Why do men go postal?

[Philosoraptor]

Why do men burst into schools and restaurants and start shooting people to death at random?

It all started with Charles Whitman back in 1966. I'd never heard of such a thing till he went up into a tower on a Texas campus and started sniping off innocent bystanders. That's the first time I started to wonder, as a man, what makes men do this?

Sexual frustration? Maggots in the brain? Voices? What makes them 'snap' suddenly?

Usually there are few signs to indicate a man might do this, the crazy fucker yesterday in Amish country was described as a decent fellow who had a family and a job and lived a normal life, what the fuck happened to him?

I wish I knew.

[SoCalDem]

1. testosterone mixed with hopelessness and rage

add guns... the outcome is predictable :(

[BoneDaddy]

20. Gimme a break

Why do these things have to be so much about testosterone. A woman goes and offs her kids and you don't hear folks say it was "esterogen".

[Generic Other]

75. Actually, I suspect hormonal surges may be responsible

in women. I know I have felt them, and they are clearly tied to PMS. I don't know if testosterone levels fluctuate in men. Probably. They may not notice it as much. It may have some slight influence on behavior. Probably too subtle for most men to notice.

[BoneDaddy]

89. I can buy that

I do believe that hormones effect behavior. But men and women both have testosterone and estrogen. When I behave emotionally such as crying easily, I don't blame it on my estrogen that I have, too, in my body.

I don't think that testosterone was part of this man's snap. Mental illness is the more likely factor.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

165. Actually, postpartum psychosis is believed to be due to hormones

:shrug:

[ContraBass Black]

32. How is that different from hoplessness, rage, and guns

Without testosterone?

[LWolf]

212. I'm thinking about this.

Taking your question seriously, here are the thoughts that come to mind, random and rambling:

When it comes to shooting rampages, or single murders by gun, it's rarely a woman holding the gun. While women can feel hopelessness and rage, and women can and do kill, they don't seem to use guns with any frequency.

Perhaps the connection is guns and testosterone. When it comes to attacks on other human beings, guns seem to be a mostly male choice.

Being female, and having a family made up entirely of males, the only other female being my mother, I can tell you that testosterone makes a difference. Turn a group of boys out on one half of the ranch, and a group of girls out on the other. Of any age large enough to walk, run, and climb. Which group arms themselves with rocks and sticks, and proceeds to chase the livestock, throw rocks at them and every available target, use their sticks to swordfight, as pretend guns, machetes, etc.? Which group is hitting everything in sight, including each other, with the sticks? Here's a conversation I had with my grandson last summer; he is 6: "You can play while I'm doing my chores. You may not chase the animals, throw things, hit things, or climb on the fences." His response? "Well, there's nothing else to do; I'll just go inside." These days, we've solved that problem. When I do chores, so does he. He gets to make war on the weeds by pulling them and dumping them on the compost pile. His idea of pulling weeds involves alot of yanking, grunting, gasping, and cries of victory. If a stubborn weed needs him to vigorously attack the dirt around the roots, so much the better. He's "winning" by destroying the weeds. I've never seen this same innocent passion for physical domination with girls, and I've always attributed it to testosterone. Perhaps I need to rethink this. Are testosterone/estrogen levels higher in prepubescent boys and girls? If not, what accounts for the obvious gender differences? It's not all environment and culture; my boys were encouraged to be sensitive, empathetic, and non-aggressive from the moment of birth. All those years of conditioning managed to produce men who reserve physical fights for defense, but who still don't mind saying they'd choose a physical response to conflict before "talking about it" if I hadn't so conditioned them.

I was the ultimate tomboy. I didn't become a pacifist until adulthood, and was well known for being able to ride, play, climb and fight "like a boy." Still, I didn't find the joy in battle that my male friends did. I just enjoyed making sure that they all knew that I was not only smarter than them, but just as strong, just as brave, and that they couldn't "bully" me. Obviously, just as arrogant, perhaps more arrogant, as well, lol.

What role does testosterone really play in aggression, and what other factors are we not considering? :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

104. Uh-huh. As opposed to post-partum psychosis.

After all, one is an object of sympathy and the other is an object of derision.

.... and children are dead.

[SoCalDem]

106. probably the only difference is the method..

but the OP was referring to a man, so I didn't think estrogen was involved :evilgrin:

[and-justice-for-all]

2. Need to have more sex. ..

Dose not matter who you get a nut with, just get a nut.

[pauliedangerously]

128. You hit it on the head

Like your website, BTW.

[and-justice-for-all]

157. Thank you, Thank you very much....nt

[bobbolink]

161. Actually, hit NOTHING-- Struck OUT!

IT ISN'T ABOUT SEX---IT'S ABOUT VIOLENCE!

POWER AND CONTROL.

[bobbolink]

160. This is sooooo maddening! What does it take to get it across--

IT ISN"T ABOUT SEX, IT'S ABOUT VIOLENCE!!

Really, I thought educated people knew that by now.

:nuke:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

171. Oh please. That has got to be the most absurd theory ever.

There are millions of celibate men out there. How many are shooting up schools? Not many.

How about we just blame the fact that the shooter was a psychopath?

[and-justice-for-all]

182. I can agree with that too...

...but sex plays a vital role in our society, just think if we lived in a Theocractic society...One of the objectives of religious ddominst is sexual supression, abstinences only they yell. That only leads to trouble, sex is an outlet and a release...

[raccoon]

207. Then maybe prostitution should be legalized. Wonder how many

Dutchmen go postal and shoot up several people?

[Deja Q]

173. Easier said than done.

And if I had a nickel for every time I was told "All you need do is get a date", I'd be wealthier than Bill Gates.

[raccoon]

208. Sounds like the people who told you that think that if two people

have a date, that means they automatically have sex.

[LostinVA]

178. Sickening

[spoony]

201. That's just baffling reasoning n/t

[Philosoraptor]

3. i believe bush & the neocons are doing this on a massive scale

going postal in the middle east.

[Lilith Velkor]

86. good point

been sayin that for years.

[Skittles]

4. and they say women cannot handle their emotions

go figure

[bobbolink]

143. Kinda puts the lie to that, eh?

Amazing the stuff that gets wide reception.

I'd say it's just an "old wives tale", but.... :rofl:

[EST]

5. Contrary to popular opinion, men are far more delicate than

wowen.
Men like to beat their chests and yowl, but women are the ones who organize the bucket brigades, climb to the roofs and put out the bombed out fires.

[BoneDaddy]

23. Yeah ...ok

That's why so many women are firefighters. Some of the crap that comes out of people's mouths. Feminism gone rotten.

[EST]

40. Many times women are not highly represented in some

professions because the physical demands are simply beyond them.
As a young man, I would not have said and did not believe what I now know. A half century of reading and talking to people who have made it their business to unscrew the inscrutable and sort out people's psyches has convinced me they know what they are talking about.
Some of the things I've learned include the notion that men take offense easier than women do, that men get their feelings hurt more easily and are more likely to respond violently, with less provocation.

There are numerous other areas where women seem to be more stable than men, although I do not expect many men to accept those easily.

[bobbolink]

145. I guess that goes into the "sometimes the truth hurts" column

"Some of the things I've learned include the notion that men take offense easier than women do, that men get their feelings hurt more easily and are more likely to respond violently, with less provocation.

There are numerous other areas where women seem to be more stable than men, although I do not expect many men to accept those easily."

Deserves to be repeated.

Yanno, you could get attacked for these statements.

:hi:

[EST]

152. Yes, sigh, it has happened before.

All babies are beautiful. Just ask their mothers.
If that baby happens to be a pattern of thought that has been built up and mothered over a number of years, woe be unto the one who takes issue with it.

But, again, that's exactly what we are talking about, isn't it? The impetus this time happens to be a pattern that held ten year old girls responsible for all the trouble in this young man's life.

I suspect, based on what we've learned so far, that this fellow got ratted out by one of his victims and his permanent grudge became a monster, eating his brain.

Any twelve year old kid who was sexually abusing little girls was totally fubared in the brain, even then.

[bobbolink]

162. I guess this is really hopeless... Here we are, all these years later,

and look at all the people who STILL can't get it that this isn't about SEX--it's about VIOLENCE.

This is hopeless.

No wonder we can't make any headway with violence in this country.

"All they need is some good sex"

For GOD'S SAKE! What does it take??

:nuke:

[hughee99]

169. I don't know about taking less offense...

Men tend to "bust balls" in a way that I've never seen women do (in person anyway). One man makes fun of another for going bald, small penis, etc... the other man give back another insult or just leaves it with a simple F-You. Life goes on.

One woman says to another, "You look fat (in those jeans)" or something to that effect, and it doesn't turn out well.

Maybe the reason that men don't accept it, is because they don't tend to observe it in everyday life.

[Darth_Kitten]

55. ?????

Yeah, it's feminism's fault, right?

Always is. :eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

No, not at all

I am a feminist. I just think that a number of women who call themselves feminist become the negative masculine that they claim to be fighting against.

[TAPat]

188. You're a feminist?!

:rofl: Never met one like you before... Talk about negative masculine!

[Darth_Kitten]

196. Cool.

:D

[moobu2]

6. Charles Whitman had a brain tumor

who knows, but it must be some sort of chemical imbalance or brain damage that causes them not to be able to control violent impulses.

[Philosoraptor]

7. Him and thousands of other men.

There is a killer in each and every one of us, that's part of who we are, although we rarely admit it. Hence the werewolf legends.

[HughBeaumont]

18. That and his dad beat the shit out of the whole family quite often.

Abuse was all they knew. Many 30's-60's fathers were far-less-than-stellar parents; hell, both of my grandfathers, as kind as they were to me and my sister, hit their kids. Not that it's any better now, but at least now it's not as accepted, hidden and hush-hush like it was then.

[raccoon]

45. Thank you! Yes, there WAS a lot of child abuse in decades past,

in the "fabulous fifties" some look at through rose-colored glasses, and going back in the decades--and centuries-- before that.

And lots of incest, and, as you said, all this just wasn't talked about, it was just swept up under the rug.

[elehhhhna]

119. Simple answer: Mental illness. Perhaps our big fat expensive medical

system can do something about it.

Nah...nevermind

[CarbonDate]

8. PTSD, often times.

I don't know the story behind the men who killed school children. It seems to be a copycat thing, right now. Somebody did it, and others start thinking, "Say, that's a good idea...."

Something hits a trigger. Sometimes its war, sometimes its sexual abuse, sometimes it's something else entirely. I have no idea. I think it might be civilizaition, personally. We were meant to run wild and we're forced by society to comply with all these stupid rules. What's the point of living for 100 years if we're unhappy through them all? Can anybody who's ever gone postal contribute to the discussion?

[Crankie Avalon]

9. I'd even go so far as to ask why do WHITE men go postal...

...apart from the Atlanta child murderer, I can't think off the top of my head of a serial killer who wasn't a white guy. Spree killers like Whitman, Huberty, et al? White guys, too. Rush Limbaugh listeners? O'Reilly viewers? Angry white males who haven't reached the spree killer stage...yet.

[Philosoraptor]

10. the two black snipers from a couple years back

there are a few

[Crankie Avalon]

12. Oh, yeah...how could I have blanked on that? I still say the overwhelming

...majority are white guys, though.

Maybe white guys in America are conditioned to feel that the world should revolve around us and when that sense of entitlement gets trumped by reality--BOOM, something snaps in some.

[smirkymonkey]

164. I've noticed that too - all the real whackos are white.

Manson, Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy, Cheney, Bush....

I think you are on to something.

[BoneDaddy]

24. LOL

Yeah...it's the white guys. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[Philosoraptor]

25. put the gun down and relax man

[BoneDaddy]

28. You fired first, I am merely responding

And why continue with the rhetorical nonsense that started it? This is what I love about some of the comments on this board. A illogical and irrational statement about all men is made, when this is pointed out, the OP then tells you to "relax and put down the gun" further inflaming the nature of the comment. Good job.

[TAPat]

189. Nothing wrong with us. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

94. Not just white men.

More white men in the US than of any other race/ethnicity, but that's more to do with demographics than anything else. Statistically, about 12-15% of serial murderers are black--which oddly enough is also about the percentage of the US population that's black.

And there are many non-white serial killers in other countries, so it's a bit myopic and culturally blinkered of you to assume that ONLY white men commit this sort of crime.

[Crankie Avalon]

108. I never wrote they were the ONLY ones...

...but I take the rest of your points.

[rinsd]

97. Colin Ferguson?

Here's an article on mass murderers

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/37138/

[Crankie Avalon]

109. Thanks, I needed to read that. eom

[sendero]

11. For every desirable biological trait..

... there are folks whos genetic makeup in one area or another falls off the end of the bell curve.

Stated differently, the behaviors that are pathological are just extreme examples of behaviors that have been naturally selected for. There will always be biological "mistakes", that his part of how the whole thing works, it is impossible for the system of evolution to work without sometimes going too far with a trait.

That's my 2 cent theory anyway :)

[Kolesar]

13. Your friends always describe you as a "quiet, decent fellow"...

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

14. womentend to hurt themselves when emotionally unstable, men

strike out when emotionally unstable.

[smirkymonkey]

166. Wait, women hurt THEMSELVES when emotionally unstable men

STRIKE OUT at them? That's like "She went and got HERSELF pregnant." I guess this shit is pretty deeply ingrained.

[lukasahero]

206. Actually, I think this has some validity

If you read it in the right way.

I think what the poster is saying is that women are raised to internalize their anger so they do things like develop eating disorders. (Speaking as a woman who has (had) one so I am not saying it is psychosomatic or done deliberately. Trust me, smirkey, we are definitely on the same side here. :) )

I don't think she is saying women do this WHEN men strike out at them but rather women internalize WHEREAS men externalize. Men are raised to deal with their anger differently than women are: men are taught to strike out at the world, women are taught to "just keep smiling".

As much as I would like to say that's changing on both "sides", I'm not convinced it is. And yeah, "this shit is pretty deeply ingrained" but I think it's different shit than you were thinking. :)

[ecstatic]

15. To make news... To finally matter

I think a lot of those men felt invisible and powerless. What better way to FORCE people to notice them and remember their names? To FORCE people to feel the pain that they are supposedly suffering through?

Someone in an earlier post made reference to most of these killers being white men. One thing I've noticed is that a white man tends to kill himself before being captured by the police, whereas the DC snipers did not kill themselves. As far as the Atlanta murders, the actual killer(s) is still in dispute.

[NewJeffCT]

29. I think that is definitely part of it

And, our sexually repressed society as well. If these guys were out getting laid at least once in a while, we'd probably have a lot less of these crimes, as well as rape and the like.

And, yes I know rape is primarily about power, but I think the lack of sex feeds the need to overpower/rape.

[raccoon]

47. Why don't they buy inflatable dolls then? Or cruise the local

red-light district?

[NewJeffCT]

50. several reasons

1) You still have to either go into an "adult" store to buy an inflatable doll, or have it come in the mail. Meaning, somebody somewhere knows you are buying it.

2) Hookers are still against the law in most places here in the US - so, you risk getting caught by police.

3) It's not like the real thing.

[raccoon]

56. In #3, I suppose you are referring to the inflatable dolls.

True, hookers are against the law. (Whether they should be is a whole other thread.) But I think it's more the attitude many American men have about them.

[EST]

154. I never tried inflatable dolls-never got drunk enough, I suppose

I heard if you bite 'em on the butt, they fart and fly all around the room.

[bobbolink]

148. #1--IT"S ABOUT VIOLENCE, NOT ABOUT SEX!

:wtf:

[smirkymonkey]

167. "I'm embarrased to buy an inflatable doll, so I guess I'll have to

go rape and kill somebody..." makes sense :eyes:

[bobbolink]

147. oh, my. I thought we understood by this time that it ISN"T about sex

It's about violence.

sigh....

Really, I thought that was general knowledge by now.

[LostinVA]

177. "lack of sex feeds the need to overpower/rape"

Not true...

[wickerwoman]

202. That must be why there are so many Buddhist serial killers and rapists...

Seriously, I don't think it's lack of sex, I think it's frustration over lack of sex in a culture that tells men that their value comes from the number and kind of women that they are screwing.

If men in Western culture didn't measure success in terms of the number of women they've slept with and the size of their backsides, I think we'd have a lot less problems.

[William769]

16. Why do women put their kids in a car & drown them?

Or why do they put them in a bathtub & drown them? it's not just the males.

[lukasahero]

58. There is always a lot of discussion about these events when they happen

and yes, people try to make sense of it. It often has to do with mental illness, feelings of being overwhelmed and insufficient.

Now, I have a question for you: why do men questioned about patterns of behavior by other men seem to feel the need to point fingers at women rather than just considering and answering the question?

[Scout]

77. excellent question!

why do men questioned about patterns of behavior by other men seem to feel the need to point fingers at women rather than just considering and answering the question?

I'd like to see some answers...

[BoneDaddy]

99. When the questions posed

are inadequate in their assumptions, we men get annoyed at the absolutist, black and white thinking that is behind it, such as stupid, ignorant comments about testosterone.

[jayfish]

83. Because The Question Is Sexist.

Jay

[lukasahero]

85. And two wrongs = right? eom

[Lerkfish]

92. no, but another wrong can hopefully enlighten the first questioner

though it seldom works.

[William769]

96. An even better question is

Why try to deflect from my question. We can play this game all day.

[smirkymonkey]

168. Exactly!

It makes me think that they have a legitimate reason to feel guilty. It's like the only people who get offended by accusations of racism are racists. The rest of us can listen and, while we may see it differently, we can generally understand where the other person is coming from. We don't automatically go on the attack.

[mongo]

184. Because the posts are always phrased as an indictment

of half the human race -- and then joined in by a calophony of shrieking sisterhood to fuel the fire.

The threads serve more to reinforce the ingrained notion that SOME feminists have that all men are evil and will hurt them if given the chance.

[Philosoraptor]

111. hell, i don't know, start a thread about it

[LostinVA]

179. That is called a mental illness -- psychosis

[Lerkfish]

17. As a white male, I have to say....

I have no clue. :shrug:
I notice nothing different about myself that would seem to indicate a higher risk of violence. My white genitals do not whisper to me at night "kill women and children".
I'm a pacifist, though, so probably not a good indicator.

[Lerkfish]

19. Why do women kill their own children?

and usually white women, too.
Susan Smith, Andrea Yates, Danielle Blais, Rebecca Hopfer, etc.
In our are alone, there are usually 5-6 instances of women or young girls killing their own offspring.
But as a society, we tend not to remember those things nor asssign their guilt to an entire gender.

[lukasahero]

60. There is always a lot of discussion about these events when they happen

and yes, people try to make sense of it. It often has to do with mental illness, feelings of being overwhelmed and insufficient.

Now, I have a question for you: why do men questioned about patterns of behavior by other men seem to feel the need to point fingers at women rather than just considering and answering the question?

[Lerkfish]

88. see my post #17

:shrug: I DID consider and answered the question.

before I posted again.


I'm pointing fingers at broad brush generalizations. Is that so wrong?

[HardRocker05]

87. just guessing, but men probably kill more of their own kids than women do,

it's just so sensational when a mother does it because of how incomprehensible it is. Bottom line is, men kill a *whole* lot more people than women do, and there is never any serious investigation as to why, or what should be done about it. i'm not male-bashing because obviously the vast majority of men are not murderers, but think how much the world could benefit if men reduced their level of violence, but it seems that they are never willing to look in the mirror and admit that there is a problem.

[Lerkfish]

93. what, exactly, is your solution?

[BoneDaddy]

21. Don't turn this into a gender issue

The guy was nuts. Andrea Yates kills all of her kids and we don't say "Why do these women kill their children"...must be estrogen...such crap and flame bait.

[Philosoraptor]

22. relax, i'm not a man hater

[BoneDaddy]

26. Then don't write

things that are all or none and devisive. In this culture war against the neo-cons we need all the help we can get and there are a ton of white men in this audience who really tire of some of the White male crushing that goes on in here.

[Junkdrawer]

27. When was the last time a woman took a gun, held a group of children...

hostage, and then killed the children and herself?

BTW: I am a White Male.

[William769]

30. They don't need a gun

Guns are so overrated. Just watch the news.

[Junkdrawer]

31. Yeah, they seem to need LOTS of guns n/t

[William769]

33. So a gun is the only way to kill a person?

:eyes:

[Junkdrawer]

34. If you want to hold a group of kids hostage and hold off the police...

A bunch of guns seems to be indicated. :shrug:

[raccoon]

48. If he hadn't had a gun, it would've been a hell of a lot more

difficult to do what he did. And the victims would've had more of a chance.

[BoneDaddy]

35. No

She just puts a baby in a dumpster, drowns them or kills them a different way. I am not disputing that more men do this, I am disputing the absolute statement that is a reflection of ALL men. That is what I have a problem with.

[johnnie]

42. When was the last time a man took his 5 children

And drowned them in their bathtub?

[Junkdrawer]

46. Several stories in the news of men shooting their families...

Men seem to like guns as their murder weapon of choice. And that tends to explain why men kill their own children and the children of strangers, while women seem to keep it in the family.

[johnnie]

54. There are several stories that go both ways

People are people. Why must so many people refuse to believe that under our skin, we are all human?

[HardRocker05]

91. Correct; men killing their entire families is not unusual; for christ's sa

sake, if any man or woman on this board is going to pretend that murder (commission) rates are even remotely comparable for men and women, that person needs to check themselves in to the loony bin, post haste. I am not saying this to man bash, because every person is an individual, and should be judged as such, but it seems that society has refused to address this issue for centuries; it's almost as if they dared to look into it it would be some insult to the essential character of 'manhood.' if manhood = murder, that would certainly be messed up, but the fact is that men celebrate violence and domination in a million small ways; they present it as evidence of their 'manhood,' i.e. superiority to weak womanhood.

[rman]

38. I'm a white male and i see no "white male crushing" in the OP,

nor do many others, judging by the replies to the OP.

[BoneDaddy]

49. You are not really looking then

if someone makes an all or none statement about men it needs to be called out as irrational as much as if someone made a statement about any group that was absolute.

[Darth_Kitten]

61. White male crushing?

:eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

70. Yes

A good number of women and self-hating men on these boardswho feel the need to attack men, instead of working on healing the rift between the genders. All they do is isolate the good men on these boards and make our effort at creating peace and accountability more difficult.

[Philosoraptor]

112. I'm not a man hater, just a man

[BoneDaddy]

115. Then let us not fall into the trap

of Men=bad, women=good, self hating bs that I see from men. Men are wonderful creatures as are women. I see more hateful posts about men on this message board that it makes me sick to think that this is the camp in which I belong.

[TAPat]

191. If it makes you so sick then maybe you don't belong. nt

[Name removed]

220. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

72. One of my favorite Lewis Black quotes:

"If you're a white male and you don't know that you're on the top of the food chain, then you need psychological help...immediately"

:rofl:

[Karenina]

82. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

JUNKDRAWER!!! MY KEYBOARD!!!! :spank:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[BoneDaddy]

101. Lewis Black Rocks

And that statement is true, however, it doesn't exuse angry, bitter, women who want to lash out at ALL men. Some people need to grow up a bit.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. What Makes A Woman Kill Her Husband By Pouring Boiling Oil On Him?

Or heartlessly murdering her children?

Fact is, men and women both can do some quite evil things. It just comes down to the fact that some human beings are really sick fucks. But thankfully, they are a small fraction of the population.

[TAPat]

73. But the majority of "sick fucks" happen to be

men. This while a slight majority of *humans* in this country are women.




The gender distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide
For the years 1976-2004 combined -

Among all homicide victims, females are particularly at risk for intimate killings and sex-related homicides.

Homicide Type by Gender, 1976-2004

Victims Offenders
Male Female Male Female
All homicides 76.5% 23.5% 88.7% 11.3%


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm#osex

Please see the site - I would have posted more, but the formatting is fixed and doesn't translate well.

[Tansy_Gold]

81. This subject came up in another thread and was

treated the same way. Statistics don't matter to some people. Never mind that questions are simply be raised as to why ANY man, not all men or most men but ANY individual man would do this. As soon as someone starts asking questions like this, someone else has to scream "man-bashing" -- or in this case, "man-crushing."

Never mind that the statistics show that men do more of the killing in this country and yes, they even kill more of the children than women do. THERE REALLY ARE REASONS FOR THIS, and not all of them have to do with how men handle emotions different from the way women do, and that's even assuming "men" do handle emotions differently from the way "women" do.

I think it's perfectly fair to ask "Why do some men, more often than some women, go out and blow away a bunch of strangers?" Just as it's perfectly fair to ask, "Why do some women drown their children in bathtubs or toss them into dumpsters?"

In most individual cases, there's actually an answer, of sorts, whether it's a brain tumor, rage against being unfairly fired from a job, desperate need to keep a new lover, or whatever. But we don't get answers if we don't ask questions.

Believe it or not, there are whole books written on this subject and similar ones. The researchers who have written these books examine the gender factors, the socio-economic factors, the accessibility factors, and a whole lot more. Murder is far more complex a social phenomenon than "He's a fucking wacko."




Tansy Gold

[mongo]

186. If there are individual answers to individual cases

then why do we ask the question? Your post seems to indicate you already had your mind made up as to why -- like most of the threads and posts on this subject.

[Tansy_Gold]

199. Because the individual reasons may reveal patterns

For instance, if we examine why Murderer 44659 killed his parents and we find out that he was sexually abused by an older brother and that the parents knew but did nothing to stop it, we've established a "motive" for one murderer.

If we start seeing a lot of murderers who fit the same "profile," we can maybe take actions that will a.) prevent other victims of intra-family sexual abuse from becoming murderers and b.) prevent intra-family sexual abuse. In other words, treating both the symptom and the disease. What a concept!

But individual reasons alone don't lead to that kind of preventive action if we don't attempt to link them.

I'm not sure that's the response you wanted, but there you go.

And again, I want to reiterate that none of this analysis automatically excuses the perpetrators. But if we don't at least attempt to understand why people do the horrible things they do, then we can never begin to prevent other people from doing the same things. It's all an attempt to be proactive rather than just reactive. I thought that was the liberal way to do things.


Tansy Gold

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

113. name calling is verboten

[Blue Diadem]

122. and abusive n/t

[BoneDaddy]

132. When it

walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it is a duck.
I don't respond politely to posts that do not deserve it. When someone makes absolutist statements about anything be it religion, race, class or gender then it is ignorant and stupid and does not deserve an honest response.

If I said "all blacks are inherently lazy and shiftless" on this board, the responses would not be looking for peace and resolution. Instead, the entirity of the DU community would point out how stupid and ignorant the OP was.

Why then are negative stereotypes and characterizations about men are tolerated?

If we call ourselves liberals then we need to act like liberals. Fairness, equality, and consistency are hallmarks of what I, at least, aspire to. This kind of gutter trash will not be tolerated.

[Philosoraptor]

134. Never did I insult all men & you know it

you seem to take offense at my question to the point of obsessiveness. all I asked is why do men go on killing sprees? I don't ever see women go on killing sprees of total strangers, yet there are hundreds of such stories about men. I am not being unfair to men.

I don't see how you got that impression

[BoneDaddy]

140. Because

when I look back at the post, I realize I am reacting more to the person after you who said testosterone was the issue. Your post merely propelled the conversation to go in the worst direction and allow the male bashing to begin. I didn't know your gender and made the assumption that you were going to go off on the familiar and much utilized game in here of "all men suck". Hard to judge intention in here, my apologies if I took my frustration out on you, but if you take a good look at the topics over the past couple days, that question has been phrased by others who have other intentions.

[Philosoraptor]

142. "I started to wonder, as a man, "......... quote

[VelmaD]

135. I find it absolutely stunning...

that so many people are unable to see phrases that start with "why do men..." without inserting the word "ALL" in there.

Get over yourself. It isn't about YOU. The OP did not ask why YOU go postal. It asked why men go postal. You could have just as easily read that as "some" men or "more often men"...but NO...you chose to make it ALL men so you could make it all about you.

And I will look forward to you jumping in to defend women the next time someone starts laying the typical misogynistic bullshit around GD...but I won't hold my breath that's for damn sure.

[BoneDaddy]

139. Shame you can't see

how I am a feminist and how I defend women and how I work against patriarchy, otherwise you would be singing a different tune. I just think that some women on these boards have an ax to grind and have never healed any of the wounds that have initiated

If I said "why do women get so emotional and can't think rationally" you would take that as an idictment of all women, wouldn't you? The same thing applies to this case.

If the OP wrote "Why did that man do that?" I would consider that a legitimate question.

[VelmaD]

144. Well, when you throw around all the same old...

crap about angry, bitter, man-hating women...you should probably expect that people aren't going to see you as a feminist.

[Lerkfish]

156. try this: Why are black people lazy?

when you read that, do you assume they only mean the lazy black people, or all black people?

be honest.

[Hosnon]

180. "All" is the most appropriate assumption to make. When someones says

Republicans are stupid do you honestly think that reading "some" into that statement is just as reasonable as reading "all" into it?

Using the singular of a noun means one, using the plural means more than one and if you don't want someone to assume the "more" extends all the way to "all" then you must qualify it with "some".

[TAPat]

193. "This kind of gutter trash will not be tolerated."

At least we can agree on something.

[TAPat]

125. Just curious - did you look at the site I linked to? And

what about those statistics makes me "filled with hate" and/or "stupid", naturally or otherwise?

edidted to add: I have found that the folks who have found it necessary to call me (or anyone else) stupid have the tendancy to be a bit short on intellect themselves - just my observation.

[Tansy_Gold]

136. If not short on intellect, at least resistant to new

ideas that contradict their beliefs.

I would guess, TAPat, that you and I are pretty much on the same page, since we've cited the same DOJ stats on murder in the U.S. If I read these threads correctly, it seems that there are quite a few people who are unwilling to examine the stats, look for patterns, and then analyze those patterns on an unemotional basis. That's sad, IMHO, because I think there is so much to be learned from such analysis.

Several years ago I took a fascinating grad-level class on "Sociology of Murder." Many students in the class had their eyes opened and came away with a much better understanding of the social forces that influence how we as a society view killing, including how some of us find ways to justify killing under certain circumstances. When any given individual is able to justify killing under "certain circumstances," it's easier to understand (not justify or excuse, but just understand) how another individual is able to justify killing under other "certain circumstances."

I wish I had more of a background in psychology, but I don't and won't pretend that I do. But as I've said in more than one previous post, there is a great deal of literature out there and readily available that may help those who are interested to understand that it is much more than just individual cases of wacko psychopaths who murder.

I had always thought that it was a right-wing mindset that placed sole responsibility on the individual actor and a more liberal mindset that looked to social factors and responsibilities, but I guess not. My mistake??? :sarcasm:


Tansy Gold, who no one ever listens to anyway

[TAPat]

137. Thank you for your thoughts -

and, yes, I do believe we are on the same page Tansy. :)

[lukasahero]

146. I'm listening.

And extremely appreciative of your efforts.

[BoneDaddy]

102. Absolutely correct

thanks for making some sense in the stupidity that surrounds this post.

[Kolesar]

37. USPS hired Vietnam Vets &the men w/ PTSD struggled w/ the arbitrary rules

The bureaucracy at the postal service was too much for some of these men. They would make mistakes & get reprimanded or their pay docked. The poor men were so stressed and had no means of dealing with it.

We probably should not use the expression "go postal". It is making fun of people with broken lives.

(This was my brother's account of the violence at USPS. You should probably look into it yourselves if you want a complete account)

[JVS]

39. Sometimes it just seems like the thing to do

[johnnie]

41. Because no matter what we like to think...

We are still stupid animals who have yet to evolve to the point that many people would like to believe. Why do we still have wars, kill for gods, shoot someone for expensive shoes, kill our parents because we want a few bucks they have in the bank, kill our children because god tells us to or because the kids are a nuisance and stopping us from getting into a relationship, burn crosses in front of houses where people with different color skin live, cut off our husband's penis because he screwed another person, have a multi-billion dollar industry of child pornography? I could go on forever with why's.

It didn't all start with Charles Whitman, it goes back well before America was even called America. Check out Caligula, Gilles de Rais (Bluebeard), Countess Elizabeth Bathory, Prince Vlad (Dracula) and of course I could go on.

As for killers being mainly white, check out Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Wayne Williams, Mao Tse-tung and so on.

And as the whack-jobs being male, check out Brenda Ann Spencer who is one of the earliest school shooters, Mary Ann Cotton, Darlie Lynn Routier, Susan Smith, Karla Faye Tucker and Aileen Wuornos.

I can agree that it is mostly white males that flip out and kill like this, but I don't think it is because they are white and male. I think it is because humans have a long way to go before we even scratch the surface of being what many people think we are now.

Hey, I like being a human being, but I recognize the fact that we are far from perfect and we have a long way to go. My question is what do you think is the reason "men go postal"? Do you think it is solely because they are born male? Is it in our genes to kill more than women do? Do you blame a man who is mentally ill or do you have compassion for people with a mental illness?

It's easy to come on here and ask a question such as "why do men go postal?", but to actually think there is a quick and easy answer to something that has been around since the existence of humans is asking a bit much... no? These threads are obvious attempts to start a flame war on the battle of the sexes again, and it's cute, but it doesn't help us move forward. These types of threads only alienate people and help to push the equality movement back a few steps.

[Philosoraptor]

43. I am so ashamed

[johnnie]

51. Don't be

Like I said, we are far from being perfect.

[lukasahero]

63. "We are still stupid animals"

Actually, "stupid animals" do very few of the things you say. Animals kill to survive not for "a few of bucks" or "expensive shoes".

Maybe we should aspire to be animals.

[johnnie]

69. Point taken

You are correct on that, just bad choice of words on my part.

[The2ndWheel]

68. What point?

I agree with your idea, just wondering how we get to evolve to a point. That's equating progress and evolution, two different things.

[johnnie]

71. The point where people think we actually are

Not a definitive "point", just one that many people like to think we are at based on their own imagination. It is different for each person, but the majority of people like to think we have evolved further than we have.

[magellan]

44. I'd say because in our society, men are raised to right wrongs w/ violence

America is a particularly militant society. Boys are raised to fight back when physically attacked or insulted; if they don't they're "wimps". Gun ownership is part of the inculcation of that machismo strain. Throw in psychological imbalance and you have a recipe for disaster.

[EST]

52. Ok, now that you've exposed some angry white males, do you

know how to tell when the post office is hiring?

The flag is flying at half mast...

[raccoon]

53. Who described the man that way?

"was described as a decent fellow who had a family and a job and lived a normal life,"

Probably neighbors who didn't know him well, if at all.

[Philosoraptor]

59. friends and neighbors

but like you say, you never can tell.

[sufrommich]

57. "Men"

don't go postal,disturbed human beings do.

[michreject]

62. Women get in their licks

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect11.htm

Methods Motives
1. Poison (80%)
2. Shooting (20%)
3. Bludgeoning (16%)
4. Suffocation (16%)
5. Stabbing (11%)
6. Drowning (5%)

[TAPat]

127. I guess our sources differ quite radically - interesting...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/gender.htm#osex

[Darth_Kitten]

64. Why don't more women go postal?

I don't know why some members of the most privileged group on earth go postal.

They feel hopeless? I'm thinking it's because they feel ENTITLED but nobody told them that life sometimes sucks and you don't always get your way.

I feel that women are somehow responsible for this as well.....they will not say boo to their fathers, husbands, sons.

[Lilith Velkor]

84. That's the dark side of male privilege

You gotta remain violent in order to retain the right to remain violent.

Would you say boo to your father/brother/husband/son if you knew he could (and would) kick your ass for it?

[Darth_Kitten]

158. I personally think too many women make excuse after excuse.....

for guys who don't deserve it. No wonder some think they can do anything, he's Mr. Wonderful and will never be held accountable.

Already the excuses are out that the man who killed those Amish girls was a regular nice guy, but there had to be SIGNS. Something. He wasn't just a sweet regular joe who suddenly snapped. :(

And yes, I've said "boo" to many a man, and they haven't liked it. But, I've never regretted it, because I told them the truth. I know in some cases (abuse) that wouldn't be recommended, but I did stand my ground with more than a few guys.

:)

[Lilith Velkor]

187. So you think he did it because not enough women stood up to him?

That's pretty wack.

I just love how we women get to have more responsibility in exchange for less power. Go internalized sexism! :sarcasm:

[Darth_Kitten]

194. No, you are not getting my point.

And sorry, none of my opinions is "wack".

I'm hardly internalizing ANYTHING. My point is that women do have a lot to do with why some men feel superior or entitled because they will praise these guys to the skies and support them no matter what dufuses they may be.

Don't project onto me, thanks. :sarcasm:

[Lilith Velkor]

198. But what does that have to do with why some men go postal?

What would you have had "women" do to prevent that man from snapping?

[SmokingJacket]

65. I read an amazing evolutionary biology explanation for this.

Think of this from the point of view of genetic survival.

Successful men have no trouble passing along their genetic material. If they're good at their jobs, catch the big mammoth, and are good looking, women want to sleep with them and their genes get passed on. Other men, lower on the totem pole, are not so successful, and their genes would eventually die out...

Unless they also happen to be violent, and can *kill off* their rivals, or the children of their rivals, or can rape, intimidate, and otherwise dominate through fear and violence. (Men are much more likely to kill their step children than their genetic children. :( )

Being a strong, positive, alpha male is the best way to ensure your genes get passed on. But if you're not one of those guys, and your low status makes you angry and frustrated, violence will do it too.

It worked better in the caveman days than now, of course, with prisons and so on!

[Kolesar]

78. How do you test a theory in evolutionary biology?

Fruit flies?

[SmokingJacket]

95. That's why it's a theory, and not a hypothesis...

No, you can't test it.

But that doesn't mean it might not be true -- it just means that you can't use it to extrapolate further.

If you had a bunch of sentient fruitflies with social characteristics identical to humans, you *could* do it!

Evolution is a fact, and it's occuring before our eyes. Certain behaviors DO cause certain genes to survive. Why ARE people the way they are?

I'm not a scientist, just a writer, so I can't get too far into it with you. However... it's damned interesting.

[Kolesar]

100. Interesting like Carl Sagan's musings

He discusses evolutionary biology in The Dragons of Eden. I read it in the 1980s.

[BelgianMadCow]

66. Testosterone. Adrenaline. Nature. Society.

A speeding car in whose way I drove on the highway came in front of me and braked hard.
I braked equally hard, and let him drive away.

Mainly because my wife and child were with me, I guess.

Because I went so totally berserk that I was trembling and sweating for 20 minutes.

Civilisation is just a varnish. Our behaviour (the part that is determined by nature (vs nurture)) is conditioned by the living conditions of 1000's of years ago. The men were the defenders then. That may be why there are more men in such a list.

The modern egocentric materialistic society is not helping much either.

[mdmc]

67. because life is not fair

men go postal cause they are mad at bein born.

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. Here is a great book...

"Real Boys: Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood" by William Pollack.

I think the conflicting gender messages we give our boys contributes to this phenomena. There probably is no one easy answer, but instead a systemic mix of complex factors. Unraveling them will not be easy, but definitely worth the effort.

[InkAddict]

76. Lack of love and feeling loveable and acceptable

causes "evil" emotions to sway the mind. Constant stress causes those "free radicals" to eat away at the cells until they malfunction in some way, and often permanently. One can easily slip into a mindset of rage when one perceive themself as alienated from community and life-survival resources. The person's natural attitude of gratitude is damaged as perceptions of bullying accumulate. When one no longer perceives that their contributions are "acceptable" to the greater good of the larger community, and searching for that niche fails time after time, the hopelessness of being invisible in plain sight is a huge determinent of violence, and acting out just to obtain negative attention, any attention, that one needs to feel at the very least "acceptable" just because they're breathing and human. It's so important that each of us make a daily promise to ease suffering without shaming whenever we encounter it.

"We are threatened with suffering from three directions: from our own body, which is doomed to decay and dissolution and which cannot even do without pain and anxiety as warning signals; from the external world, which may rage against us with overwhelming and merciless forces of destruction; and finally from our relations to other men. The suffering which comes from this last source is perhaps more painful than any other.” - Sigmund Freud

“Heav'n has no rage, like love to hatred turn'd, Nor Hell a fury, like a woman scorn'd”
- William Congreve

Both genders are susceptible; the damage may just pour forth in different ways when comes that spiritual break with a/the Higher Power(s), God, community, authority -- different from the rest.

[Kolesar]

79. And how about "real, violent, constant stress"?

Your succinct summary was nicely written.

[Touchdown]

80. Their mothers circumcised them

Why are all the "males are evil" threads always started by the same 3 members?;)

[Philosoraptor]

114. I've never started a males are evil thread, and this ain't one

names, i want the three names of these male haters!

[Touchdown]

176. Against the rules. Can't do that.

I have to protect my sources.

Answer to your question... Women didn't fight in VN and was a minority in DS. PTSD/combat vet status can linked with a lot of shootings (not every one). I would surmise that war is a bigger cause to random violence than being male is. In a few years, we'll find out if this evens out after so many women come back from Bush's war as fucked up in the head as the men were in previous wars.

[Tesha]

90. People who decide they are powerless to act act out.

People who decide they are powerless to act in most socially-
acceptable ways still act; they act out, often violently, throwing
off all the constraints they've been living under.

Tesha

[Beelzebud]

98. I'll remember these posts the next time a mother kills her children.

[BoneDaddy]

105. No worries

I have come to terms with the fact that there are a number hateful, angry and out of control women on these boards who become the very men they claim to fight against.

[Philosoraptor]

117. angry women turn me on,

but you obviously have a problem with uppity women, who have been oppressed and murdered by men for millions of years.

[BoneDaddy]

121. Angry strong women turn me on too

Spiteful, immature, ignorant women do not

[VelmaD]

129. And of course you get to decide...

who is "angry and strong" and who is just "spiteful, immature and ignorant". :eyes: What. Ever.

[BoneDaddy]

133. LOL

How else am I to take the negative comments about men. I mean you don't need a PhD to see that.

[VelmaD]

110. Will you remember these posts...

every time a man kills his children and family as well? Just wondering.

[Philosoraptor]

116. remember away, the two issues are unrelated

my post is about men who go fucking nuts, not women

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Really?

So the reason men go postal is completely different that the reason women go postal?

[Philosoraptor]

124. yes, from what i've seen

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. Alright then.

What are those reasons?

[Zomby Woof]

107. As opposed to...?

Drowning their children in a bathtub because Jesus told them to, or driving them into a lake, and then blaming a black man for their deaths?

Of course, I am seeing the testosterone myth perpetuated with forceful ignorance. It's the LACK of it which causes aggression in males, not a surplus. Regardless of hormones, the entire species has lots of sickness to spare, and denigrating males in order to make a point about violence in the culture is an intellectual dead end.

[meisje]

118. PMS (Post Marriage Syndrome)

[Exiled in America]

120. This is such a simple question to answer, people:

This is the bi-product of a partriarchical legacy and society that is still in many ways a patriarchical society.

It is not suprising that we detect a pattern where it seems statistically that distrubed men seem to act out in different by consistent ways than distrubed women seem to make out. Men and women are reguarly treated differently by society, taught different lessons about what's expected of them by society, encouraged to behave differently in society, have different assumed roles in society, and on and on and on.

It's not surpising then, that the way we "treat" men (generally speaking) in society is going to lead to different consequences both on the positive and negative side, while the way we "treat" women in society is going to lead to different consequences on both the positive and negative side.

Add to that the critical ingredients of mental or emotional illness and/or historical abuse and you have a recipe for BOTH men and women to act in incredibly awful and heartbreaking ways - though it shouldn't suprise anyone that a man's response might generally look different than a woman's in this culture.

So what is the big deal / mystery here???

[VelmaD]

130. The big deal is that some men on this board...

and some men in the world at large just do not get that it isn't JUST about them. They don't want to look at the big picture. They don't want to examine how the patriarchy impacts both genders. They just want to thump their chest and proclaim "I'm one of the good guys" while essentially doing nothing to address the problem. They view it through the lens of MEMEMEME...I haven't beaten up a woman therefor asking why "men" do so is a direct attack on MEMEMEMEME.

[Lerkfish]

141. well, when the OP asks why men kill, it kinda opens the door for men

to respond.
since (I hope) most men here are NOT killers, we're likely to point that out.

The same would be if I started a thread saying why do women kill. That opens the door for women to respond.

the difficulty is, none of us know at this point why some people kill and some don't.
If its only testosterone, then there would be no women killers. There has to be other factors, most probably individual factors based on the life of that individual that chooses to kill.

I once attended a rape counseling class as an RA in the dorm, because I'd had friends raped, and guys on my floor had girlfriends that were. I wanted to know how best to counsel people in those situations. Instead, the entire class was premised on that all men were rapists and how society made all men rapists. Interesting from a sociological angle, but not much help in learning how to counsel people.

When you accuse all men of being killers, by definition, IT IS ABOUT MEN....

[VelmaD]

149. You made the same assumption...

that other posters have made...the OP did not say ALL men.

It is sad to me that y'all would rather go on and on about how it isn't ALL men...than talk about the actual point of the OP.

[Lerkfish]

153. I DID talk about the actual point.

I've said I don't know, and said I'm not sure any of us know why, and have suggested various factors that might affect why someone would kill.

Its sad to me that you're not picking up on that.

I can multitask: I can address the question AND I can respond to the form the question takes.

If the question is "why?", and I answer the way I have, how is that not talking about the actual point of the OP? Unless the OP is rhetorical and doesn't expect an answer?

If the intent is to ask "why do men kill" in order to understand why men kill, why isn't a direct answer to that question not addressing it?

and I would point out, when the OP say "why do men kill"? that implies all men, does it not? If there was a specific subgroup, it was not annotated properly.

To do so would have required this structure: "Why do men who kill kill?" Then its not all men, but the way it is structured ABSOLUTELY means all men, and if you can't see that, I suggest you reread the OP.

[smirkymonkey]

170. That's what's driving me crazy about this thread - a majority of

those crying "man bashing" are making it all about them. I generally don't take things personally that don't apply to me.

Why don't we start a discussion on how Americans are so persecuted by the rest of the world?

[Lerkfish]

223. "why do men kill" is NOT about men?

:shrug:

[lukasahero]

151. Valid observation however to answer "So what is the big deal/mystery here"

I would say that the big deal is, according to your post, we raise men in such a way that the way they react to things often leads to putting women in danger. I guess the question we should be asking is do we care enough about the women in our lives to try and change things? Edited to add: and if so, how?

[Exiled in America]

175. I agree *that* is a big deal. What I meant was...

..that the answer to the initial question isn't really a big mystery. The much greater challenge is to be honest about the problem then figure out what can possibly be done at this point to counter/correct such a deeply conditioned and long-standing pattern in our culture and in much of historical culture.

Now that's a big deal. :(

[lukasahero]

209. Good point but

how do we resolve the problem if we don't investigate and identify the cause by asking the (hard) questions? I think we do a disservice to the greater challenge if we think we already know the answer to the question posed - it's more complicated than that.

Tansy up thread makes an excellent point about identifying "patterns". I am also in agreement with her that the "why do women kill their children" is a perfectly valid question to be asked and analyzed. If we don't ask, we can't identify the root cause and if we don't understand the root cause, I don't see how we can ever make inroads into truly resolving the real problems.

[Swamp Rat]

131. Good Philosoraptor

I see you've touched a nerve here. :D



edit: I gave you the first and only rec. ;)

[TAPat]

138. Gee whiz, Swamp Rat! Rec here too...

finally! I've kicked enough already, I think... :)

[bobbolink]

150. Aren't we ever so shocked at that....

Given how long it took for the "c" word to be banned here...

[demwing]

155. Perhaps its caused by our socialization

that tells us we are supposed to rule, and become kings of our own domain.

And then the harsh truths set in, fuck us in our collective and individual asses, and leave without so much as a thank you.

Add to that the fact that there are many veterans out there with mental disorders that the government has abandoned. They walk the streets, tossed aside like so much human trash, after having given their very souls to the killing machinery of the military industry.

It's a blessing that this insanity isn't more prevalent.

[flvegan]

159. Some of it might well be "'roid rage"

Check out their diets, maybe, just maybe some of that growth hormone and steroid residue from the animals they eat passed through.

I'm just sayin'...

Flame suit...on.

[lukasahero]

210. No flames here

It's a valid factor in the equation from my point of view.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

163. In Charles Whitman's case, it was a brain tumor

as his autopsy revealed. (I'm old enough to remember the news stories.)

As far as the others are concerned, perhaps a warped sense of entitlement? A giant temper tantrum by a paranoid?

The husband of a former colleague was killed at the University of Iowa about 15 years ago by a graduate student who opened fire in the physics department offices because he felt that the department had treated him unfairly. It was shocking for us, because we'd all met the husband several times and thought of him as an amiable teddy bear of a man. :cry:

The perpetrator is often someone who feels that everyone has been picking on him, which may or may not be true. But normal people don't go spraying rooms with bullets just because they're upset.

Now that you mention it, there may have been women who "went postal," but I can't think of any.

(In Japan, where it's virtually impossible for a private individual to own a gun, people "go postal" with knives or razor blades, both of which are easier to disarm than guns, so the death toll is usually one or two people, if that.)

[smirkymonkey]

172. Maybe regardless of gender, it's simply immaturity and self-ab

sorption. It seems like most people - who aren't severly mentally ill - who snap, do so because they are furious that the world doesn't dance to their tune.

As far as testosterone goes, has anyone ever experienced PMS? It amazing me that more women DON'T kill, because I know a lot of us would like to at times.

[LostinVA]

181. I never knew that about Whitman!

[johnnie]

190. Just to mention

One of the first mass school shootings was a woman. Actually she was 16 years old. If you ever heard the song "I Don't like Mondays" by the Boomtown Rats, that is about her and what she told the authorities when they asked her why she did it.

Her name is Brenda Ann Spencer.

[wtmusic]

174. Powerlessness drives us nuts

in a nut-shell. Some of us can't deal with it.

[hotforteacher]

183. The answers are not simple.

Mass murderers and serial killers and women that kill their children are three different things with enough variables to make your head spin. But yeah, most of it comes down to gaining control or power over a situation.

Mass murderers have categories: digruntled workers, terrorists, and state/countries. The "reasons" are generally about power; too much, or a complete lack thereof...or the perception of which.

Serial killers run a gamot:

Ted Bundy--grew up amidst abusive, mentally ill behavior, and shame. Showed violent tendencies at a very young age.
John Wayne Gacy--abusive, alcoholic father, allegedly had some head trauma, and displayed pedophiliac tendencies.
David Berkowitz--adopted, displayed pyromania tendencies and committed larceny, served in the military.
Aileen Wuornos--abandoned by parents, allegedly physically and sexually abused by her grandparents.
Jeffery Dahmer--as my mother would say, J.F.N. (just fucking nuts).

And the list goes on.

Per women who kill their offspring, the reasons are just as varied, and it tends to make for more blistering headlines in the national newspapers because no one can comprehend a woman killing her own offspring. Yates was tremendously mentally ill, and her bible-thumping husband didn't hesitate to get her knocked up again and again.

It is my understanding that violent crimes amongst women is on the rise...or getting more noticible.

Getting laid wouldn't help any of these people, men or women.

One might call to question why the cases of mental illness to this degree is so dispropotionately high in the United States. For hundreds of years the stigma of mental illness superceded those of physical abnormalities (thank you, organized religion). Hell, this country was founded by people (the Puritans) who found the human body a disgusting relic that needed to be tamed and/or avoided. The mortal coil was not viewed as luscious and worthy of pleasure. Christians in the 1400-1800's found contempt in the female form and propogated myth about the origins of such evil, and devised not-so-secret methods in order to trample it into submission...meanwhile men also suffered in the aftermath of things like the Inquisition and having to go underground to find pleasures forbidden by the Church.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child." Let us wonder not.

[hiaasenrocks]

185. Because they're usually not as vocal about their feelings and

sooner or later, those pent up frustrations explode.

Women, on the other hand, will tell you exactly how they're feeling, every time, any time, all day, all night, etc. In other words, women get out their frustrations via vocal nagging and complaining.

Which is, in terms of this discussion, preferable to "going postal."

[bridgit]

192. but the guy in Amish country was a milk man, he didn't work for the...

u.s. post office :shrug:

[Rockstone]

195. A girl at PSU went postal when I was there

I think she killed one person. Luckly, a man jumped in the bush and her gun jammed. she tried to stab him but ended up stabbing herself in the leg.

[gully]

197. Because they're raised to be "tough" and solve their problems with

violence?

[leftofthedial]

200. women make us do it

mostly

[lukasahero]

211. Yeah, those 7 year old girls really pushed that guy over the edge, huh?

Come on. :eyes:

[leftofthedial]

215. It's not usually the victims

The victims are either surrogates or are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.


Hearing "men" being blamed for such violence just makes me want to go berserk!

[lukasahero]

217. Who do you think should be blamed for the act of violence this man

perpetrated? "Women"? (Oh yeah, you just said that.) Guess "men" can't control their behavior after all - it's really "women" who should control them - the ever popular "she shouldn't have made me angry" defense.

Here's an interesting choice of words to use on this thread: If "Hearing "men" being blamed for such violence just makes me want to go berserk!" doesn't that kind of support the idea that men might be more inclined to "go postal"?

[leftofthedial]

218. when were your sarcasm receptors removed?

was it the result of some sort of accident, or was it due to an illness?

I'll go literal.

Men do things for one of four reasons:

1. food (or money)
2. women
3. beer
4. mental illness

Often, in my experience as a man, 2 and 4 are interrelated.

Okay, now I'll *really* go literal.

These murderous rampage killers are motivated by a complex mix of factors, in many ways unique to each of them. They are mentally disturbed or frequently severely mentally ill. They live in a society that is more likely to shun mentally disturbed individuals than help them. They often perceive themselves as having been unjustly victimized by others. They often are victims themselves of horrific abuse. Males are hormonally and culturally predisposed to act. Culturally, through TV and movies, we are shown relentless images of heroic men who act out using lethal weapons. When mentally disturbed individuals feel unable to control their own lives, they sometimes respond by trying to exercise control over others, for example, king george. They live in a country that is awash in lethal weapons. They know that by committing a horrific act, they'll get the "last laugh" on their perceived tormentors. The religious and secular corporations that own this country have spent hundreds of billions of dollars on advertising. They've created for all of us an artificial corporate landscape and an ersatz amoral set of values that methodically weaken the natural connections between humans and the earth and among humans. This creates isolation, confusion, emotional detachment and moral ambiguity.

Personally, I've known more sociopathic women than men. Why don't they act out with armed rampage killing sprees? I dunno, but I suspect that the profile of the spree killer may change over the next decade or two to include more women.

I don't "blame" women. I also don't blame men. I blame the individuals and those who contributed either through action or negligence to turning these people into monsters.

[lukasahero]

219. Now we're getting somewhere

A question though: why don't you blame the culture/society that neglects them (or is that wht you are implying in your last sentence)? Isn't this the point that needs to be challenged and fixed if we are ever going to try and move from punishment to protection? Punishing the killers after the fact is, after all, rather useless.

And for the record, my sarcasm monitors are off when it comes to violence and particularly the brutal killing of 5 little kids. I'm just 'funny' that way.

[leftofthedial]

221. yup

society is culpable

All cultures have mental illness, but America breeds mass murderers like no other country in history.

[Lerkfish]

224. how about blaming that particular man?

gee, I dunno, maybe that would be a good thing to start with.

[lukasahero]

226. Yup, it's a good place to start

but it's not the end. It's after the fact and the children are dead. Maybe if we try to understand what led him to think that was the answer to his problem, we could possibly prevent more children from being dead.

[VOX]

203. Testosterone = the world's most dangerous substance.

And I am only being mildly facetious. Look over every hot spot on the globe, and you'll see angry young men dominating the picture.

Some thoughts on the subject:
Men are basically hard-wired to be territorial, controlling, and to conceal their emotions, lest it be perceived as a sign of weakness.

A man is much less likely to get counseling for emotional problems -- he'll usually state that he can "fix" whatever's wrong on his own.

Put a man on the brink -- by some combination of perceived humiliation, economics, ignorance, powerlessness, alienation, etc. -- and he's far more likely to lash out violently than a woman in the same circumstances.

Of course, there are women who've flipped and done horrific things, but they are the exception in these types of violent crimes -- usually, it's men who seek the dominance, power and/or vengeance by bloodletting.

Add to the mix a popular culture that constantly barrages men with messages that encourage violence as a solution to life's problems, and that compromise and negotiation should be perceived as weaknesses.

it's a recipe for tragedy.

[Lerkfish]

205. then the 90% of men who do NOT kill do not have testosterone?

and the women who DO kill do so because of testosterone?

as I've said other places, its not that simple as a hormone. There are a variety of causitive factors that differ for each killer.
We like to be able to point to a single cause, but that's too easy.

I am curious about this line of reasoning, however, that testosterone is the cause of violence, for what does it suggest as a solution?

[lukasahero]

213. It's not the cause and if one suggests it is, they suggest there is no

solution. I'm in agreement with you here that testosterone (alone) is not the cause. (I have to acknowledge though that the increased use of steriods is having a negative impact on the situation. Lots of reports coming out lately about athletes beating the crap out of their wives etc...)

The "hard-wired" crap is just an excuse to do nothing about the problem. There probably is a mix of nature vs. nurture at play but I refuse to believe the "men are just violent beasts who have no control over themselves and their sexuality" bullshit. I expect more from men than that.

I do think we should continue to ask the questions though to, as Tangy up thread suggests, see if we can identify patterns and fix the causes that contribute to the situation.

[Lerkfish]

214. well, "roid rage" is a condition, as I understand it, that comes from

abusing massive amounts of anabolic steroids. That's a little different from naturally occuring testosterone.

To me, this is such a complex issue, its too easy a pitfall to find causes when there's only correlations. For example, (hypothetically), if 100% of rapists have viewed pornography in their lives, that does not therefore mean viewing pornography makes you a rapist, since the percent of men who are rapists is 5% of the total population of men, and 90% of all men have viewed pornography. (making up stats here for the hypothetical example)

If most serial and mass killers are men, are they killers simply because they are men? If that were true, we'd have a whole lot more of them than we do (and any we have is too many).

[lukasahero]

216. Of course

Logically, all rapists view porn does not support all watchers of porn = rapists. However, even correlations can give us a starting point for issues to address.

Again, we're not talking about looking at one perpetrator and identifying the issues discovered there as a means to label an entire problem. We're (well, I'm) just looking to see if there are patterns so we can address underlying causes rather than just punish offending individuals after the fact. The idea is to protect rather than simply punish. Causation and correlation garnered from the answers to the questions asked can then be studied and, if found valid, acted upon - positively, not punatively.

(Just to be clear, I am also using a hypothetical to address your point. I'm not sure, and highly doubt, that all rapists watch porn. Again, rape is an act of power, not sex therefore it stands to reason that not all those who commit acts in an attempt to demostrate their power necessarily even equate it with sex never mind porn.)

[Lerkfish]

222. ok, but where does that all lead? even if you determine a set of factors

that appear to indicate what type of person MIGHT be a killer later in life, what do you do about it? Can you punish someone BEFORE they commit a crime?
I realize the intention is to prevent future bad acts, but this broaches a very dangerous idea: that future criminals should be reformed before they commit crimes.
If the factors are a bad home life, which seems likely, how do you go about correcting everyone's home situation?
We have social workers now, who are underresourced, so that system seems inadequate. Short of becoming BIG BROTHER, and controlling every aspect of a person's life, OR rounding up all men and incarcerating them before they can commit crimes....what is the course of action?

[lukasahero]

225. Not punishment

If social workers are under sourced, wouldn't it be a positive step toward getting them the money they need to help people if we can draw a correlation, make it personal? How about properly funding and advancing mental health support as a priority in this country? Seriously, I don't have all the answers because we don't have all the answers. But we can't change anything if we don't begin to try. Throwing up our hands isn't an answer we can afford to live with.

And please, let's not go down the route that I'm suggesting thought police. I'm suggesting support and assistance be given to people who need it. That people who are at risk be helped. Maybe we can even try to change the things we teach our boys, if indeed that is part of the problem - that they don't have to be tough, that it IS ok to ask for help, to cry, to hurt. There is plenty we can do to prevent crime by supporting and helping those who may be more in jeopardy of committing it - not punishing them.

[Red Right and BLUE]

204. Repression/suppression.

That's my guess. Men are under such deep pressure to be a certain way. Manly friends do not "touch" eachother as women friends are allowed to. They aren't allowed to cry unless someone has died. They have to appear like stone in the midst of crisis. Just to express their emotions often gets one ridiculed. This is all times 100 if they were abused by a parent, especially dad. And you're not a success if your wife or kids don't have everything others' wives and kids have. Etc, etc. A lot of this applies to both genders in different ways.

[Moderator]

227. locking

This is flamebait.