The Amish are the truest example of the Chrisitianity of Jesus Christ

[wholetruth00]

than any other Christian denomination, cult, or sect can claim. Love and forgiveness expressed by the family members of the victims made me cry but gave me more hope for humanity than I have had in 50 years. May God bless them and continue to give them peace through this storm.

[Sequoia]

1. You bet.

I don't think I could forgive that man. I feel bad for his family though, especially his children and the hell they'll be going through. The Amish would welcome them and invite them to dinner, that's how they are. The Quakers are historicaly pretty good too (excluding Nixon of course.)

[LA lady]

2. To help:

IF anyone here wants to help, the Mennonites are doing what they can.

MDS and MCC offer support to Amish community in wake of shooting
October 3, 2006

Mennonite Disaster Service (MDS) and Mennonite Central Committee (MCC) express their deep sympathy and prayers for families affected by the Oct. 2 shooting at an Amish school in Nickel Mines.

Both organizations are in contact with Amish community leaders and are offering support through a joint response.

MCC and MDS are accepting financial contributions to assist the affected community. Contributions may be made by phone, by mail or online. (See information below.)

Contributions to the Amish School Recovery Fund will help the affected community with medical care, transportation, supportive care and other needs. more at link

http://www.mcc.org/news/news/2006/2006-10-03_support.html

[Ezlivin]

3. Be in the world, not of it

They take that to heart and don't spend their days trying to force their particular religious beliefs on others.

But take care when you are walking behind one of their buggies.

[bleedingheart]

4. that is a heavy mantle to lay upon their shoulders

while they preach and practice forgiveness, they are not exempted from the same problems that plague the rest of society.

Their practice of shunning would hardly be considered "christ-like"...and there are other issues...

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp


I do pray for their little ones that are still struggling to survive and for the children they lost in the unspeakable acts committed by a mad man.

[pooja]

10. I understand why they would do this.... If they didn't they would be

running around with cell phones attatched to their ears and building condos on their property. If you are going to live humbly, you have to shed secularism. To them that means living naturaly... If the world goes to hell in a hand basket. I will be the first one on my grandfather's friend's doorstep. At least they know how to live off the land without using it all up.

[LostinVA]

11. I remember reading this article when it came out n/t

[Warpy]

33. It all has to be understood in context

They reject worldly things, not worldly people. They just find worldly people often difficult to be around. It's a cultural thing. I find it painful to be around Bushbots, it's a whole different set of cultural assumptions.

What is more Christ like, shunning for offenses that would tear the community apart (like adultery, pedophilia, drunkenness, assault, theft, etc) or banning completely or jailing like we do pot smokers or physical punishments? Shunning is generally for a set period and gets the point across non violently. It's not a punishment they use lightly.

I find much to admire about them, but I also find much to deplore. It's an especially rough life for women. I've seen families with a 30is man, eight or nine children in stairsteps, and a woman who looks like his grandmother but who is really his wife. I also know that child and spousal abuse occur within the community and are not dealt with as crimes.

No culture or system is perfect. However, we can learn from all of them, even those we dilike. The Amish have a lot to teach us as the oil runs out.

[LostinVA]

36. I don't think allowing pedophiles to stay around after a two-week shunning

A good thing. According to many, many DSS professionals who work close to Amish communities, Incest and child abuse is epidemic in Amish communities.

I like you, Warpy, and aren't picking a fight -0- I swear.

[Warpy]

38. In such cases, the shunning can be for YEARS

meaning his kids have all grown up before he's allowed back into the house with his wife.

[bleedingheart]

42. read the link I posted... 4-6 weeks of shunning for pedophilia

"Now 72, Norman was diagnosed a few years ago with depression and the beginnings of dementia. A photograph of him at the time reveals thin features accented by a coarse white beard and dark, penetrating eyes. Norman has a history of pedophilia that dates to the 1970s, when he allegedly molested several of his eight daughters and at least one young woman outside his family. During that period, he confessed in church, repented, and was banished for four weeks.

Aware of her father's problem, Norman's youngest daughter "went to great lengths to make sure he wasn't alone" with kids, said his public defender, Diane Menashe. In 1995, the daughter and her husband, Tobie Yoder, let Norman move onto their property. Four years later, the Yoders discovered that Norman was molesting three of his granddaughters, ages 3, 5, and 8.
"....

"Moses Miller responded to Tobie Yoder's appeal by scolding Norman, who told him that in molesting his granddaughters, he was acting "no different than the cows in the field." Norman was shunned for six weeks. But he remained out of control, so volatile that adults in the area feared for their safety. Eventually Bishop Miller took the unusual step of allowing Yoder to take his father-in-law to a hospital. "

[LostinVA]

44. I found quite a few other citations listing the same thing

And, extreme shunnings for any reason usually max out at about six weeks or so.

[LostinVA]

43. Everything I've read has said shunnings last from 2-6 WEEKS

And, the male family members still live at home.

[bleedingheart]

39. my only point is that to laud them as christians above all others

is too heavy a mantle for any one group to bear...and it is hard to live up to...

They have a fair share of problems and not all Amish are the well off type that the tourists go to see in Lancaster...

Scattered throughout PA and OH are groups that are very poor and hurting...they won't seek help from the outside and as a result other problem are created. A friend of mine buys preserves from an Amish woman who lives near her brother and she told me that the poor woman is just worn out from working, bearing kids and trying to help her husband...they live in a community in Ohio that doesn't get as many tourists.....it is funny how they don't like the "English" but the ones who do well are those who will interact with the "English" ...as my coworker said...it is like going to Colonial Williamsburg and watching the actors perform...except in this case the attraction is watching people live a lifestyle that the average American would think nuts...

Forgiveness, love and simplicity are all great values...but there are many groups that preach it and live it too...

I just feel bad for those poor girls and their families because no one...whether Amish or not deserves to have their world turned upside down like that.

[malaise]

5. I watched one of the grandfathers

responding to one of the hacks re forgiveness and tears came to my eyes.

[kestrel91316]

31. I was pretty amazed to see that, too. Normally they are VERY

averse to being photographed or filmed, but at least one older man was willing to speak on-camera and yes, it was an expression of concern about the killer's family. Truly amazing.

Most of us would be ranting about vengeance and passing more laws and WHO LET THIS HAPPEN??? and oh, WE are suffering. HE was more concerned about OTHER people's suffering. We could all stand to take a lesson from this.

[malaise]

35. I noticed that he never faced the camera.

Really sad.

[ellenfl]

6. i noticed that, too. jesus would be proud, for a change. eom

[William Bloode]

7. Yes i just hear on T.V.

That they forgive the man who did this. Shows they are true believers, and practice what they preach. Many of us have a lot to learn from their example.

Reminds me of a guy i knew in prison. The father of his victim(killed his daughter)came and visited him every week, sent him money etc. I asked the father about it. He told me as a preacher he was required by god to forgive the guy and treat him with compassion. I always have kept that close to heart, as i don't know if i could be that strong. Now i have another example of extreme compassion to take to heart.

[LostinVA]

8. Well, maybe about forgiving this man

But, not in other ways. There are very intolerant and exclusionary, both very much against the teachings of Yehoshua. Other things, too, that are very much against the Gospels, but I'll let this rest. I just don't like the idea that they are the most Christlike of Christian sects.

I do feel very, very sorry for those who lost their family in this totally senseless tragedy, and good for them for being able to forgive.

[undeterred]

9. On this messageboard pacifists are considered freaks.

If you hate pacifism and think its ridiculous then it makes no sense to compliment the Amish.

My thread from yesterday:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2296716

[LostinVA]

12. I actually don't agree with you on this

There are a hair-raisingly large amount of war-mongers types on DU who post on certain threads... but I would say those of us who are pacifist and anti-DP are well-represented.

I'm going to read your linked thread now...

[undeterred]

17. Missed you yesterday.

I felt like I was proposing something totally bizarre.

[LostinVA]

19. Sorry --

I was actually working. Scary but true!

[Ravenseye]

49. Pacifism doesn't mean anti-gun

I think that's what people were for the most part saying. You can own a gun AND be a pacifist. There are plenty of areas in this country where it is necessary for your safety to own a gun, particularly in back woods areas. Not for protection against humans, but against bears, wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, rabid animals, you name it. I know a number of people who grew up in very rural areas and had rifles at a very early age, simply because it was too dangerous to wander away from the house without one.

I think it's disingenuous to link to those responses as evidence that pacifists are considered freaks. I consider myself a pacifist, yet agree with many of the statements made in that post.

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. Unfortunately, Bush was very popular among less-observant Amish

(Which is to say a majority of people in Amish areas) in 2004.

Don't ask me why -- Amish are expected to be pacifist and "libertarian" of sorts.

[LostinVA]

55. The gay, abortion, amoral angle

I think they should hav eto send their children to school, submit to the legal system, etc. like everyone else... at least for children under 18. However, it annoys me they refuse to do any of this, but quite a few sure jumped to participate in gov't so they could vote for GWB.

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. I don't think anyone should be FORCED to submit to the war machine.

I support public schools for those that DESIRE them. But in my neck of the woods, "liberal" Dems refuse to support integrated public schools for rich and poor. They are busy underfunding them and selling them off to local gyms, private schools, etc. on the grounds that "families with children" (read: black people) "no longer find it attractive to live in the city, and are better off in the" (segregated, underfunded) suburbs. Yet another reason not to support "nanny state Dems" i.e. DLC. People whose only interest is in forcing others to conform to their upper middle class mores. They do not care about war in Iraq or war on the poor. Unfortunately that upper-middle class "someone needs to pass a law banning this sort of behavior" mentality is the origin of the "Progressive" movement in the late 1800s, so I prefer the term "populist".

[LostinVA]

61. When did I say someone should be forced to submit to the war machine?

Children have a right to more than an 8th grade education. I didn't say they should have to go to public schools, but they should be allowed to be schooled to at least 10th grade.

[Catherine Vincent]

13. Have the Amish ever been integrated?

Does anyone know?

[kestrel91316]

34. They do not proselytize, nor do they seek converts. Since they

are a European sect, they are OF COURSE white (big shock there). Amishness tends to be very much something that "runs in the family". Sort of like Jewishness.

[Zomby Woof]

14. I wouldn't be so quick to laud the Amish

They are an insular, backwards, inbred lot, with the same pitfalls and foibles that the rest of us are capable of perpetuating. They are romanticized at our peril.

[LostinVA]

16. Agreed n/t

[Hell Hath No Fury]

20. Yes, they have a very ugly side...

including beating their children and rigid gender roles. I so loved the movie "Witness", but learned later that there were some very serious problems within the community.

[Iris]

28. Yep. See bleedingheart's post above.

[Eurobabe]

30. My friends left Lancaster because of the Amish

they treat their animals HORRIBLY, and some of them are kind of rough people. And personally I think that anyone who is so brainwashed by religion that they don't use part of their rationals minds -- well we've got enough of that in the White House.

JMHO

[knitter4democracy]

37. Yup. Talk to any former Amish, and you'll understand why.

Yes, many are truly Christ-like and wonderfully loving, but there is a darker side there. I had a prof in college who left his family's order because he wanted to go to high school and college, which is forbidden. He was still hurt by some of his family's behavior all those decades later.

[GreenPartyVoter]

46. Very true

[HardRocker05]

15. the sex role fixation is a little messed up - what about the quakers? i th

think that they were ahead of their times on abolition and women's equality, and they're pacifists. don't know what they're like today.

[LostinVA]

18. Yup -- Quakers, Unitarians, etc.

Many sects way more Christ-like than the Amish... who I put at the other end of the scale, with the other Fundies.

I also think their children should be made to go to school past 8th grade. They have a right to be educated. They are American citizens.

[Leopolds Ghost]

53. A principle tenet of Anabaptism is opposition to the use of force

So I doubt that dogma would go over well.

[LostinVA]

56. Too bad for them

Children have an inherent right as a citizen to be educated. I am totally against the Supreme Court ruling that allows kids' education to be stopped at 8th grade.

And, I don't know what "dogma" you're talking about. I'm talking about rights and laws. There are plenty of other laws in this country guaranteeing that children's' rights aren't overridden by their parents' religious beliefs.

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. And many of us populist Dems are opposed to that sort of nanny-statism

Whose only objective is to comfort the mores of the secular, upper-middle class elite.

Big Government exists to ameliorate the effects of Big Business, pure and simple. To the extent you find Big Business desirable, you will find Big Government necessary. Beyond that, if you want them working in concert to violate peoples' liberties, you have fascism.

[LostinVA]

62. Having a right to education, etc. is DLC "Nanny Statism"

Oh boy.

Whatever.

That's beyond a strawman. That's a strawman village.

[populistdriven]

65. Kick for Quakers & Unitarians!!!

[ProgressiveEconomist]

21. Maybe saturation coverage of the Amish will touch RW fundie hearts too

How can they reconcile the "turn the other cheek" message of the New Testament with the death penalty, unprovoked invasions of other countries, and all the other hateful policies their leaders have gotten them to swallow? The way the Amish relatives of the dead girls already have visited the killer's family to express forgiveness may remind many millions of the very different interpretations of the Bible their parents and grandparents taught them.

See http://www.sojo.net for what some more politically progressive Christians are doing.

[Philosoraptor]

22. although they do seem odd sometimes, I agree

I have some in my family and they are truly the salt of the earth

[stepnw1f]

23. We All Can Learn from Them

Just as we can learn from each other.

[KittyWampus]

24. Perhaps You've Never Heard Of Rosicrucians. And The Amish Tolerate

child abuse and wife beating.

[kestrel91316]

45. The fact that some Amish may abuse children and beat

their wives does NOT mean that this is ok as a matter of religious principle. These people have very strict rules about violence. However, they also have the wish to keep their problems private, so if there is abuse or violence is it more secret and therefore harder to address and prevent.

And yes, they are "inbred" as you put it because they only marry other Amish and do not usually have outside converts, so their small gene pool has resulted in an increased incidence of certain genetic diseases such as dwarfism. It's absolutely SICK AND HATEFUL to condemn them for this tragic result of their situation. You are free to join the Amish and infuse them with some new "pure" blood, but I suspect you are WAAAYYYYY too judgemental to ever be admitted to their church, and you would wind up shunned as a danger to the community PDQ with your attitute.

You're using an awful broad brush there and it's MOST UNBECOMING.

[bleedingheart]

48. they are actually adopting "english" children

I wonder if it is not to infuse the gene pool with more variation...

it was brought up at this web site.


http://www.holycrosslivonia.org/amish/q_and_a_no2.htm

[kestrel91316]

50. Well, I imagine they are adopting "english" children because

it's the CHRISTIAN thing to do. The new genetic material is just an added benefit of which I suspect they ARE aware. They may not go to school past 8th grade, but as a general rule they read a LOT. They may have, as a group, received genetic counseling of a sort.

[bleedingheart]

51. actually I am sure they have been counseled about genetics

all children born in PA are given special genetic tests...half of the things they test for are noted to be issues with Pennsylvania Dutch or Amish.

[Hoping4Change]

25. When so many self-professed pious people resort to anger and

hate, their attitude is truly sriking. I too was profoundly touched by their act of forgiveness.

[maxsolomon]

26. ever been around any amish?

my sister lives among the community in SE indiana. although they have befriended one family, that family felt no qualms about taking my sister's balm recipe for their own & selling it through amish catalogues. without giving her a share of the profits or even discussing it.

they are as interested in money as any american.

and i don't believe that jesus' christianity (which is an oxymoron) would be as misogynist.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. Please don't judge the community by the acts of

one family.-

All 'groups' are simply clusters of individuals, made up of the best and worst of society- Their views on revenge (group-think) are admirable. Some of their other views, are not so admirable, or representative of what Christ advocates, and lived-

And yes, I've been around people of the Amish community.-

peace,
blu

[Bluerthanblue]

27. Their response to this sad tragedy is exactly what Christ

advocates.- And is the only response that would ultimately end violence in this world- I know a good bit about the Amish, that they see this incident in the light of forgiveness, and do not seek 'retribution' or scream about how "unfair" God is, speaks much good-
They know these girls are in a place where NO ONE will ever be able to harm them, that their life on this earth, while short and ending in such a frightening- foreign way, was a gift, and a treasure.
Killing people, hating people, and blaming others, will not change what happened, and would only glorify the harm done.- There is much this world could learn from that attitude- It is one that Gandhi, MLKjr., Jesus Christ, and many other divine leaders have pointed us towards-

There ARE, as has been stated on this thread, many places where the Amish, fall short of the example of Christ- and as individuals, the Amish have their share of individuals, who do very bad things, and who hurt themselves and others. I admire their tenacity- and covet their peace. But they are not, nor would they desire to be 'Idols'.


The Quakers have a LONG history of forgiveness, tolerance, and global love- So did the Shakers, but alas, their views regarding procreation, and the laws against orphans being raised in communal religious societies, spelled their demise.

[StellaBlue]

32. I guess you didn't see this

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2365919&page=1

And the point of this post is not that there is sexual abuse in the Amish community; of course there is, because there are people in the Amish community. The point is that it is endemic and almost impossible to deal with due to the closed nature of this cult.

[mongo]

40. Because subordination of women and seuxal abuse are so "christain"

"Impressed by their piety, courts have permitted the Amish to live outside the law. But in some places, the group's ethic of forgive and forget has produced a plague of incest—and let many perpetrators go unpunished."

http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp

"This is my story of Amish life.

The world looks upon the Amish as a good moral Christian community (which many of them are), but as you read this, you will learn the truth about the Swartzentruber Amish Community. There is rape, incest and even murder, which the local law enforcers ignore. "

http://www.amishabuse.com/

"A Community of Submission

Irene Garrett left the Amish community to marry an outsider and has written several books on Amish life. Sadly, Garrett says, Mary's plight is not an isolated case.

"Overall in an Amish community, women are very quiet, they're very submissive," Garrett said.

Amish women are not taught anything about sex, according to Garrett, which makes it even harder for a girl who's being abused to describe what's happening to her."

http://i.abcnews.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1


I could go on and on. Closed, sexually repressed societies run by groups of "Elders" are no paradise.

[K8-EEE]

41. True Faith = Freedom From Fear = Pacifism

I really truly had the same thought when I visited Amish country outside Buffalo NY on a trip last month -- you could FEEK the peace just walking around there. You could feel the freedom from fear. That is NOT the same as "nothing bad happens to us" but they DO NOT LIVE IN FEAR AND PARANOIA like the so-called Xtians who pontificate for the GOP. Truly they believe in their religion and it is very awesome and freeing.

Whereas the GOP branch of Xtians, they are CONSUMED by fear. Supposedly they believe they will live forever after death with God and everyone they've ever loved etc., yet they are the easiest people to scare with "they want to kil us, they want to kill us!"

The Amish are the most fearless of people, and not coincidentally, the least violent. THOSE TWO THINGS GO HAND IN HAND.

[Kazak]

47. Nothing but respect from me!

I wish more would follow their lead... :shrug:

[fooj]

54. People who truly live by their beliefs and principles...

It's humbling.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

57. They are also the largest group of puppymillers in this country

The dogs are kept in deplorable conditions. They are nothing but a cash crop to those people.

As someone who is involved in canine rescue, I have to contend with the results their cash crop - the sickly animals whose poor breeding causes heartache and huge vet bills for the people who were ignorant enough to buy from a pet store, the behavioral issues that these animals suffer from because they are not properly socialized because they are taken too early from the mother (they wind up in shelters and then in rescues)and the euthanization by shelters of millions of dogs each year due to the animal overpopulation in the country that their cash crop contributes to.


I feel sorry for the loss of these children, but please spare me the canonization of these monsters

http://www.hsus.org/pets/pets_related_news_and_events/raise_awareness_of_puppy_mills_lancaster.html

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/Bouvier/Bouv_Pages/article-nypost-pa-puppymills.htm

http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/murray112805.html

http://www.charityadvantage.com/njcapsa/TheAmishConnection.asp

[LostinVA]

64. THAT I didn't know -- ugh

[eShirl]

60. well, there are other sects that are also into love, peace and forgiveness

but they tend to be both small and modest

[otohara]

63. Yes Indeed

all the right-wing mega churches in this country couldn't muster up the guts to not want revenge first and foremost.

[GeorgeGist]

66. Forgiveness is certainly the right of the victim...

but before passing judgment on the Amish, I would need to know that the children who were murdered are able to forgive their killer.

[bicentennial_baby]

67. Nah, I'd say that would be the Quakers

Yep.