Why are so many DUers holding up the Amish as "good Christians"?

[LostinVA]

It's very, very strange to me. We rail against the unChrist-like Fundies on these pages every single day -- the people who hate gays, who don't care about women's rights, children's rights... well, that's exactly what the Amish teach, folks. EXcept usually even more so -- especially OLd Order Amish.

Calling them gentle, sweet, saintly, etc, is making my head spin. OF COURSE some of them are like that -- maybe even many -- but they live and run a theocracy that is allowed by Federal and state laws. Children are made to leave school at 8th grade, rapists and other violent criminals are NOT imprisoned, but allowed to continue raping their children after a "shunning" period consisting of a few weeks. Young women who have literally escaped and pressed charges against brothers, fathers, etc. are excommunicated, and all the sympathy given to the rapist. I learned today they are the main suppliers of puppy mill puppies. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Some people on this list say they know them, they lived with them, etc. No you didn't. They are insular on purpose. They don't allow DSS or domestic abuse investigators to come around. They close ranks. They subjugate women. They are anti-war, but unforgiving.

I think too many people have romanticized them ala Hollywood... like "Witness." Or, like the Samurai in "The Last Samurai." Google. Lots of stuff out there.

It truly IS wonderful they can forgive people... but there is often a true darkness to their practice. This thread earlier today has some good stuff in it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2308778


I know there will be flames, and that's fine. Just remember this thread next time you start tearing into Baptists -- the Amish are no different, and are in some ways worse. They are a THEOCRACY condoned by the Federal government.

That being said, I feel extreme compassion for the families who lost their little girls. I wish the murdered had lived to serve the next 50 years in prison until he rotted and died.

ON EDIT: I am not stating that all Amish are evil -- they are human. I think their SYSTEM sucks, and is harmful to many of their community.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. They look quaint on TV.

Frankly, I think they're a fairly weird cult in a nation filled with weird cults.

But I wasn't going to bring that up now, given the circumstances.

[Saphire]

40. lol

[radwriter0555]

137. Yes, everyone seems to forget they're a cult as wierd as the hassidics

if not more so. The Hassidic jewish at least integrate Sunday through Friday to a certain extent.

[Dorian Gray]

176. Ummmm..

the Hassidim are not a "weird cult!" I am not Jewish, and I have no reason to defend the Hassidic Jews, but I live in Brooklyn (on the border of Crown Heights and Williamsburg), and the Hassidic Jews live in my area. In abundance. They are a somewhat insular community, and they are very religious people. But they are not kooky or crazy or cult-like.

I don't know why you would say that they are as kooky as the Hassidics. Other than their dress, which is somewhat similar, there is no other similarity in their belief systems. They are completely different.

I wouldn't consider either group a cult. I don't agree with many of their beliefs (both the Amish AND the Hassidim), but I believe in their right to practice and believe what they will.

I don't understand how this tragedy led to an attack on various religious groups. Sure, they may believe differently than we do and hold antiquated social mores, but they are entitled to their practices and beliefs. And in this case, the Amish were the victims. Attacking their religion is unnecessary.

[HeeBGBz]

248. I don't know many "in yer face" Amish

At least they keep to themselves in their beliefs and don't attempt to force themselves on the rest of us.

[karlrschneider]

2. They aren't held captive. I know of some who just 'leave' the clan.

When I was actively flight instructing, a young Amish fellow found me and wanted to learn to fly.
It surprised me at first but got to know him and understand he just wanted a different life. Sounded
okay to me.

[DURHAM D]

4. Easier for the boys to leave. eom

[karlrschneider]

26. Okay, my experience is admittedly quite limited.

...

[Jo March]

52. Read my post (#45)

[LostinVA]

6. Well, they pretty much are

If they leave, NO ONE is allowed to talk to them -- EVER -- except to tell them to repent. The children being abused are certainly captive. And, I guarantee most of the Old Order women feel that way... they are brought up as subjugated as any hardline Muslim. And, kinda hard to leave when you MIGHT have an 8th grade education.

Read some of those links on the other thread -- many children and young women tried to get leave.

The young man you described was either very extraordinary and brave, or was a Mennonite. I know many of the latter, and it's apples and oranges.

[karlrschneider]

24. Maybe he was Mennonite, I'm hazy at this late date.

And I assumed they were the same thing. There are a lot of people very near here who call themselves
Amish and others who use the Mennonite name, I just thought there were 2 different names for the same
outfit. The kid I taught to fly did tell me that he probably could never go 'back', though. He was
an excellent student - I've often wondered what ever happened to him.

[LostinVA]

33. I think alot of people think that

Alot of Mennonites live around here. They dress simplish, but live in the world, go to college, etc. There are also different orders of Amish. And, some Amish DO leave, but from what I've ben told by some who have, it's very, very difficult... because they leave their whole family behind. It's almost like the leaver has died.

[karlrschneider]

42. My partner is a Dish Network installer, he has put in several

up the road where they (whichever they are) live. He thinks it's odd (as do I)...some of them
go with electronics like Dish & phones but won't drive cars, others don't even have electricity.
They operate several bakeries and make some fine baked goods and use gas for the ovens. It's all
pretty loose as I see it. And weird too.

[LostinVA]

53. Yeah, the Mennonites can be really "weird" like that

I know a man who owns a store, drives a car, his wife is going to college, and they have a TV, dvd player, and game system... but he won't get cable or a dish! It's funny.

He's a nice guy.

[kestrel91316]

84. Every little Amish church district has its own set of rules

known as the Ordnung. These are their unwritten rules of conduct and lifestyle. They cover everything from whether or not they can have gas tractors, and if they can have rubber or only steel tires, be driven on the road or only used in the field, or if they can only use horses, and if they can use gas-powered attachments or not; also buggy top colors (some groups don't allow buggy tops, only the open kind), SMV glow triangles, battery buggy lamps vs kerosene; one suspender or two on the men's pants (none allow belts), men's hat brim width, hat colot, women's cap and apron color, house window curtain color, propane fridge vs icebox only, etc etc etc. Down to the minutest detail. Some of the church groups are in fellowship with others, some not, and the new groups often arise because so-and-so and all his kin left because they wanted to have buggy tops and the church district said no. So they form their own group. It's almost comical.

Beachy Amish are allowed to have cars (but back in the day of chrome trim they had to paint all the crome parts black to stay humble). Some groups let the boys ride bikes. All prohibit riding astride horses as opposed to using them to pull buggy or plow. All prohibit mustaches, buttons, zippers (but I hear velcro is quite popular and permissible). Some allow use of gas-powered compressors for power tool use in shops, some not. Some allow solar electronic calculators at work. They are as a whole very selective in which technology they allow into their community, and which they reject.

In the early days of phones, with party lines, Amish had phones. But because the community was being harmed by people listening in to others' conversations and hurt feelings arose, they banned phones (some communities allow a communal phone booth, locked, for emergency use only, out by the road).

I find all this endlessly fascinating, though I do not agree with all they do. I have interest in them because I have some Amish ancestry several generations back which recently came to light.

There are bad Amish people just like there are bad non-Amish people. Nobody says they are saints, to a man. They are independent of "English" society as a means of self-preservation. I guess the misunderstandings and xenophobia that led to so many of them being murdered and martyred in the 16th century are alive and well in America's liberal community. Pity.

Re Mennonites: The "Amish Mennonites" aka Amish are an ultra-conservative sect of Mennonites. There are others, like the Old Order Mennonites and the Old Colony Mennonites. The Old Order Amish are the most conservative of the Amish. I think the biggest distinction between Amish and Mennonites as a whole is that Amish practice shunning and Mennonites do not. Also, most Mennonites dress just like you and me (but a bit conservative, no hip-trendy nonsense), and live modern lives with electricity (they DO tend to live simply, without frills).

So many misconceptions and myths being perpetuated here...............

[Thirtieschild]

156. I also have Amish ancestry

My grandmother's father was Mennonite, her mother Amish. Her uncle decided that both the Amish and Mennonites were too worldly and started his own sect, still around, now numbering something like 20,000. They forced Grandmother into a loveless marriage when she was 16 "to settle her down" - she wanted to dance, cut her hair, wear pretty clothes. The marriage was a disaster, and had a disastrous effect on my father. I see extremism running through the family - not everyone inherits the propensity, but it turns up now and again. I came out of it with a strong distaste for extremism in all forms, religious, political, what-have-you.

[deathdog]

199. The Amish encourage young people to

dance, cut their hair, wear pretty clothes. They aren't bound by the rules of the district until they are baptised--usually around 18 or 20, often just before they marry. Before that, there is a period called "rumspringen" when young people are encouraged to do things outside the rules, to get it out of their system. I went to high school with Amsih girls (yes, Amish girls in high school--another myth debunked--who would bring "normal clothes" to school chang into 'em, wear 'em all day, and then change into plain clothes at the end of the day. Their parents were concerned some wouldn't approve, hence the changing at school, but it was a common practice. Those girls are all plain, now, and happy, from what I can tell.

[JuniperLea]

229. I bet they are no more negatively affected than many of the Catholic kids

I knew growing up... and now. Hell, Madonna has made a career getting Catholicism out of her system. Talk about repressive!

[Darth_Kitten]

286. Why attack catholics?

:shrug:

Oh, right, catholics are uptight and damaged. :eyes:

[Thirtieschild]

241. Grandmother would have been lucky if her family had been Amish

instead of following her uncle, who started his own sect because the Amish were too worldly. There's even an internet group for survivors.

[Bjorn Against]

122. Amish culture does permit some modern technology

Many people mistakingly believe that the Amish do not use any modern day gadgets at all, this is not true.

They can use modern technology as long as that technology has been approved by other members of the community. Some Amish communities are undoubtedly more strict than others, and I am quite surprised that any of them would approve of getting the Dish network but if the community decided that getting such a technology was in the best interest of the community then it would not be in violation of their religion.

[deathdog]

195. The Amish can use some technologies for their businesses

The rules differ by district (what most churches call "congregations"). But, if they have phones in their homes, they aren't old Order Amish.

[ComerPerro]

263. Amazing how the so-called religious can justify anything

I can have electricity, just can't drive a car.

Electricity is only for essential equipment like washers and dryers and ovens and stoves, but we can watch TV too. Satellite, even.


We have to fast during lent. Well, not really. We just have to fast on Fridays. We can't eat meat on Fridays. We can't eat RED meat on Fridays. We can't eat red meat on Fridays during lent.

[jberryhill]

63. World of Difference Between Amish and Mennonites

Mennonites are horribly worldly awful sinfully fallen people.

[deathdog]

196. Like me!!

:)

[marshall]

127. urban legends about the Amish?

Maybe the Amish vary from community to community, but they are not all as hateful as has been desribed. Not all who choose to leave the faith are shunned, and certainly they do not as individuals condone incest or abuse.

[LostinVA]

149. Who said they were all hateful? Not me, and I'm the OP

You are saying I said things I didn't say. Any more strawpeople?

And yes: Old Order Amish DO shun people who leave them and they excommunicate. No urban legends.

[deathdog]

197. Yet I talk to my Amish relatives all the time

I guess they really need you to clarify their rules for them.

[deathdog]

189. I know Amish women--I'm related to them

and they don't feel held captive.

Who are you to speak for them?

[HamdenRice]

3. Because they're great at ...Bowling?

Bowling?

[LostinVA]

7. Hahaha! That made me laugh -- thanks!

[Dorian Gray]

177. Kingpin?

I LOVE Kingpin!

All anyone needs to learn about the Amish can be gleaned from that film!


(I KID!)

[JuniperLea]

5. They walk the talk

Simple, really. They are the embodiment of all that is Christ-like, whereas Fundies have lost their way and hold their un-Christ-like ways so dear. Peeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuke!

[LostinVA]

8. So, you really think they are "Christ-like"?

Because, and I do NOT mean this snotty at all, I swear -- you need to reread the Gospels. They do NOT embody all that is CHrist-like.

They walk the talk of intolerance, that's for darned sure.

OMG.


on edit: okay, I just saw the "puke."

[JuniperLea]

15. On what do you base that?

All I've ever known about the Amish is totally Christ-like. Even when interviewed on TV, they said they are not looking to judge, but to forgive and to go forward. The only thing I can see that is intolerant are their ideas about keeping their life simple and free of material things. Oh, wait... that IS a teaching of Christ.

I'm really curious to know on what you base your statement.

[LostinVA]

I'm basing it on facts

Law enforcement facts, DSS facts, facts about what the Old Order Amish believe and teach, etc. I linked to another thread that has lots of good links.

I stated the forgiveness is admirable.

[JuniperLea]

35. Everything I read on that thread is anecdotal... where are the facts?

And Christ wasn't perfect. These people are human beings for Christ's sake... pun intended. They are subject to all the failings that come from being human.

[suziedemocrat]

108. I grew up in a small town with some Amish light.

They were not Mennonites. We called them Old Orders. They didn't have electricity or drive cars, but the girls dresses were usually small pastel prints and not black. They made the clothes themselves and wore little hats that matched their dresses. There were two Amish girls in my class of 130. They usually sold fruit and vegetables in town from their buggies. These people ARE VERY nice and wonderful people from what I can tell. They were NOT judgmental at all. Wonderful, kind people.

I also had a friend who married (and divorced) a boy from one of these families. He and most of his siblings left the church but they were still close to their parents.

When I was in his parent's house, I did feel like they were closer to God. (and I'm a fallen away Catholic!)

[LostinVA]

113. They couldn't have been Old ORder Amish

If they went to school with you and dressed like that, and considering that those that left weren't excommunicated.

I'm curious to know what sect they were.

[deathdog]

194. Yes they could have been

That describes the Old Order Amish here. Most of the kids go to public school through the 8th grade. There are a few Amish schools like where the shooting happened, but most attend public schools. They wear a variety of colors including pastels, not just black. And I have Amish relatives that we get together with regularly, even though we're Mennonite.

[JuniperLea]

239. All Amish communities are different, just like all Baptist churches

You can't paint with such a broad brush and be accurate in your assumptions.

I have no doubt there's a violated alter boy for every violated Amish child. We only see the tip of the iceberg in all cases.

[deathdog]

278. Probably Old Order Mennonites

not technically Amish.

[deathdog]

190. They deal with DHS here when it's appropriate

They make use of the county mental health center, they call the police when it's appropriate (like when a NON-AMISH monster is killing their children, for instance). They are just part of the community.

[ShortnFiery]

72. "they are not looking to judge, but to forgive and to go forward"

I could not live their life but I admire their ability to forgive and move on. If this were any other school, people would be threatening the life of the wife and kids of the murderer.

In a certain way, they remind me of true pacifists by the way they choose to renounce violence and promote peace.

Yes they are a closed community but they harm nobody else.

It's a tragedy. :cry:

[JuniperLea]

112. They are human and not perfect... no one is...

But I admire how they try. If it weren't for this damn addiction to rock 'n roll, I'd go for the simple life myself.

[mongo]

221. Must be tons of Amish out there where you live

Their subjegation of women and epidemic child and animal abuse is pretty well documented.

Comes from living in an insular society. Most all of the hate the "English" too.

But they love a good deal at Big Lots....

[JuniperLea]

232. Baptists and Catholics are no better

That's all I'm saying.

[pnwmom]

253. The difference is that Baptists and Catholics are subject to the

same state laws that everybody else is. The Amish aren't subject to state or federal education laws, and local authorities often turn a blind eye to them with regard to child abuse. Just as state authorities often turn a blind eye to the goings on in polygamous religious communities.

[JuniperLea]

255. That's a myth

they are subject to all laws.

[pnwmom]

256. The Supreme Court exempted them from compulsory education laws

after the 8th grade. That's history.

And, if you really wanted to know how well we enforce child abuse laws, you could read this:

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

"The Gentle People

"Impressed by their piety, courts have permitted the Amish to live outside the law. But in some places, the group's ethic of forgive and forget has produced a plague of incest—and let many perpetrators go unpunished."

SNIP

Problems like incest occur in all societies. But the closed nature of the Amish community, COMBINED with our willingness to turn away from problems of children there, mean that the children there are at special risk.

[JuniperLea]

258. I invite you to come to downtown Los Angeles

And see for yourself how laws go unenforced and just how willing we are to turn away from the problems of the children here. Kids who should be in school are found on the street every day, begging for money and food, sometimes with their crack-whore mothers looking on from a distance. Sometimes the child is sold for the afternoon by that same mother, or an unrelated pimp. I see it every day. Every stinking day. I'd love to see all the street kids around here sent off to an Amish community! The worst treatment there would be far and above better than their daily existence in one of the wealthiest cities in the world.

All I'm saying is that all of these things are rampant everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. They may not be in your local town, but I challenge you to find a metropolitan area anywhere in the US where children are well cared for and the laws that apply to them are upheld. The Amish are just a slice of society and their slice varies only in the slightest degree, if at all.

I understand all that you've shown me. I truly do, and I'm outraged... but not just about the Amish. My outrage is fairly well distributed and I don't feel any one group should be singled out above any other.

[pnwmom]

269. I'm absolutely not singling them out. I agree completely

that problems with child abuse exist in all communities. But I also think that some people see the Amish through rose-colored glasses. Parts of their culture are wonderful -- their emphasis on forgiveness is an example to us all -- but they can have serious problems, just as we all do.

And I think it is a mistake for us to deliberately put certain groups outside of the purview of the laws that are supposed to apply to all of us, and the Amish are one of the groups that fall into this category.

[deathdog]

281. How are they outside the purview of the laws?

The only law I know they aren't compelled to follow is the one about compulsory education. But since I spent an hour at the food coop yesterday tripping over all the "homeschooled" kids, I have the distinct feeling that that law gets fudged a lot.

[Jo March]

78. When it comes to forgiveness, then yes, these particular folks

are walking the walk.

On other things... not so much. Of course, we all fall short of the teachings of Christ and I'm not trying to judge others so please don't get me wrong.

Beware the Christians who declare that they are perfect because no one is.

[donsu]

206. forgiveness can be taken too far - some things are not forgivable

nt

[deathdog]

214. The Amish would disagree

[donsu]

219. and I disagree with the amish

nt

[pnwmom]

270. And the problem with that is that it can lead to more victimization

for children who have been abused. There are numerous cases of children who have been abused by older family members, who are quickly forgiven by the whole community -- then brought back into the family and allowed to abuse again! This is hardly a solution.

[deathdog]

276. Define numerous

I've looked for info about the vast amount of child abuse among the Amish that many here are touting. I've found stories of ONE Swartzendruber community where this abuse took place. And the interesting thing to me was that when the cases were brought to the non-Amish authorities, they were also treated as no big deal. One abuser--a rapist, really--got probation. Another had to serve a few months in jail, but mostly at night so he could tend his farm.

Oh, yeah. These victims would have been much safer if they weren't Amish.

So, again, define numerous. And explain how being Amish is part of the problem.

[femrap]

37. I don't believe Christ

beat the shit out of women or indulged in incest.

The Amish can be extremely mean....and the antithesis of Christ.

Google it.

[JuniperLea]

60. Consider the sources

And then show me one society or one religion that is perfect and without those things.

[femrap]

131. I believe there are degrees of oppression.

Let's compare your local Methodist to a member of the Taliban.

And as far as I am concerned, Organized religions are just ways to oppress people. And they love to start wars.

I hate Organized Religions and the hypocrits who thump their books.

I believe Ghandi said something like: I like your Christ...but why are your Christians nothing like him?

Amish have one mean patriarchy....

[JuniperLea]

227. No, let's compare the Baptists and Catholics

The Methodists are far more progressive. Tell it to the alter boys fending off priests and the young girls who can't use birth control or get abortions. Talk about being shunned.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

236. One can't really compare

Being told not to get an abortion with being raped, though, or even with having your rape hushed up or the perpetrator "forgiven".

[JuniperLea]

238. Tell it to the alter boys who have been raped by priests

And the priests continue to be in a position of power. Seems like the same deal to me. And they are forced to see their attacker day after day as well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

243. Once again, the relevant question is respective frequency.

Sexual abuse by Catholic priests is (I believe) very rare, in relative terms (although I'm sure it's far higher in absolute terms than by Amish, because there are so many more catholics). I don't know whether the rate per capita of abuse by the Amish is significantly higher, but if as the OP is alledging it is then that's certainly not "the same deal".

The allegation about the priest still being in the position of power is also, I believe, no longer accurate in nearly all cases, although it certainly was until relatively recently. But I don't know of any allegations on a par with the victim being ostracised and the perpetrators wept for, as the OP is alleging, and while that doesn't mean Catholics don't do such things it does mean they certainly don't do them at all often.

[JuniperLea]

246. Once again, a broad brush on unknown areas

These incidents rarely come out until years down the road, if at all. I fail to see any evidence that any of the composite figures are accurate or can be assumed to be even close. This is not an absolute victim count and can never be such. To make assumptions based on so little is pure speculation and should not be encouraged. We have no proof that the rate of sexual attacks or mental abuse is higher in any religion or religious community than in any other. You cannot measure happiness or pain.

[deathdog]

277. Abuse among the Amish is rare, too

The cases being touted here happened among one Amish group--one of the smallest, The Swartzedruber Amish. The frequency of abuse among the Amish is no greater than among the general population. If you can refute that please bring statistics.

[femrap]

244. Personally, I find all organized religions

oppressive to women. And they sure like to fight wars. I think organized religions have lost most usefulness in modern society. They're as bad as Corporations.

[JuniperLea]

247. I agree... allow me to quote a dear friend~a gay metaphysical minister...

I just love spiritual people, but religious people scare the hell out of me.

[femrap]

257. I agree !!! nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

168. That's missing the point.

It's not a binary thing; there are very few societies that are totally free of any social evil. However, some such things are massively more prevalent in some societies than others; *that's* the standard you should be looking at. I don't know anything about the prevalence of wife-beating among the Amish, but if it is significantly higher than among e.g. non-Amish Americans then that is a relevant criticism.

[JuniperLea]

226. True. Tell it to the Baptists and Catholics

There's plenty in those nearly closed societies too.

[mongo]

222. here's some "sources"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2308778&mesg_id=2310115

[JuniperLea]

224. Baptists and Catholics are no better

Why pick on the Amish?

[kestrel91316]

86. And the non-Amish NEVER do those sorts of things!

[JuniperLea]

106. Exactly

They can't be human like the rest of us.


:eyes:

[femrap]

129. Their oppression of women is much

stricter than 'normal' American society. Of course, I would imagine that the Taliban is worse.

But then I doubt if I'm telling you something you don't already realize to be true.

[deathdog]

192. I know Amish women

They don't seem to think of themselves as oppressed. I guess they need you to explain how bad they have it.

[femrap]

132. Did you read this?

http://www.newsbackup.com/about475373.html

[Bluerthanblue]

249. No one is saying the Amish ARE Christ-

or perfect, just that their lives of community caring, forgiveness, and lack of self-greed are admirable.-

The 'Amish" are every bit as human as anyone, and as such will have their share of people who do mean things, hurt each other, and commit atrocities- It isn't a 'part' of their doctrine. Now, I CAN tell you there are Fundementalist Evangelical Christians who DO advocate beating your wife, AND children with a 'rod' a dowel, purchased at any hardware store about 1.50" in diameter- and these people actually believe if you DON'T 'chasten' your children, you are not 'loving them' or 'obeying christ'-
I know because I lived that life- and was appalled by the unashamed, in your face admonition to act on that- women weren't allowed to speak without their husbands permission.-

You can find a lot of things on Google- some of it is sensationalism, some is very factual, and some is pure garbage.-

[peace13]

9. Religion aside,

the little girls did not deserve this. The darkness of their world is not a result of their doing. We as adults have a responsibility to keep the children safe. We fail miserably at home and around the globe. The violence we see is magnified as a result of our inability to make this administration stop their global terror. NGU, Kim

[LostinVA]

12. I'm not talking about the murdered little girls at all

And, I don';t think the shooter was affected by Junior's global terror -- he was either mentally disturbed or a sociopath. I'm still out on that one.

[peace13]

28. I think that the violence and uncertainty of our world today

does affect the mentally ill. I have witnessed it first hand. We will see more violence at home until we get our national policies regarding torture and killing in order.

[JuniperLea]

51. I think the pollution in our air, water and food has caused a lot of that

The more tainted our food becomes, the more chemicals in our environment, the less likely we are to be whole human beings.

[donsu]

209. true

nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

70. We also don't have mental health care available for all who need it

It makes me physically ill when I think that this man in PA and the kid in WS and the man in CO may have been helped if we had decent affordable mental health care in this country.

[AZBlue]

126. I'll second that!!

Think of all the horrible things that could be avoided in this country! It's amazing.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. I disagree with you entirely about

your opinion that the shooter was unaffected by *'s gung-ho, hate-em, kill-em, my way or the highway attitude. The entire world has been INfected with arrogance, intolerance, and a kind of "self-righteous" "we are the moral police" shit that passes for 'normal' in this world.
It began before 2000, it began with the smear campaign over Clinton's private "affairs"- something I can't applaud him for, but which was NONE of the worlds business. The politicians that went after him, who had slimy pasts, but played the "Clean-cut-gawd-fearing- family men" and excused their own personal flaws as 'no big deal', started the ball rolling on some kind of sick, fake 'moral' pretense, in this country.

The world, and in particular our children watch bush strut around, feign compassion for five seconds, then crack sarcastic cutting 'jokes' denigrating anyone who doesn't fit "his" view of a 'human' as being a "monster"- a "dangerous killer" or of lower value than "his kind".

As for the Amish, I agree, many of their traditions, and dogma is NOT 'of Christ'- but the forgiveness with which they treat those 'english' and 'outsiders' who have harmed them IS PRECISELY what Jesus lived and taught.

The sick notion that you can put monetary value on the tragic loss of life, such as what went on after 9/11- and *'s plan for school kids to give the Afghani children a dollar, really does a disservice to the true value of life. How many of the Oklahoma Bombers families profited off the loss of their loved ones? How many folks from the disaster that is Katrina have been treated as the 9/11 families?- They were played and used as 'props' for his 'terra' war, while people all over the country and world, languish(ed) for funds to simply LIVE.-

sorry, this has turned into a rant, and i'm dumping on you..... I do think this world has become a darker, crueler, impulsive-arrogant place since * TOOK office. And we are watching it play out in the worst ways.

peace,
blu

[LostinVA]

73. Your opinion on the violence is just as valid as mine

We can agree to disagree!

I agree about the forgiveness part being Christ-like. I agree COMPLETELY. It was just quite a few posts romanticizing the belief systems, etc., that was driving em a bit bonkers.

[Bluerthanblue]

82. I agree....

....that the vaseline lens view is frustrating- and I agree we surely do have the right to hold our own differing viewpoints without needing to decimate the other.
Thank you for your gentle response to my 'bonkered' and intense reply.

One thing, that you just helped me grasp is that the Amish shunning worldly things like the media, popular culture, etc.- And the way this nation/world goes into feeding frenzys over things, like 'spinach'- 'school shootings' 'clergy/abuse'- and much more, somehow in a twisted way 'glorifies' or 'glamorizes' the worst of us. I don't think silence, or ignoring the reality of the bad stuff is good, but the orgies and saturation in this culture is equally UN-healthy. I do agree with those who have spoken about how some serious issues within closed communities such as the Amish are allowed to continue because of the 'hush-hush' and 'shameful' concequences.

sorry I vented on you. And thanks for your gentle and peaceful reply-
:hug:

blu

[LostinVA]

100. That's okay, I go bonkers sometimes, too!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

20. Yeah well, I knew you would be on this thread

And, for some reason, you refuse to face the facts about them... although I bet you would about other Fundies.

And no, they run a government-allowed theocracy, as per Supreme Court cases, FEderal law, and various state laws.

I don't hate the Amish, so burn that strawman ASAP. I'm just tired of having them held up as a shining example of Christianity and Christ. INtolerance wasn't an ideal of Jesus, and I know my Gospels.

There are great people who are Amish, there are bad people who are, they are ordinary people who are... BUT THE SYSTEM SUCKS. Denying this, on a PROGRESSIVE board, is strange to me. I stick up for Christians all the time on this board --

Rail at me all you want. I won't engage,

Ahem. I'm calling DENIAL for some strange reason.

[Jo March]

45. My XO in the Army was Amish

Well, she was Amish until she decided to go to West Point (where she finished 2nd in her class). Her family pretty much ex-communicated her and that was so hard for her. She sat and told me this after I was injured and watched my chances in the Green to Gold program take a dive.

She married a black man from New York and had a beautiful baby but her family, at that point, really shut her out. They didn't want her to marry the guy at all. Her chances of coming back to Amish country were pretty much doomed at that point.

She was a study in contrasts. She was very gentle and loving but she was gung ho in both West Point and with her military career. Not many guys could keep up with her. She was going to sponsor me for Green to Gold so she and I spoke quite a bit.

She always looked pained when speaking of her family. I'll never forget that.

[LostinVA]

56. Very interesting post -- thanks for sharing this

Do you still keep in touvh with her?

[Jo March]

76. No, after I left the Army, we didn't keep in touch

She was married and trying to promoted so she stayed gone in a lot of military classes.

I'll never forget her sitting there on the steps of the barracks, telling me about how much she missed having her mother at her wedding. :( It really affected her deeply but she had made her choice and it led her on a different path than her family wanted.

I think the reason that she told me was because I had just found out how badly I had hurt my knee and she saw & felt my loss and wanted to share hers in an attempt to connect with me. I never saw her talk to any other enlisted person for more than one minute.

[jberryhill]

I think the reason for the warm fuzzies is..

...they certainly aren't out trying to impose their value system on everyone else or to try to evangelize others.

No, that doesn't make everything that goes on within their closed society OK, but it makes it easier for those who are not Amish to tolerate them.

(unless you like not having a rut worn in the road right where your passenger side tire goes)

[kestrel91316]

92. Name me ONE example of an Amish person EVER displaying

any intolerance toward someone, other than intolerance of certain behavior in their fellow church members.

I'm waiting...............

Still waiting....................

Uh huh. That's what I thought.

Nobody is forced to be Amish. Membership is voluntary. As a voluntary association, they can HAVE their rules and be intolerant of those members who won't follow them.

But I think you know this. You just like to paint them with a VERY broad brush, probably because they aren't like the other fundies you jump to defend.

[donheld]

148. I'm waiting............... Still waiting....................

You still there? :D I agree with you. The only ones not voluntary are the children. I'm sure many a kid has had it worse than they do.

[LostinVA]

150. Just because someone is an adult doesn't mean they have freedom

[deathdog]

203. And the kids can leave before being baptised, if they choose

This is one reason baptism happens in the late teens. The Amish know they live a hard life. They want their kids to think it through. Oh, and shunning only happens to the baptised. Kids who leave before that aren't Amish, and, thus, aren't shunned.

[deathdog]

200. Thank you nt

[pnwmom]

251. They aren't subject to the same laws. One example: education.

They are allowed to withdraw their children from formal education after 8th grade, per a Supreme Court decision years ago. Doesn't matter which state they live in or what the education law is there -- it doesn't apply to the Amish.

[deathdog]

282. How is this different from all the fundies and progressives who

"homeschool" their kids? Amish kids keep learning the skills necessary to their lives after the 8th grade. They just don't sit in a classroom to do it. No different from homeschooling, which is perfectly legal.

[griffi94]

11. well one thing that makes the different

than the rightwing fundies is that they're not trying to take over the govt.
and i can't imagine the baptists forgiving anybody for anything. so at least the amish walk the walk
i may not agree with them, but there are lots of groups i don't agree with, that's why i'm not much of a joiner. so far i haven't noticed the amish trying to declare the united states a christian nation, also haven't seen them launch a pac, or rally at a medical facility, or try to make my kids pray in school.

[LostinVA]

21. I'll give you the taking over the government part

I guess I meant more comparing them as religious entities, not as a political fore. Sorry I didn;'t make that clearer. Good point!

[jedr]

13. Amish are human beings and their beliefs have many paradoxes;

However I never have had them infringe their beliefs upon me. Never have I been told that I would rot in hell because I was not like them or that they had the only answer to religious theocracy. Tolerance is the difference between Amish and Cristian Conservatives. I see no purpose in discrediting them because of what has happened.

[LostinVA]

25. Because of what happening???

I certainly don't think the shooting discrediting anyone -- except for the nutjob, and possibly his wife who should have called the cops ASAP. What did teh Amish have to do with this?

I kinda think allowing criminal behavior to continue in your community because you "shun" the outside world is something that isn't too Christlike. Again, people are people: good, bad, in between -- but the system isn't good. It's a microcosm of why a theocracy doesn't work.

[moondust]

14. Ascetics. n/t

[tandot]

16. I saw a documentary about one girl that has been raped since the

age of 6 by her brothers and others. The rapists just had to confess, and, after they were excluded from church for about 6 weeks, all was forgiven. They continued to rape her until she was a teen. I think one brother confessed to raping her at least about 100 times.

Her mother apparently said that she (her daughter) didn't pray hard enough, that it is all her fault, and that she should just forgive.

When she finally had the guts and reported it to the police, the whole Amish community shunned the girl, but cried for the rapists who were convicted of rape.

I am sorry for the girls who got killed, but I don't think the Amish are "saints"

[LostinVA]

27. Thank you -- finally someone who gets my point

[peace13]

32. I guess I feel that it is bad timing

to be pointing out how 'shitty' the Amish are. Can't we leave that for another day?

[LostinVA]

38. I never said the Amish were shitty

There are several threads saying how wonderful they are, and it disturbs me, because many people don't know about their beliefs, and are making their BELIEF SYSTEM into something great. I'm not talking about "them."

And, I understand if the topic bothers you. That's why I thank the gods for "hide thread."

[peace13]

41. Thanks for that!

[Marnieworld]

187. I get it too

For anyone to say, oh they can just leave if they don't like it is ridiculous.

Imagine if you are an Amish girl. Anyone can rape you. I'm not saying that everyone will but if someone does the police aren't notified and it is handled within the community. Handled by some ritual shunning? That's really not a deterrent and if a girl tells she can expect a social backlash as well. You don't have any education or skills beyond your farm/kitchen chores. You know nothing or anyone beyond that life. Really what are your choices?

They have a secluded world they live in and if it oppresses someone they have no recourse. People can leave but it takes a tremendous amount of strength to do so.

It's very similar to the plight of women in polygamous societies which although officially illegal, thousands live free off of the federal system to support them in these cultures. It's amazing what you can get away with if you say, "religion."

I have seen and read horror stories too. These aren't sweet little quaint cartoon characters but complex societies that aren't examined and are safe from the systems designed to protect vulnerable people.

People point to their recent capacity to forgive and it's blinding them to what is the real situation. Love Christ's teachings of forgiveness if that's your passion and even love the practice when you see it. But you can't define the whole based on this one part.

[me b zola]

29. Heartbreaking.

I saw that documentary too, which is why I have to agree with the premise of the OP.

[deathdog]

204. She wouldn't have been shunned

She would have been too young to be a member. Shunning only happens to members.

I'm suspicious.

[OzarkDem]

17. It probably bothers some GOP'ers

that Dems are not "haters of religion" or "haters of Christians".

I guess that's just too bad that we don't fit their stereotype, but conservatives area always wrong about Dems anyway. Nothing new there.

[nealmhughes]

18. The Amish/Mennonites are a remarkable group of German/Swiss pacifist

peitists. They do have varying degrees of "withdrawal" from the modern world and adherence to "traditional" ways. One group may be allied to another in another state or even in Costa Rica and Canada.

Many Mennonites are not withdrawn nor anti-technology or anti-education. Most of the Old Order Amish also have a "year off" to go into "the world" and work and live with greater society before becoming full-time members of the community. They go into the towns and work alongside their cohorts and then they decide whether or not to go back. Others do not allow this.

In religion, frankly, they are "German Methodists" who are adament about the entire Gospel with no allowance for taking oaths, participating in government offices, bearing arms or even defending themselves against violence.

In short there is no such thing as a "typical" Mennonite or Amish, only various groups which are conveniently lobbed together for classification's sake.

[deathdog]

208. Methodist?!! How do you get that?

They are Anabaptists, that is we are Anabaptists. We predate Wesley by centuries, and have no theological or historical connection to him (I'm not impressed with Methodists, who seem so accomodated to the culture--so I don't consider it a compliment to be called a Methodist)Since when do Methodists not take oaths or participate in government offices (here's a hint--what religion is W?)?

And some are German Swiss. There are also Amish communities whose ethnic heritage is Dutch, others who are Ukrainian or Russian.

We are not lobbed together "for classification's sake". We are all Anabaptists. We have a common heritage that goes back to the Radical Reformation.

[BootinUp]

19. The only comment I made was in reference

to their pacificism and non-violence in general. I don't know enough to comment on the points you raise.

[LostinVA]

30. I actually didn't even think about your comment

I mean that in a good way!

Pacifism and non-violence is very, very good.

[Swede Atlanta]

22. They walk the walk

The difference between the Amish and the Fundies is that the Amish don't just talk the talk, they walk the walk. Did you see that the families of those slain took food to the family of the shooter? Did you see that they are trying to forgive the shooter? They aren't perfect by any means but where it counts I think they live up to their reputation as humble wholesome people.

[LostinVA]

44. If you don't want to learn, I can't make you

Lots of good links in the other thread.

Again, as I've said 20 times, it is not about the individual people, it is about some people not knowing better thinking their belief system is "wholesome." Some parts are, but much of it is rotten. It's not a belief system I would any woman or child to live.

I was raised Catholic. Their are lots of great people in it. The Church teaches forgiveness, penance, are anti-war, anti penalty. BUT. How about doctrines about women, gays, etc.? How about the belief system as a whole, the hierarchy, the way decisions are made? IT SUCKS. Very similar here.

[JuniperLea]

57. Show me one perfect society

Or one perfect human being for that matter.

Seems you are the one who could learn a little.


Sorry, I just find condescension, such as that load of tripe you just laid on another poster, to be vile and so far from perfect that I can't imagine you knowing shit about shit.

[U4ikLefty]

141. WOW, how insulting!!! You just called them ignorant, condescending,

vile, and ignorant because they "don't know shit about shit".

Nice attack...that kind of stuff comes from the mind of a PUNK BITCH!!! (not that I'm calling you one directly...as per DU rules)

Now, let's see IF that ONE insult gets the same treatment as the FOUR INSULTS by you in that one post alone.

[LostinVA]

151. Damn, I may have to take the poster off ignore to read the post

Thanks for the defense, U.

I often like being vile and ignorant... it amuses me.

[JuniperLea]

234. That's sad

I don't have anyone on ignore. Live and learn from fools and from sages I always say.

[JuniperLea]

233. How long you been reading...

try again.

[smirkymonkey]

193. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of people are commending

them on their "forgiveness." Going through the motions of "forgiving" and actually forgiving in your heart and mind are two different things. There really is no way of knowing, however I think that coming to forgive - especially for a crime as heinous as this - is a process. It would take a rare, exceptional human being to genuinely forgive the murderer of thier child so soon after losing them.

I just think too much is being made of the forgiveness thing - and citing it as an example of thier Christian superiority. Things are not always as they seem on the surface - I think that is the point the OP is trying to make.

[deathdog]

210. They've invited the family of the shooter to their daughters' funerals

What would it take to convince you?

[Ian David]

23. As long as they leave the rest of us alone, many of us don't care

Yes, the Amish hate gays and abuse women...

But have you ever seen an Amish person protesting... well, protesting anything?

I might have missed it, but I haven't heard of Amish rallies against the horseless carriage or gay marriage.

I'm not a big fan of The Amish either-- especially since Bush had his "I was appointed by God" rally with them.

But as long as they keep their disgusting abuses within their own community, and leave the rest of us alone, I prefer them over the Mormons and the rest of the Pharisees.

[femrap]

43. So as long as they beat the crap out of

'their' women, it's fine with you? Incest...another no problem?

That attitude is a big part of why this country is in the mess that it is. It's all about ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME. And too f*cking bad about others....just keep them away from me.

You know who you sound like? BARBARA BUSH.

[Ian David]

47. I'm not condoning their behavior. n/t

[napi21]

31. There is a BiG difference between Amish and other fundi religions!

When was the last time you ever heardthe Amishbacking anyone in politcs? When did they ever even get involved in politics?

The answer is NEVER!

You sure can't say the same for the Baptists or RE evangelicals, now can you????

I have no problem with people believing in what ever theychoose. I'd be surprised if any DUer did. Just stay the hell out of politics if you want to remain tax free and stop trying toconvert ME!!!!!!!

[Jo March]

48. Darn it! I had "Convert Napi21" on my schedule for next week!

You take the fun out of everything!

;)

[LostinVA]

59. I'm not talking about political clout, I'm talking belief system

So, there is really very little difference. And, at least Baptists have to send their kids to school until they're 16.

[deathdog]

211. No they don't

I see "homeschooled" fundie kids running around all the time. They don't have to go to school at all.

[Bluerthanblue]

68. add to that, they

don't contribute to much too the global warming problems this world faces thanks in large part to American need and greed.

:dunce:

[LostinVA]

74. That cow poo causes methane

[Bluerthanblue]

89. and methane can be used

in positive ways-
Grew up "family farm"- and during the 70's folks really started getting smart about ways to use energy and live 'green' began.... then came the ray-gun years, and all that went out the window.

:silly:

[LostinVA]

101. I know, Ray-gun ruined the bovine methane market...

[deathdog]

212. Traitors. nt

[progressivebydesign]

223. Umm are you forgetting Bush's photo op with the Amish? n/t

[madokie]

34. All I know is they don't play fair when it comes to competing with them

for work. They don't pay taxes so they have an edge over us who do. When you hire them and get ready to pay them you either give them cash or make the check out to their church, the church cashes the check and they keep their 10%. They all have tax numbers so the money they pay for fuel, tires etc is not taxed. I've competed with the Amish all my life and have done alright but only because of my good quality work and fast completion, can't compete with me on those two fronts. Oh, did I mention that they drive their tractors down the roads at a max of 20 to 30 or so mph and some won't move over to let you pass and due to the winding roads around here sometimes you might have to follow them for miles before they finally get to where their going, forget honking your horn or giving them a finger, they'll just honk their horn back at ya' and most have one mounted on the rear of their tractors just for that and the finger, well it don't faze 'em. Lots of inbreding too, in fact the girls from here now are shipped off to other states where there is a lot of them just because of this. Anyways I really have no problems, I have just learned to live with them

[LostinVA]

61. The tax thing is interesting -- I never thought of that

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. My cousin lived near an Amish colony in western PA

and she talked a lot about the inbreeding. (She knows that topic interests me since I am a special ed teacher.) Anyway, she used to tell me how very bizarre many of them were, with extreme hard looks on their faces. She also thought they taught their children to never smile.

[madokie]

90. Actually it's pretty sad the life they live

it has to have an effect on the kids to be somewhat of an outcast. When the kids are visiting someone who has tv's, radios, phones etc you can't hardly drag them away.

[Bluerthanblue]

250. and that is a bad thing????

no tv, video-games-, "just gotta have those NIKE's", corporate america wants to buy your soul stuff???
Geez, there are a lot of people living lives that don't include much of the 'fluff' technology we have, TV's tell YOU what you will think, they indoctrinate your children into believing that to be "in" you have to have- have- have- more, more, more-

And these things ARE addictive, and counter to a healthy life- I think the life many of today's hectic, frenzied, superficial 'fulfillment' families are sad- more than sad, they contribute to the waste and destruction of the worlds natural recources, and still cannot find 'contentment'. - Note, I said 'many'- there are individuals in all groups.

We lived without a TV for most of my kids childhood- still only have 3 channels, one of which is public tv- It was a far healthier life- Farenheit 451 is a good book to re-read. Our brains don't need to be 'spoon fed' they can choose pretty healthy, enlightening stuff, when left to their own devices.

[deathdog]

213. They pay taxes. They don't pay social security

but they don't draw it, either. They are required to pay all other taxes. If you are not withholding, you're in violation of the law. But the Amish pay taxes.

[Jo March]

36. Most posts that I've seen have brought up these things

The posts that I've seen have said that the Amish and their willingness to forgive is extremely Christlike and is in accordance to the teachings of Christ.

I've not read where anyone has stated that they are perfect.

And many of them are gentle and do follow the pacifist teachings of Christ.

The lesson to take away here is this: When someone hurts you, no matter how horribly, you should forgive them and not react with violence, retribution or a crime even worse than the one committed against you. That's a hard thing to do.

[LostinVA]

62. I totally agree with that

[Jo March]

71. Great. Now, let's go and have a beer!

Well, I don't drink but here you go anyway:

:beer:

[LostinVA]

75. Agreed!

:beer:

[Jo March]

79. You are enjoying that beer way too much

I'm cutting you off!! ;)

[madrchsod]

39. is there any links to back up your statements about the amish?

there are several thousand of amish and reformed/mennonites in this area and i have never heard anything like you have described. i find those accusations disturbing.
as for them being good christians that would be up to ones personal opinion of how one should live a christian life. i`m

[LostinVA]

64. Lots of links, as I said in my OP

If you Google, they'll be even more.

They aren't accusations, they are legal facts. ON the record facts.

[madrchsod]

134. worse than i want to think about it--thanks for the enlightenment

[LostinVA]

152. No worries -- they live in very insular communities

And alot of people just know what they see in movies (Witness), or driving through "Amish areas." They are just people, ruled by a patriarchal, religiously strict, self-governing system... that combination is just ripe for abuse.

[femrap]

66. Here's a link...an interview with an Amish

woman....be forewarned.

http://www.newsbackup.com/about475373.html

[LostinVA]

46. Just so I don't get accused of refusing to answer people

I have to help a friend with something, then "Lost" is coming on. I apologize for bowing out of a heated discussion I started.

[Jo March]

49. Sure! Just leave us standing in the rubble!

And me without a bullhorn... ;)

[LostinVA]

65. Well, it's a few minutes more!

[Jo March]

83. I like to stand on the rubble and yell things into a bullhorn

It makes me feel manly.



:evilgrin:

[cui bono]

50. I hadn't heard all of that but I did hear...

that in Indiana there's a big Amish community and they are making meth in their garages. Big time.

I also heard about how when they turn 16 they have a few weeks to go out into the "real" world and experience whatever they want then come back and settle back into Amish life.

[LostinVA]

67. I know about Rumspinga, but the meth labs?

:wow: :wow: :wow:

[HughBeaumont]

154. In the documentary "Devil's Playground" . ..

.. . where that picture above comes from, one of the kids on rumspringa becomes a meth addict and a drug dealer, and it's not uncommon for them to fall into that world. Their parties are like huge drug and drink-soaked raves. This is what happens when you let kids with a 9th grade education (most likely never taught what the "bad" English are like) function as if they were adults.

[deathdog]

216. I've never heard of any meth labs

but rumspringa can last more than a few weeks. In some districts it lasts years, and kids are perfectly free to leave during or after it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. Everything's relative. No "700 club" and they do make good chairs.

Nonviolence is a big plus in which they compare favorably to "mainstream" christians.

[KittyWampus]

58. In the sense that they strive to forgive the offender, they're christ-like

[LostinVA]

69. Okay, that I can agree with 100%!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

77. They are human beings but they do attempt to live their faith

as much as many of us would disagree with their practices. They are not very popular in their communities, actually. Except as tourism draws.

[Matariki]

81. Isn't your attack on Amish a little like saying all Gay are pedophiles?

Because you read something about incest in an Amish family, you assume they are all like that?

[countryjake]

88. It seems to have become the "progressive" thing to do...

pretty strange, considering that they are one of the most ostracized religions in this country.

[LostinVA]

102. Hmmm... glad to see you really read and understood what I wrote

NOT.

And, I betcha I have loads more Progressive cred than you, boyo.

[countryjake]

125. What is a "boyo"? I see very clearly what you've written...

and understand that you have an irrational contempt for a bunch of people whom you really know barely a thing about, aside from what you've heard in reports by sensationalist news sources, and more importantly, you have chosen to condemn that group here in this forum. What is the reasoning behind that?

Let me ask you, what is it you would like to see done to these people, aside from the slanders I've seen you write here?

How would you deal with them and their culture?

[smirkymonkey]

201. I am amazed at how many people don't really read the OP.

Either that, or their reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

Or they are just being assholes and are purposely trying to harass you. (not that I am calling anyone in particular an asshole :) )

From what I gather, the point of the OP is this:

Amish people are human beings like anyone else, some are good, some are bad and most are a little bit of both. Closed religious systems can be oppressive, especially for women and children. Not every single Amish person is as loving and forgiving as they are portrayed by certain sources (no group, anywhere, comprised of human beings are completely loving or forgiving, including the Amish.)

Some people on DU have been making sweeping generalizations about how "Christlike" the Amish are. The OP is pointing out that this is not always the case, she/he is NOT saying that ALL of them are bad or "unChristlike." Those of you accusing the OP of saying that he/she is bashing ALL Amish people are not getting it.

Once again, black and white thinking rules the day. sheesh. :eyes:

[LostinVA]

95. Considering I'm gay, no, it's not -- and I attacked no one

No.... if you read many, many, many, many articles and interviews, you'll see that certain social behaviors are considered epistemic in many Amish communities by local law enforcement and DSS people. And, by English and Mennonite neighbors. Social behaviors that often exist in insular, strictly religious communities.

And, I never said it was all Amish. NICE STRAWPERSON. And, I mentioned loads of stuff other than incest.

All I stated was that there are way too many posts on DU who are kinda confused about the Amish's belief system and culture... it's not all quaint, "Christlike," and Harrison Ford raising a barn.

The Amish are people -- good, bad, in between. Their belief system is inherently set up to cause certain not so great things. They aren't a fantasy, they are a reality.

And again, I think their belief of total forgiveness IS CHristlike, and is kinda awe-inspiring.

Any other strawmen? My neighbor is late, so I have some time.

[Matariki]

115. wanna talk about strawmen

how does your being gay invalidate the comparison of your broad-brush portrayal of Amish as incestuous, etc. with broad-brush portrayals of gays as pedophiles? You're inferring criminal behavior by a whole group of people based on the actions of a few. Unless you have some real proof that incest is endemic in the Amish community, it's a pretty prejudiced and crappy thing to infer.

You say there are "many, many, many, many articles and interviews" - I think you are exaggerating. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Amish folk - why?

[cool user name]

85. Sweeping generalizations won't serve your argument.

It just won't.

[LostinVA]

97. I didn't make any sweeping generalizations

I added a disclaimer to that effect since so many of you seemed to want to accuse me of that. The Old Order belief system(s) are inherently set up for abuse unless every single person within that community is a perfect human being. It is very, very similar to how hardline Muslims treat their women and children, or any other religious Fundamentalist.

Nice strawperson, though.

[LostinVA]

99. Oh, and my argument is backed up by lots of facts.

[cynatnite]

87. We have a lot to learn from them...

about forgiveness, peace and love.

Having said that, you are right. They're teachings are from the bible which does go against many of my own values.

It doesn't lessen the respect I have for them for their ability to forgive, their self-reliance, desire for peace and other attributes we should see more of.

[LostinVA]

98. Agree 100%

[bridgit]

135. agreed...

[hlthe2b]

91. They don't force their theocracy on the rest of us...

They have never even tried... Further, their teens are at liberty to explore outside the society during a one year period to decide if they wish to stay "in the fold" or leave.

The beauty of freedom of religion is that we can respect THEIR decision to live as they wish--as a theocracy, while they abide within the larger rule of law...

Bottom line... THEY DON'T TRY TO FORCE THEIR THEOCRACY ON THE REST OF US... I respect that tremendously...

[johnnie]

94. That's it exactly

Hell, I don't care how people think as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat and they don't hurt people. Funny how some people here, even on DU, demands that everyone think like them.

[LostinVA]

104. I love your posts, hlthe2b

So, forgive me if I use you as an "example" in this post: several posters on this thread have mentioned the Amish aren't as bad as other Fundies, because they don't force their theocracy on us. Hmmm... neither do Jeffs and the FLDS... BUT they re forcing it on vulnerable people within their comminty... t6hey don't thrust their theocracy on us because they don't want to associate with people not of their own kind -- they are very, very insular... I think often in a bad way... but I digress.

My thesis was that their belief system is no different than any other Christian or Muslim Fundie that we rail against every day here on DU... they are not some perfect little group of people. To reiterate: their idea of absolute forgiveness is terrific.

[hlthe2b]

124. I doubt anyone is holding the AMISH up as a perfect society...

They have their problems, just as every other society in history. They have chosen to solve the majority of their problems from within. Would I want to live within such a closed society? Not particularly, although I might feel different if I had grown up there. One thing I learned from several work (teaching) stints in some of the most fundamentalist Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, is that that some of what the "west" perceives as intolerable (women not allowed to drive, being required to "cover" and be escorted by a male relative, etc, etc) are often STRONGLY defended by the most progressive and western-educated women in their society...Go figure...

The bottom line, though is one has to be fairly open to fully understand a culture... Things are not always as they seem, and sometimes, just sometimes, these societies MAY have elements that we could benefit from...


Say what you will of the Amish, though. They have held true to their beliefs. They are a peaceful people who do not cause harm to others and simply want to live their lives. Compare that to other religious groups who preach sacredness of life, while they defend war, the death penalty, torture--or jihad, in the case of exreme Islam.

Do the Amish have problems within--that sometimes requires some intervention from without? Definitely. I think they would acknowledge that as well. I also think that abuse issues, domestic violence and all the other significant societal ills have increased significantly among old order Amish. However, to be fair, these are increasing throughout US society as well. Just goes to show that no matter how much they might wish to be insulated from the rest of us, they really are not. Human nature is human nature and good goes with the bad...

Thanks, btw, for your kind words, LostinVA

[LostinVA]

155. There were quite a few DUers yesterday who posted their community/religi

was true/pure Christianity, and how Christ lived. That's what prompted my OP... because we tend not to praise patriarch, religious strict, self-governing governments and communities on DU... and it was disheartening to keep seeing such a system upheld as a shining example of Christ. I'm not a Christian anymore, but the words and actions attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, especially the Synoptic Gospels, are a great guide for how to treat one another, so hearing these things transposed to a religious and cultural system that often strays from from Christ's words and actions drove me round the bend. As my granny would say.

[hlthe2b]

167. I'm sorry, LostinVA

but I'm sensing anger towards Christianity, that is seemingly overtly projected on the Amish from you... Not, that I could not understand such anger towards organized religion in general, but the focus on the Amish culture specifically seems rather indirect...Ok, that's enough psychobabble, but my comment is sincere.

While some DUers may be caught up in excessive and exaggerated rhetoric, I suspect what they are trying to underscore is the Amish reaction to the killings--namely one of forgiveness, rather than revenge. At a time when so many of the so-called "Christian" Right wing responds to nearly everything with demands for vengeance and violence, hatred, I can understand why. Certainly, in their response to this tragedy, the Amish are acting in a manner consistant with their Christianity. That doesn't mean they are PURE or TRUE or PERFECT Christians...

While there are incidents of abuse and societal ills in the Amish society, you seem to have a need to excoriate them for this far more than our own society...? I don't condone it in either culture, but both are based on patriarchal models, not only the Amish. While "we" (US society at large) might be slowly evolving, and perhaps less willing to sweep problems as abuse under the rug, we have a very long way to go before we can truly hold ourselves up as "better" than the Amish.


Just my thoughts.. Again, sorry for the Freud moment, but reading your posts, I can't help but feel a wider anger...:shrug:

[LostinVA]

273. HAHAHAHHANo anger at Christianity from me at all.

And, I have to say, your narrow-mined judgment of me frigging pisses me off. EVeryone I love is Christian, I greatly admire the message in the Gospels. If you had actually bothered to read my posts on this thread, you would see I'm talking about Fundamentalist systems of all kinds, and people being compared to Christ who's system is far, far from that. And, if you bothered to read other posts of mine, you would know that I contimnual;ly and consistently stick up for Christians of all non-nutty stripes on various threads.

Geez, I hate to this, but I'm stopping the dialog with you. I've very much enjoyed your posts, but these very personal, totally IGNORANT and judge mental comments of yours toward me crosses the line.

I am very upset at your post. Of all the nasty posts I have ever had directed at me on DU, even the one calling me a cunt, THIS one angers me the most.

NIce stereotype.

Will if make you feel better if I start a thread just like this one, but about conservative Muslim men? Would you say I have an anger with Islam? Of course you wouldn't.

Ugh.

[Dorian Gray]

179. Perhaps that is true...

but Jeffs and the FLDS are participating in very illegal actions: pedophilia and multiple marriage brokering.

The Amish are just living their lives. There may be instances of incest or rape, but there are instances of both in regular society. They are NOT a part of the religious creed or dogmatic beliefs of the people. They are severe abuses that should be treated by the authorities as such. But, they are in no way religious tenets.

Comparing FLDS to the Amish is wrong. The actual raison d'etre for Jeffs is the illegal practice of plural marriages with minors. If that weren't the main driving factor of their "church," there would be no need for separation from society.

It is unfair to compare the two as they are very different. The primary purpose behind one is illegal, immoral, and abusive. While some abuses may occur in the Amish communities, they are not condoned or perpetuated as doctrinal acts.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

169. Depends who you mean by "the rest of us".

If there were no Amish children, and the only people living in their society were those who had chosen to live there of their own free will, I'd have relatively few problems with them.

Given that this is not the case, and children born there have a great deal of pressure on them not to leave (same as children in many other communities), then if what the OP says is true then I don't think "they don't try and make 'us' live like that" is sufficient defence.

[High Plains]

183. Not a sufficient defense? Against what?

Not living up to the moral standards of a bunch of keyboard commandos?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

188. Yes.

You make it sound like "not living up to a moral standard" is a small thing.

Your implication that the only people who object to the practices the OP is alleging are "keyboard commandos" is, I suspect, widely mistaken.

[onenote]

93. aren't all religions "theocracies" by definition?

I wouldn't choose to be Amish. But I also wouldn't choose to belong to a variety of religions. I do choose to be a member of a particular religion. It has "rules", just as every religion has rules. The rules the religion I belong to are more liberal and less controlling than the rules imposed by the Amish, but they're still rules. Its a matter of degree not kind. Orthodox members of many faiths, including orthodox Catholics, Jews, or Muslims, all have a variety of rules that they impose on their members. But they're not the government so they aren't really theocrats in the sense that term is usually used. Within their own faiths they are theocracies, but their religions, so what else would they be?

YOu are correct that the law has carved out exceptions for the Amish. Its also carved out exceptions for other religions in some or lesser ways (wearing of skull caps, to name one). But in any event, its you and me ... or that is to say, the members of a democratic society, that has chosen to adopt the special rules (and/or the Constitutional provision) that gives the Amish (as well as member of other religious sects) "special" privileges.

[Midlodemocrat]

96. You are right. I have a friend who lived with them and he reported all

the things you have said.

I think people here, myself included, may have gotten a little *verklempt* at the thought of their forgiving this man, and may be overlooking the patriarchy of which you are speaking.

That being said, I can't decide between which is more cruel, the 'silencing' practiced at West Point, or the 'shunning' practiced by the Amish. I know for a fact the latter has driven people mad. I've seen it.

[LostinVA]

109. I know I couldn't forgive someone who did that to my child

Not at first, and probably never wholly. I honestly believe that many of them can. That is either very admirable or crazy, depending on your viewpoint. I myself got "verklemot" at the old man saying that... and at the parents huddling around their kids like a protective hen guarding her chicks. I love that. And, it choked me up... just as inagining what that guy did to those little girls made me cry.

Is the "silencing" the same as shunning?

[Book Lover]

103. I think it's because people want to think well of an old man

being interviewed, who says things they want to hear.

And let's all not forget that the capacity for forgiveness is not solely a christian trait: I am reminded of a gentleman interviewed on the streets of London by the BBC the morning of the bombings on 7/7. He quietly stated that he felt sorry for the perpetrators, and that he wanted to forgive them.

on edit: One more thing - One person publicly stated that all members forgave the gunman. It is not possible for him to know what is in everyone's hearts. I daresay there are those who do not forgive him, and who will not speak up about it (for whatever reason). Therein lies the trouble with "we."

[Mike03]

105. Point Taken

Thanks for bringing these facts to attention. You are probably correct. I guess what I was (and perhaps others were)responding to--was most touched by--is how quickly they forgave this horrific individual. After so much violence and unremitting bloodshed and cowboy talk from our current leaders, it was so damned refreshing to hear a response that truly epitomized not only sincere Christian but also Buddhist and other world religion beliefs--the teaching of forgiveness and peace rather than Bush's psychotic lust for vengeance, a mindset that has permeated the United States and turned rational people into crazed dogs of war. I really don't know that much about the Amish other than what was reported this past week.

But you make very intelligent points.

[LostinVA]

110. No, I totally agree with you

Whenever ANYONE of any -- or no -- spiritual background can forgive an unspeakable wrong... wow. And, the earlier posts in other threads on this didn't bother me. I think I just read one too many posts lauding the wonderful Amish religion and culture as CHrist-like in every way... etc. I probably should have had a mojito or two and stayed off the PC for the rest of the night.

Thanks for your post!

[Mike03]

107. K & R

[razors edge]

111. More complex an issue than it looks on the surface.

When people used to come to America for religious freedom, that is exactly what they came for. The freedom to practice a way of life in their own way. The amish were not the only ones who wanted this nor were all who wanted to live in freedom extremely religious. Some groups would naturally accept outside influence more than others based on experience.

Actual freedom from another's rule is just that, no two ways about it. The amish don't pay SS and had their cattle confiscated regularly until a couple of younger men stood up to the revenuers and the issue went all the way to the WH (don't remember which) and they were exempted since they had never accepted any SS nor would they, and removing their livestock left them no way to make money to pay taxes or live for that matter. And they still were sovereigns.

Keeping a free society like theirs is nearly impossible since the moment you are given a SS card, drivers license, or any type of state identification, you have lost the status as sovereign and become a lowly citizen, living under the collective rules of other cultures imposed by mob rule, aka democracy and true freedom is over.

Democracy is not true freedom, (flame away) example:

1-man, 2-women, man votes for sex with the women, the women vote no. any sex would be in violation of democratic rule.

Reverse the genders and... you get the point.

Not all who came here looking for freedom were as closed off from others but also wanted the most freedom they could hold onto such as the swiss, http://mysite.verizon.net/davewhipp/. While they don't have the same so called theocratic designs on life as have been expressed here about the amish. Most all property in the town is owned by descendants of the original settlers. (I have been trying to find 20 acres near here for some time, it ain't easy)

So to say that the amish are a theocracy is not entirely true since the laws of their society have been developed by the exercise of their own freedom of self determination. A freedom alien and strange to us but one they obviously have worked out for themselves without attempting to impose it on others, very similar to our own, with some bad flaws to be worked out, either on their own or with the intervention that has killed freedom for so many.

I would prefer they be given that chance, they have shown no danger to us and simply ask none from us. Thats freedom baby.

Puppy Mills? How many monkey have we shoved probes into?




:rant:

[LostinVA]

116. I haven't shoved probes into any monkey

I'm totally against animal testing. And, just because Company A does that, doesn't make the puppy mills right.

And, if one reads the Bible and truly believes it, then one wouldn't run puppy mills.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, because I consider their society a patriarchal theocracy allowed by the US Government in a nation that should be a democracy.

Many Amish have moved to Belize because some local laws in the US have went against them, and because of DSS probes into child and domestic abuse. They live over the mountains and across the rain-forests, and the Belize government leaves them alone.

[razors edge]

121. I was referring to

America in general, we all wounder at the marvels of the space program and computers, etc. These were all developed using animal experimentation. It continues to this day since we require a company to show a hazard level associated with their products, the testing continues. Would you buy a skin lotion not tested and approved? Not many will and our democracy (FDA)requires it before a product hits the market, not to mention product liability issues.

The bible also says all plants and animals were put here for our use, so it's all in the way you read it. Thats why I don't believe any of it. But just because I don't believe in it I won't tell a believer they are wrong, I don't know, tell you when I'm dead.

I don't advocate puppy mills, I think they are repulsive, but as long as yuppies will pay a grand for a dog instead of adopting like I have, someone will fill that market. I have no problem with the supplier be it drugs or dogs, and if you ever lived on a farm or rural community and dealt with animals you would know that a pet is one thing and an animal raised for profit is nothing more than livestock. I don't think we disagree as much as you do, but I am also understanding of the mindset of livestock handlers.

If the religious right takes firm control of all law in america in violation of your beliefs and imposes it's law on you I bet you will vote with your feet also. Just as the gays or rape victims in some Muslim countries are beheaded and we feel it oppressive, I think those who would deal with their domestic situations in a way consistent with their own beliefs that is way more lenient than you or I would consider fitting feel our detention and abuse system unjust. Not to mention that sending them away will expose them to influences that will never be acceptable in their own communities and that will lead to an expulsion from that community with redemption and acceptance never being an option, this is not smart to a population challenged society. We have many kids to send of to the prison industrial complex and forget about, they don't.

Different strokes for different folks. Democracy is good enough for me, it better be, I spent four in the corps defending it. In my youthful indiscretions I have found myself awaking in a strangers home in the Philippines to a knock on the door, my host answered the door and purchased a small dog and after some questioning she told me the dog was for dinner. I ate on base that night but I don't look too harshly on others for differing belief in what is right or wrong. It won't change human nature.

What I have said is cold and that is not something most will agree with as long as life is good, but perceptions can change if needed, I hope your's never need to. The world needs more like you.

[semillama]

174. wait a minute

what animals were used in developing COMPUTERS? Space program, yeah, animals, but computers?

[razors edge]

191. ever read a

Material Safety Data Sheet? (MSDS) it contains information on all chemicals used in industry and is required by OSHA. Any chemical used has to be tasted for several things, not least of which is LD50, or at what concentration death occurs in 50% of tests conducted. Most often rats are used but many times rabbits are needed for testing that is not compatible with rats.

So it is virtually impossible to purchase any industry produced item that in some way did not contribute to animal experimentation.

http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/ld50.html

Both LC50 and LD50 values state the animal used in the test. This is important because animal toxicity studies do not necessarily extrapolate (extend) to humans. For example, dioxins (of Love Canal, Times Beach, Sveso and Agent Orange fame) are highly toxic to guinea pigs and ducklings at extremely low levels, but have never been conclusively linked to a single human death even at very high levels of acute (short term) exposure. However, it is best to err on the safe side when evaluating animal toxicity studies and assume that most chemicals that are toxic to animals are toxic to humans.

Typical units for LD50 values are milligrams or grams of material per kilogram of body weight (mg/kg or g/kg, recall that 1 kg = 2.2 pounds).

If for instance acetone is used in producing plastics for your mouse (no pun intended) an MSDS must be present in the work place and similarly testing was done to allow the use of said chemical.

[semillama]

240. ah, gotcha

boy. that must present quite a problem for some of those vigorouslly opposed to animal testing.

[razors edge]

254. It is inescapable.

It isn't like mabeline is going to show up at walmart, set up a display with fuzzy critters in cages in the background and then commence to demonstrate the safety of their products.

My second wife was a loyal member of PETA and went to Nova Scotia to spray paint seal pups.

I feel for them, but the all mighty dollar reins supreme.

[LTR]

114. They keep to themselves...

...and don't try to shove their beliefs down my throat.

Good enough for me.

And they seemed so quaint in the movie "Kingpin".

[LostinVA]

117. It bothers me, personally, that they shove their beliefs down

the throats of people within their community... usually the vulnerable and helpless (women, kids). The FLDS doesn't bother me, either, but I wish every single one of those criminals would be thrown into Federal prisons. So, I wish that the predators and criminals within some Amish Orders would be thrown into prison, an their victims released from their control.

[razors edge]

123. I'm sure you will show some proof of what you claim

and compare it in a percapita comparison to show us there is some problem here with these people that must be dealt with, right?

[LostinVA]

157. I already have -- over and over again

As have other people on this and other threads.

ice try, though.

[deathdog]

279. You've given stats?

Could you post 'em again? Somehow I missed 'em.

[deathdog]

215. Amish kids, of both genders, are free to go during their teens

They are baptised late in their teens, precisely so they can think through their decision to join the order. There are social pressures, but also opportunities to leave.

[LostinVA]

118. Okay, I really have to go now

Thanks to everyone for debating and discussing this.

Enjoy "Lost" this evening!

[TorchTheWitch]

119. Essentially you're right

However, since you don't actually live around these people, you don't understand that geographically they CAN'T be as insular as most people believe. For example, the community is question is NOT all Amish. Most of the people in the area AREN'T Amish. There is no "Amish people section" where one crosses some invisible line from the regular community into the Amish "section". Most of the Amish families have next door neighbors who aren't... and they take advantage of that (running next door to ask that a phone call be made for them, etc). The insular aspect of them is more of a state of mind and cultural thing than anything else... much like Orthodox Jews. The Amish "community" is really no more of a geographical thing than any other "community". Though they primarily live in very back-of-beyond rural areas, so do a hell of a lot of other people who AREN'T Amish... and there are more non-Amish than Amish in those areas. They live and work amongst non-Amish and form attachments to non-Amish just as you and I do.

The Old Order is a lot more physically insular, but geographically they CAN'T be as much as they'd like to, and there are far more "regular" Amish than Old Order. I also agree that particular among Old Order Amish their reasoning for being so insular and wanting to cut out as much of non-Amish as they can is because of not wanting to follow the same rules and laws as the rest of us do. Domestic abuse/child abuse/animal abuse among them is RAMPANT. And you're right, they don't want the law poking among them for that reason... they believe they have a divine right to abuse who/what they wish. You're also right that they provide most of the pups for the area mills, and they not only see no problem with it, they refuse to stop.

Where they don't allow themselves to OWN fancy cars, electronical gagetry, fashion magazines, blue jeans, etc. they have the same facination and interest in those things that we do, particularly the younger generation... and that gets more inflamed as more years pass. The men will admire a neat little sports car and kick the tires just as any man I know would, but they won't own one and probably wouldn't drive one. The women will ooh and ahh over fashion magazines and smear on lipstick, but they'll wash the lipstick off right away and won't buy the magazine or wear any of the clothes they portray. Wouldn't surprise me if the men wear regular jockey briefs under their pants and the women wear bikini underwear under their dresses. They're more careful of their outward appearance is approriate for their own community but in private and in their minds they are mostly no different than you and me. Like most repressive communities, they are private among outsiders as well as WITHIN their own community.

Part of the problem with the general area meth problem is that some of the Amish are selling it. Two Amish young men got busted for selling, and they weren't just selling among the non-Amish, and that was back in 1998, it's a lot worse now...
http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/01/amish.unholy.alliance/

As insular as they are, all of us who actually live around them are hardly surprised that they behave, think and have the same kind of problems that any other group of people have. I've lived around them all my life and have never understood the idea I hear from those who haven't about how different they are, and how cut off from the rest of society, don't allow themselves to be photographed, etc. etc. because it's all bunk. Sure, they're more insular than non-Amish, but it's NOTHING like what most people who aren't familiar with them believe. So many times I've been asked by travelers for directions to the "Amish town"... uh... there IS no "Amish town". They're all over the place meshed within the regular community. Mostly they'll be farther west in the more rural areas, but they're found working all over Philly burbs, and you may even find a couple walking down a Philly street. Most of my friends grew up and still live in Lancaster County where they went to school with Amish kids... yeah, most Amish kids attend regular public school but drop out before high school.

More and more of the Amish community is realizing that more education is necessary for their children in order for them to live in the modern world. Essentially, the Amish are farmers, but there is less and less available land, and more and more Amish finding it necessary to sell out. Circumstances have forced many to embrace some aspects of the modern world in order to continue to survive. One of my friends has a landlord who is Amish... they'll buy rental properties, fix them up into small apartments and rent them out. There are all kinds of business opportunities that the Amish have been forced by circumstances to embrace that is outside of what they've traditionally always done.

I don't find them to be any more "Christ-like" than any other Christians, but they absolutely portray the outward APPEARANCE of that. In their hearts and minds they are just as angry and upset about what just happened within their community as any of us would be. At the moment, they are clinging to their traditions and faith to help them cope, but whether that works for all of them or not remains to be seen. They'll go off into their private little world and take out their anger and disgust in personal ways that will be just as nasty as what goes on behind the closed doors of any other non-Amish people.

[LostinVA]

120. I grew up very close to Philly

And, I didn't live among them (just visited!), but I know people who have and do... they say stuff really close to what you've written.

INteresting post -- thanks!

[TorchTheWitch]

147. I didn't know you grew up in this area! COOL!

Do you ever come to visit? (come visit! come visit! :bounce:) Oh come on... you know you want to! :)

[LostinVA]

158. Very rarely, however

I would like to meet Lynnesin and eat a real cheesesteak or two, so I'm hoping to come up in the Spring.

Haven't seen you posting much lately!

[JVS]

130. I once knew a girl who worked in the Woolworth's in Lancaster

She said that that was where young amish would come to buy frilly lingerie on the cheap.

[TorchTheWitch]

146. They did when there was a Woolworth's in Wayne

Wayne is on the Mainline, close to where I grew up... a Philly burb. That's actually what I was thinking of when I made the underwear/lipstick/magazine comments. That Woolworths is long gone now, but I remember they were always shopping in there... they were buying the stuff while the little thugs I hung out with in my youth were contemplating swiping stuff. ;)

Man, I miss that Woolworth's with it's old-fashioned soda fountain and creaky floor. *sigh* :)

[spacelady]

128. I am going to state my take without benefit of reading all the posts---

Here goes: The Amish community not only talk the talk, they walk the walk & that is the difference. They remind me of bewildered old people & nothing can start me emoting & crying more than innocent elderly people who are thrust into a disaster not of their own making and their struggle to make sense of the incomprehensible.

[Rowdyboy]

133. I also have no interest in reading vitriol againt the Amish.....I share yo

feeling and wish that people would respect their right to a very different lifestyle.

[LostinVA]

159. No vitriol at all in any post I see

[deathdog]

217. You're kidding, right?

[LostinVA]

271. No, I'm not

Hating an insular, patriarchal system that often leads to abusing women and children is not the same as vitriol. If you think so, then every time we write a post against ANY system like that, we are engaging in that. Guess DUers need to quit complaining about female "circumcision." hardline Muslim attitudes toward women, Christian Fundies' attitudes against women, the FLDS abuses, anti-choice stuff, anti-gay stuff, etc. If you think there's a difference, you're mistaken.

Loads of disconnects on this thread. Very weird to em that so many don't get that Amish belief system = Fundamentalist, patriarchal, anti-women system.

" Bitterly abusive feeling or expression.'

Nope, not a post.

[deathdog]

274. According to Wikipedia, and I'm sure I can find other sources as well

There is no more sexual abuse, incest, domestic violence, etc among the Amish than in the general population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Abuse_controversy

So, really, what is your issue with the Amish?

[LostinVA]

160. They don't talk the talk NOR walk the walk of Christ, imo

Although, I totally give them kudos on their ideal of forgiveness.

If you had read the posts, you would see there isn't one post that slams the Amish -- just the abuses within their patriarchal, religiously strict, self-governing system. The point of my OP is that they have this system which is as detrimental to many within the system as any Fundamentalist religion, and thus aren't "true or the purest Christianity." We on DU tend to not praise systems that do this to women and children, yet the Old Order Amish ARE being praised by many on here. Very strange to me.

[The Straight Story]

136. So...who you trying to convert with your beliefs tonight?

I have lived in and around amish for many years in my 40 years of life here in Ohio (Mount Vernon, Circleville, Laurelville, just to name a few places I have lived here).

These people represenet to me exactly what our country should be - people free to live and associate how they see fit. I read a really good book once on the experiments in american communities from the 1800s-1920's. Lots of places cropped up from quakers to communists, etc, and were allowed to live in their own little world. Few survived for a variety of reasons (the socialist ones failed pretty poorly, except the ones like amish and quakers, who one could argue are also socialist).

These folks choose a life, choose rules and religion, and live it according to their beliefs, not yours or mine. I think some of it is downright silly, but I sure as hell respect them for doing what so few others have done.

I have interacted with many and found them to be actually sweet and kind folk, yet stern and driven. The men have just as many weights as the women to carry, and it seems to me the women have the better life IMHO in their community overall.

Perfect? Hell no. A good friend of mine in Mt Vernon was actually an attorney who represented several large families there (yes, they do use attorneys) and he had some interesting stories to tell - but when it came to their daily life and beliefs he was in awe of them. Self sufficient, easy going, and they treated each other very well and fairly (with some exceptions).

The amish seem to have the right ideals, I just cannot practice their faith fully myself as I am not as strict in interpretation of things as they are. But all the ones I have interacted with over the years have been genuine and good hearted.

[bridgit]

138. the Amish are imo quite different from Baptists...

O8)

[LostinVA]

162. Out of curiosity

HOW is their patriarchal,, religiously strict belief system different from Baptists? Excluding the pacifist angle. They are anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-science, anti-women's rights, etc.

[bridgit]

185. they are different for many other reasons, you are perhaps overly...

keyed upon the 'patriarchal' component for reasons-personal, completely other & internalized; Amish aren't known for handling snakes, talking in tongues, and rolling on the floor so as to say; nor are they known to rome the land pitching tents and proselytizing behind a Hammond B-3 organ to the tunes of: 'get up on this' & 'jeebus is just all right with me'

[pitohui]

139. no one here would be willing to live like that

but they're perfectly happy for other women and children to have to live like that

other people's pain is local color

[LostinVA]

163. BINGO

That's why the comments about how they are okay because they don't shove their theocracy down our throats is disturbing to me. Since when has THAT been a benchmark for disapproving of how others are treated?

[lastliberalintexas]

181. Seriously

This thread has served up quite a few wtf moments.

[LostinVA]

267. I'm glad I'm not then only one

I started this thread, and am frankly appalled at some of the responses -- specifically the vitriol thrown at me for daring to criticize this group -- quite a few posters asking me "What they've done to me," etc. I'm part of HUmankind. That's the only thing standard there is.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

184. Thank you!

I cannot abide any religion or group of people where women are repressed and children are abused because the Bible says it's neccessary.

THAT IS NOT CHRIST-LIKE.

And I also do not believe "freedom of religion" means allowing cruel and/or criminal behavior. For me, "freedom of religion" ends when it impinges on an individual's civil rights.

And this should apply to any religious group, be they Amish, Catholic, Muslims, or Buddhist.

[greyl]

140. They don't shop at Wal-mart, drive SUVs, eat at McDonalds,

drink Coke, wear Old Navy, or contribute hundreds of pounds of non-biodegradable waste every year. That's pretty tough to beat, as far as Christians are concerned. ;)

[semillama]

173. actually, they do shop at walmart

I lived for two years in Tomah, Wisconsin, behind the Walmart. The Walmart had hitching posts for the Amish to tie up their horses to when they came in to shop in their buggies. Saw them in their all the time.

(Yeah, I shopped there too - Tomah is so small there was literally no other option within 80 miles).

[greyl]

182. Ah, screw 'em then, they're evil. ;)

Ok, how 'bout they don't pay 90 dollars to have their fingernails painted with confederate flags?

[deathdog]

218. They also eat at McDonald's and drink coke. They are evil.

[spinbaby]

231. I saw a horse and buggy there once

Near Altoona. A young man drove his horse and buggy right through the drive-through to get his burgers.

[greyl]

235. I'm sure there are examples - I was going for the non-mindless-consumer

angle when contrasted with pop-culture Christians.

[wholetruth00]

142. As agroup among groups they are far better than most.

Sure there are some among them who are bad apples and everything that happens in the larger society happens in their communities. What sets them apart is the way they handle whatever happens in their communities. No one ever said they were perfect human beings, but they come a lot closer than most of us.

[pitohui]

143. yeah like i said

you wouldn't be willing to live like that forever but it's somehow okay if someone else has to

come on, life like that sucks, i have a mennonite grandparent, thank god due to fate and a merry widow in the family background i am not a mennonite and caught like a rat in a trap in a lack of choices forever

[LostinVA]

272. Well, I'd say most of us on this board probably come alot closer

to a sense of real Christianity, no matter or spiritual bent )or lack thereof).

[zonkers]

144. Cause they look like Keebler cookie guys & they saved Harrison Ford in

Witness? :shrugs:

[REP]

145. I Wondered The Same Thing Myself

I absolutely agree - individual Amish come in good, and indifferent just like any other group of humans but the system itself has some fundamental flaws. The tolerance (and even acceptance as unavoidable) of sexual abuse and domestic abuse in a society where no one has an education beyond the 8th grade does not sound ideal or "Christ-like" to me.

The man being interviewed on CNN who said the shooter was forgiven is a Mennonite; he may not even speak for the communkty but may be saying what is expected; even non-Amish victims of crime often say they forgive the person who killed their loved one. Perhaps the elders of the Amish community asked him to convey that they have forgiven the killer and maybe they mean it; nonetheless, it does not mean that their society or system is perfect, even though there are undoubtedly many, many kind and loving people within it.

[LostinVA]

165. Thank you very much for your post

I believe you've said it better than I have throughout this thread. That, by calling their way of life Christ-like, ideal, etc., we are doing a disservice to those among them who are most vulnerable.

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

164. My, what a judgmental, totally erroneous post that I didn't deserve

I am not anti-religion at all. I am a religious person. I also respect the tenets of Christianity very much, as I have said both here and on other threads. I also never make ad hoc against attacks against religions on this website. And, more than once, have berated those who condemn Christianity just because. All the people I love are Christian. But, you would know that if you've actually read any of my +15k posts on DU.

Is there a reason why your or anyone else who posts feel the DU world needs to hear your judgments on any particular group or people or persons? According to your logic, everyone one here should just STFU about their opinions. Don't read the damn thread if it bothers you. But then, you wouldn't get to show how judgmental you yourself can be, eh?

Yes, I do have a discerning eye. And, if you actually read DU and my other posts, you would know I do denounce lots of corrupt domestic and international systems -- particularly those victimizing women and children. Especially patriarchal, religious strict, self-governing systems like the ones most Amish women and children live in. But gosh, you're discussing that isn't as much fun as showing me how darned clever you are by attacking me, eh? Nope. Not as much fun at all. Good for you -- spicing up your life! Glad to see you're so all knowing and smart that you a
Oh,a nd why did I post this? Because way too many DUers who don't know much about the Amish belief and governing system were making them into saints that practice "true" and "pure" Christianity. Nope. Their beliefs are just as restrictive as ANY Patriarchal Fundamentalist religion. But hey, if you actually READ THE DAMNED THREAD, you would know that. Good for you, for just reading the OP,ignoring debate and discussion and discourse, and posting a nasty, personal attack. Darn, you're good! Feel better now?

And hey -- thanks for the compliment: I do have a hell of a discerning eye, don't I??? Good for you for being so darned smart to see that. Thanks, man!

[Avalux]

161. I've never had one of them try to convert me, or save my soul.

They keep to themselves and live what they believe; are non-violent. I respect their culture a great deal.

[bridgit]

186. agreed...

:hi:

[wicket]

166. How horrific

I just read that bit about Mary, terrible, terrible stuff. The perps need to go away for a long long time. :grr:

[BoneDaddy]

170. True

I certainly offer them comfort in this time, but they are not saints and there does seem to be a certain amout of romantic way people describe them. As a culture, I can appreciate but they are often "old school" christians with many of the same rigidity and inflexibility as the fundamentalist camp.

[Bridget Burke]

171. How kind of you to make a new thread....

That amplifies opinions already available at DU.

I realize that the Amish are not perfect. But do you have sources for all your information? What did they ever do to you, personally?

[LostinVA]

264. Very odd post/reply from you

But -- yeah, they are lots of links, as I've said about 20 times on this thread. I posted a link to a thread full of them. Other people have posted them. People one here who lived among them have posted. Maybe you should actually READ THE THREAD before you jump the gun.

What have they ever done personally to me? Nothing. Neither have Jeffs and the FLDS. Nor hardline Muslims who make their women into chattel. Nor the man who rapes his daughter weekly for ten years. Or Scott Peterson. Or anyone -- what kind of weird strawman is this??? So, because a system or group hasn't harmed me personally I have no right to decry their abusive patriarchal system? Or how they shield criminals in their midst? Boy. Lots of enlightenment on this thread from DUers who I thought believed In the protection of women and children. Bizarro.

I've read your posts for years -- you are always pro-women and children.

And, no need for the "How kind." WTF kind of comment is that? Don't read the thread if don't want to, but also don't try to stifle my voice here through misplaced sarcasm.

Again, this really,m really surprises me. It's very disappointing.

[GeorgeGist]

172. A that religion cannot bring peace...

to it's followers without force, is not peaceful.

[semillama]

175. I don't know about christians

but I will hold them up as damn good birdwatchers.

I'll never forget the first time I encountered Amish birders - all had top of the line spotting scopes and binoculars. I was out with a group to look at an out-of-range Varied Thrush, and they rolled up in a black van, about a dozen men and boys in rubber galoshes and wool clothing. If you go to the Magee Marsh boardwalk up near Maumee, Ohio, in May, you generally will groups of Amish amongst the other throngs of birdwatchers.

[LostinVA]

265. Ha! That's for the story -- interesting

[Igel]

178. Christianity is a sucky system for government.

Period.

Amish forgive and love those that hurt and abuse them because Jesus said it's a requirement, and they actually believe Jesus; they may not always succeed, but they consider it an obligation to try, and usually to try hard. If you find somebody who doesn't forgive those that hurt and abuse them and others, who speaks ill of their enemies, and who sits in judgment of others, issuing dehumanizing condemnations, you're not looking at somebody doing a very good job of following Christ. If the person doesn't accept forgiveness as an obligation, s/he has a very different Jesus from what the Amish have.

Christianity allows for no judgement or punishment; that's up to God and Jesus. You tolerate sinners, call people to reform, and forgive them as often as they ask for it. It went seriously astray when it aspired to government; at that point it was making up the rules as it went along, and the rules turned out remarkably human. Big surprise.

Jesus fined nobody, he punished nobody. He condemned nobody, except when they claimed that God had requirements that God never had and then didn't live up to their made-up requirements. The only act of anger Jesus directed at people was at those making the Temple courtyard into a place of business: there he was defending God, and merely drove them out. It's not like he stalked them to their homes and beat them up.

[lastliberalintexas]

180. My, what short memories some have

For those who claim that the Amish do not try to cram their brand of religion down others' throats, I must ask- do you remember the 2004 election? The unusually high turnout among the Amish in order to vote for their "godly" George Bush?

So they may not personally try to impose their beliefs on you face to face, but they have no problem trying to do it via the federal government. Sounds peachy to me.

And there are waaay too many people on this thread willing to look the other way and ignore the claims of sexual and other physical abuse so long as it's only happening in their insular community. :wtf: So Koresh raping those young girls was also ok so long as it happened on their insualr compound? And it's ok for the LDS to force 10 year olds to marry 50 year old men so long as it's happening in the isolated areas of Nevada and Arizona in which they live? :crazy:


Geez loueez. I have as much sympathy for them as I do for anyone who loses a loved one. But the Amish are no different than the Southern Baptist- except that the Baptists by and large attend secular schools and at least have a shot at learning the real world.

[Selatius]

198. They really are weak on women's rights; they should be condemned for that

There can be no freedom if religion trumps reason.

[Giant Robot]

237. So they cannot vote because that is imposing their

beliefs on you? What?

They picked a candidate. They voted. That is their right. We do not like their choice. Hate it in fact. We cannot have a system where our votes are limited in any way. Of course that seems to exist now but that is another matter. I guess what I am saying is that statement is either silly, an expression of sincere frustration, or bordering on advocating for a Democratic fascist state. I am assuming it was just your frustration talking.

I am not saying that the Amish are saints, nor am I saying they are evil. But they have at least the right to participate in our democracy, such as it is.

[LostinVA]

262. That's not what the poster said

She said, many people on the thread were saying they don't shove their beliefs upon others... but by voting for Bush, they do/did. That you can force your beliefs onto others in ways other than proselytizing.

What you wrote addresses something the poster didn't say.

[donsu]

202. what you say is true - the women are oppressed, big time

nt

[AX10]

205. Different sects have different standards.

Some sects are militantly archaic and others are more progressive.

[LostinVA]

266. Right -- I tried to stress I meant Old Order Amish

Good point.

[Chomp]

207. I agree with the OP

and admire her/his posting this opinion at such a horrible time.


Disclaimer: I am an antitheist.

[jonnyblitz]

225. so do I. nt

[WindRavenX]

245. as do i

:hi:

[yurbud]

220. the non-materialistic angle is appealing and they don't wear polyester

[revkat]

230. they do wear polyester

Well actually they do wear polyester -- double knit to be exact. Those cape dresses and homemade pants -- polyester. It's easy to wash, dries quickly, no ironing needed and boy does it wear. The Amish are NOT "back-to-nature" or "whole grains" kinds of folks. They believe strongly in the value of community and let in what will help community and keep out what they think will disrupt it.

When we first moved to Lancaster my great moment of dissillusionment was the Amish family buying an enormous box of Doritos at Costco! They are just people. Good, bad, and sometimes ugly. Lots of good info above from other folks who have lived in close proximity to the Amish.

[progressivebydesign]

228. Why are most religions anti-woman?

And why do women continue supporting them? Boggles the mind.

It's great that the Amish practice forgiveness. That's the ideal of many religions.

The comments here that "no society is perfect" in relation to the sexual abuse of girls in the Amish communities (as documented in numerous places linked in this thread), is not dismissed by that comment. How is the treatment of sexual abuse crimes against girls in the Amish community much different than those we decry from Pakistan?

I'm sure there are many wonderful qualities about the Amish people and their ways. Unfortunately, as usual, women and girls are insignificant in that religion, and that's what the OP was talking about. I found the OP to be very well thought out. It gave kudos for the forgiveness of the group in light of the recent tragedy, but was expressing frustration that people were apparently bestowing excessive praise for a community that tolerates sexual abuse of girls.

I got it.

[LostinVA]

261. How is the treatment of sexual abuse crimes against girls in the Amish..."

... community much different than those we decry from Pakistan?"

Kisses and hugs! You totally understood my point!

[porphyrian]

268. Women were property in most cultures until very recently.

Religion has been used for thousands of years as a form of population control. It's a logical result, really, not that it's justifiable. Standing up to such a system from within usually means something horrible for the "uppity" woman who dares question "God's will," and most people just aren't that strong, stubborn and self-destructive.

[d_r]

242. peak oil

When the oil runs out, the Amish are going to be sitting pretty. We'll all be bumming buggy rides from the Amish.

[LostinVA]

260. Nope, most won't ride bicycles -- we'll still be kings and queens

[pnwmom]

252. You're right. Their SYSTEM institutionalizes abuse of children and

women. And our legal system more or less turns a blind eye to protecting the vulnerable among them. Below is just one example (from the much longer article) of what happened to one girl when she tried to report her brother's sexual abuse of her to STATE authorities (since the Amish authorities were doing virtually nothing.)

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

SNIP

Anna tried to run away. But when her parents figured out where she was and called the woman who was sheltering her, Anna was sent home. Fannie began locking Anna in her room. The family moved to Tionesta, Pa., where Fannie tried to get her daughter declared mentally ill. She took Anna to a doctor who found that Anna's eardrum had collapsed from blows to her head and seemed doubtful that the damage had been caused by buggy accidents as he'd been told. Fannie next tried a massage therapist, Barbara Burke. Noticing scars on Anna's legs, Burke called Children and Youth Services in Clarion County. On a later visit, Burke massaged Anna's father while CYS secretly interviewed Anna in the basement. The agency later visited Anna at her home. But it didn't take her into protective custody. (CYS declined to comment.)

When Fannie found out about the CYS visit, she and Anna went with 13 other kids to the home of John Yoder, an Amish dentist who lived an hour and a half away in the town of Punxsutawney. Yoder's living room had a recliner with a tin pan and some needles next to it. Anna watched as the other kids each had one or two bad teeth pulled. When it was her turn, Yoder shot some novocaine into her upper gum. She shook her head and told him that two of her lower teeth had cavities. He shot the lower gum, and asked Fannie which teeth should go. Anna's mother answered, "Take them all," and Yoder pulled—along the upper gum, along the lower gum, until every tooth was gone. "After he had pulled the last tooth," Anna remembered, "my mom looked at me and said, 'I guess you won't be talking anymore.' "

Anna bled for three days. Her family ignored her, except to periodically hand her a drink. She couldn't talk, but that didn't matter, because Anna had nothing left to say. At church, she looked away when other kids pointed at her mouth. Fannie Slabaugh told me that Anna had asked for her teeth to be pulled. But the detective who investigated the case, Trooper Michael Pisarchic, said that the other kids who went with Anna to see Yoder said that Anna was being punished. Meanwhile, CYS was continuing to investigate. A court date was set for the spring of 2002. The bishop in Anna's district, Moses Shettler, called Barbara Burke and asked her to testify that Anna had mental problems. Burke refused. On the Friday before Anna was scheduled to appear in court, soon after her teeth had been pulled, Shettler and a group of elders visited Anna's parents. Anna said her parents threatened two days later to take her out to the woodpile, or worse, unless she told her lawyer that she took back her accusations against her brothers. Stripped of faith in the state to protect her, Anna did as she was told.

Neither Anna's parents nor John Yoder were ever charged with abuse. The judge in Anna's case allowed the younger brother to remain under Amish supervision as long as he had no contact with Anna. But Anna said he returned home on the day of the hearing. "They don't believe it's any of our business," said Roberts, Anna's Ohio social worker, of the Amish attitude toward child abuse investigations. But it's the job of social workers, police, and prosecutors to make child abuse their business. The state's duty to push past the barriers thrown up by parents and the community can't hinge on the religion they practice. Its role becomes more essential, not less, when adults wall off children from the outside world.

SNIP

[deathdog]

280. Wow. One whole case

Just enough to condemn a whole faith community for. And it was the non-Amish judge who allowed the brother to return home to continue his abuse. Maybe non-Amish people shouldn't be judges. You know how they are.

[JuniperLea]

259. We need to focus on all those naked natives

We need to put clothes on them and force them to worship our God and eat the kind of food we eat so they aren't so freakish.

Send out the missionaries!

For a bunch of alleged progressives, we sure aren't.

[Bucky]

275. Maybe you're not aware of the role the Amish played in saving the life of

Harrison Ford :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

283. God Bless Them. Overall They Are Quite Good, Decent And Beautiful People.

May nothing but good things come for them.

[greccogirl]

284. Condoned?

Should the Federal Government tell them not to practice their religion? I'm not sure what your point is.

[madmusic]

285. There may be a lot of good argument here against the Amish.

But I'm not going to read them.

Call it selfish if you want, but I prefer the images of nobel forgiveness in quiet dignity. It won't hurt the world to allow them that.

Not that the world would care what I think anyway.