Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Wehret den Anfngen

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:19 PM
Original message
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 05:22 PM by tjwash
A friend of mine, who is German, told me that saying once. It translates to resist the beginnings. Ever since Nazism and the holocaust, this is a very common saying in Germany, and is taught to everyone out there, and is treated as an extremely important matter. Its about resisting and standing up against the rise of fascism, so that it never returns to them in their lifetimes again. A saying that we would better relate to in our language would most likely be nip it in the bud.

To see so many Americans just sit back and accept what is happening right now in our history, sickens me to no end. When a country passes a law as heinous as this, even when it is clear that it not only goes against the most basic of all basic human rights, it also goes against internationally binding treaties like the Geneva Convention, it can never end well for that country in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Basic human morality, and thousands of years of written history have tried to tell us two things; you should never make exceptions in which torture is allowed, and you should never exculpate your soldiers for "just following orders." It is the beginning of a very slippery slope for any society when the passage of laws that only apply to "good" citizens, and can be suspended for any others, start creeping in.

There was also another term, in the same vein, that my German friend told me as well; Mitlufer. It means runners-with and is a term that is commonly used to describe people that sort of just go with the flow. My point is, that the people that refuse to get outraged, and even SUPPORT this insane legislation, are not all freepers and neo-cons. Just like in the 30s, there was a majority of people that didnt have a burning fanaticism about fascism, or Hitler, or the Nazi party. Neither did they hate Jews or Gays. They merely got swept up in the current of the times and went with it. Much in the same way we hear friends and neighbors say things today, such as why would I care about the Government tapping my phone? I have nothing to hide. The new laws didn't apply to them back then, did they now? So why protest? Why be scared? Why worry about anything that does not affect me?

Unfortunately, as history has proven again, and again, it will affect them eventually. This is a law, that will take a few horrible illustrations by example to get it repealed. Another thing history unfortunately teaches us, and was best said by Abraham Lincoln; is that that the best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it without exception. Unfortunately, it is going to take having a few of the Mitlufer trapped in that unconscionable system, getting their story publicized, and waiting for the outrage to build nationally before any of this horrible legislation will go away.

For the record, I have intentionally NEVER compared Bush to Hitler. Or Musollini. Or Pol-Pot, Idi Amin, or Fidel Castro. Nor am I doing it now, And I never will do it. Why? To do so is to automatically give up any chance we may have to tell people what a completely misguided, and unfortunate law that this is, because the ones who need to hear it the most will automatically dismiss you as a weak kneed moron who gives in to terrorists. Besides, we should be discussing and debating the policies, morality, and logic of the Bush Administration, not which historical dictator the president is most similar to.

I would rather put the ebb and flow of our society in a historical context, as that is usually the best judge. If things continue as they are, America will soon be the pariah of moral failure; the one that everyone points to in the future as the ones to never, ever be like.

Thats not the future that I want to see for our country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
revree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. So utterly well said
This is just so right on the mark. The "masses" wallow in a sort of haze of ignorance, fear, denial, and a few other things, and get swept along with the flow, not even aware that flow will one day take them to a deep place of despair.

Thanks for posting this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Repubs are counting on the religious right and the rich
to keep them going. There will come a time when even the rich and the fundamentalists will be in the way of the fascists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flubadubya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Unfortunately, by that time...
they will have already eliminated all of us. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
awesome post, awesome pic

WHAT CAN WE DO?!?!?!?!

I will be protesting at the Texas Capitol on 10/5, but other than that...

???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Niche Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. "... nothing was done when A happened what do we do when C happens..."
here's a link to a German man talking about rise of Hitler. Posted the other day by another DUer.

(What do we do now? Now that we let it all slide? I'm lost. We hit the streets - the news shows nothing, we blog, we put signs in our cars - that freepers key, our government does not speak or act on behalf of its people.)

How about a class action law suit against them? Legally what can we do?

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Here are some of the most chilling paragraphs from that piece:
(excerpt from Milton Mayer's ""They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945":

"They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945":

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist." And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in your nation, your people is not the world you were in at all. <more>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. kick
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kick ASS post (Recommended)
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 05:36 PM by BeHereNow
Unfortunately, I think there are far more "Mitlaufers" in this
country than "Wehret den Anfngen-ers"

A few years a go, a friend of mine who was then 90,
was pounding his kitchen table as he looked me
in the eyes and exclaimed, "It's happening again!
HOW can it be happening again? Don't the people recognize
what is happening? "

In that he escaped Hitler, I guess he would know.
Too bad every one else appears not to.

Including those who think the 2006 elections will
fix what has been decades in the making.
AS if.
BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flying Dream Blues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kick. Everyone should read this post and thread...thanks! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Katzenjammer Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
10. It comes from Latin: Finem respice et principiis obsta
'Think about the ending and resist the beginnings'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Klukie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks for a great post. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. K&R: excellent piece...
I don't want to see it lost in the shuffle of Foley and the Abramhoff Emails.

Thanks for posting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. KICK, KICK, KICK.
This post says it all.
And, any person who is capable of objectively and honestly
assessing our collective situation will agree with that statement.

BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. .
getreten & empfohlen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
16. K&R.nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Principiis obsta: Resist the beginnings.
My sig line for the last year or so. Stop these fuckers before it's too late.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm thinking of making that my sig line as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NewHampshireDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
43. Ovid, right? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
19. Back in the early days after 9/11 many of our
European DUers were sounding the warning salvos and were shot down by those who said it couldn't happen here. There are those DUers like Octafish who didn't give up on getting the facts out to us and now it's becoming true. Unfortunately it's almost too late. If we don't take back Congress this November, then it's too late. We are going to have a hard time getting rid of those institutions and organizations who have brought this about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-29-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. I asked my hubby today if we shouldn't move to Germany
Edited on Fri Sep-29-06 11:25 PM by tblue
where at least the law says the people are free.

Your post gave me chills.

American law says we the people are not free????? It is very real, isn't it? This isn't just a bad dream?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
21. ---
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Hermann Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Katzenjammer Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Goering-Zitat
"Nun, natrlich, das Volk will keinen Krieg. Warum sollte irgendein armer Landarbeiter im Krieg sein Leben aufs Spiel setzen wollen, wenn das Beste ist, was er dabei herausholen kann, dass er mit heilen Knochen zurckkommt. Natrlich, das einfache Volk will keinen Krieg; weder in Russland, noch in England, noch in Amerika, und ebenso wenig in Deutschland. Das ist klar. Aber schlielich sind es die Fhrer eines Landes, die die Politik bestimmen, und es ist immer leicht, das Volk zum Mitmachen zu bringen, ob es sich nun um eine Demokratie, eine faschistische Diktatur, um ein Parlament oder eine kommunistische Diktatur handelt.
...
Das Volk kann mit oder ohne Stimmrecht immer dazu gebracht werden, den Befehlen der Fhrer zu folgen. Das ist ganz einfach. Man braucht nichts zu tun, als dem Volk zu sagen, es wrde angegriffen, und den Pazifisten ihren Mangel an Patriotismus vorzuwerfen und zu behaupten, sie brchten das Land in Gefahr. Diese Methode funktioniert in jedem Land."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michael_1166 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. 
und die Meinung anderer ist mir in dieser Hinsicht vllig egal. Ich sehe nicht ein, warum fr mich das Land, in dem ich zuflligerweise geboren wurde, irgend einen hheren Wert haben sollte als jeder andere Fleck auf der Erde. Es wre ein wichtiger Schritt fr euch Amerikaner, wenn ihr einsehen wrdet das Patriotismus der erste Schritt auf dem Weg zum Faschismus ist. Schaut euch nur an, was gerade in eurem Land passiert: Alles fing mit dem bermssigem Wedeln von Flaggen an, und damit, dass ihr euch auf euer Land zuviel einbildet.

(okok, translation...)
I always found patriotism to be a pest, and I really don't care what others think about me in that regard. I cannot see why the country I've been born in by coincidence should be of a higher value than any other place on Earth. It would be an important step for you Americans to realize that patriotism is the first step on the road to fascism. Just have a look at what's happening in your country right now: It all started with excessive flag-waving and feeling too smug about your country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
schrodingers_cat Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Micheal 1166, thank you for being a part of the DU family
I can't tell you how much I appreciate the input from people from other countries. In my limited grasp of the german language, I believe that 'pest' can also be translated as 'plague', and I think that many of us feel this about the current form of patriotism in this country. Right after 9/11, the feeling of pulling together after the incident was true and pure, not just in america, but in many countries. But it began to take on a different face, as the corporate owned media transformed it into something that to most of us here is now repulsive and terrifying.
I was just in Berlin, and my friends were asking me how we were letting this happen, and why we weren't turning out in the streets to protest. And I had very little to answer. I could talk about how we do turn out in the streets, but can only get lots of people out in the big cities. And I can talk about how the media will not cover our protests, and how we are labeled as extremists. And I am ashamed that I don't have a more comprehensive answer. And I ask myself, as I hold on to a job for dear life that many other people would like to have, whether I can afford to put it on the line, and go to these midweek protests, and stand up for my conscience? And I wonder where I stand between 'mitlaufer' and 'gegener', if that is the correct word in your language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michael_1166 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yes, "plague" fits much better... that's what I wanted to say
Regarding your friends in Berlin - well I guess if some criminals in suits would hijack our government, there also wouldn't be much protest in our streets anymore. It is very sad, but it looks like the time for political movements (like in the 70s and especially the 80s) is over.
We're a country with a high unemployment rate (around 12 %, I'm one of them), and the struggle for finding/keeping a job and upholding their status in society makes most people generally disinterested in politics. Not that they'd have to fear losing their job if they'd turn up at protests and demonstrations - it's just that they don't care anymore, as long as there's cheap beer in the fridge and silly entertainment on TV.
Bush's new torture/detention without trial law got reported here in the mainstream media, although it's not headline news. And so far I haven't heard any German politician or party commenting or condemning the fact that their "friend", the United States of America, just have turned into a dictatorship. I don't think their silence is because they are embarrassed, I think it's because they're accomplices. The future looks quite gloomy to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
schrodingers_cat Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Yes, I believe they would agree with you...
that there is a level of complicity between our greater government bodies...is it the same global corporatist drive? Where the corporations are so spread between countries that the drive becomes to insure stability through government collusion on all matters diplomatic? These friends, they are also confused as to the German govenment's failure to take a stronger stand against some of the U.S.'s actions, and they also notice the demonization of the left in Germany, although it doesn't seem to be as strong in your country as ours. I think that what they wanted to remark to me the most, though, was a feeling that the good America that they had once admired, has fallen down, that we have frittered away the goodwill of our allies, and have left behind a void.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. In a little known move
The Carlyle Group recently invested BILLIONS into Germany and currently are installing their "American model" undermining the social contract. Walmart was unable to unravel it quicklx enough and sold out. However, Germany is currently under siege by multinationals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. "It all started with excessive flag-waving and feeling too smug..."
...about your country."

True that. All the extreme flag waving jingo spouting nonsense really got kicked into high gear under Reagan, and has just gotten worse since then.

I have never believed in any of that stuff by the way. I don't stand, or remove my hat during the national anthem (I get some stranger stares at ball games for that one.) I don't do loyalty oaths like the pledge of allegiance. When challenged about it occasionally, I just say "I was born in a supposedly free country wasn't I?" and leave it at that.

Right now I am keeping a close eye on the Pasadena church under investigation by the IRS for an anti-war sermon the minister gave. It's nothing more than a pre-emptive strike on the first amendment. I'm interested to see how many people even know that is happening right now.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michael_1166 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. Maybe the flag-wavers feel a naive kind of pride
There'd be nothing wrong with it, like in sports for example when cheering for a team. But it looks to me like your country got hijacked by people who have the power to turn a citizen's love for their country into something dark and dangerous for the rest of us. And I hear they also have turned Christianity into an insane, intolerant ideology. Where will this end?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tin Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Chilling quotation.
It's now September 2006, and Karl Rove couldn't have said it any better. Probably keeps it tucked in his wallet as an emergency refresher.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
22. K & R! eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
27. DNC take note...
Every single day 'talking points' for the entire Democratic Party can be found in the writings that appear in DU. Great post TJ - like you and many others I KNOW that when pushed too far REAL AMERICANS will stand up and say that Hope not Fear is the foundation of this country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. Awesome, awesome post
Resist the beginnings indeed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phillinweird247 Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
31. Wow! That gave me goosebumps.....
That is right on the mark.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
32. Yep, kick that posting.
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 12:59 PM by HereSince1628
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. Well, said.
These are sad and frightening times for our nation, but we cannot give up now.

Thank you for an excellent essay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
34. Gesetzvertretende Verordnungen
The neocons have now completed "the arrogation of all power into the hands of a unitary executive Presidential dictatorship, and have their own gesetzvertretende Verordnungen or law-substituting decrees, or rather Constitution-substituting decrees, in particular scrubbing the Fourteenth Amendment.

The military trials bill approved by Congress lends legislative support for the first time to broad rules for the detention, interrogation, prosecution and trials of terrorism suspects far different from those in the familiar American criminal justice system, explains the Washington Post. President Bushs argument that the government requires extraordinary power to respond to the unusual threat of terrorism helped him win final support for a system of military trials with highly truncated defendants rights. Included in the bill, passed by Republican majorities in the Senate yesterday and the House on Wednesday are unique rules that bar terrorism suspects from challenging their detention or treatment through traditional habeas corpus petitions. They allow prosecutors, under certain conditions, to use evidence collected through hearsay or coercion to seek criminal convictions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. Fliegende Kinderscheisse! Great Post!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Hahahah!
Fliegende Kinderscheisse! We have that at our house on occasion :) Good visual..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Timbuk3 Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. A secret trial and execution for Christ?
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 02:23 PM by Timbuk3
I wonder what Bush's base would be doing today if Jesus had been tried and executed in secret?

Even the Salem witch trials, as insane as that was, were conducted in public.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bushmeister0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
39. 
"I have intentionally NEVER compared Bush to Hitler."

That's right, people are really missing the point when they do. His administration is more like Vlad Putin's Authoritarian Oligarchy.

Speaking of German words and terms: Another one I've been thinking about lately is "Der Nacht- und Nebel-Erla." The infamous "Night and Fog" directive signed by Hitler on Dec. 7 1941. This is how it's described at wikipedia:

"Even before the deportation and mass murder of the innocents of Europe, the mentally impaired, the Jews, the Gypsies, and so forth, the Nazis had been dealing severely with political prisoners. Most of the early prisoners were of two sorts: they were either prisoners of belief/political prisoners whom the Nazis deemed in need of "re-education" to Nazi thinking, or resistance leaders in occupied western Europe. Up until the time of the "Night and Fog" decree, prisoners were handled by German soldiers in approximately the same way other countries did: according to national agreements and procedures such as the Geneva Convention. Hitler and his upper level staff, however, made a critical decision not to have to conform to what they considered unnecessary rules. The Third Reich, after all, was not a party to the Geneva Convention, and so observed it only as needed to reduce tensions with other nations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_and_Fog_prisoner

Sound familiar?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ForeignSpectator Donating Member (970 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. while I share the most worries expressed here...
...and above all DETEST the current "administration" and everything they stand for ( quite superfluous to state, maybe... ), I still find that many of you act like all is lost already.
In my opinion, you're (still) far away from how Germany was 70 years ago and like bushmeister said, Putin and his oligarchy is a better comparison anyway.
So what's my point? I would like to compare the current regime to a disease and America is the patient. For years, the disease could do what it wanted, there was nothing opposing it, no immune system.
But, isn't the immune system just waking up? ( Read Nancy Gregg's latest article )

And since this thread is so keen on proverbs, how about this : "what doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger."

In other words, may the time come when the mess is sorted out ( what will be a LOT of work, I admit ), couldn't this leave American democracy stronger than before? And the Bush era would be an era in the history books as something that was overcome like the McCarthy era...

Victor


PS : After all, the republicons were lucky not only that 9/11 happened but also that the public trusted the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time too much. Otherwise, the Enron scandal unfolding in 2001 might have broken the ape's neck already.

PPS : in case I err, is there anything good the republicons have done while they were in office since WWII? I just don't know. I mean, the policies that lead the world here, namely to beef up saddam or bin laden against Iran or the Soviets were all republicon ideas, right?! Rumsfeld might know...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
resist_vote on paper Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
44. There is still a chance - Time to go demo!
Hi there from Germany!

I have just found some videos from Manchester, GB, where thousands of people marched for peace, and wanted to share them with you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk1T08VgwsE

I think, something like this is the only chance we have. We must unite peaceful and find a sign that shows " No, not with me! " But we can't easily unite, because the media does not broadcast this subject, because they are already owned and controlled by the "elites".

I would like to introduce you to my idea of an ideal sign for global united peace marcher:
Its international, its my own creation and its free for everyone to use as long as you use it for the goal of peace.
By publishing it here today, on the first of October, I can prove that its my design, nobody should dare trying to get the alone rights of it or abuse it. Its free, and should stay this way!



The .eu points to my homepage, where I want to explain the danger we are in, the idea and set links to related websites.
My HP is not uploaded yet, but will be ready to go online in the next days.

BTW What do you think, are the fences at the canadian and mexican boarders for? Keep THEM out or keep YOU in?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
45. Great post. Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
46. Tritt versetzung
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
47. Isn't that what Sandy Hypocrite O'Connor said recently?
Something about resisting these beginnings to avoid their ends?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
48. oh wow...
:kick: :kick: :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Oct 17th 2019, 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC