This is why I am no fan of the animal rights movement

[ButterflyBlood]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/09/29/pet_shop_blaze_deliberately_set_fire_officials_say/

Gee, let's protect animals by killing tons of them!

[libnnc]

1. Or lets commit insurance fraud.

Dollars to doughnuts, the owners torched the place for the insurance.

[jobycom]

9. Sounds more likely to me. What are the odds that an animal rights group

decided to cook a bunch of animals in this one pet store, without troubling other pet stores in the area, or starting any kind of rally? This seems like an isolated event, not an activist group.

[Eric J in MN]

14. I agree. Animal rights activists may free animals illegally, but they...

...don't cook animals.

[Solo_in_MD]

41. But they have killed them

[Eric J in MN]

49. Are you referring to euthanasia? NT

NT

[Solo_in_MD]

62. Try these links

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/06/23/EDG11DC9BK1.DTL

http://www.austinreview.com/archives/2005/06/peta_kills_1.html

[Eric J in MN]

63. You believe that PETA killed animals which...

...could have been adopted, for the hell of it?

[petronius]

19. Or a disgruntled employee, or a pissed off neighbor

Of the five possibilities I can come up with, I'd rank the the likelihoods as:

1) disgruntled employee
2) arson for the sake of arson (i.e., a stranger)
3) insurance fraud
4) neighbor dispute
5) animal 'rescue'

[nam78_two]

23. yeah after reading the article thats what I figure too/nt

[Greyhound]

57. Got it in one. Thanks.

[question everything]

2. Or any other movement that bombs and kills

others to prove a point. Like some of the actions of the Weathermen during the 60s and, of course, the "pro life" who bomb abortion clinics.

[ret5hd]

3. yeah, me too...

i always judge a group by the most idiotic of its members. that way i always have an excuse for not getting anything done.

[nam78_two]

22. Bingo

:thumbsup:

[OneBlueSky]

4. actions like this are NOT representative of the animal rights . . .

movement or 99% of the people (like me) who support it . . .

[bobbolink]

34. Really? Hmmmm, I received, anonymously, of course

a very inflammatory mailing from a DUer in Georgia, just because I had the temerity to say I'm not and don't intend to be a vegetarian.

Some are really off their rockers.

[skipos]

45. Just as some progressives are off their rockers, some athiests are off

their rockers, some minorities are off their rockers, some gays are off their rockers, etc.
Unfortunately the nutty people, though they are few and far between, are the ones who get the most attention.

[bobbolink]

48. And all it takes is being targetted like this to turn people off.

Interesting that you didn't speak against what happened to me....

[nam78_two]

52. I would direct you to the freepers who say

look at all the terrorist acts...clearly ALL muslims are terrorists...

:eyes:

One inflammatory mailing, however wrong it is, does not represent the entire movement and more importantly the principles it is founded on...

Factory farming is inhumane and just plain wrong, even if there are a few nuts who are also saying its wrong and "putting people off"...

Maybe people should pick on less shallow metrics by which to guage a movement than whether they can luuurvve all the people in it.

[bobbolink]

55. You're so right.

That terrorist mailing didn't affect me at all.

Why, it made me feel more loving towards "animal rights" people.

Yup, that's right.

Thanks for your concern.

[nam78_two]

59. The inflammatory mailing was very bad

I don't know too many normal AR activists who would think something like that is good or that it makes the movement look good.

It still does not make the entire movement bad -the movement has a very important message.

The source of compassion, generally speaking, is the same whether for humans or for animals. Gandhi, a staunch vegetarian, once said "The way a society treats animals is an indicator of its morality".

As long as we dismiss as unimportant, the serious cruelty, we as a society are subjecting animals to (I am not talking about going vegetarian necessarily-but looking into the kind of cheap factory farmed meat that is eaten by many) we will be more vulnerable to being less compassionate towards humans as well....

[bobbolink]

67. Thank you for finally giving me a bit of empathy,.

Sometimes I wonder if it's even possible any more.

As for the animals, as a homeless person, I can tell you that I certainly wish I and other homeless people had HALF the support and concern that animals get.

BTW, did you know there was an ASPCA waaaay before there was an organization on behalf of children??? Back in the days of child labor, even, but it wasn't seen as important as animals.

Something to consider.

[nam78_two]

73. Apologies regarding the harsher post earlier

I am truly sorry that you are currently homeless...I hope things get better for you soon.

I didn't mean to sound snotty earlier-this is just something I feel very passionate about and the picture I have in my head (gah online debates) when I am debating someone who seems to be against animal rights, is typically an over-privileged jock that doesn't understand the concept of being in pain or suffering. I am sure that is not you now.

As for there being more concern over animals than homeless people, you are half right.

There is a caste system within the animal kingdom. There is lot of concern about animals people typically find "cute" like cats, dogs etc.

But trust me there are a lot of animals in this country for instance-specially "food animals" (after all we kill a billion a year for food) who don't get a second's consideration as far as their welfare goes.

There are not even basic humane slaughter techniques required for slaughtering poultry.

I have been inside some of these factory farms-horrible places...animals literally too sick to stand are forced to stand by restrictive cages. These animals -and this is not hyperbole-spend every instant of their lives in extreme physical pain and misery..
They throw anti-biotics at these sick, deformed creatures just so they are barely kept alive till they can be slaughtered.

Of course the industries doing this treat humans as badly as they can too...slaughterhouse workers-miserably underpaid..If they get hurt at their miserable jobs they are summarily fired.


The meat industry's underbelly is a sick sick place of abuse of humans and animals. It amazes me how many legal protections there are for animals that fall under the "pet" category, while there are virtually none for farm animals.

Anyway to finish, I think animal rights activists, environmentalists, labor rights activists, civil rights activists, feminists etc., whatever their differences here/there, are really by and large very much on the same team.

Apologies for my earlier rudeness...I hope things get better for you soon :hi:

[bobbolink]

79. Thank you.

However, I stopped reading with all the defenses.

Yes, I love animals too, and don't need to be beaten over the head with it, and it would be *really* nice if there was anywhere near that passion for homeless people. Maybe some day you will be able to write that much passion for those of us who are suffering the way we are.

One homeless man held up a sign that said it all -- "IF I were a dog, would you help me?

That's become my motto.

[nam78_two]

82. ?

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that I am only involved in caring for animals or that they were "defenses"...

This post was about animals and so that was what I was talking about...

I am actually extremely involved with the local foodgatherers that works with providing good quality food to the local soup kitchens. I think homelessness and hunger are two very serious problems in a country where so many people have more than they need and some have nothing...the whole two americas thing....

I don't see how you concluded that I have no passion for the injustices against homeless people/seniors etc. Did you read what I wrote about slaughterouse workers? Oh I forgot you didn't bother to read the whole post.

Anyway, you only seem to want to start something as I see from the posts below with Haruka :shrug:...I like dialogue not this sort of combat.


So I will just say have a good day and move on. And I do hope things get better for you.

[bobbolink]

83. Good day.

[skipos]

54. I agree.

I wasn't avoiding your situation at all. The vegetarian shouldn't have done it, and should have known that it would only do damage to his or her cause.

[bobbolink]

56. Thank you. It's so rare anymore to find any compassion or

empathy.

I don't know why that is, but it's certainly not helping our society any.

[skipos]

58. And just so you know

I have been a vegetarian for 15+ years. We aren't all nutz, some of us are very nice! :hi:

[bobbolink]

68. Thanks! That means a lot!

:pals:

Sometimes I'm just so down and exhausted from all the confrontation and disregard for human feelings that I'm ready to give up and just live in a cave.

I appreciate your message!

[robinlynne]

5. I doubt animal rights activists did that. Really.

[WindRavenX]

7. No kidding

:eyes: Sometimes DU still makes me shake my head...

Most animal rights protesters are commited to non-violence.

[Opusnone]

15. I'm with you

I don't trust anyone who doesn't treat animals humanely, conversely, I don't trust anyone who doesn't treat animal lovers humanely.

[Solo_in_MD]

42. Ive run into a few violent ones...

or at least ones that were willing to take on little old ladies in fur trimed coats. They tend to back away from confronting those who can defend themselves.

[nam78_two]

51. So the ENTIRE movement is of course defined by the people you met

:eyes:

If anecdotal evidence cinches an argument then I can tell you about all the peaceful, compassionate animal rights activists I know.

[Solo_in_MD]

60. Note I said a "few", not all or most,

and they were violent to the weak and cowards when stood up to.

[zonkers]

6. How do we know perp was actually affiliated with animal rights movement?

Does not seem like the behavior of anyone connected to a responsible organization.

[asthmaticeog]

8. Look, I'm no big PETA fan, but there's no way this was a movement action.

This was either a totally misguided individual, or a case of insurance lightning with the graf added as a red herring.

[flvegan]

10. It's astonishing

that you've solved this crime already. Such detectivework surely has no equal and should certainly bring top dollar and accolades in the field.

Kick ass broad brush you're painting with there, too.

[xchrom]

11. i'm a BIG animal rights fan -- and this

was the action of sick fucks -- not animal rights people.

but this was intended as a flame fest -- so what ever.

[K8-EEE]

12. Ridiculous Charicterization Of That Movement!!

Excuse me, but find me a PETA person or any animal rights activist who advocates this. Lame post.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. Can we say "Insurance Fraud?"

Sorry, but that was not an animal rights action. At all.

[bluestateguy]

16. I'm not a fan of commercial pet stories either. But this is despicable.

I'm all for tough animal cruelty laws, and only support animal testing when absolutely necessary. Actions like this are just a low grade form of terrorism.

[Eric J in MN]

17. There are laws about exotic pets being debated...

Someone opposed to restrictions on exotic pets may have done this to make animal rights activists look bad.

Real animal rights activists don't cook animals.

[WindRavenX]

18. yeah um, there was no evidence that the people who did it were actually...

...animal rights activists.

[nam78_two]

20. The entire movement is not defined by some extremists

There are people who are doing stuff like this:
http://www.farmsanctuary.com

or
exposing actual cruelties-I met Paul Shapiro-he is a very nice person. He lives on less than 25k a year to ensure that people know about the cruelties involved in mass chicken factories:

http://www.cok.net

There are so many quiet, hard-working, dedicated activists. Of course the media doesn't like to focus on them. So much better to pick out the extremists (I am not denying they exist and yes they are crazy and bad for the entire movement) but they are small fraction of a large and by and large very compassionated and empathic(?) movement.

Edit: After reading that article I am fairly sure they were not even animal activists-animal activists don't do this. But great way to tar an entire movement.

[Solo_in_MD]

43. The anti choice gang make the same argument about clinic bombers

and snipers

[nam78_two]

50. So?

Does some group using an argument invalidate the argument itself?
I don't care what the anti-choice people say-I don't define my thoughts based on what anti-choice people say. I am an animal activist-I am completely opposed to violence of any kind. All the animal activists I know are extremely non-violent.

Am I supposed to read the OP's post and decide that then I must be some sort of violent person because the OP says so and the anti-choice people used the argument I made? Great logic :eyes:

Incidentally, as much as I disagree with anti-choice people, I would never make such a sweeping and incorrect statement as to say that all of them are clinic bombers.

Btw if it comes to that the Freepers would use the OP's argument to claim that ALL muslims are terrorists.

[ContraBass Black]

61. Most anti-choice people don't go shooting people and blowing things up.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

65. And neither do most animal rights activists.

In fact, there are no terroristic actions by them that have resulted in the death of humans, to my knowledge.

[BrklynLiberal]

21. Very well thought out and analysed reaction. NOT!!!!!!!!

:wtf:

[Patchuli]

24. I'm angry at PETA

for getting the no dog tethering law signed in by the Governator out here. While I can see that some people do tether their dogs too long, in some cases tethering is better than having to stay in the fenced back yard most of the time, albeit with a dog house. My dog prefers to stay in our dog-friendly garage with the door up, his bed, his toys, food and water on a long enough tether (20 feet) that he can go out in the yard and go potty. He has a nice long range on his cable. This cable also prevents him from scaring the crap out of the mailman, etc. and chasing UPS trucks down the street as he did a few weeks ago when he was temporarily loose! It is for his safety and others that he is tethered. I wish he could be a house dog but he is too big and unruly. His previous family deserted him next door at 4 years old, completely untrained or housebroken. They never kept him in the house. It's like having a full sized puppy! I would not put it past him to chew on my couch if I didn't watch him like a hawk. So now, PETA decides it's cruel to do this more than 3 hours and got a law passed. How sad my dog either has to stay in the back yard in his dog house or in the garage with the door down. They didn't take situations like ours into account and only saw the stereotype of 'chaining dogs' in bad situations. PETA even had the nerve to send me email with a pre-written letter for me to sign and send to Schwarzenneger to pass this bill against my dog's and our interests. I wrote them back, said I didn't believe it was a good bill and asked them to respond to my opinion of the bill. I heard NADA.

Sometimes they do more harm than good, IMO.

[BrklynLiberal]

27. ...

http://www.k9trainers.com/california.htm

[Patchuli]

35. Thanks, but we've used a dog trainer

and he's a lifetime member of the PETCO Dog School. He's MUCH better than he used to be but he's got terrible ingrained habits. He will NOT stop jumping on us (he's 50 pounds) and all the knee up in the chest moves in the world can't make him stop. I work with him every day but he's never going to be laid-back enough for the house. I have to use the pressure collar on him to walk him or he drags me down the street to the park and back. I've pulled muscles in my knee walking this boy. For solace, I just bought 'Marley and Me' which is about the worlds worst dog!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

37. Did you ever try rolling him when he jumps?

I've found that pretty effective with a few dogs. If he jumps, grab his scruff and bring him to the ground. Put him on his back and make him stay there until he calms down. It's a good way to show you're the alpha dog in dog language basically.

[Patchuli]

40. Thank you for that! I'll try it

if I can get the big boy down! He does try to bully me more than my husband. Maybe it's because I baby him more than he does? He tries to force me to walk where he wants, literally like he's the dog herding sheep! He would have probably made a great farm dog.

BTW, our friend just came over and got jumped on in a most, um sensitive area. Sigh...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

44. Yeah, that's the German Shepherd in him.

Ours used to try herding the family and the cats constantly.

He's bullying you more than your husband because he thinks he's alpha over you. The husband babies him less, so the dog knows his place with him. You should be able to make him go down. I'm tiny. I only weigh about 105lbs, but I've done it with a 95lb Shepherd. Read the training book from the Monks of New Skete. My local library has a few copies, so you could probably find one at yours. Their methods are really good and it should help you out a bit.

For the record, my family has always had Shepherds, Pit Bulls, and mixes thereof, plus I once worked as a caretaker for 5 shepherds, so I'm familar with the breed.

[Patchuli]

47. Thank you! I'll check my local

indie bookstore too. That book sounds like a keeper! I appreciate the help. I love Lucky but he's the handful. I wish I'd had him as a fresh puppy!

[bobbolink]

69. Thanks for giving your pooch a good home!

Obviously, it would have been easier for you to forget about this dog which was left, but you had enough heart to take him "in" (well, at least into the garage --hehe)

It sounds like you've spent many hours with him, and not a few bucks, and that deserves to be recognized.

Thanks!! :hi:

[Patchuli]

87. Thank you...I couldn't let him be put down

just for being 'inconvenient' for his original family and their landlord. He's pretty cute too. He looks like a big blond Disney family movie dog, you know the smiley kind? :-)

I hope things improve for you very soon...:pals:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

29. Don't be mad at PETA for the tethering rule, be mad at the idiots that

made is necessary. You may provide for your dog properly, but many people do not and that is why the tethering law was passed. Many people keep their dogs on to short of a tether with too small collars, plus tethering often triggers aggression, if the dog is threatened. It's purely psychological, but a dog is less likely to respond aggressively, if in a fenced-in yard than it is when tied to a tether. That doesn't even have to do with "tethering in bad situations." It is purely based on the pyschology of the average dog. Both your dog and strange people/animals would be safer in the backyard.

Honestly, if you're going to have the dog, you should also invest in some training if it acts like a big puppy. Four years old is not too old for training. Just because the last owners were too irresponsible to train it, doesn't mean you should perpetuate their irresponsibility.


http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/animal_abuse_and_neglect/the_facts_about_chaining_or_tethering_dogs.html

[Patchuli]

38. There's no "if" about having him, he's now 7 years old

and you could consider him to be a bonafide spoiled dog with bad habits that won't be broken!

Please see my response to the other poster. I've invested hundreds in training and we are certainly not "perpetuating" the previous owner's "irresponsibility." They didn't even give him shots, fix him or buy a dog license. We've invested thousands of dollars in our dog and our three inside cats. The kittys are another reason he can't come in. We don't totally know how gentle he'd be with them.

Why is it because I don't always think tethering is bad that someone gets the idea that we don't treat our doggy royally?!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

46. Sorry. I was just going by the info in your original message, which didn'

didn't have any of the info you just gave me. It doesn't sound like you're being irresponsible with the info I now have.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

74. AHH!!! I'm sorry. In my post below I typed "doesn't" instead of "does"

And it's too late to edit it. So, sorry. It DOES sound like you're being responsible.

[bobbolink]

70. How 'bout giving the guy credit for taking in a homeless and

hard-to-handle dog, and just a bit of empathy for what he's trying to do?

Wouldn't that fit in with your values?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. Excuse me, but please read the rest of my posts before assuming what

my values are. I'm simply pointing out what is behind the tethering law. Okay?

[bobbolink]

72. Read 'em. The guy deserves some credit.

Which you would have understood if you had read *his* posts.

"You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

Really.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

75. I'm sorry, but please go start shit where it's deserved. Thanks.

I was responding to the information provided to their original post. I then offered some training advice and recommendations (which the poster THANKED me for), and then apologized for my other posts.

What exactly do you want from me?

Really.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[bobbolink]

78. What exactly?

Just some kind words, that would be nice.

I simply said the guy deserves some credit, and you took that for a fight.

What's up with all this? What would it take for us to have a few kind words for each other, instead of having our fists out all the time?

REally?? I thought we were all on the "same side", but you wouldn't know that from reading half the stuff here.

Just a few kind words, eh?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

80. I had thought I gave the poster some kind words.

I don't know why you're trying to start something and then pinning it on me. Do it elsewhere.

[bobbolink]

81. Start something?

I asked to give him credit where do.

Yes, that's what I'd like to start.

A bit of kindness among us.

I'd like to pin that on you, that you can start some kindness and giving credit where due.

OK???

Let's be a little easier on folks, 'k?

The guy gave a homeless dog a lot of attention, his energy, and a large amount of money. Isn't that worth something?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

85. Yes, adopting a homeless dog is worth something and I never said it wasn't

That's why I don't understand what your problem is and why you keep talking telling me I need to show kindness. Trust me, I give out plenty of kindness in this world, plenty of DUers will vouch for that, but I don't give it because some stranger on the internet has informed me I'm not being kind enough.

Sorry, but that's the way I am. Take it or leave it.

[nam78_two]

84. You did give the poster kind words as well some great advice/nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. Thank you. nt

[Patchuli]

88. I agree :-) nt

[yewberry]

33. The law makes exceptions for running lines and pulley systems.

Is that kind of system what you have in place? If so, the law doesn't apply to you.

Please, please, give some time to training and socializing this dog.

[Patchuli]

36. I've give the last three years trying to train him

He's now 7. You can only do so much. He is very social and loves people but not until you make friends with him. He is overly protective of us and the house. We're not 100% sure of both his mixed breeds, but he is definitely half German Shepard and possibly yellow lab. He is the ultimate watch dog.

He's on a running line. He is free-range loose in the backyard when we're at work and gets plenty of loose time playing in the front yard. He gets toys and chews and treats for fun and when I train him. Please don't pity my dog; he's quite happy and we did get him pulled off the Kill List to adopt him as the owner of the house took him to the pound when his tenants moved out and left him. He has quite the story but trust me, we saved his life.

[flvegan]

66. PETA was one of 17 orgs that sponsored the bill

Your anger should be directed equally amongst the following:

American Anti-Vivisection Society
Animal Legislative Action Network
Animal Place
Animal Protection Institute
Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights
California Animal Defense and Anti-Vivisection League
California Lobby for Animal Welfare
Doctors for Kindness to Animals
Farm Sanctuary
In Defense of Animals
Last Chance for Animals
Orange County People for Animals
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
The Paw Project
United Animal Nations
United Poultry Concerns
Viva! USA.

[Catchawave]

77. Here's another good group:

http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/home.html

[BuyingThyme]

25. Is the "animal rights movement" like the "homosexual community"?

[Akoto]

26. This reminds me of something from Family Guy.

The main character's favorite bar, the Drunken Clam, burns down the day after the owner takes out a huge insurance policy on it.

Lois: "Doesn't that strike you as a little odd?"

Insurance Agent: "Well, no. In fact, it seems to happen all the time."

[Arugula Latte]

28. Bullshit.

A person who was truly concerned with animals would not do this.

And how sweeping of you to just dismiss a movement that is against torturing living, sentient creatures who live lives of pain, misery and desperation confined in cages where they cannot turned around, force-fed with feeding tubes down their throats, electrically prodded into the slaughterhouse where they are systematically mutilated while still alive, and on and on.

[nam78_two]

31. Thank you-very well said!/nt

[Lorien]

39. Well put, Oregonian

I swear, I won't be surprised if I start seeing posts on DU that state "this is why I'm against the civil rights movement..." or "this is why I'm against feminism..." Once upon a time being liberal meant standing up for those with no voice of their own. Sadly, that no longer seems to be the case.

[nam78_two]

53. look a few posts above

There are people actually arguing that "they met some RUDE animal rights activists dammit"

Obviously that means that everyone who supports animal rights or the principles its based on have to be wrooooong :sarcasm:

[cynatnite]

30. It didn't say he was a part of PETA or ALF..

sounds like a nut with nothing better to do.

[buddhamama]

32. this is one person

why are slandering an entire movement because of the actions of one person?

the article doesn't mention him being affiliated with any Org.

seriously. get a grip.

[wicket]

64. I used to shop there all the time

It's right down the street from me. This is heartbreaking, and I highly doubt the animal rights angle.

Goddammit :cry:

[Midlodemocrat]

76. I don't believe animal rights activists did this.

That would be like me, a person who simply adores children and spends a great deal of time volunteering to help those with a disabled child, burning down an orphanage.

There's more to this.