I think celebs adopting third world children is disgusting!

[LostInAnomie]

I think it is the ultimate stroke of vanity. For instance, Madonna recently essentially bought a African child from a deprived village and is trying to have it fast tracked by their government. Madonna by some estimates is worth $600 million, and makes close to $43 million a year. Instead of using her vast wealth to improve the lives of the people of that village, let alone the whole country, she is going to spend it buying a child that she will use as a fashion accessory while patting herself on the back for "doing a good thing".

Am I the only one who finds this behavior disgusting?

[CatWoman]

1. Heh

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2386999

[Ksec]

2. I dunno

If I were one of those poor kids, I would prefer to be adopted by some rich person to living in squallor.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

5. Exactly.

I'm sure that child is so horrified at escaping to a better life.

:sarcasm:

[QuestionAll...]

89. and whose to say how much madonna gives to charity.

fact is, if it was known it wouldn't be charity, it would be self promotion.
So I will not worry about this 'disgrace' at all, cuz we know poop all about how much madonna does for whom, and it ain't any of our business.

[Warpy]

26. There's been nothing to suggest she's anything but a good mother

to her own kids, and limiting the number of genetic offspring by adopting kids who are already here to add to her family could be considered quite laudable. Adopting children color is even more laudable, since so few whitefolks with money care to do that.

However, yes, I'd think supporting the village, especially the women, should be part of the bargain. It would be in my case, but perhaps she doesn't think like that.

A lot of people here in the US are adopting kids from China, eastern Europe, and central Asia. I have a cousin who has adopted 3 children from the latter. I can't accuse him of buying any of those children who would have been throwaway orphans in their own countries. I can't accuse Madonna of doing the same.

So yes, she's using her money to fast track the adoption, although it seems not to have worked quite the way she'd hoped. Cutting through government red tape isn't always a bad thing, though, when it's a child in an orphanage or foster care who has to do the worst part of the waiting.

[shadowknows69]

70. From an adoptee

As long as the child receives love, it's never a bad thing.

[LeftyMom]

3. I think it's vile when non-famous people do it, too.

:puke:

[guinivere]

29. Why?

I don't understand what is vile about adopting a child from another country. I know a couple with 2 daughters from China, and another couple with a son from Russia. The children are well loved and cared for. The kids are happy and love their parents.

[LeftyMom]

39. A few reasons:

1. Baby-selling and child kidnapping for that purpose are rampant in China especially and quite a few other countries popular with purchasers of foreign children.

2. A domestic adoptee has some hope of meeting thier parents and being raised in a culture that will allow them to identify with thier family. My child's father is adopted and met his mother eventually, since he grew up one town over from her they have no trouble communicating and he has a good relationship with her and with his half-siblings. A child raised thousands of miles from thier home does not and will likely never aquire enough of thier native language to even read thier own documentation and know where to start looking, let alone have a meaningful conversation with thier mother should they somehow find her.

3. Generally the reasons chosen for adopting foreign babies are at thier heart classist and often racist as well. As we all know there are plenty of children in need of homes in this country. However, many of them are dark-complected. Potential adoptive parents have a perception (which I believe to be racist at it's heart) that these are the potential children of drug addicts, but that the lighter complected children of chinese and eastern european mothers are not. Of course, eastern europe and china have drug problems as well. Also, the light complection itself is a selling point. Often this racist justification is hidden as "a child who looks like they could be ours" or "won't look out of place in our community/family," nevermind that birth children often don't resemble thier parents and suffer no psychological harm from it.

4. Buying Chinese girls supports the one child policy. It's easier for people to abandon thier daughters and try again for a son when they believe those girls will go to wealthy foreigners. China's gender balance is badly out of whack. If the abandoned girls were reared in China, it's likely fewer would be abandoned to begin with but at least the gender disparity would not be so bad and there wouldn't be a looming demographic crisis of men with little hope of marriage or stability.

[Horse with no Name]

45. Actually adopting the Chinese girls

might prevent them from being killed, or worse.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=54070
SOME big numbers are so frightening that a habitual reaction is to ignore them, deny them or optimistically assume that they are already dwindling. One such figure was produced in 1990 by Amartya Sen, who later won the Nobel prize for economics. More than 100m women, he claimed, were “missing”. Demographers have since quibbled with the arithmetic, but not with the underlying argument: that, in many countries, especially in Asia, there are fewer women than there should be, assuming normal patterns of birth and longevity.

Elisabeth Croll’s “Endangered Daughters” valiantly confronts the horror of that statistic and what it means in Asia—especially in China and India, that continent’s (and the world’s) most populous countries. In China the “one-child” policy that was introduced in the late 1970s soon proved unenforceable. Parents wanted sons too badly. Within a few years, most rural areas of the country had relaxed the rules to allow parents a second child, when their first was a girl. In India, too, “a daughter is said to arrive without an invitation”, while “the birth of a son is likened to ‘sunrise in the abode of the gods’.”

Among the grimmer consequences of this gender bias, infanticide, mercifully, seems less common than it was. But as techniques for determining the sex of a fetus improve and spread, sex-selective abortion is more prevalent. Surviving daughters are at greater risk than sons of neglect or abandonment, and face bigger obstacles to education and health-care.

[LeftyMom]

71. But it doesn't address the underlying problem

As long as there's a guilt-free easy out for unwanted girls, why those girls are unwanted won't be questioned. Motherless girls in the community would force people to confront a behavior they'd rather ignore.

[Horse with no Name]

83. Unfortunately we aren't going to address the underlying problem

because China owns us. The only leverage the US would have to stop this madness is with financial leverage--which we don't have.
If the US really cared about human rights, there wouldn't be a soul in this country who would buy ANYTHING Chinese and we wouldn't import anything from China.
So there really isn't any answer. However, if there are some children saved by adopting them, then sometimes that's just the best we can do.

[LeftyMom]

96. We have financial leverage, and not just with China

We are the largest market in the world. We buy the most shit, we consume an obscene percentage of the world's resources, we throw away more usable stuff than many countries could ever hope to buy and for the most part Americans do it selfishly. Until we address the inequitable distribution of resources, moving a few kids from poor countries to wealthy ones only serves to assuage the conciences of the rightfully guilty while doing nothing to actually address the problem that makes those countries and thier children poor.

[StoryTeller]

109. You really think it's that easy, huh?

You don't seem to have a good understanding of the culture. China has a rather long history of a preference, even an insistance, on raising sons. In a country where there is NO retirement pensions, NO social security, the long-standing custom is that sons care for their aging parents. No son=no care when you are too old to work. Daughters have been traditionally expected to care exclusively for their HUSBAND's parents.

There's also a family honor aspect. It's a patriarchal society where the bloodlines pass through the sons. So even now, in an age where younger couples honestly want to keep their girls, there is tremendous pressure placed on them by the HUSBAND's parents to have a son, to continue the bloodlines. This attitude is changing among the younger generation, but is still deeply intrenched in the older folks and in rural areas.

Many rural families and even a lot of urban people in China are not even aware of international adoption. There are a lot of unofficial adoptions, which leave the children unregistered--in a society where registration gets you jobs, some medical care, and education. Some are abandoned and end up in orphanages--not all of which have international adoption programs. (Orphanages have to demonstrate a level of care and competence in order to apply for the IA program, to prevent corruption.)

The rate of abandonment is dropping--not because of the IA program, but because the one-child policy is being relaxed in some areas. However, families that still exceed the allowable number of children (now moving toward one boy and one girl) still are faced with exorbitant fines, loss of jobs, and other penalties for violating the policy. And in some areas, local enforcement is still harsh, involving forced sterilizations or abortions.

It's estimated that over a million children are currently in Chinese orphanages. Only about 15,000 are adopted per year--all foreign countries combined, not just the U.S. The majority of these children in the orphanages have special needs and handicaps that prevent them from being considered adoptable domestically. To say that the International Adoption program is the reason girls are being abandoned is arrogant, ignorant, and rather ethno-centric--to think WE have that much influence over China. Pretty silly.

[LeftyMom]

118. I'm saying that it contributes to the problem.

I'm saying that moving healthy girls out of the country is destabilizing in a country that faces a growing crisis of men with no prospect of marriage, family and stability and that contributing to that problem is irresponsible.

I'm saying international adoption is selfish and shortsighted. The cost of raising one child in a privlidged home but with no connection to thier own culture could pay to raise many children in thier home country. Hell, the cost of the flight and adoption fees alone would allow that child's family to live well for many years, or pay for great improvements to thier care in the orphanage.

[nam78_two]

48. But what about children in orphanages?

What if the family has visited the country and there are well-respected institutions that have children they are looking to adopt out :shrug:

FWIW all the people I have known who adopted the apearance of the child was ever a concern. The complexion thing I have never even heard of as a concern...anecdotal evidence but I don't see how all the people adopting children have to be these evil, shallow people....

I can see the problems you raise being legitimate concerns if its setting up this industry and I can imagine rampant abuses.
But if done with the right amount of thought and care it can be a wonderful thing.

As for your point no. 2, there are a lot of children in Africa or India who need food and shelter-the concerns of not having a chance to ever meet their birth family(if any of them are even alive) would be secondary...

I sincerely believe a lot of people are not that cynical and shallow about adoptions....

[LeftyMom]

76. Those institutions are really good at putting on a show for americans

There's a huge financial incentive to do so as much of the adoption fee is distributed among the staff. In China, children are often transfered from less privlidged institutions to fancier places specializing in greeting the foreign child buyers before thier placement, often thier medical records or dodgy documentation of parentage are cleaned up at that time.

As for the idea that adoptive parents (who, due to the policies of social service agencies and private institutions are almost exclusively white, suburban and upper-income, I think this is a big part of the problem, that the system itself is so deeply biased) have a racist bias in thier chioce of children, compare the wait times for domestic adoptions of white children and children of color. Even when many agencies will waive some or all fees for hard to place kids (generally meaning older children, children with disabilities and children of color) many families choose instead to wait years for a white or light skinned asian or hispanic baby or to pursue an overseas adoption. I'm hard pressed to think of an explanation for this behavior other than racism.

Adoption by privlidged foreigners does not address the underlying causes of second and third word poverty. It is only a bandaid and an expensive one. It has the potential to further destabilize and demoralize a community, after all who wants to be told that they are not capable of raising thier own community's children? To take away a community's future and rear them with little to no understanding of who they are or where they come from is cultural imperialism.

[StoryTeller]

124. Again, you don't have all the facts.

Up until the last few years, Chinese parents were NOT allowed to adopt domestically unless they were childless and infertile. The one-child policy was enforced for adoptions. So China really put itself in a bind. The internation adoption program, when it first came into being in the early '90s, was at first seen as a loss of face for the country--understandably so. However, the Chinese government was wise enough to see that it was better to implement the program in a way that would help improve their orphanages as well as relieve the burden of overcrowding.

So yes, there's an orphanage donation that all foreign families must make to the orphanage. It is NOT true that the donation is distributed among the staff. It goes directly into various improvements for the orphanage and care for the remaining children. And yes, orphanages that are not yet eligible for the IA program do sometimes transfer children to ones that are. This makes good sense both for the children (who receive better care) and for the orphanages (provides a bit more balance between the "have" orphanages and the "have not" orphanages.)

And for the record, MOST of us who have adopted internationally are far from being wealthy. We adopt from a sense of love and compassion and a sincere desire to help. We make incredible sacrifices in order to proceed with the adoption, and so do our friends and family who help when and where they can.

Also, while international adoption cannot "solve" third world poverty, we DO make a difference. In China, the orphanages that are in the IA programs are able to improve their facilities, provide better care for the children who remain in the orphanage, implemente foster care programs, and provide medical care and education for the handicapped children who will never be adopted. (And before you jump on that one--CHINA is in charge of deciding which special needs children are adoptable by anyone--domestic or foreign--and which ones are not. As they discover that foreign parents are willing to take on special needs children, more are being allowed into the adoption program. Chinese parents, at this point in their cultural history, are not willing to take on special needs children because of social stigma and/or the financial commitment.)

International adoption also raises awareness of the needs of orphans in other countries. There are many, many organizations who now work VERY hard in China and in other countries to provide care and services to the kids who remain in the orphanages. Many of these organizations have been started and are funded by adoptive parents, adoption agencies, and others who have been touched by international adoption.

Most of us do not just adopt our children and go home. We understand that by receiving into our hearts and homes a child from another culture, we accept the responsibility to embrace that culture to the extent that we can. And our hearts are inextricably connected to that country in a way they never would have been otherwise. We want to see the children we've had to leave behind receive the same love and care that we are giving our children. We wish we could give all of them families, but at least thanks to our actions and the actions of other caring individuals, we are helping to improve the lives of as many orphans as we can.

[LeftyMom]

130. I see you read the brochure.

:eyes: There's plenty of information out there about the level of corruption in the orphanages and the adoption process. You can absorb it or not, but it's still true.

[StoryTeller]

169. More than that.

I know you apparently have at least some connection to the adoption community, but my experiences and my knowledge go WAY beyond a "brochure."

Are you an adoptive parent of a foreign-born child? I am.

Have you actually ever BEEN to China? I have.

Do you have friends who are Chinese citizens with whom you are able to discuss these issues and other things about Chinese culture? I do.

Have you spent hours and hours interacting with international adoptive families, getting to know them and learning what their real motivations were for their adoptions? I have.

Have you been in a position of educating prospective parents about international adoption, INCLUDING the challenges, to the point where you tried to talk them out of adoption because they weren't ready? I have.

Have you read numerous books, articles, position papers, and scholarly research done by both Americans and Chinese researchers regarding all aspects of adoption from China, including Chinese attitudes, attitudes of adoptees, attitudes of parents, etc.? I have.

Do you regularly read articles and books about Chinese history and culture, politics, and current events? I do.

Are you in contact with orphanage workers and volunteers in China who can give you in-country perspective? I am.

Are you in contact with American families who have moved to China so that their adopted children can experience life in their birth country? I am.

Are you familiar with and in contact with lead researchers about various aspects of Chinese adoption? I am.

Have you personally become a first-time parent to a 14 mo. old in a foreign country? I have.

Have you ever experienced what it's like to see your newly-adopted daughter so undernourished that her tummy caved in and her ribs showed through, and her bones dug into your lap through a diaper, 3 layers of her clothing, and your own clothes? I have.

Have you had a child who, at 15 mo. old, could not walk, speak, chew solid food, and who didn't even know what to do with a toy? I have.

Have you had a child who was so starved for a comfort object that she would cuddle the sleeve on her SHIRT because she had nothing else? I have.

Have you had a 2.5 year old daughter ask you "Why did my China mommy give me up?" I have.

Have you held your seven year old daughter on your lap as she (and you) sob uncontrollably because she is trying to come to terms with the truth that her China mom and dad did not want her? I have.

Have you had total strangers accost you, demanding to know why "China hates children" and have to serve as an ambassador to educate the truth that China actually loves children very much? I have.

Have you had to learn how to help your child overcome learning disabilities and deep rage issues derived from spending the first 14 mo. of life in an institution? I have.

I have lived this sort of thing EVERY DAY for the past eight years. My life experience and my countless hours of study and research have qualified me to speak on this subject. I have not only facts but also first-hand experience and a network of other qualified professionals that enable me to talk about international adoption from a unique position of understanding and expertise. I can speak coherently and knowledgeably about not just the benefits of international adoptions, but also its challenges and negative aspects. I know only too well that it's not a perfect situation. I firmly believe that in a perfect world, no child would ever--for any reason--have to face abandonment or loss of parents. This is my LIFE. This is my FAMILY. This is my CHILD. I know what I'm talking about.

What about you, any of you reading this post? What are your qualifications that enable you to actually have something credible to say about international adoption? Until your experience in this area is equivalent, until you've logged an equal number of research hours, until you've put in at least as much energy, effort, and personal emotion into trying to understand every facet of international adoption as you can...

You do NOT know what the hell you are talking about.

[alarimer]

49. It bothers me a little too

For those reasons and becaause there are plenty of kids in this country who need homes. They may not be babies and they may have some problems but I don't understand why more people don't go that route. But I am not a parent and don't really understand anyway. Maybe they think they could love a kid who's 8 or 10 years old as much as a baby of any race or ethnicity.

[guinivere]

65. The couple who have the 2 Chinese daughters told me

that it took over a year of research to insure that they were not 'sold' girls. I also know that they are not racist.
The couple with the Russian son are trying to learn Russian (they say it's not easy) and are teaching their son. THey are planning a trip to Russia in a few years to show the boy where he came from.

Three blocks down there is a white couple with a 3 year old black daughter. And all over town there are several mixed race marriages and children. This is just in the rinky dink town I'm in. While I know that racism is alive and well, I don't believe that a majority of adoptive parents have as racist/snobby attitude as you portray. Now granted, none of these people adopted a child with alcohol syndrome or born addicted to drugs. It takes a super special kind of person to want to take on those challenges. As it is, I think anyone that would open their hearts and lives to a child that is not biologically their's is pretty damn special.

[ulysses]

67. hell yes it does.

It takes a super special kind of person to want to take on those challenges.

A couple with whom we are friends adopted a child with fetal alcohol syndrome. I work with children with disabilities, and I doubt I'd have been able to be the parent that they both are.

[guinivere]

75. I think you fall into the super special category.

You work with children with disabilities and your adorable baby boy was born addicted.

[ulysses]

78. thanks, but not really.

:)

[ulysses]

66. wow.

Generally the reasons chosen for adopting foreign babies are at thier heart classist and often racist as well.

You know this how?

Potential adoptive parents have a perception (which I believe to be racist at it's heart) that these are the potential children of drug addicts, but that the lighter complected children of chinese and eastern european mothers are not.

Our son's birthparents are both white (which is probably obvious) and both recovering heroin addicts. Chris was born addicted to methodone. We knew all this going in. Of course, this was a domestic adoption, so maybe the "racist" slander doesn't apply because of that.

[REP]

88. It's Harder for a Foreign Mother to Contest the Adoption, As Well

In the US, a woman (and the father) has some rights in changing their minds about relinquishing the newborn (adoption agencies are well-known for using coercive tactics on prospective relinquishers, as each adoption brings them anywhere between $10K - $100K per successful adoption). A mother or father in a foreign country with little or no English and probably less money has almost no chance of fighting the adoption and reclaiming the child.

Despite the rosy, glowing pictures fostered by the adoption industry, adoption is not the 'loving option.' It is a wonderful option when done in the best interests of the child, who has no other family to raise and care for it, but a terrible, terrible way to redistribute babies from 'undesireables' (the poor, the young, the powerless) to the wealthy infertile. Just wanting something (n this case, a helpless human being) is not a good enough reason to be able to buy it.

[ulysses]

94. aaand here it comes...

So tell me...Christopher has birthparents, both alive, both of whom love him very much, and both of whom decided to give him to my wife and me and let him be our son before we ever knew they existed. We send them mother's/father's day cards (and they send us same), we visted them over a long weekend in July, they have a standing invitation to visit and stay in our home, and Ms Uly mailed them some new pics of him today.

Please tell me what coercive tactics we used in our adoption of Chris. Or were you just blowing shit out your ass?

[LeftyMom]

102. I don't know your situation but generally these problems crop up:

1. Disinformation. In both agency and private adoptions it's common for birth parents to get inaccurate information about their legal rights, about the potential adoptive parents and about the process.

2. Empty promises. Often when birth parents are promised an "open adoption" contact never occurs or tapers off quickly after the adoption is final. Sometimes it's even simpler and more insideous than that: my child's father, as I mentioned above, was adopted. His birth mother crocheted him a jacket and hat and was promised by the adoption agency that they'd pass it along to his adoptive family and ask them to keep it for him. Neither he nor his birth parents heard a thing about it until he met his mother at the age of 32. He does have a blanket the foster mother who had him for a few days sent along though. Apparently the adoption agency wanted to eliminate any connection to his birth mother (they fought like hell to hide his records as well, his mother had to engage a PI to find him) and intentionally lost or destroyed the handmade layette, breaking a verbal agreement with his birth mother.

3. Unequal distribution of power. Rarely is there a lawyer paid to represent the interests of the birth parents or the child. Often a lawyer hired by the birth parents represents both parties, but of course thier first loyalty is not to the child but to the person who cuts thier checks.

[ulysses]

126. let me fill you in

so that you can make your generalizations about adoptive parents in a more informed manner.

I had Hodgkin's lymphoma when I was eleven (I'm 37 now). I'm sterile as a result of the treatment. My wife and I had been married for almost ten years when I got tested and we discovered that fact (I'd always known that the treatment would impact my sperm count later in life, but hadn't counted on it being zero).

When we found out, we discounted medical procedures because of the cost, primarily. What our research told us was that overseas adoption would be a lot more expensive than domestic, so we went domestic, with an agency that specializes in open adoptions.

Over the next three and a half years, we had five broken matches with birthparents, including one reclaim before which we'd had the baby for three days when the birthmom changed her mind. I wrote about a lot of this here on DU. The agency turned out to suck for a variety of reasons, but they did do one thing - we're all about open adoption.

We gave Christopher's birthparents no misinformation - we told them that we wouldn't vanish or cut them off from contact, and we haven't and won't (unless they start with the heroin again, temporarily and for his own good, horrible fucks that we are). As far as I know, our attorney (himself a parent through open adoption) gave them none regarding their rights or the process. We gave them no empty promises. As to representation of the interests of the child, Chris was appointed a guardian ad litem before we finalized. His birthparents just placed an amazing amount of trust in us (baby-stealing scumbags that we are) and expressed no reservations, even when we had them over for dinner at the hotel the night before the finalization.

Hope that helps.

[LeftyMom]

132. Did I ever say a damned thing about your situation? No.

I said where the problems generally crop up. If you managed to avoid all of them, I applaud you. It doesn't in any way change the fact that the way adoptions occur in this country disempowers birth parents.

[ulysses]

133. it's the generalization.

It doesn't in any way change the fact that the way adoptions occur in this country disempowers birth parents.

Closed adoptions surely do, yes. My sister's ex husband was adopted in a closed way by fucked up folks. He's a mess. But that doesn't justify the generalization.

How about this - "Vegans are unhealthy." I don't doubt for a second that there are some vegans out there who aren't in the best of health. Does that justify the generalization?

[REP]

143. The Guilty Flee Where No Man Pursuith.

Don't know why, but that just popped into my head.

[ulysses]

145. does that happen often?

You might get it checked out.

[REP]

148. Just When Reading Your Posts

Odd, that.

[ulysses]

150. odd, indeed.

As I said, you might get it checked.

[REP]

106. My Comment Was Not About Your Specific Adoption

I do not know the details, other than the ones you have provided. I do know how the industry works, and why less than 2% of women with unwanted/unplanned pregnancies relinquish their newborns to adoption; that the relinquishing mother has a high risk of psychological problems due to the relinquishment (I can provide the studies again) and that adoptees have a much higher risk of suicide than non-adoptees (study can be provided again).

I do wonder why you took it so personally, though - I didn't even reply to your post.

[LeftyMom]

121. I can back that last bit up.

I count amongst my friends several adoptees- all the prized healthy white male infants, the babies who at the time were assured the best families. Every last one of them has depression, strained relations with thier adoptive family and attatchment issues. Every. last. one.

[REP]

123. These Children Have Wealthier and Better-Educated Parents Than Average

According to these studies, adopted children have wealthier and better-educated mothers than the average population, yet have a higher incidence of depression and suicide (some studies also found higher incidence of heart disease and alcoholism as well). Numerous studies have found that relinquishing an infant to adoption does lasting damage to the woman. Adoption can be a wonderful thing when it is done in the best interest of the child, but it has so many ramifications it chould not be done lightly just because someone wants a baby. After all, these are human lives, not consumer goods.

[ulysses]

129. maybe you have some fucked up friends.

:shrug:

[LeftyMom]

131. Unfortunately, quite a few of them were adopted by fucked up people.

In LeftyKid's Dad's case, his adoptive parents wanted a child just like them. They didn't get one, and not once in 35 years have they let him live his inability to be the perfect midwestern football star son down. A cursory examination of thier wants for a child would probably have revealed thier inability to love whoever chance gave them (to be fair, they could have had a child with thier DNA who didn't share thier interests as easily) but they were able to prove thier financial capability and church-going conventional lives, and that was all they had to demonstrate to get a baby.

Honestly, he would have been better off with his unmarried, broke, but loving mother. Her other two kids came out great.

Frightfully enough, the other stories are worse.

[REP]

137. Wonder How That Could Have Happened

:shrug:

typo

[ulysses]

139. beats me. I know a lot of fucked up folks

who weren't adopted, though.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ulysses]

144. fine - apply same to LeftyMom's "many fucked up adopted friends"

[REP]

147. No, I Provided Studies

You have provided a lot of spleen and not much else.

[ulysses]

152. you seem to have missed my meaning.

Not that I'm surprised.

[REP]

155. You Missed Mine; Completely Expected

You managed to find in the studies I posted the one thing that validated your position and ignored the rest. Not surprising.

[ulysses]

as long as you're running from my points,

here's another one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2391957&mesg_id=2392054

[ulysses]

159. by the by, you've never mentioned

which coercive tactics we used against Chris' birthparents.

[ulysses]

163. no problem - we'll resume in the morning, yes?

[ulysses]

128. ok.

I do not know the details, other than the ones you have provided.

See my post 126.

that the relinquishing mother has a high risk of psychological problems due to the relinquishment (I can provide the studies again) and that adoptees have a much higher risk of suicide than non-adoptees (study can be provided again).

Please do provide those studies. I'd like to see the dates, and whether or not they involved open adoptions.

I do wonder why you took it so personally, though - I didn't even reply to your post.

Because I'm an adoptive parent who is sick of adoptive parents being characterized as unfit.

[REP]

135. Nothing I Posted Was About 'Fitness'

You have posted your view of the adoption. The child's relinquishing parents side is not represented.

J Obstet Gynecol Neonatal Nurs. 1999 Jul-Aug;28(4):395-400.
Related Articles, Links

Postadoptive reactions of the relinquishing mother: a review.

Askren HA, Bloom KC.

Deer Valley OB/GYN, Mesa, AZ, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To review the literature addressing the process of relinquishment as it relates to the birth mother. DATA SOURCES: Computerized searches in CINAHL; Article 1 st, PsycFIRST, and SocioAbs databases, using the keywords adoption and relinquishment; and ancestral bibliographies. STUDY SELECTION: Articles from indexed journals in the English language relevant to the keywords were evaluated. No studies were located before 1978. Studies that sampled only an adolescent population were excluded. Twelve studies met the inclusion criteria and were included in the analysis. DATA EXTRACTION: Data were extracted and information was organized under the following headings: grief reaction, long-term effects, efforts to resolve, and influences on the relinquishment experience. DATA SYNTHESIS: A grief reaction unique to the relinquishing mother was identified. Although this reaction consists of features characteristic of the normal grief reaction, these features persist and often lead to chronic, unresolved grief. CONCLUSIONS: The relinquishing mother is at risk for long-term physical, psychologic, and social repercussions. Although interventions have been proposed, little is known about their effectiveness in preventing or alleviating these repercussions.

Med J Aust. 1986 Feb 3;144(3):117-9.
Related Articles, Links

Psychological disability in women who relinquish a baby for adoption.

Condon JT.

During 1986, approximately 2000 women in Australia are likely to relinquish a baby for adoption. A study is presented of 20 relinquishing mothers that demonstrates a very high incidence of pathological grief reactions which have failed to resolve although many years have elapsed since the relinquishment. This group had abnormally high scores for depression and psychosomatic symptoms on the Middlesex Hospital questionnaire. Factors that militate against the resolution of grief after relinquishment are discussed. Guidelines for the medical profession that are aimed at preventing psychological disability in relinquishing mothers are outlined.

Community Health Stud. 1990;14(2):180-9.
Related Articles, Links

Erratum in:
• Community Health Stud 1990;14(3):314.

Social factors associated with the decision to relinquish a baby for adoption.

Najman JM, Morrison J, Keeping JD, Andersen MJ, Williams GM.

Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, University of Queensland.

Little is known about the characteristics, social circumstances and mental health of women who give a child up for adoption. This paper reports data from a longitudinal study of 8556 women interviewed initially at their first obstetrical visit. In total, 7668 proceeded to give birth to a live singleton baby, of which 64 then relinquished the baby for adoption. Relinquishing mothers were predominantly 18 years of age or younger, in the lowest family income group, single, having an unplanned and/or unwanted baby and reported that they were not living with a partner. These women were somewhat more likely to manifest symptoms of anxiety and depression both prior, and subsequent to, the adoption, but the majority of relinquishing mothers were of 'normal' mental health. The decision to relinquish a baby appears to be a consequence of an unwanted pregnancy experienced by an economically deprived single mother rather than the result of emotional or psychological/psychiatric considerations. These findings document a particular dimension of the impact of poverty on health.

PEDIATRICS Vol. 108 No. 2 August 2001, p. e30

Adoption as a Risk Factor for Attempted Suicide During Adolescence


Received Dec 27, 2000; accepted Apr 9, 2001.

Gail Slap, Elizabeth Goodman, and Bin Huang
From the Division of Adolescent Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, Children's Hospital Medical Center, University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, Cincinnati, Ohio.

Objective. Depression, impulsivity, and aggression during adolescence have been associated with both adoption and suicidal behavior. Studies of adopted adults suggest that impulsivity, even more than depression, may be an inherited factor that mediates suicidal behavior. However, the association between adoption and adolescent suicide attempts and the mechanisms that might explain it remain unknown. The objective of this study was to determine the following: 1) whether suicide attempts are more common among adolescents who live with adoptive parents rather than biological parents; 2) whether the association is mediated by impulsivity, and 3) whether family connectedness decreases the risk of suicide attempt regardless of adoptive or biological status.

Methods. A secondary analysis of Wave I data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health was conducted, which used a school-based, clustered sampling design to identify a nationally representative sample of 7th- to 12th-grade students, with oversampling of underrepresented groups. Of the 90 118 adolescents who completed the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health in-school survey, 17 125 completed the in-home interview and had parents of identified gender who completed separate in-home questionnaire. The subset of adolescents for this study was drawn from the in-home sampling according to the following criteria: 1) adolescent living with adoptive or biological mother at the time of the interview, 2) adolescent had never been separated from mother for more than 6 months, 3) mother was in first marriage at the time of the interview, and 4) the adoptive mother had never been married to the adolescent's biological father. Of the 6577 adolescents in the final study sample, 214 (3.3%) were living with adoptive mothers and 6363 (96.7%) were living with biological mothers.

Variables. The primary outcome measured was adolescent report of suicide attempt(s) in the past year. Other variables included in the analyses were sociodemographics characteristics (gender, age, race/ethnicity, family income, parental education), general health (self-rated health, routine examination in the past year, need for medical care in the past year that was not obtained), mental health (depressive symptoms, self-image, trouble relaxing in the past year, bad temper, psychological or emotional counseling in the past year), risk behaviors (cigarettes, alcohol, marijuana, sexual intercourse ever, delinquency, physical fighting in the past year, impulsive decision making), school-related characteristics (grade point average, school connectedness), and family interaction (family connectedness, parental presence, maternal satisfaction with parent-adolescent relationship).

Data Analysis. Univariate analyses were used to compare adoptees versus nonadoptees, suicide attempters versus nonsuicide attempters, and adopted suicide attempters versus nonadopted suicide attempters on all variables. Variables that were associated with attempted suicide were entered into a forward stepwise logistic regression procedure, and variables that were associated with the log odds of attempt were retained in the model. The area under the model's receiver operating characteristic curve was calculated as a measure of its overall performance. After the association of adoption with attempted suicide was demonstrated, the potential mediating effect of impulsivity was explored by adding it to the model. The same procedure was followed for any variable that was associated with adoption in the full sample or the subsample of suicide attempters. To determine whether any variable in the model moderated the association between adoption and suicide attempt, the interaction term for that variable × adoption was forced into the model.

Results. Adoptees differed significantly from nonadoptees on 4 of 26 variables. They were more likely to have attempted suicide (7.6% vs 3.1%) and to have received psychological or emotional counseling in the past year (16.9% vs 8.2%), and their mothers reported higher parental education and family income. Attempters differed significantly from nonattempters on all variables except for age, race/ethnicity, parental education, family income, and routine examination in the past year. On logistic regression, 9 variables were independently associated with attempted suicide: depression (adjusted odds ratio : 3.41), counseling (AOR: 2.83), female gender (AOR: 2.31), cigarette use (AOR: 2.31), delinquency (AOR: 2.17), adoption (AOR: 1.98), low self-image (AOR: 1.78), aggression (AOR: 1.48), and high family connectedness (AOR: 0.60). The receiver operating characteristic curve for the model had an area of 0.834, indicating performance significantly better than chance. The AOR for adoption did not change when parental education, family income, and impulsivity were forced into the model. None of the interaction terms (adoption × another risk factor) demonstrated a significant effect.

Conclusions. Attempted suicide is more common among adolescents who live with adoptive parents than among adolescents who live with biological parents. The association persists after adjusting for depression and aggression and is not explained by impulsivity as measured by a self-reported tendency to make decisions quickly. Although the mechanism underlying the association remains unclear, recognizing the adoptive status may help health care providers to identify youths who are at risk and to intervene before a suicide attempt occurs. It is important to note, however, that the great majority of adopted youths do not attempt suicide and that adopted and nonadopted youths in this study did not differ in other aspects of emotional and behavioral health. Furthermore, high family connectedness decreases the likelihood of suicide attempts regardless of adoptive status and represents a protective factor for all adolescents.

If you bothered to read my posts in this thread, I've not bothered to question the fitness of adoptive parents, only if whether many adoptions are really done in the best interests of the child, or merely to satisfy the desires of the adoptive parents.

[ulysses]

138. how would this work?

If you bothered to read my posts in this thread, I've not bothered to question the fitness of adoptive parents, only if whether many adoptions are really done in the best interests of the child, or merely to satisfy the desires of the adoptive parents.

So, adoption is ok if it's done by altruistic people who don't really want children.

[REP]

146. Wow.

If that's the way you wish to take it, well, nothing can stop you. I understand it's late, and maybe you didn't really think about what you were typing, but maybe, just maybe, there's another way to read what I wrote. For example, there are quite a few (well, more than that) children in the care of the state right now who need homes. They're older, darker and maybe sicker than the white male infants that are for sale in private adoptions, but they really need homes. A person who really cared about helping a child, and not just fulfilling their own wants and desires, might consider adopting one of these children instead of hiring an attorney and hoping that a young, poor white woman will be willing to relinquish her newborn at birth.

[ulysses]

149. wow, indeed.

The implied accusation of racism is noted. Nice.

[REP]

153. Not Implied.

Stated.

[ulysses]

154. heh! back it up, then.

:shrug:

[REP]

156. You Do It Yourself With Every Post

Figure it out, champ.

[ulysses]

157. lame.

Back it up.

[ulysses]

141. we'll note this, as well.

It is important to note, however, that the great majority of adopted youths do not attempt suicide and that adopted and nonadopted youths in this study did not differ in other aspects of emotional and behavioral health. Furthermore, high family connectedness decreases the likelihood of suicide attempts regardless of adoptive status and represents a protective factor for all adolescents.

[StoryTeller]

101. Check your facts.

My daughter is from China. I have served as our agency's area representative. I am also a published author and am currently in the process of writing a book about Chinese adoption. I've done the research, and I have a very good understanding of both the positive and negative aspects of international adoption. So if you would like to provide substantiation for your claims, I would be happy to take a look at them. If not, I would like to help you become better informed about the realities of international adoption. I will respond to your points by the numbers:

1) Baby-selling and child kidnapping are indeed a problem in China--but NOT in relation to the internation adoption program. There was an incident in Hunan province about a year ago in which there was an attempt to baby-traffic kidnapped children into an orphanage that participates in international adoption. However, NONE of these children were adopted by foreign families, and the government harshly prosecuted those involved. International adoptions in Hunan were suspended for the past year and are only now preparing to resume. Most child trafficking in China involves unofficial, underground DOMESTIC "adoptions" of boys because of the pressure applied to couples mainly by the husband's parents to have a son.

The China Center for Adoption Affairs is very meticulous and careful about maintaining the integrity of the international adoption program. And while the program does have an affect on domestic adoptions, it is NOT in terms of trafficking or kidnapping.

Other countries also work very hard to crack down on baby trafficking and other related abuses. International adoptions are quickly suspended when such corruption happens, and thanks to the Hague Conventions, there are more and more safeguards in place to prevent these sort of things. NO international adoptive family wants to experience the nightmare of finding out their child, that they've come to love, was not legitimately available for adoption in the first place.

2) Whether or not an international adoptee can have a relationship with their birth family depends wholly on which country they were from. In China, it doesn't matter if the child is adopted domestically or internationally, they will NEVER get to meet their birth parents. First, giving up a child for adoption or abandoning the baby is illegal, so birth parents don't step forward for fear of reprisal. Second, the attitudes about adoptions in China right now are similar to our U.S. attitudes 50-100 years ago--where some domestically adopted children are not even TOLD about the adoption. So it's nowhere near the same situation as domestic open adoptions here in America.

3) Classist or racist? This is EXTREMELY offensive to me. How DARE you presume to know what motivates any family to adopt a child? What gives you the right to pass that judgment on them? Until you have gone through it yourself, you don't have the right to speak.

For your education and information, the main reason that parents seek to adopt outside the U.S. is because they are terrified that a domestic adoption will be "interrupted" by a birth parent changing their minds. Even though this doesn't happen often, there have been enough high profile, sensationalized cases in the past 20 years to make families justifiably frightened of the possibility that after years of bonding with and loving a child, that child could be torn away from them. Another main reason is that often international adoptions are more affordable than private domestic adoptions.

The reason my husband and I adopted from China is that learning that there were children growing up in orphanages, mainly girls who were not wanted by their families, broke our hearts. The foster care system in China is still fledgling, and many orphanages do not have a foster program at all. The orphanages try their best to care for the children, but until recently, domestic adoption was not allowed unless a couple was childless, because it, too, fell under the one-child policy. So the orphanages were crowded, overflowing with children who needed a home. We could not stand the thought of saying, "Aw, that's too bad" and then doing nothing. We are not infertile. And we are perfectly willing to adopt children of any nationality. But the situation of these Chinese children grabbed our hearts, and so that's where we decided to go.

So you can keep your ill-informed opinions on my "racism" or "classism" to yourself. The many, many families I've met who have adopted internationally are moved by compassion and a desire to have a family. We deal with a lot of racist remarks and so do our children. Usually the people are, like yourself, well-meaning. Just ignorant.

4) Again, no offense, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Giving up a baby or abandoning her is NEVER, NEVER an easy decision for any mother to make! It makes me furious that you would even suggest it--as if these kids were kittens or puppies to be bred and given away. Any birth mother would tell you how utterly asinine that comment is.

Furthermore, the majority of abandoned children in China come from rural families, most of whom are not even aware that there is an international adoption program in China. Sometimes, they are abandoned because of extreme poverty. Other times, it is because the couple's parents (usually the husband's parents) are putting a lot of pressure on the couple to try for a boy.

Attitudes in China among younger people are changing--they want to keep their little girls. And there have been some relaxing of the one-child policy in certain areas of China. This is helping the rate of abandonment to decrease. Most of the children that are now in orphanages that participate in the IA program are ones who have various special needs and are not considered adoptable domestically. Chinese families in general have a hard time dealing with any sort of special need or defect such as unsightly birthmarks or cleft palates. The society is not very accepting of these kids, and most families don't have enough money to pay for surgeries or special care that handicapped children need.

There is some discussion of the effect that the IA program is having on the ability of Chinese couples to adopt a "healthy" baby (meaning one who has no special needs or unsightly defects). Because international couples are required to make a $3000 donation to the orphanage, and because this allows the orphanages in the IA program to make much-needed improvements to their facilities and level of care (and NO, there is very little corruption of this system), international couples appear to be given priority in adopting these children. Chinese couples only have to make a donation equivalent to about $400. However, I don't know how all this plays out regarding orphanages NOT in the IA program--and there are many of them.

But it is patently absurd to blame the gender disparity in China on the international adoption program. The IA program has only been around for about 12 years or so. The one-child policy was instituted in the late 1970's. The IA program came about because of the one-child policy, and it is the one-child policy combined with the cultural preference for males that caused the imbalance. These girls would NOT have been raised in a family. They would have been raised in an orphanage.


Please, in the future, refrain from making such offensive, inaccurate, stereotyped remarks. Asking questions from those of us who have actually undertaken this journey would be far more appropriate. We have had to learn a lot in the process and are usually quite willing to share what we've learned with people who are respectful and willing to listen.

Thanks.

[LeftyMom]

114. I do know what the hell I'm talking about.

1. Yes, the Chinese government swears that babies they sell aren't stolen. Of course, they also swear they have no human rights problem, no great issues with pollution and a population that loves thier government, so thier assurances are merely wind. In a country with a known child selling problem, the obligation lies with the government to prove that human trafficking is not taking place, and China has not done so. In fact, the opposite is the case, and it is a proven fact that chinese orphanages sell kidnapped babies to foreign buyers: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-02/27/content_524334.htm

2. When my child's father was given up for adoption, open adoption was not the norm in this country. He still can't legally access his true birth records. (Though he can get the legally falsified ones that identify the wealthy couple that purchased him as his parents, in 2006 the state of Ohio still does not recognize his right to know who his parents are. He knows his mother because she hired PI to find him.) Laws change and can be circumvented. The Chinese child raised in China has some hope of knowing thier family. Raised in the US, they have none. It is a gross injustice to deny anyone knowledge of who they are, and until you've helped an adult adoptee to struggle with that issue you probably don't realize what a key peice of thier identity that deprivation takes away.

3. How concerned are you or other purchasers of foreign children about disabled children or children of color who will never find a family in this country? As I said above, often there are no fees at all for these "hard to place" (which means unwanted) children, and states are so eager to find them homes that they sometimes qualify for other financial incentives such as medical coverage, WIC and food stamps as well, even when the family would not normally qualify. As these children face long waits for homes and often age out of foster care, there is no shortage of children with terminated parental rights by the time they reach the year or two of age at which Chinese children are generally exported.

4. I know perfectly well the pressure mothers face to give up their children. Have you ever held one who regrets the decision three decades later, who has never got over the sense of loss? I have.

As long as China has a safety valve for dealing with unwanted children, and a very lucrative one at that, there is no incentive to change policy. Buying Chinese babies contributes to the problem.

[StoryTeller]

134. No, actually, you don't.

1) I checked the link--it's relating to the Hunan incident from 2005. A first of its kind, in that the kids were headed to an orphanage in the IA program. The article is dead wrong that any of the babies were adopted internationally. Sorry, it's just not true. If you are determined to considered internationally adopted children "sold" that's your own problem. Anyone who wants to see an accounting of where every single penny in an international adoption goes is welcome to PM me. If you are determined to believe that China actually pays women to give up their babies for the IA program, again, I can't help that. It's rather absurd, though, to insist on believing something that has no basis in reality.

Babies ARE bought and trafficked in China. But as I've posted before, in the vast majority of cases (Hunan 2005 excluded) it is a DOMESTIC issue unrelated to the IA program. So get that notion out of your head.

A good link with some verifiable research, including primary sources, is here: http://research-china.blogspot.com/

You'll find information on Hunan as well as a lot of the other things you've written incorrectly about.

2) The Chinese child has some hope of finding her family (if raised in China)??? In a country of several BILLION people? When birth parents face imprisonment and loss of jobs if they admit to having given up a child? Where there is not the infrastructure for genetic testing? When LARGE portions of every city's population is MIGRANT? Where the social dynamics put an enormous pressure on birth parents NOT to be found? Are you crazy? Get real!

I actually would LOVE to be able to find my daughter's birth parents. I would love to give her that gift. But at this point, it is just plain not within the realm of possibility. On the China-Research link above, you'll find that he was able to interview two birth moms. I believe it's possible that he tracked down the adoptive families for those two children, though I don't know what might have happened from there. But that is extremely RARE. You can't compare China to the U.S. in this regard--it's two totally different scenarios.

3) Concern about children of color and special needs children in the U.S.--considering that I have THREE adopted siblings who have special needs (one who had Down Syndrome and died when she was 1 year old, one who is a paraplegic with Fetal Alchohol Syndrome, and one who has Down Syndrome and schizophrenia)my concern is real, deep, and personal. It angers me that a private adoption of a healthy Caucasian baby in the U.S. can cost over $30K when adopting bi-racial or African American children and special needs children is much more affordable and parents aren't willing to do it.

However, I do NOT believe that children of any race or ethnicity or special need are more important or deserving of a family than children in a different country. EVERY child deserves a home. It is deeply troubling to me that many people in the U.S. seem to feel that it is more important to adopt domestically than internationally. Do you really think U.S. children are more valuable or important? We felt that for us, adopting from China was the right decision at that time. That is all the explanation that we owe you or anyone else. It ought to be enough.

4) I have three good friends who are birth moms. They all feel differently about their decision to place their children for adoption. So yes, I can share your experience in that.

Your final comment is so uninformed, and since I've already given a thorough, factual response to it elsewhere in this thread, I am just going to bypass it. You seem very bitter and resentful about adoption, and I'm sorry for that. I'm sure there's an understandable reason for it, but it's unfortunate that it is preventing you from having a more balanced perspective.

[LeftyMom]

160. So you say, but you have a vested interest in that viewpoint.

1. You said no babies offered in Chinese adoptions were victims of human trafficking. I provided documentation that that's untrue from a Chinese Govenment Newspaper. Oh, you said, that's an isolated incident. (Nevermind that a few posts ago it was an impossibility when you apparently already knew about this.) You've moved the goalpost from "it never happens" to "it's rare, most of the babies aren't stolen." Now, you direct me to a blog, as if that's a credible source. Any asshole can have a blog. Hell, I have one at blogspot too, if that tells you anything. ;)

2. Will the laws change someday? Maybe, we know they have here and in many other places. Do we know that Chinese adoption officials, like Chinese officials generally, are corruptible and suceptible to bribes? Certainly. Is there some hope? Yeah, provided that the child is in China and speaks at least one Chinese dialect. They certainly aren't going to track down thier birth mothers from someplace in the Bible Belt.

3. Yeah, we all want all children to have a home. But adopting internationally when so many kids lack homes here makes no sense. It's like going to the shelter when there's a stray dog living under your porch to pass up the children most immediately in need of help in favor of another so far away. And yes, when there's such a clear line of demarcation between the appearance of unwanted American children and wanted American and foreign children, the conclusion about what that means is obvious whether you will it or no. Apparently the Chinese baby traders know it too, they pay more for light skinned babies and less for ones with dark skin or small eyes (those would be the ones that look more obviously Chinese.)

Finally, I think what's missing from this conversation is a discussion about the child's best interest. I don't see how it's healthy, knowing what we do today about attatchment and it's lasting import in development, to take a child away from the only caregivers she's ever known, hand her to a set of strangers who look, smell and sound like no person she's ever encountered and to send her off with a wave. Toddlerhood is difficult under the best of circumstances, to take the child's world, thier emerging ability to communicate and thier budding understanding and turn it all on it's head just at they think they're starting to get it is simply cruel.

[StoryTeller]

171. I've covered these points already.

The first post I made in this thread, I specifically mentioned the Hunan incident. Go back and read it.

The link I gave you is the blog portion of a researcher of Chinese adoption. If you'd actually read it instead of turning your nose up at it, you might actually find that his research is very insightful. It will show you what some of the REAL problems are with at least Chinese adoption. They're not quite the same as what you insist on believing. At least if you're determined to have this sort of antipathy about it, you might as well direct your ire at legitimate issues.

As far as the domestic/international issue, to me, it makes perfect sense. Some families are drawn to domestic adoptions. Some are drawn to a foreign country. Either way, a child somewhere ends up with a family he or she would otherwise not have had. I'll give the same challenge to you that I give other people who are hung up on this issue: If you are sincerely, deeply THAT concerned about the plight of children in the U.S. who are waiting for an adoptive family, PLEASE take action and open your heart and home to that child. Or at least become a foster family. If it isn't really that important to you to take action yourself, then stop your bitching and let the rest of us do what we need to do with our lives in order to bring justice to a child.

Best interest of the child? No question--a loving birth-family who has the means to care for their children. In the absence of that, I firmly believe that every orphaned or parentless child desperately needs a loving, dedicated family--regardless of race or culture. Attachment and bonding are not connected to birth culture. They are affected primarily by the age of child at adoption, the length of time the child has been institutionalized, and the treatment of the child prior to adoption (birth trauma, prenatal care, post natal care, etc.) Both bonding and attachment can be facilitated and encouraged by an educated adoptive parent, and when there are problems with either one, there is help and interventions available.

Yes, there are challenges in taking a child from one culture to another. This is why the Hague Conventions regarding adoption stipulate that efforts need to be made to place children in their birth country. Most countries involved in the international adoption process are taking positive steps toward making this a reality. But to this point, at least in China, this hasn't been possible.

Life in an orphanage--even the best ones--is not "best" for ANY child. Institutionalized children are at higher risk for attachment disorders (which affect ALL relationships throughout life, not just parent-child. I have an adopted brother with reactive attachment disorder. It's tragic and debilitating.) and almost uniformly experience developmental delays. They also frequently develop sensory integration issues because of lack of stimulation in the first few months of life. They have poorer nutrition and do not have access to adequate medical attention. They usually will not have the educational opportunities they would in a family, and in some cases will be limited in career choices because of lack of education or because of social stigma. In some countries, orphans end up in prostitution or as "non-citizens" because they lack the necessary family connections and paperwork to be counted as full-fledged citizens.

I've already documented the ways in which, in China's case, international adoption helps not just that child, but all the other children as well. I know similar things are happening in other countries, too.

So if it comes down to a child having to face the transition from one culture to a new one (a transition I have personally experienced with my daughter and know what it's like) or spending an entire childhood in an orphanage and facing adulthood without a family, I firmly believe that it IS in the best interest of the child to be able to have a family who will love him or her and be there to support them in the challenges they face.

I've said all I'm going to say on this subject. I don't expect to change your mind, LeftyMom, but I hope that other people reading this have a more accurate picture now of what international adoption involves. If any of you have honest questions for me about it, please PM me. But I don't see any point in continuing this debate with someone who lacks the credentials and personal experience to pose legitimate arguments.

[REP]

85. I'm With You On That

[catabryna]

164. Wowsers!

I just read this thread and I'm in complete shock at the tone of some of these posts. As an adoptive mom of a child from Ukraine I'm appalled to see this thread on DU. My child has special needs and was only relinquished for adoption because the resources needed by his birthparents (who btw are married and have other children in the home) to care for him were close to non-existent in his birth country. Now, I am certainly no saint, nor do I even want that status because what we chose to do was not at all special, but I'm far from a vile human being. My husband and I just wanted to have a child to raise and love and we didn't want to spend thousands of dollars for medical intervention that might not be successful.

We didn't even know the identity of the child my husband (now deceased) and I would eventually adopt when we traveled and we didn't line the pockets of any agency... we adopted independently and we traveled blind to the country from which ancestors from both sides of our family had fled during times of starvation and persecution. As we sat in the dingy offices of the government's adoption center with a translator, we were shown the picture of a little baby crying and, as scary as that picture appeared to us at first sight, we were drawn to that child and went to see him. This little boy, who had a correctable birth defect, was placed in an invalid room in a huge crib with other handicapped children and his life, as well as those of the rest of the children who surrounded him, was considered worthless. Until you have picked up a 17 month old child who weighs a mere 12 lbs. and look into his eyes and know that if you leave him there he will likely starve to death, I don't think it's appropriate to judge anyone's intentions. We were fortunate. We were hardly elite. We were just regular middle class folks who happened to have good enough health insurance to provide for the medical care this kid needed. Others had turned him down, but in the grand scheme of things, that is what was supposed to happen because he was meant to be our son and we were meant to be his parents.

As far as contact with birthfamilies and support of those kids left behind... I have located the birthparents and there has been ongoing communication for a couple of years. It's not as difficult as it might seem to bridge the language differences. In addition, we try to, at least in some small way, help the orphanage and all the children who are likely to languish in their circumstances. It's the least we could do for the people who did they best they could do with their limited resources and those children who have absolutely no say in their fate.

So, am I being overly-sensitive? Probably. I know that we did no wrong. In spite of that, my attempts to ignore this thread failed and, I just couldn't help but throw myself in front of this moving bus. Probably to my folly...

[fudge stripe cookays]

172. I applaud you, cat.

And Uly, and Madonna, and anyone else who wants to adopt a baby. Domestic or otherwise.

This thread is completely disgusting.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

4. Do you know for a fact that she hasn't donated money to their aid as well?

Consider that before you pass judgement. I, for one, find nothing wrong with celebrities adopting children from the third world.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Actually she has donated time and money, LOTS of money

to Africa for HIV/AIDS assistance. She was there in Africa on a tour to promote awareness for the charity (Raising Malawi).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061009/music_nm/malawi_madonna_dc

I'm assuming she connected with one of the children while she was there and decided to take a pro-active move. Frankly, I applaud anyone who is willing to take on an international adoption.

[lukasahero]

17. Thank you

People should really know what the bleep they're talking about before they start crapping on people. Geez.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

19. Thank you.

I was pretty positive that she had donated money to AIDS assistance in Africa before.

I'm with you. I'm all for anyone deciding to adopt a child in need, regardless of their race/nationality. The only thing I find disgusting is people who bash those that do.

[radwriter0555]

86. She's also donating more than 3 MILLION dollars to the child's village and

is funding schools and health care.

Madge ROCKS.

I think it's far, far more generous to provide a home to a child in need than to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get pregnant.

[rubberducky]

6. It`s so sad to see these poor children being used like........

a fashion accessory.

[seabeyond]

18. really? you know they arent being loved? or just passing judgment

without any information. just guesses. that is pretty sad too

i have watched her with her children, and have listened to her often, and watched the change come over her having had kids. no where do i see an inability to love. and to love..... is far and beyond any monetary ability.

[radwriter0555]

87. Based on what actions exactly?

How would you say any of her children, or anyone else's are being used as an accessory?

[Demeter]

7. One or Two Kids Can Be Farmed Out to Nannies

Running a country in Africa is Hard Work! (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

[graywarrior]

8. I figure it's none of my business

And the story bores me, and I don't give a rats ass. What I don't understand is why black parents don't adopt white children. Or if they have, I never hear about it.

[Swamp Rat]

43. Leave our asses out of it!

:D

[CatWoman]

50. but.....but....

I wanna pinch it!!

:hi:

[Swamp Rat]

57. Like Hastert did to Bushler?

:D :hi:

[CatWoman]

60. hahahahahahaha

good one :)

[JI7]

104. i have heard of some black parents adopting white children

although the white children usually had some disability or something else which required special care, or were older.

but overall i think it goes back to black healthy babies being more easily available to adopt. and just as white parents or any other would look to their own race the black parents probably do the same.

one reason for foreign adoptions may be that it's just easier than in America. i don't think most people who adopt think of doing it out of kindness but rather just wanting to start a family. and for whatever reason they wont or can't do it by giving birth on their own. i know some older parents who adopt kids after their kids turn into adults and move out. they are just the type that love having kids around.

in Madonna's case i think part of it might just be doing good. but as others aid she has also given a lot to charity. i saw a post that said she may have connected with this particular child which makes sense. Cindy McCain did the same with her daughter.

[blue cat]

9. Digusting?

I have been a pediatric nurse for over 20 years and I have admired everyone that I have known that has adopted a child from another country, and none of them were celibrities.

[seabeyond]

10. do you know she hasnt given any money to "improve the lives "

of poor?

not that i am a madonna fan, and wish her and hte baby the best in the lives as they go forward, i would want nothing less for that baby.....

but how can you claim she is not helping. i dont know that. do you. celebrities are pretty good about sharing their money. and i think this whole to do on this thread and another is bad form, personally

[riderinthestorm]

16. She has and does put her money where her mouth is. See above post. nt

[seabeyond]

23. i saw that. i dont get why people chose to attack others

not knowing anything about what is happening in their lives, deciding the ugliest about them, for no reason

and i really dont care about this woman. but thank you for sharing all she has done for others. i am bothered by this thread even more now.

[nam78_two]

11. woah

Maybe its the fact that I have family in third world countries and I have seen the kind of lives poor people there lead, but overall whatever the intention, the life the kid would have would certainly be better than the one they would have if left there...:shrug:

I agree that if the motivation is just a "fashion accessory" and the kid gets discarded it would suck but I can't read people's minds...on the face of it its a good thing to do-it makes someone's life better. There is a lot of poverty and disease in many such countries...

Its certainly a lot less offensive than many other things celebrities do-fur promotion and well-I don't follow too much celeb stuff but errr other things like that ;).

And I certainly don't see why its bad if non-celebs do it either :shrug: -I plan to adopt some day and it won't be because I need a "fashion accessory"-it will be because:1)It will change someone's life for the better and 2) I would like a child someday and I think the world has an over-population problem and adoption seems a better option to me in that sense-and I don't really care if the kid has my DNA or not :-/ , my DNA could mean some of my traits ;)......

I agree that if they could use their money for productive causes it would be a good thing though...

[driver8]

12. I think anyone who adopts a child and loves and cares for that

child is doing a wonderful thing.

Who knows why people do things? She is making that child's life better, and that is what is important.

[msongs]

13. yes it's better that THE KIDS DIE instead so YOU will be happy nt

[calico1]

15. First of all you don't know if Madonna

has donated money to better the lives of people or not, or do you? Because if you do I'd like a link. I am not a fan of hers but I would rather she spend money "buying" a child and giving them a better life than to just buy a few dozen more cars or homes. Good grief. Witih all the misery in the world now we complain because some child is going to god forbid have a better life? Oh, the humanity! :eyes:

[nam78_two]

25. Strange thing to be disgusted by for sure

Specially right now...with the mass carnage, suffering, poverty and misery in the world.

The Celebtainment industry is another one that has a lot of people getting there priorities mixed up imo...(Not the OP-I don't know him/her or why they feel this way). But I have a coworker who follows this crap intensely and is always bitching about bad celeb behavior-they did this, they spent that much, their wedding was this lavish...

I wish she had as much moral outrage over the Downing Street Memo or Abu Ghraib or EPA's actions etc. etc. etc. :eyes:

And very boring and pointless stuff too this...can't understand the interest in someone else's life-specially if its not someone like Rummy or Bush who impact so many lives around the globe :-/....

[Kahuna]

20. I bet those kids don't think it's disgusting.

Neither do I.

[JI7]

140. exactly

[conflictgirl]

21. I think it's a good thing

Even if they're doing it because they think it's trendy or if it's for less than genuine reasons, it still gives those children a chance at a better life. We don't know that Madonna hasn't donated money to the country from which she adopted a child. I know at least that Angelina Jolie adopted her son from Cambodia (I think it was Cambodia??) and she has actually done a lot for the people there.

I personally think that MORE people should adopt children from third-world countries and share some of their American wealth, because even middle-class people will probably have a higher standard of living than most in the third world. I don't support taking children away from their parents involuntarily, but if the parents are already planning to give up their child or the child's parents are dead, then by all means let people adopt them. There are so many people that I have known over the years who wanted to adopt, and were on years-long waiting lists because they were insistent on adopting a healthy, white infant. If people were more open to adopting children of other backgrounds who needed an opportunity for a better life, things would be so much better.

A good deed done for selfish reasons is still a good deed in the eyes of the recipient.

[MattPSU]

36. Yes we do know...

I agree with you, and yes, we do know that Madonna has donated money to help relieve the plight of orphans in Malawi and is not "just helping this one child" as some allege. For those who demand links:

Madonna helps 400 kids

"Construction began on Sunday on a children's home for Aids orphans being built in Malawi with the help of a donation from Madonna, who is visiting the southern African nation."

Madonna in Malawi to inspect AIDS orpans project

"Madonna, who has two children of her own, has pumped five million dollars into various programmes for poor children, including the construction of an orphanage centre in Mchinji, 115 kilometres (72 miles) east of Lilongwe."

Raising Malawi

"All proceeds from Madonna's new children's book to be donated to Raising Malawi."

etc.

Be aware also, naysayers, that Madonna does not need to go on charitable expeditions to Africa to garner publicity. The press reports on her doings regardless; such mundane things as taking a bike ride or having a pint at her local pub make for tabloid fodder.

[conflictgirl]

52. Thanks for that information!

I know she has done a lot over the years to help AIDS charities, so this doesn't surprise me. :)

[Selatius]

22. You would have to tell me you know the reason she adopted the child

If you've got evidence that she's only adopting the child for selfish reasons as opposed to selfless reasons, then I'd like to see it.

[LWolf]

24. Why do people have children?

Adopted or not?

Is it altruistic? They want to nurture new life, and leave behind a generation that will make the world a better place?

Is it narcissistic? They want something to showcase their greatness, to garner positive attention through their children?

Is it desire for immortality? They want a piece of themselves to continue?

Is it loneliness, a need for connection to others?

Is it a power play, wanting to create a family where THEY can be in charge and make the rules, they get to be the boss?

Are they worried about the continuity of the species, or of their particular "group" within that species?

Are the kids a weapon to use against someone, or a tool to provide some wanted commodity?

Are they an afterthought, a product of an irresponsible sex life?

I've seen people choose to have children, biologically or by adopting, for all of those reasons.


Why would celebrities be any different than anyone else? They just have more resources, and require or gather more attention, than the rest of us.

[wtmusic]

31. Because it's extremely fulfilling

on many levels.

Of all the parents I know none of them fall into your classifications, but I'm sure there are some.

[riderinthestorm]

35. My children are the result of the pill and a diaphragm

:crazy:

Yup, failed bc. Twice. I finally got my tubes tied and my husband has a vasectomy to be sure.

Beyond that though, now that I've got them, I can't imagine life without them. They enrich my life beyond measure - their joy in learning, their inquisitiveness takes me out of my own comfort zone, their love, their unfailing good humor, their hugs and kisses - wow.

I believe people love to have children for many different reasons but primarily because it enriches our own lives immeasurably, our lives become so different.

This is not to say that those without children can't find the same things in other ways but there is this way. And it is good.

[bowens43]

27. You are making a LOT of unsubstantiated assumptions.

[Journeyman]

28. Every day -- EVERY DAY -- 9,500 children die worldwide. . .

because of lack of water or, more common, because of diseases caused by polluted water.* Every day. That's 3.5 million wasted lives every year.

Whenever I'm tempted to grow angry at something in the news, I reflect on situations such as this and it helps me to realize how inconsequential, how petty, some of my concerns can be, and I re-dedicate myself to -- if not solve some the world's insolvable problems, to at least keep myself focused on what's important.

*Tapped Out: The Coming World Crisis in Water and What We Can Do About It, by Senator Paul Simon (D-Illinois)

[Disturbed]

30. Is adopting children in America

a whole lot more difficult to do than doing so in other countries?

Remember the now Chief Justice Roberts and his wife adopted two children from South America?

[AspenRose]

42. IIRC...they were from Ireland

eom

[Divernan]

44. They adopted 2 Irish kids, and circumvented Irish law to do it.

Justice Roberts Irish Catholic, 40-something wife (they got married late) decided against using a fertility clinic because the Catholic church considers clinic methods to be abortion (discarding fertilized eggs, etc.). His wife is rabidly Irish Catholic - step dancing lessons throughout her childhood, etc., and wanted to get some lovely blond, blue-eyed Irish kids.

The problem was that there are very few children available for adoption in Ireland, and the Irish government doesn't want them adopted by people who will take them to other countries and away from their culture. So there's an Irish law that adoptive parents must have lived (primary residence) in Ireland for at least a year before applying to adopt. So what the two Roberts did (both of them lawyers) was to pay two Irish women who had babies within a few months of each other to keep the babies and then take the babies to a Latin American country which allowed foreign adoption. The Roberts went there and adopted the Irish children and brought them back to the US.

So, NO, our unethical Chief Justice & his wife didn't adopt 3rd world children. As a lawyer, I am horrifed and disgusted that a man who see the laws of another country as something to be circumvented was named Chief Justice.

[sandnsea]

32. Caring about Africa is just a liberal fad

Okay, I'm starting to hear right wing buzz. I don't know where this came from, but twice in one day is a bit suspicious to me.

[cushla_machree]

33. I guess its not trendy to adopt kids here in america

Im all for adopting kids, but instead of collecting children from around the world..maybe throw in some poor kid that is being tossing around the US foster system.

[nam78_two]

37. This thread is really starting to depress me

Why attribute the worst motives to people that are adopting children from the third world.
"Trendy", "fashionable"?

Maybe just maybe those people could feel that children in those countries could just conceivably have a smaller chance of getting into a foster home, maybe just maybe they felt sorry seeing the disease and poverty some of them are subjected to-it doesn't have to mean they are looking down their noses at orphans here....what a conclusion to draw!

Man those poor kids...I wonder jut how many people regard them as these little toys or trinkets and sneer at their adoptive parents without knowing what the deal is :(...

It seems like every person adopting kids from the third world must be some shallow, narcissistic horrible human being...What a target for misanthropy....

This thread is very depressing...

And someone up thread says why are black people not adopting white children....man.....

[Horse with no Name]

53. Perhaps because of her "star" personna

Madonna cannot move about freely in this country and do things with the kids you speak of.
However, she spends a great deal of time and money in Africa doing genuinely good things. Do ya think that possibly she just wanted to make a permanent difference in ONE life?

[LostInAnomie]

63. American kids aren't exotic enough for the jet set class.

Oh wait, I forgot that they are doing it for purely altruistic reasons. How cynical of me to think that people who put out a press release for every decent thing they do might have some ulterior motive.

[seabeyond]

81. How cynical of me ..........pretty cynical n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. I don't think she needs to put out a press release.

I think the press does more than enough releasing on their own.

:eyes:

[redherring]

34. Uh, why is it disgusting?

I don't care about why these celebs adopt children from third world countries, but are you telling me that they would have it better had they not been adopted? Of course their lives will suck. I can bet that these children come from poor backgrounds.
It doesn't matter why they adopt these children, because the fact is that these children will lead happier lives in the US of A.

[in_cog_ni_to]

38. Isn't she opening an AIDS clinic in Malawi? I'm sure I heard that on the

news. She IS helping the people and the country and now ONE baby will have a wonderful life instead of living his life in an orphanage. Any time a child can be adopted, it's a GOOD thing.

[newportdadde]

40. Wonder if she will teach the kid her newly found British accent.

[demwing]

41. Some People Look At The Moon

and see a beautiful sight, reflecting light into the dark of night, glowing, effulgent, and inspiring.

Some people see a big rock, full of pockmarks, with no light of its own.

[Toucano]

99. Well said. n/t

[ikojo]

46. Celebrities have a lot of money...but how is what they

are doing any different from upper middle class people flying to China or South America to adopt a kid? Aren't they also buying a kid for a sum that could do good for more people than one child?

[LostInAnomie]

80. Well...

... like I've said in a few other posts, I forgot to include the fact that the child has a father (his mother died in labor) in the OP. If she really wanted to do a good deed she could have given money to ensure that the child had a good life free of hunger and need. Instead, she spent money greasing palms to speed up the adoption process. I'm sure she can provide a luxurious life to the child but he still will not be with his father.

It smacks of exploitation to me.

[Horse with no Name]

47. Madonna is actually a pretty good mother

She writes children's books and does some good things with other charities.
She isn't just he flaky pop star anymore.
I assume you are also speaking of Angelina Jolie who has also adopted children from 3rd world countries. Here is a woman who goes into these villages and gives money and WORKS. She did it long before she was recognized nationally for it.
Having a problem with celebrities or wealthy people adopting children from these countries really does show an ugly, elitest side. These children who had nothing will now have a life of opportunity that didn't exist before.
How is that a bad thing?

[nam78_two]

51. Thanks

My family is of East Indian origin and I know one shouldn't take these things personally but I am really looking up this thread and seeing what I am almost feel is contempt for "those" people in third world countries....

No one could adopt one of those kids and actually love them? Are they not human...can only American children be legitimately loved?
Maybe I am being over sensitive...but this thread is horribly depressing... its like Freeper land....

Specially the many many many iterations on the theme of why not adopt from this country? Dear God are they envious of those poor kids in those countries with no food, shelter, medical aid etc.? Is it some statement of contempt for American orphans if you adopt from a poorer country?

[Horse with no Name]

54. You aren't being overly sensitive

There is a very elitest tone in this thread.

[nam78_two]

55. Thank you-thought it was there

Oh well -I was called an Arab whore in Detroit the other day-no point being sensitive about this....
Its just sad though...

[Horse with no Name]

58. I am sorry for what our country is becoming

and I am sorry you have to experience the ugly side of it firsthand.
:hug:

[nam78_two]

62. Thank you so much for your posts

They give me hope :hug:

And seabeyond's posts up thread are also heartening..
Good night :).

[seabeyond]

82. actually looking up this thread, a strong majority doesnt have jaded

view and not seeing the very worst we are as people. i see a lot of grace in a lot of the posts. but i do understand what you are saying. it isnt your world, living in such darkness, creating people as evil, when it isnt necessary. really,.... how sad is that?

[nam78_two]

91. Egads this train-wreck thread is still around

Thanks for your comments in this thread....they are some of the kindest along with HWNN...
And yes there are lots of nice ones....And while I don't agree with Lefty Mom's thesis I think its well-intentioned.

The awful ones stand out though...

The constant drum-beat of "only adopt American" is amazing to me-specially coming from a few who admit they don't plan to adopt but will judge those that do? They want to sneer at those who would help out disadvantaged children from a poorer country-have they at least adopted American children
themselves or do they just want to tell people who are actually doing something positive how they think it should be done?
Maybe some of them have adopted American children and feel strongly about it but I think I will take the asshole approach with regard to them they take towards these adoptive parents and assume they just have arm-chair activism advice...

Anyway my program is done running and I am actually going to bed now :).
Thanks for your comments again :hug: and for confronting all the crap on this thread...

[Dem2theMax]

56. I come to this question with a bit of a prejudice.

For one, I am adopted. Add in the fact that my father was basically dumped into an orphanage and taken out to 'play' now and then when his father felt like being a 'father.'

So I can pretty strongly say that HELL NO, I don't agree with you.

On top of that, your post is full of assumption, not fact.

Giving a child a home, is well, GIVING A CHILD A HOME.

[nam78_two]

59. No-its only the black/brown and chinese ones from the third world

The "exotic" ones that are a problem I think.

Looking over many of these messages now I think the problem is not about ANY adoption...

Its only little black, brown and chinese babies who are also from some poor third world country that are a problem.
Apparently one's race and country are still very important even to some progressives :-/

I wish Stephen Colbert who "doesn't see color" (in this case country as well) was around...;-(

Anyway I am quitting this thread-very unproductive and personally hurtful. These elitist attitudes on a liberal web-site are particularly hurtful.

Oh well I am updating my ignore list and moving on...all said and done this is still not Freeper Land and there have to people on here that don't agree with the stuff on this thread. I see a few up thread and am grateful for it.
I hope no non-white child that was adopted by white parents happens on this thread -it would suck to think that its an acceptable thought on a liberal site that they are just an accessory...No actual information needed-if you are black/brown/chinese and adopted from a non-american country, you must just be a prop....no one could actually love you after all....

ugh..shouldn't be so affected by a stupid message board...

There is a lot of racial insensitivity in this thread.

[JI7]

166. i agree

i get the same sense from some who are so "concerned".

[progressivebydesign]

61. Mixed emotions on it...

I do think the whole circus of celebs adopting orphans from other countries makes it seem as though they're adding an accessory, because it's the in thing to do.

On the other hand, I suppose one less child living in an orphanage is a good thing. Madonna is giving millions for an orphanage center down there for many kids, so that's good.

I can't help but think of all of the kids waiting and waiting for adoption here in America... who will turn 18 in the system.

[Truthiness Inspector]

64. I agree, but only to a point

Anyone who adopts a child in good faith is to be commended.

The fact that Madonna picked a baby who had relatives who are alive but too poor to raise him is what is sickening to me. She could have helped that family raise their child. She could have adopted one of the many orphaned babies instead, and that would have been a beautiful thing.

[LostInAnomie]

69. That was essentially the point I was trying to make.

I forgot to add in the OP that the child had parents (at least a father that I know of). The money she spent trying to expedite the process would have gone a long way in helping the family provide a good life to the child. A lot of the people in this thread instinctively assume because she is wealthy beyond measure that she will provide a better life, but it is not about money in the long run.

[hsher]

68. Unsure what to think, but...

A person who can't be trusted to make mature dating decisions (i.e., marrying another person less than a few weeks after meeting them on a set), and who cannot make an independent decision without the complete control of an agent or manager is less than an ideal parent, I think, for a child from a needy Third World setting, much less any other child from a more developed nation.

There are so many children here in the U.S. who need parents. And having lived and worked in the film industry in Los Angeles for almost two decades, I confess I observed A LOT of "children as designer accessories" going on there. It nauseated me.

But little about celebrity actors doesn't! :)

[hsher]

72. P.S., is it me, or does Suri Cruise look...

... Irish? As in ethnically, nationally Irish? Not American?

My mom taught European immigrant kindergartners and Pre-Ks for a living. There is a visual difference between American and European children. That child looks about as American as a sporran, a bowl of haggis, or a thistle of Irish heather.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. It'll Never Cease To Amaze Me The New Things Some Will Find To Rage About.

I applaud Madonna on doing this. No one forced her to. I applaud anyone who reaches out and adopts in such ways, and I'll be damned if I give credence to the logic whatsoever that this behavior was somehow 'disgusting'.

Why on Earth this is something you find offensive is an enigma to me. This child will have a better life. That's all that matters. I don't give a shit who is doing the adopting or how, as long as they give that child love and an opportunity for a better life. Like I said, I applaud her, and God bless them.

[LostInAnomie]

77. Maybe because the child has a father.

Instead of providing the father with money to provide a decent life for his child she thought it would be better to spend her money to grease some palms and expedite the adoption. That's why she doesn't have to live in the community for two years like the local law says.

Oh, but maybe I'm being too cynical. I mean it's not like she is some kind of attention whore, or puts out a press release every time she does anything.

[seabeyond]

84. do you know anything about the situation

do you know if the father wanted the child. did you hear any of the conversation. any of the reasoning for the decision making in this situation. i cannot even imagine a cold hearted madonna ripping the child from the fathers arms,cruel laughter ringing out, mocking the father as she leaves with the child he so desperately wants ..... what??????? is that your story?

you judge without information. totally immature, totally irresponsible, ...... and shameful. then you have the audacity, going beyond your behavior to judge another persons motive and behavior. might try a little reflecting.

[LostInAnomie]

127. Oh please, save your self-righteous hyperbole

You managed to make a ridiculous exaggeration, and call me immature, irresponsible, and shameful all in the same post. Using your twisted logic it would be safe to also call the father a cold hearted monster looking to sell his child off to the highest bidder. The truth is somewhere in between.

My guess, since he wants her to bring the child back to see him is that he still wants to be in the child's life but does not feel that he can provide for him. With the mother being dead the father was placed in an intractably difficult situation and probably saw a way out.

My assertion is that instead of removing the child from the father's home it would be the more altruistic thing to provide for the child and father's well being. Instead of reading my other posts and deciphering that for yourself you decided to take the low road by name calling, and calling into question my morality. Talk about shameful.

[Erika]

110. This is close to child theft by the rich

of the kids born to the poor. It does reek of slavery.

[AZBlue]

93. Well said! Took the words right out of my mouth.

eom

[earth mom]

74. It doesn't bother me when it's someone I respect and admire like Angelina

Jolie.

But IMO, Madonna is superficial and fake and no amount of religion or charity she advertises that she does will change my mind. I think it's because during an interview a couple of years ago she said it took her finding religion to understand what it meant to care about others or have compassion or something like that. I was just stunned, because isn't compassion and caring about others supposed to come naturally from the heart? Otherwise, it's all just an act.

That being said, I wish the child well and hope it all works out for his sake.

[radwriter0555]

90. What's fake and artificial about Madonna? She's an astounding talent,

very generous, a fantastic mother, an excellent business woman...

She's never been drunk, stoned or busted at the velvet ropes doing ANYTHING untoward. She's honest, ethical, one of the hardest working people in show business.. She's generous to a fault, has GREAT taste, and damn can she dance.

I don't get the Madonna bashing. She's an icon, a self made woman who's always been her own influence.

Girls today could learn a LOT from this amazing, talented woman.

[Toucano]

100. Jesus Fucking Christ!

Jolie is a talentless WHORE!

What is there to respect and admire?

Did you see "Taking Lives"?

She allows a woman, who should be a character of power, to be contorted into a lip injected, boob injected twat! She chose to accept that role, she chose to accept that direction. The message she chose to send is a powerful woman is nothing but a whole for a man's prick.

There is not a GRAM of difference between the worst of Angelina Jolie and the worst of Madonna.

I can't believe ANYONE could think Jolie is morally superior to Madonna. Last time I checked, Madonna's tits and lips were her own, by the way.

[JI7]

136. Angelina's "lips and tits" are her own also

i saw pics of her when she was a kid and she has the same lips . she naturally has feutures that are large.

[951-Riverside]

79. I agree with you LostInAnomie

The whole thing just doesn't smell right to me and quite frankly it leaves the aftertaste of "slavery".

[ShaneGR]

92. Let these kids rot....

They should never be adopted from these poor villages. I hope they're never adopted, get aids, and die a horrible death.

/sarcasm off

[Cleita]

95. I don't know. How do you know what her motives are?

Why is it so evil to give a child, who would probably grow up in deprivation, a life of privilege and wealth? Yes, maybe she could adopt a village but then everyone would want one.

[Toucano]

97. I do not share you disgust.

I think every good thing should be acknowledged as a good thing.

Madonna saved one orphan. Many non-celebrities do the same thing. It all starts with ONE.

Money isn't the solution for all of Africa's problems, and Madonna (and others) have tried in earnest to make a difference in the global political climate.

The publicity helps raise awareness. It's isn't a fashion accessory, although I understand why one might interpret it as such.

[Erika]

107. Why didn't she offer financial support to the father?

Rather than taking his child?

[Horse with no Name]

112. Maybe he didn't want the child?

:shrug:It's hard to speculate about that.

[Erika]

119. The father met with the adoptive parents

because he did care. He simply did not have the means to raise the child and the mother had died.

Madonna should have helped him rather than take his baby.

[Toucano]

116. Did the father want the child?

I am sorry but I don't know.

If there's a link to the details that outline that, I would appreciate it.

Westerners always think dumping money is the solution. Sometimes, money actually causes more problems than it solves, especially if it's just given willy-nilly, without a system in place to help the money do the work it's intended to do.

[Erika]

117. Yes, the father wanted and cared about the child

The mother had died. No I don't right now have the links.

[Toucano]

120. No links is okay.

Where did you hear that?

[Erika]

122. Probably on CNN

But I saw the interview with the father on Cable last night. I 100% believe that the little boy is best off with his father. It turns me off totally that she knew of his financial straits and took the child rather than help him.

This is a world wide practice. Give the child to someone of superior means and the heck with helping the parent(s) to raise the child.

[AZBlue]

98. It bears repeating: she HAS donated money to Malawi. A LOT of money.

She's setting up an orphanage & child care center to house, educate and raise 4,000 children. Her last tour included donation information and sites for fundraising, encouraging all her fans to donate. Check out the site: http://www.raisingmalawi.org/rm/home.html.

[Toucano]

103. Actually, your use of the term "third world" is far more disgusting. n/t

[Erika]

105. If Madonna wanted to do a truly loving act

Why didn't she give the father the $ and help to raise his son?

So many times, children are given up for adoption because the parent's can't provide. Why isn't the help aimed at the parent so the parent can stay with the child?

Why didn't she go that way?

[LostInAnomie]

108. Exactly

[Erika]

115. The child is best raised by a loving parent

The boy's father loves him. It is heart breaking to me that parents in this world are forced to give up their children because they don't have the funds to raise the child. This includes the United States.

Rather than helping the parent, the parent is forced to adopt out the child to someone with superior means. It stinks.

[JI7]

111. is it disgusting for Americans to give birth to kids while there are kids

who are still up for adoption and have no homes. especially with teh population and resource issues we are having ?

[951-Riverside]

125. No not really

If someone wants to have a child regardless of age they should be allowed to without being intimidated, threatened or coerced into putting the baby up for adoption. I think its really sad how young mothers are demonized because they decided to give birth. In this day and age a young person should not have to put their lives on hold because they have a baby, we could have started daycare and education programs for young women who want to further their education while taking care of the baby but noooo we wasted it all in Iraq. :eyes:

[upi402]

151. it's ok i think no problem

[Exiled in America]

158. I'm fine with it.

[alittlelark]

161. That child will get opportunities only fantasized about by peers

I say DO IT! If I had the resources to know I could support a child through college and help them a bit after (other than my own two) I would do it in a heartbeat.

[ulysses]

162. no, no - adoption is evil.

You're better than that.

[LostInAnomie]

165. But wouldn't it be better to allow him to stay with his father...

... and also provide those opportunities? I don't see why it has to be an either/or situation.

[alittlelark]

168. Either/or - an ugly world. if S/He is adopted by 'well to do' parents

S/He will have a chance at a life envied by their peers.


Fairy Godmother comes to mind.


If the father or whomever is unable to provide the 'Lottereyeske' results.....

Lets be real.

[bluestateguy]

167. This is such a stupid controversy

This kid she adopts will be raised amidst a life of opulence, will go to the best schools, and probably inherit a lot of money. The notion that this kid is somehow a "victim" is silly.

[donheld]

170. Maybe you should learn more before judging

Madonna 's charity Raising Malawi is setting up an orphan care center to provide food, education and shelter for up to 4,000 children. It will have projects based on Kabbalah, Judaism's mystical sect, which counts the 48-year-old singer among its devotees.

In an open letter to Madonna released Tuesday, Eye of the Child had questioned whether foreign adoptions were in the best interests of children.

But Mirriam Nyirongo, a retired nurse who runs an orphanage in the northern Malawian town of Mzuzu, said: "We must be frank. We can't afford to look after the thousands of babies that are being orphaned every day.

"If rich people like Madonna take just one child it will be a major boost for Malawi. For people like Baby David, when they come to know their roots, might wish to do the same (for) others."


http://news.aol.com/entertainment/music/articles/_a/madonna-confirms-adoption-of-african/20061010183009990001

[The empressof all]

173. Locking

Let's call it flamebait :eyes: