybody who is truly educated on this issue knows full well that the root of the problem lies in the truths of supply and demand. As long as this country demands illegal labor it doesn't matter how many death traps or billy bobs you put out there with rifles the stream of illegals or "supply" will always come through.


I have yet to hear one person or policitican point out the root of the problem-Demand I have yet to hear one politician talk about how they are proposing laws to imprison or punish financially anybody who willingly hires illegal immigrants. Just like this guy who lives in the neighborhood across from mine who had the displeasure of meeting once. This guy can't say enough bad things about illegals and Mexicans yet low and behold there's a woman straight from Mexico cleaning his kitchen and living room for him.

You think he brought her here legally?


So that's my point, I get fed up with the notion that strong laws on the illegals themselves will accomplish anything. They do nothing but make John American feel better about himself. You want to solve the problem? go for the root, laws to punish the employers, tell the new Conservative President of Mexico (who will continue to keep wages in Mexico below slave salaries and thus help drive more illegals to the states) that he better come up with better ideas to keep his workforce otherwise we're cancelling NAFTA (which we never will because it helps the rich)

This is simply history retelling itself. Replace "Mexican" with "Irish" or "Chinese" and the same xenophobic arguments are thrown out there, but at the same time notice they never go away or went away-because the powers of supply and demand never did.

[w4rma]

62. You nailed the whole sorry situation to the wall, noahmijo. Thanks. (nt)

[Subdivisions]

32. I am fond of Hispanics, especially Mexicans. I love learning about

other peoples and other cultures and being here in Texas, that happens to be Hispanics. I am also very interested in the indigenous tribes of Amozonia and the Iraq people. My favorite food can only be prepared by a Mexican grandmother. I used to take regular annual vacations and the first place my finger landed on a map while planning vacations was somewhere in Mexico, usually on the Mayan Riviera, between Playa Del Carmen and Tulum with side trips to Chitchenitza and Cozumel, and because we just love it there so much at the Barcelo Maya Beach Resort (Sidenote: That's were the Corona beer commercials are shot).

However, I am (was) a construction worker for nearly 25 years and ILLEGAL (not UNDOCUMENTED) immigrants have devestated the job market for tradesman like me who were used to drawing $20+/hour and now are lucky enough to find a job making $12, and that's if you speak Spanish, which will get you a lead-man job so that you can tell your guys what to do en espanol.

I resent anyone who tags me as a racist just because I believe in LEGAL immigration. If someone comes here legally, then as far as I'm concerned, that person is welcome and if he/she happens to be a construction worker, I'll gladly compete with them in the job market. But to come here illegally and undercut me in the job market so that he/she is working and I am not, that is unacceptable.

And don't get me wrong, it's the crime of coming here illegally that I have a problem with and I don't blame the illegals. I blame those employers that would send me home without a paycheck just to turn around and hire an illegal alien for a quarter of my wage.

[Mountainman]

40. Did you ever consider working with the "illegals" against the corporations

Why isn't it as plain as the nose on your face that together you and the immigrants have more power over wages than either of you do working against each other? Why don't you work together to form your own building trades and companies and compete with those you say are underpaying you. You come from a very weak position and you are demanding something that just won't happen. Get a fucking clue! Like I said above, you are pissing in the wind. You have to change the dynamic by uniting with all workers against the corporations. The laws and the government will not do anything for you. They are keeping you down my friend and they want it that way. You have strength in numbers but as individual groups fighting with each other you have nothing. It's really up to you to change and you just don't see it and that is the saddest thing in my estimation. You are keeping yourself down by being so damned stubborn on this issue. Think outside the box for a change! No one is going to deport 12 million people, no one is going to send moms and dads to Mexico and leave their legal children here. No one is going to build a wall that you can't tunnel under. No one is going to fight the corporations for you. Get it?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

19. Thanks for this post, bitterness and all. We've got to get this discussion

beyond the GOP talking points, and to the heart of the matter.

The religiosity and the "I got mine, so screw you" attitude are not exclusive to any ethnic group. It's the lesser angels of human nature to which we're all prone.

MKJ

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. I was responding to noahmijo's post, not yours.

edited to add: Since the "bitter" remark was part of noahmijo's post and I responded accordingly, I would ask that you edit your post to remove that portion of your argument, since it's based on an false predication...that I said to you that you were "bitter". I didn't.

I would hope you are at least that civilized in your debate. :hi: MKJ

[noahmijo]

27. See my post here I think I sum it all up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2393095&mesg_id=2393403

[Warren Stupidity]

31. It is also just about the oldest game in the political play book.

Get us all fighting each other. Divide and conquer works like a charm every time.

[calico1]

33. As a Hispanic woman I can tell you

that it would be tricky at best to try and court the Hispanic/Latino vote based on the immigration issue. Many Hispanics who were born here don't like the idea of illegals anymore than anyone else. Many believe that illegal immigrants make THEM look bad too because they might get viewed as being here illegally and they resent that.

Also, as someone else mentioned, Hispanics tend to be socially Conservative with issues like gay marriage, abortion, etc. And as they get higher up on the income ladder, many turn Republican for the same reasons everyone else does--taxes and more perks for richer people.

And besides, if you court one group too strongly based on one issue you can piss off other groups you want to court. So like I said, tricky at best. This is an issue Democrats have to be careful with and not assume that all Hispanics favor letting illegal immigrants stay here. Because I can assure you, they all don't.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[calico1]

42. WTF???? I don't appreciate you telling me to

screw myself. I posted what I know about Hispanics, being one myself as I said and knowing many. And I didn't tell anyone to go screw themselves. It's very easy to say "Hispanics" Or "Latinos" like we are all one lump that thinks alike in every way. We are not and I was just pointing that out. Nice of you by the way to shoot the messenger. That is always very effective. You don't know me to tell me to go screw myself.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

44. calico1, I really don't think MM meant to direct that to you, personally.

Although, I can understand, because if I saw "screw you" in the response to one of my posts, I'd be plenty pissed off.

I think MM was just talking about a general pervasive attitude to which all of us can fall victim.

I'm a nurse and it used to be the attitude that the young, inexperienced new grads had to "earn their way". These idealistic, young, enthusiastic graduates were subjected to the worst shifts, assignments, etc. by the more seasoned nurses and managers.

Nice way to treat the new kid on the block, huh? And, then, of course, they perpetuated that process on the next few classes of new grads, when they themselves had some experience and seniority.

As an aside, I'm happy to say that the nursing profession is making a change to that attitude, with a strong focus on mentoring and supporting new grads.

You pointed out the tendency of people, comfortable in their positions in life, to resent those who are entering the lower rungs of their societal hierarchy.

MM expanded on it, and I'm positive that the "screw you" was not directed specifically at you.

But, again, I can understand why you felt that way. :pals: MKJ

[Subdivisions]

48. This is the second post in this thread I've read by you along

the same line. Are you talking about unionization or something similar, where workers leverage their brawn to obtain more fair wages and benefits?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

65. I think the first step is recognizing this hostility should more honestly

be between people who work their ass off to make sure that their loved ones are taken care of and those mega wealthy folks who sit back and pay people to do their bidding. Animosity between two groups of similarly situated folks is pointless, in the political arena..

All of us middle class type Americans have way more in common with immigrants (whatever their "legal" status) than with the corporate elite in the WH.
MKJ

edited to add: yes, yes to unionization. I went off on a tangent, but yes, Andy Stern and the SEIU are showing the way.

[Cleita]

54. Well, some of us Hispanic citizens would like to pass laws

that make the workers legal. It's not because I want to not be associated with them, but so that this new class of slave labor that is emerging in our country can have some rights like every other working person here.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

56. Yes, yes, yes! There you have the rising tide that raises all boats!

edited to add:

took out the applause icon, because I don't want to seem too emotional.

(leaving in a smiley face):-) MKJ

[calico1]

58. I know that. And some, like an aunt of mine

think the opposite.

Please note that in my OP I was not stating *my* opinion but rather what Hispanics I know think about the issue. My main point is, it is a tricky issue to use to attract the Hispanic vote since all Hispanics do not think the same on this issue (or many others).

[alfredo]

46. Are you in a district with a large Latino population?

If you are, have you noticed a lack of concern for the Latino vote?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

55. Not really. I am seeing lots of "be afraid" political ads that vilify the

immigrants without so much of a mention of the mega wealthy who are reaping rewards from the low wages, hard work they're providing.

It seems that the Latinos are now being scapegoated, since I don't see the RWads decrying the Canadian, Scots or Brits who are here illegally.

And, the Dem candidates are doing their "tough talking" against illegals, rather than the corporations or trade policies.

MKJ

[alfredo]

61. I think what is going on, the Reps have given up on the Hispanic

vote and is trying to pump up their goober base.

[TheFarseer]

49. Because no one likes illegal immigration

Not even an overwhelming majority of recent immigrants. Why the hell would we go after 10% or less of the population in most districts and totally alienate the vast majority of the other 90% or more? I think that not undercutting American workers with cheep illegal labor IS a DEMOCRATIC issue, not a "cheep labor conservatives" issue.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

53. In my neck of the woods, American citizens of Hispanic heritage are

much, much more than 10%.

I recall gwb aggressively courting their vote in 2000, because of their numbers.

Of course, they were one of the first focus voters thrown overboard, what with Vincente Fox helping the cabal.

MKJ

[TheFarseer]

57. Well, I said most districts

I don't advise trashing illegal immigrants in the El Paso district.

[greccogirl]

63. because it is illegal immigration that is the

problem and they don't want to be seen pandering to immigrants, EITHER side.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. American citizens of Hispanic heritage does not equal

pandering to illegal immigrants. I'm not sure how tha meme keeps ending up on DU. :shrug:

Please reread my OP. MKJ

edited for syntax and emoticons.