Why is this canard still used: "No socialist country has been successful."

[redqueen]

How is this tired crap still peddled by those lamebrains?

The only reason I can think of is it hasn't been soundly debunked. Doesn't seem too hard... so why does it persist?

[Cooley Hurd]

1. ...and no dictatorship has persisted!

Ultimately, those drunk with power fuck up...

[Chemical Bill]

17. You mean like *?

I would love to watch our current dictatorship fall, but I am not thinking it will be painless.

Bill

[Cooley Hurd]

21. ANY dictatorship...

Usually, they fall due to their own evility (okay I made that word up, but it sure does sum up the Bush admin, doesn't it? ;))

[rockymountaindem]

2. It depends on how you define socialist

One could argue that true Marxism has never been attempted anywhere. If you mean to say the USSR, the communist bloc and Yugoslavia, then yes, it has failed. China may or may not still be a socialist country based on your definition. Cuba and Vietnam are still around, but Cuba is attracting investment from all over the capitalist world these days. However, it is still structured as a socialist country internally.

OTOH, you have the Scandanavian states, as well as some other European countries to some extent. They seem to be rather content.

[Greyhound]

3. It has been debunked time and again for years.

It is just Goebbels "BIG LIE" strategy. As effective today as ever was.

[redqueen]

5. Ah yes... too obvious.

Sad that so many people are still too lazy to bother to think.

[stopbush]

4. How about Sweden?

One of the highest standards of living on earth...and 85% atheist.

I 'm of Swedish heritage...maybe I should move there.

[Greyhound]

6. If I was, I'd already be posting about how sorry I feel for all of you

still stuck here.

[Ksec]

7. keep em coming..

Im taking note of this thread ..Ive often wondered about this..

[John Gauger]

8. My geography professor says that Norway has

a higher standard of living than the United States as a result of their socialist policies (and their oil & gas wealth.) Not to mention that they are not members of the EU and thus have none of the disadvantages - yet have been wily enough to secure all the benefits of membership. They do not have poverty and similar social problems as badly as we do. Of course, he is British and may not be able to see this country's innate greatness.

[patcox2]

10. Sweden and Norway are not "socialist." No country is, right now.

Thats why they say it.

The european social welfare countries do not have a pure, or even nearly pure, socialist economy.

Only american right-wingers would even call them "socialist."

So the answer is they say it cause its true.

[redqueen]

12. Well honestly... where is there any country that's "purely" anything?

We even have some socialist structures here... so that idea that there is or could ever be any system that's purely anything is just as much a canard, IMO.

[Hosnon]

23. Yep. No Democracy has ever existed, no Republic has ever existed,

no Communist State has ever existed, no Socialist State has ever existed, etc.

Every system that has existed and exists today is a blend of theoretical systems.

The words are labels for generalities...pure systems only exist as ideas.

[Swede]

15. That's 85% Lutheran.

Although Catholics are increasing in number.

[BelgianMadCow]

9. It must resonate with- commie fear or something, look at Europe/Belgium

we have had a "purple" government of red (socialist) and blue (liberal) parties for the last 6 years. First four of that were actually "rainbow" including green. Before, the coalition was for decades christian democratic + socialist. The socialist party is still close to absolute majority in the southern part, Wallonië.

Of course, one can always doubt that Belgium is "succesful" - but I'd say we are doing pretty good.
Our national debt is being payed down, yearly budget is balanced.
We have national healthcare which is very very good and a host of social measures designed to offer university to all, unemployment benefits etc.
We have strong unions, the socialist one being the predominant in the blue collar workforce and equal to the christian democratic overall.
We have the best education in the world.
We have good and safe communal transport (train & bus).
We have lost some manufacturing jobs in global corps restructuring and some in cost-driven industry such as textile.
We have brussels as capital of Europe (and Belgium) and the services sector is thriving.

So there :-)

PS : we DO pay hefty taxes, yes. And globalisation does not stop at our borders.

On edit : Recommended, because a nice socialist party minding the workers' and middle classes' rights would be an excellent third party in the US. I can dream, can't I?

[redqueen]

11. Thanks... I share that dream.

:)

[John Gauger]

13. You have good healthcare?

Maybe Britain and Canada should learn from you. As I follow the universal healthcare debate, it seems that we are only allowed to discuss the Canadian and British models, which are rife with problems. Maybe if they were more like the Belgian model we could win the debate. Of course that ignores the fact that discussion is limited to Britain and Canada because of their failures. Just because Britain and Canada have problems doesn't mean we need to have the same problems. As far as I can tell, we base our defense policies on the Soviet model and no one says we should eliminate national defense becuase of that.

[BelgianMadCow]

18. Yes we do. Basic healthcare which everyone has is as follows

- consultation of a doctor or a specialist : will cost you 20 euro up to 45 euro, but you will get it all back from national health insurance except a small amount (like 5 euro).
- medicine : very good payback as well. There seem to be exceptions in newer medicines as it takes a while for government to approve refund. There is also a policy of using generic medicine when available, the total medicine budget is followed closely and so is prescription behaviour of doctors
- hospital : a 70 euro / year payment per family (again, national) will get you additional coverage for hospital visits. A couple operations are excluded and you cannot choose to go all luxury though. Many people also have additional hospital insurance by the employer (I work for a big one for example who includes this as benefit for all employees including blue collar).

For this and government pension as well we pay about 15 % tax (total tax rate is closer to 50% though)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. I haven't heard any serious complaints about Canadian healthcare, and

what's happening in the UK (which has a different system) is that Tony Blair's government is finishing what Margaret Thatcher started by de-funding the NHS and doing things like closing hospitals so that people have to travel farther for emergency care.

In other words, it's the old right-wing trick of de-funding a program or institution so that quality drops and then using that drop in quality as an excuse to get rid of it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

24. It's beginning to change, unfortunately.

People like Ralph Klein starve the system, and others are attempting to follow more of an American model, which is decreasing its effectiveness.

I have a friend from Ontario whose father needed open heart surgery, and it was only because they knew somebody that he ended up on a list to get the surgery. Otherwise he probably would have died.

I've been trying to look at this closely since we've been considering moving back up and I have loads of health problems. I had to go to a Canadian ER while we were up in May for an endometrial condition, and we ended up going to the major trauma center for southern Alberta without knowing it. It was going to be 3 hours before they could even see me. Fortunately, the problem subsided while we were there.

[buddhamama]

14. the word socialism has become

synonymous with communism in this country, with lamebrains. It began in the early 20th century and became fixed during McCarthyism "The Red Scare" and all that. The word "successful" is subjective. If one were to refer to quality of life, the same statement could be made against Capitalism and the U.S.

[David__77]

16. Socialism has led to greater economic growth.

China towers above India, despite India having a distinct advantage in the late 1940's. Economic planning is indispensible.

[LostInAnomie]

19. It all depends on the definition. You could say the same of capitalist..

... countries. There has never been a fully capitalist country where every aspect of society is run by the free market. The US is arguably the closest there has ever been and we aren't even close. We have publicly funded roads, schools, post offices, broadcasting, parks, museums, etc. A capitalistic country would have none of these.

[irislake]

22. I think it's quite obvious why.

Same reason they keep saying private health care and insurance companies are best for America. And most Americans seem to believe it with a passion. Where will they ever hear different? Not from the corporate owned mainstream media. Life is much better in Canada. So far. And please no reminders that out PM is a Neo-Con. It's still a minority government and we still love our health care -- warts and all.No no he can't take that away from meeeeee.

[redqueen]

27. Heheh... welcome to DU!

Well, I'm saying that because of your low postcount... but if you're not new then ... hello! :hi:


My dream was to move to Canda... now I'm not sure... thinking of Ireland. So now I guess it depends on which is easiest to get into, really. ;)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. It depends on what you mean by "successful"

Several socialist countries have been very successful in eliminating abject poverty and destitution, spreading education and health care, and providing a "floor" for low-income people. The collapse of the Eastern bloc and the introduction of crony capitalism in China have been devastating for the lower-income people of those countries.

Capitalism can create millionaires as nothing else can. However, the more "pure" the capitalism is, the greater the gap between the rich and poor. In the libertarian paradises (complete freedom for business, almost no taxes or social services) of Central America, you have fabulously wealthy people who hire personal chefs straight from France lording it over people who are so poor that they literally have NO furniture in their houses. Note that as the Republicanites push the U.S. farther into the right-libertarian side of the spectrum, the gap between rich and poor is growing here, too, and the middle class is shrinking.

[redqueen]

26. See, that right there is a testament to how much better more socialist

systems are than their more capitalist counterparts.

Unless Greed is your main concern. And for the so-called "Christian" majority in this country... well you'd think a more socialist system would be a no-brainer!

Ah, fools...