Statutory Rape, or Pedophilia?

[hootinholler]

While it may well turn out that Foley is a pedophile, the evidence we have so far before us indicates not.

Until it is shown he advanced upon pre-pubescent individuals we should be accurate in our alegations and not use the pedophile label, which takes the accusation to a whole different level.

The term to use at present clearly is Statutory Rape, and possibly contributing to the delinquency.

-Hoot

[annabanana]

1. you are too nice by half!

I prefer to define "pedophile" colloquially.

per wiki:

In contrast to the generally accepted medical definition, the term pedophile is also used colloquially to denote significantly older adults who are sexually attracted to adolescents below the local age of consent.

. . .

Strictly speaking, this definition would include many adolescents and prepubescents, for whom such an interest might be normal; thus, some experts add the criterion that the interest be toward children at least five years younger than the subject.

[mike_c]

2. flirty talk isn't any kind of rape, so until someone comes forward...

...with actual sexual allegations, I'm not going to accuse Foley of anything but bad judgement and hypocrisy. I suspect it will happen before too long.

[Kagemusha]

3. You're not the first to say this. Here is my retort:

If the individual concerned was not Foley, what would Foley HIMSELF call it?

[Drum]

4. Doesn't a '-philia'

label indicate a more of a mental term about a person/patient's drives, making it more a medical diagnostic tool, like -mania, -phobia, etc?

Statutory rape and similar are exactly that: stautory (aka LEGAL) terms.

The difference is between motive and conduct, a distinction that folks don't worry too much about---but thank goodness the laws and courts still do.

Care must be taken to use appropriate terms in those discussions...we should try to use them according to the context of the discussion: medical, legal, etc. Plain ole name-calling just clouds the issue, but often people feel that making those distinctions is just an unnecessary interruption of their thought-process.

Thanks, Hoot, for the reminder....

[hootinholler]

5. I have to agree with your terminology.

And the difference between legal and medical terms.

-Hoot

[sam sarrha]

12. my brother is a ret cop, he says it starts and get worse, and worse

he said if you follow the history of any child murder it most certainly started with a pedophilia obsession.. and slowly escalated over time

this is not to say that some or most plateau at some point before killing the victim, but there is process of escalation there

i would pedophilia looks like an obsessive compulsive issue

what i have seen on documentary's is that it is often something they can not control and medication doesn't seem to work on them, and castration doesn't seem to work well either so it looks like a psychological problem. according to my brother they need to be removed from society, but not in a prison, maybe a walled community to live out their lives.

now that is pretty real coming form a retired police captain who dealt with such hideous situations on a regular basis, most want to shoot them.

[Drum]

13. Perhaps, but

I take comfort that the laws here in the US punish crimes, not tendencies or mental problems. When conduct---or worse, repeated and escalating patterns of conduct---indicates, I say let fly the full weight of the law, especially upon proven predators on children/youths.

But...when we lock up, banish, or sterilize people for thoughtcrimes, we are in a bad bad way.

I appreciate your (and your bro's) perspective and knowledge, but I am still for the firm legal line between thought and action. While Foley's real actions may or may not result in criminal legal action to the degree that would appease those after heis head, there are also congressional ethics actions to address, civil lawsuits, and of course the enduring shame that should make his political career quite over.

Not trying to be testy...I'm just drinking a lot of strong coffee right now.
(Hyper-caffeinated without intent)
:hi:

[sam sarrha]

21. i saw a secret video the Nurse killer, speck? made, he and 3 other murders

were smoking dope and getting drunk in a San Quentin store room making this tape with a stolen video camera. he had gotten a breast augmentation at tax payer expense.. the criminals, murders and child rapists were talking about their crimes and laughing.. speck said, 'if they knew how much fun i was having in here,.. they'd let me go'..

[sam sarrha]

6. apparently there is a mountain of transcripts, if so it would indicate he

has an ongoing obsession with too young boys and that sounds like pedophilia, from what i read of the transcripts there is NO DOUBT in my mind he is a pedophile.. talking to a 16 year old about what hand cream to masturbate with is way over the line of any doubt.

i must admit i am not impartial having been molested as a child.. but this guy stinks of pedophile..:puke:

[petronius]

7. Correct - and this insistence on the 'pedophile' label is self-defeating

Ultimately, I think the R spin is going to be that Foley behaved the way he did because he's gay. Basically, they're going to go for the 'gay=pervert' smear. It's tempting to respond to this with 'no, he's a pedophile' for two reasons: 1) pedophile is pretty much the worst accusation that can be brought up in this situation, and 2) labelling him a pedophile completely disassociates him from all the non-criminal, non-sexual-harassing, non-child-molesting gay men out there.

The problem with this response is that the 'pedophile' can be easily dismissed - the word simply doesn't mean what Foley is known to have done (and the colloquial meaning is irrelevant when we're considering the political/legal ramifications). So, if all we go with is pedophile, and that gets wiped away, the only explanation left standing is the R one - 'it's all because he's gay.' Even worse, down the road we could even end up with the Martyr Foley - accused by Ds of being a pedophile, but ultimately 'exonerated' (i.e., not a pedophile, despite what he really did).

We need to be accurate here - there are many negative words that we can use to accurately describe Foley's behavior besides 'pedophile,' and it does us no good to cling to an misguided talking point because it feels good to call names...

[TreasonousBastard]

8. You're right, but the lynch mob doesn't care...

and I'm not sure how much they care about the kids, either. Hang a Rebublican, no matter what the cause.

Foley had to be taken down, but the glee over this rather sad situation is a bit disconcerting.

[EFerrari]

11. I feel no glee about this -- especially knowing that there are

most likely other kids involved. And, the pressure they will be under in the coming days.

Statutory rape doesn't apply here. First, we don't know that there was any actual contact. Second, this isn't a case of normal people in mostly balance alliance. This was a CONGRESSMAN and a PAGE. Read the emails. This guy IS a pedophile. This kid wasn't his underaged lover but his prey.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. more than statutory rape.... it has to do

with the imbalance of power and authority.

Foley not only was a mature adult, he occupied a position of AUTHORITY that gave him even more 'responsibility'-

"Statutory Rape" might be 'acceptable' if you are speaking of a consenting average adult, and a consenting average underage child,(THIS IS STILL A CRIME- AND NOT DEFENSIBLE!!!) but when the person who is "of AGE" is in a position of Authority, such as : A Police Officer, a Teacher, a Mentor, a Parent, a Clergyperson, an Official, a Boss, or any number of other positions which give the 'Adult' an increased 'perception' of POWER- it is SEXUAL ABUSE- even if the child consents.

For crying out loud, anyone in NH under the age of 18 is not even ALLOWED TO TOUCH A BINGO CARD and often not even allowed in bingo halls, because they might become corrupted into a gambling addiction before they are 'mature' enough to understand what the risks are.

Pre-pubescent is a very very poor measurement of damage done- some kids enter puberty at age 8 these days- but thier innocence, and maturity are no where NEAR their physical devolopment.

This is a very triggering topic for me, I apologize if I sound overbearing

[Warpy]

10. It's only pedophilia if the target is sexually immature

in other words, hasn't yet reached puberty.

Foley may be guilty of being a sexual predator, a sexual harasser, or even a statutory rapist (unproven as yet), but he's not a pedophile.

However, there are plenty of GOP peophiles out there, all hiding behind the flag and the cross. Start with Susan Smith's daddy and work forward.

[Coventina]

14. Thank you for trying to inject some sanity.

The word "pedophile" is thrown around far too lightly.
I remain unconvinced that it applies in this case.

The guy is a creep and a sexual predator for sure.

But I grow tired of those who say that people under the age of 18 are automatically "children", and that sexual contact with them is pedophilia.

It that is truly the case, we need to enact laws that ensure that no one over the age of 18 is allowed to attend high school.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

15. What else do you call

a grown man who talks dirty to children?

[TahitiNut]

16. Unless the teen-aged boys were below the age of consent ...

... and it's also shown that there was physical contact, there was no "statutory rape" either. Sexual harrassment? Yep. (The gross imbalance in power and authority indicates that.) Perversion? Probably ... but one person's definition of 'perverse' is another's definition of 'erotic.' Sexual predation? That's probably the best label by far, imho.

[never_get_over_it]

17. It is neither

all we know is that the victims of this were mid to late teens - doesn't qualify as pedophilia
not statutory rape either since there is so far no actual evidence of physical sexual contact

to me it is sexual harassment in the workplace and I think he is a big freaking pervert - I think any 52 year old man hitting on any 16 year old male or female is a big freakig perv.....

[Lurking Dem]

27. He may get out of harrasment as well.

Seems he very carefully waited until the pages had finished their year.

I don't know if there are any legal grounds to actually convict this guy and that disturbs me greatly.

[hootinholler]

28. Maybe under the online predation laws helped to pass. n/t

[Lurking Dem]

29. Wouldn't that be sweet.

Karma's a bitch.

[sandnsea]

18. Just like the pedophile priests

He continued his behavor despite knowing it was illegal. He continued his behavior after HE wrote the laws making it illegal to engage in this sort of online sexual activity. He has an obsession, the "philia" part of pedophile is clear. People are insisting the DSM-IV refers only to prepubescents, but that's not true. The psychiatric community has struggled with the definition for a variety of reasons, it has gone back and forth. Somebody who looks at a picture in a fashion magazine, without knowing the age of the model, is not a pedophile. Someone who stalks underage people for sexual gratification is a completely different animal.

Ever since I've been to DU, 'pedophile priest' has been brought up every time the Church or Pope is mentioned. NOW people want to change the definition because gays are going to have to fight a stigma?? Bullshit.

Foley is a pedophile and the Repub leadership covered it up.

[Ksec]

19. Wheres theres smoke theres fire

The odds of him acting on these fantasies are high. Im sure the truth will show hes been a pedophile for years.

[hootinholler]

20. But truth is a now thing.

In the future, when more facts are known, it will still be a now thing, then, different from the now thing now.

Rumsfeldesque enough for ya?

-Hoot

[Poiuyt]

22. I still don't understand why Foley would not be considered a pedophile

The definitions I see say that it is an adult who has sexual fantasies about a child:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pedophilia

I was under the impression that a child is considered anyone under the age of consent (18 in my state). To be considered a pedophile, does one need only to fantasize about prepubescent children? And doesn't statutory rape necessitate physical contact?

What would be considered a legal definition and what would be considered a medical definition of pedophilia?

Thanks

[Lurking Dem]

26. Age of consent

is by state statute. In DC that is 16. So even statutory rape wouldn't be an appropriate charge under the law because the pages were of the age of consent.

[Sgent]

23. Sexual predator

Foley having sex w/ a 16 yo is legal in DC.

As for stat rape vs sexual assault -- that depends on the state.

Most states have one set of rules for minors between 10-12 and the age of consent, and another for minors below that age.

In my state, a 8 yo victim's perp is subject to the death penalty -- which is not the case when the victim is older.

[Bill McBlueState]

24. no, we're political hacks

We don't care about accuracy, only about pushing people's buttons. :eyes:

[ecstatic]

25. When the wo/man in question is 30+, its definitely pedophilia

I struggled with whether to draw the line at 25, but I can say for a fact that anyone 30+ messing around with teens or preteens is definitely a pedophile with a huge problem.