White House: WE DIDN'T REALLY OUTLAW WATERBOARDING

[kpete]

Thursday, October 05, 2006

White House: We didn't really outlaw waterboarding
by Joe in DC - 10/05/2006 09:57:00 AM


One more time, the White House has rolled John McCain. And one more time, the White House is ignoring Congress:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR2006100402005.html

Key senators say Congress has outlawed one of the most notorious detainee interrogation techniques --
"waterboarding," in which a prisoner feels near drowning. But the White House will not go that far, saying it would be wrong to tell terrorists which practices they might face.

Inside the CIA, waterboarding is cited as the technique that got Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the prime plotter of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, to begin to talk and provide information -- though "not all of it reliable," a former senior intelligence official said.

Waterboarding doesn't work. Torture doesn't work. But, Bush doesn't care. He wants to torture terrorists. And, as far as Bush is concerned, Congress said he can.

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/10/white-house-we-didnt-really-outlaw.html

[aquart]

1. John McCain deserves whatever he gets.

We don't, but that worthless hypocrite does. Everytime I see a Democrat say something nice about that piece of crap, I want to throw up.

It seems that as often as McCain gets suckered by the White House, WE get suckered by McCain.

[Avalux]

2. I know what you mean.

Most people think that since McCain was tortured, he'd be against it. I think it's the opposite - he was tortured by bad guys, so he WANTS to torture bad guys for revenge. Make sense? His initial resistance was all show.

[karynnj]

15. I always questioned why

he was given credit for "moral standing" on torture. He clearly understands torture, knows the impact on people - himself and his counterparts, but this did mean it was a given that he was more against the US doing it. I gave more credit to those who have consistantly spoken against US violations of this and other aspects of the Geneva Convention. (Frankly, I would not support a candidate in 2008 who had not spoken out on this and voted against it.)

[MrCoffee]

4. So do the Senate Dems who let McCain lead the fight on the MCA

Charlie Brown, Lucy, and a football come to mind.

[karynnj]

14. The Senate Dems did not have the numbers to

do anything - which is appalling. Only 34 voted against this. The Senate Dems wrote about 60 amendments that would have corrected flaws - they were allowed to bring 4 (or 5 ??) to the floor and they all lost.

I do think more of them should have been out speaking against torture in the weeks before. Kerry and Kennedy did. I assume I missed some but every strong Democratic voice should have been out there - and many were missing. That is NOT leading. (For that time, they could not criticize the actual bill as it was still being written a day or so before the vote.)

[leftchick]

8. I don't believe he was suckered

he knew damn well bush was going to do what he wanted. It was all for the TV. Who in the hell buys that "renegade repuke" BS?

[Kierkegaard]

13. His behavior is the definition of stupid.

Bush can't go back to the well too many times with old McCain. He's a glutton for punishment.

[pingveno]

19. Politics... as usual

There was no way McCain was going to do more than get a compromise. He also has to look forward to a bid for the 2008 Presidential Election (if he does go ahead and run). A lot of Republicans were getting pissed at him for
1) Standing up to the White House and his fellow Republicans (though not in those words)
2) Giving rights to "terrorists" (in those words)
Both are, from my POV, a good thing. The White House doesn't need any more phallic suction, while anyone accused of terrorism should have the right to not be tortured and to have a fair trial. Unfortunately, McCain couldn't last forever...

[Pacifist Patriot]

23. I have never understood McCain's appeal.

[Rex]

3. I bet Bush/Cheney/Rummy stand to one side and masturbate

while their political prisoners cryout for mercy. All this Clenis envy is hurting the country.

[TahitiNut]

5. Do Junior and Cheney get recordings of the screams for their iPods?

I wonder. They gotta get their jollies, I guess. :puke:

[aquart]

17. Don't be ridiculous. They get video which includes sound.

After all, they can afford the latest and best.

[leftchick]

6. the KUBARK manual is a disgusting read

and right in it is the admission that intense pain results in false confessions! It does not work!!! :puke:

http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/kubark.htm#IX

It has been plausibly suggested that, whereas pain inflicted on a person from outside himself may actually focus or intensify his will to resist, his resistance is likelier to be sapped by pain which he seems to inflict upon himself. "In the simple torture situation the contest is one between the individual and his tormentor (.... and he can frequently endure). When the individual is told to stand at attention for long periods, an intervening factor is introduced. The immediate source of pain is not the interrogator but the victim himself. The motivational strength of the individual is likely to exhaust itself in this internal encounter.... As long as the subject remains standing, he is attributing to his captor the power to do something worse to him, but there is actually no showdown of the ability of the interrogator to do so." (4)

Interrogatees who are withholding but who feel qualms of guilt and a secret desire to yield are likely to become intractable if made to endure pain. The reason is that they can then interpret the pain as punishment and hence as expiation. There are also persons who enjoy pain and its anticipation and who will keep back information that they might otherwise divulge if they are given reason to expect that withholding will result in the punishment that they want. Persons of considerable moral or intellectual stature often find in pain inflicted by others a confirmation of the belief that they are in the hands of inferiors, and their resolve not to submit is strengthened.

Intense pain is quite likely to produce false confessions, concocted as a means of escaping from distress. A time-consuming delay results, while investigation is conducted and the admissions are proven untrue. During this respite the interrogatee can pull himself together. He may even use the time to think up new, more complex "admissions" that take still longer to disprove. KUBARK is especially vulnerable to such tactics because the interrogation is conducted for the sake of information and not for police purposes.

[grizmaster]

11. damn spooky evil sh!t

yikes

[helderheid]

7. The ONLY thing torture prevents is people questioning their government.

[The Cleaner]

9. McCain looked like a deer in the headlights that day.

He looked scared as hell like somebody threatened him or something.

As for Bush the Dictator, wow. But we all knew he would effectively attach a signing statement on the bill citing his right to ignore that new law...I can't confirm that it's in writing but it certainly is Bush's M.O.

Actually with all his dictatorial powers he doesn't need signing statements anymore. Our Repub Congress has effectively made itself irrelevant, willingly, ceding all its authority and power to Das Fuehrer.

[karynnj]

10. The easiest way to prove that these things were NOT outlawed

is to ask people why Kennedy's amendmant was rejected then. That amendment simply included a list of techniques, the world considers to be torture that it would EXPLICITLY make illegal - though they already violated earlier law.

Here is Kennedy's amendment:
AMENDMENT NO. 5088

(Purpose: To provide for the protection of United States persons in the implementation of treaty obligations)
On page 83, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following:

(2) PROTECTION OF UNITED STATES PERSONS.--The Secretary of State shall notify other parties to the Geneva Conventions that--

(A) the United States has historically interpreted the law of war and the Geneva Conventions, including in particular common Article 3, to prohibit a wide variety of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of members of the United States Armed Forces and United States citizens;

(B) during and following previous armed conflicts, the United States Government has prosecuted persons for engaging in cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, including the use of waterboarding techniques, stress positions, including prolonged standing, the use of extreme temperatures, beatings, sleep deprivation, and other similar acts;

(C) this Act and the amendments made by this Act preserve the capacity of the United States to prosecute nationals of enemy powers for engaging in acts against members of the United States Armed Forces and United States citizens that have been prosecuted by the United States as war crimes in the past; and

(D) should any United States person to whom the Geneva Conventions apply be subjected to any of the following acts, the United States would consider such act to constitute a punishable offense under common Article 3 and would act accordingly. Such acts, each of which is prohibited by the Army Field Manual include forcing the person to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; applying beatings, electric shocks, burns, or other forms of physical pain to the person; waterboarding the person; using dogs on the person; inducing hypothermia or heat injury in the person; conducting a mock execution of the person; and depriving the person of necessary food, water, or medical care.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I bolded the tortures specifically forbidden. Here's the list of people who apparently want to give Bush the decision on those acts:

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-NE)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

(The Leahy amendment countered torture and other problems - this did NOTHING other than outlaw torture.)

Here is Kerry's speech on Youtube - he only had 5 minutes, but it is compelling.



http://www.youtube.com/index?&session=gAJ9cQEoVQxlcnJvcl9maWVsZHNxAmNfX2J1aWx0aW5fXwpzZXQKcQNdhVJxBFUGZXJyb3JzcQVdcQZVOlRoaXMgdmlkZW8gaGFzIGJlZW4gcmVtb3ZlZCBkdWUgdG8gdGVybXMgb2YgdXNlIHZpb2xhdGlvbi5xB2FVCG1lc3NhZ2VzcQhdcQl1Lg==

[Warren DeMontague]

12. They outlawed BOOGIE boarding.

Big difference.

[IWantAChange]

16. Rubber stamp Congress Neutered Judiciary means

Cheney, Rumsfeld and lastly - Dubyha - can do anything they want anytime they want - unlawful or not. Cuz who is gonna stop them??? Diebold machines aside the ONLY chance for this country is to take back control of at least one of the chambers of Congress - if not look out for Jeb in 2008 to continue the Royal Family.

[D23MIURG23]

18. Does it even matter what the law says?

I was under the impression that these people thought that article 2 put the president above the law anyway.

[magellan]

26. Precisely

The only point of that bill was to give BushCo retroactive immunity on any charges of war crimes. How stupid are the Dems going to look if they ever try to get Bush** for torture when the Repugs can just turn around and say, "Dems voted in favor of the legislation too."

edit: sorry, forgot to add welcome to DU! :hi:

[Solly Mack]

20. No one was stupid enough to believe they did were they?

Because you'd have to be truly stupid to think they would...or a liar who wants to cover up the war crimes of America.

McCain's a liar.

[DesertRat]

21. John McCain is not a "maverick" as he likes to say

He's a * ass kisser and we all know it.

[Senator]

22. Ah yes, the War Criminal Protection Act provides...

"...retroactive legal protection to those who carried out waterboarding and other coercive interrogation techniques."

Now isn't that special.

As if such a thing could be "provided."

Walter Pincus himself could now be subject to war crime prosecution for suggesting this form of torture is now magically no longer a crime since such a fraudulent public statement actively encourages the practice.

Yes, really.

====

[woodsgirl]

24. Didn't the

info about Mark Foley come out while the torture bill laid on Bush's desk? Could this be the equivalent of a CIA/miitary coup? After all, Jeff Gannon would have made some juicy news for MSM. Clinton's blowjob coverage was due to the fact that MSM has to make money. Give the public what it wants. (democratic sleaze) Because that piece of legislation makes US an official terroist state.May all the lawmakers who voted for it go to Hague. And may the secrets roll on out. If there are democrats in it...they should step down and be prosecuted too. If Mark Foley were an ordinary man, he would be in jail. Or a democrat.

[Serial Mom]

25. Besides torture not working, somebody needs to explain to me...

how can you get any pertinant/current/relevant information from people who have been kept in prision for 2, 3 and 4 years?

Like anything they would say would be up-to-date????????