Why Woodward Matters

[H2O Man]

In the discussion that followed my OP "544 Camp Street," one of my favorite DUers asked me why I used a known conservative author (Bill Gertz) as a source? That's a good question, and one that might be worth looking at closer at a time when, as the November elections draw near, the media is reporting on the NIE and on Bob Woodward's new book. This morning, I thought it would be interesting to discuss why Woodward's "State of Denial" could be an important book.

I do not trust Bob Woodward. I have always found Carl Bernstein to be more talented a writer, more honest an individual, and more likeable a person. But I have bought and read a number of Woodward's books, even when I consider significant parts of his books less than truthful. While his work may not be as cheesey as the recent ABC-Disney "docu-drama," I am not comfortable with the description of "non-fiction" for some of the things he writes. Perhaps the most honest description of himself is found in the attributes he applies to Mark Felt in the beginning of chapter 16 of "The Secret Man": Woodward examines a Freudian concept of personality as "really not the resolution of an individual's various impulses but rather an organization of those impulses." He notes that few people knew the "real" Mark Felt, because of his professional organization of his personality, and questions the effect of living in such a structured identity for decades.

In that sense, I think it is worth questioning what in Woodward's make-up results in things like his connection to the Plame scandal, or his infamous interview with a CIA director, or his 1977 front page story linking Ted Shackley to Edwin Wilson. (Older DUers will remember Woodward's connections with Bobby Ray Inman.) More, people should consider Woodward's curious relationship with Felt, the entire "Deep Throat" episode, and also the first two books Bob had authored about the Bush administration. In that context, we should consider his new book.

It comes out at an interesting time. But, considering that he isn't a source I trust, why is the book potentially important for progressive democrats in the weeks before the election? I have noted several times on DU that in every election, there are 3 main groups: <1> those who always vote for you; <2> those who always vote against you; and <3> the "undecided" who decide every close election. In terms of democrats versus republicans, we are all aware of co-workers, friends and family members who will definitely vote one way or the other. They can be fun to chat with, but a discussion on something like the Iraq war isn't going to change their opinion or their ballet. We might, for the sake of this discussion, identify them as falling into one of two "camps": in discussion and debates on Iraq, they will either quote reports from Keith Olbermann's Countdown, or Bill O'Reilly's Factor.

The people from the "undecided" group #3 may, at various times, watch both Countdown and The Factor. And so, in order to be able to best communicate with these people, it is important that we are able to speak the language that they understand. If I were to quote a book or article by James Bamford or Sy Hersch, a lot of group #3 people are going to consider my point as being from the left. But if I am able to quote a Woodward book or article, it is considered in a different light. And if there is a group of people from all three groups debating the war in Iraq, I will be best prepared if I can use Bamford, Hersch, and Woodward.

One of the most important parts of the new book, I believe, will be information being reported in the New York Daily News (9-29) that shows that CIA Director Tenet and his top advisor Cofer Black went to Condi Rice on July 10, 2001, with a strong warning about a possible al Qaeda attack and a very real chance to kill Usama bin Laden. (See link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/456839p-384345c.html

Coming after Bill Clinton's debate with the Fox News' lap dog, and the NIE, this information could be a deciding factor in convincing group #3 voters that the republican party in general, and the administration in particular, is not capable of protecting this country. For that reason, I will be placing an order for a copy of the book later today. I'm thinking that if even a few of us buy and read the book, we can share the highlights here on DU. That way, we can reap the potential benefits of the book, without significantly increasing sales. Make sense?

[trumad]

1. I thought I was one of your favorite DU'ers?

;-)

Excellent post BTW.

[Demit]

2. If it's so wonderful, I might check it out of the library.

No offense, but you sound like his agent. Or an employee of his publisher's. Suggesting that we buy it. No thanks. No sale.

[H2O Man]

3. I'm guessing that

reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. But, if it will make you happy: yes, I'm Mark Felt.

[Binka]

4. Holy Shit I Just Burst Out Laughing

And I have been so depressed I have not laughed in weeks Patrick. Thank you so much friend!

[H2O Man]

9. Hello, Binka!

I am pleased to be able to make you laugh. Perhaps this thread will offer more opportunities.

[Demit]

10. You're kidding right? You didn't know I meant Woodward's book agent?

You misread that as undercover/secret agent? Good grief.

[H2O Man]

11. No, I didn't. n/t

[Binka]

15. This Has Gotten Even Better. Hey Secret Agent Man....n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

22. LOL!

Now I've got that song in my mind. :)

[stop the bleeding]

45. me as well

just waiting for them(secret agents) to show up to my door and list me as "an enemy combatant"


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2258196

[H2O Man]

46. Careful moving

any flowerpots on your balcony. Could be sending the wrong signal.

[CatWoman]

57. LOL

ME TOO!!!

:rofl:

[cynatnite]

12. I knew it!

:rofl:

[babylonsister]

5. Makes perfect sense, H2O Man. I'm curious to

hear how Woodward justifies his previous opinions of the * white house with his supposed swing in this book. And I find the timing potentially great if the book is as scathing as reported. I'll be watching '60 Minutes' on Sunday to hear this interview.

[H2O Man]

32. I've read a few

reviews, and it sounds like Woodward paints the administration as keeping the truth about the horrors of the war from the American public, and Bush as being incapable of recognizing what a mess he has created. The part about Rice being non-responsive to the push to take advantage of a very real opportunity to kill bin Laden is huge in and of itself.

I find it curious that much of this is coming outat a time when there are reports that a war against Iran is becoming more likely. The 9-25 TIME has an article "What War With Iran Would Look Like." I may be wrong, but I think there may be some connection between the administration's position on attacking Iran, and the reports that reveal their incompetence.

[madame defarge]

6. Yes, it does make sense...

I've recently had many interesting conversations with those in category #3. They are uncertain, they are questioning all that's happening, they are looking for reasons to vote for the best person. We do have to be able to communicate with them using sources they value & trust, even if we have not trusted those sources ourselves in the past.

That's what makes us progressives; we understand that people can change & admit their mistakes, & we're willing at least listen & give them a chance.

[Me.]

7. My First Thought On Hearing About This Book

was why this, why now? Given his seeming love affair with the * administration why would he decide to expose them in this way and have such a big roll-out for it? Has he been playing a roll? Who is he really setting up? And you're absolutely, dead on, right on how this book can have a positive effect. Whether we like him or not (not) he is a big name that will garner all the attention he is already getting and, because of his swanning around with the neocons, it will hard for them to label this a partisan effort.

*shadow government*

[capi888]

13. I wondered the same thing Me!

Why now, and has he been cozy with the administration to set them up, while planning to hit them where it hurts at the appropiate time. After all, he exposed Nixon, with the help of an insider "deep throat" and I always wondered WHY he all of a sudden was cozy with the R WH!!! Now I know, and so do they!!! Hope the gang in the WH is shaking in their boots...!!

[Me.]

16. It Is Intriguing

Whether it was a set up or he feels guilty, as FLD5 says, it works for us. I also wonder why, after the six years drought, so much info is coming out, NIE etc.? Who has this admin scared with their behavior that is was finally decided that enough was enough? And why, was he allowed in, in the first place? I don't think it's any secret that right from 2000, those of us here could tell how it was going to be and play out. It was why DU was started. And as far as KO goes, it would be my guess that he has been "encouraged" in his recent commentaries, and heaven help us, even Tweety has been on fire. Why now?

*shadow government*

[capi888]

20. Just Remembering how Woodward and Bernstien

They were very devious (in a good way) with getting the information about the Nixon fiasco. They held the idenity secret for many years, and we didn't know about Mark Felt until he admitted he was deep throat. I think that Woodward, has set up the WH, outsmarted them, (writing the first 2 books) in their favor, leak in Plame case kept secret, for a cause. I could be trying see a silver lining, but being against the Admin Policies and had the ability to set them up, I WOULD! Then go for the kill. I don't doubt for a minute that Woodward loves his country, and wants to see our Democracy back...but had to play the game to get trust, and with this bunch it is not easy...Just my 2 cents, but have thought about it alot, wondering WHY is this guy budding up with this bunch all of a sudden...

[Coexist]

14. Maybe shifting sands beneath his feet...

maybe guilt at what he helped create.

Either way, I think I will read this book.

[capi888]

8. Makes sense H20 !!!

Thanks for posting a sensible analogy of what is needed to help convince those riding the fence!

[KharmaTrain]

17. Perception is the Media Game

I'm glad to see you posted on the topic considering your investigating about Woodward's role in the Plame mess.

Maybe it can be easily summed up that Woodward's career has always revolved around him being witness to some very unique moments. Be it on Bill Casey's deathbed or running around the White House in the days before the invasion...he always has that one tibit that gets the buzz and with it his "credibility". So, yes, this is a very big deal as those who just recognize the name and see this tidbit will come away with a negative impression of this regime and its disengenuous war.

It's also part of the changing climate. Woodie's seeing the polls constantly showing how unpopular this war and his buddy boooosh is...and how quickly books that bash this regime are getting both PR and sales. He's an opportunist who sees this book as a chance not only to be on the "forefront" of the boooosh bashers, but to make some of us forget how compromised he really is. It's all perception and this is where the rubber hits the road.

We're in the final stretches of what is one of the most polarized and defining mid-term elections in my lifetime...even more so than '94. The abuses and largess of the Repugnicans are getting so huge and hard to manage that just its own inertia is making the party and this regime collapse. Whether this collapse happens on Nov. 7th or shortly thereafter, the corruption and ineptness of this regime are so widespread that the only thing holding it back is a compliant corporate and beltway media that was whipped into submission. But unlike '02 and '04, the crap has backed up so bad...the stench is so strong, fewer people can hold their noses and let this crap go on. They tuning off or getting mad or both...Woodward can accelerate that perception and hasten this regime's implosion.

Woodard's agenda is Woodward...and if he does have any loyalty, it's to his place as a "media superstar". His rep was hurt with the Plame situation and I see this as his payback.

Cheers...

[H2O Man]

18. I remember when

John Dean's book "Worse Than Watergate" first came out. He appeared on Hannity & Colmes, and Sean Hannity told Dean that he felt that he betrayed the conservatives by writing that book. Within a few weeks, the angry conservatives were describing Dean as someone who had been disgraced by Watergate, in an effort to compromise his message.

While I find John Dean a person worthy of respect today, and cannot say the same about Woodward, I will be curious to see if Hannity & Co express that same sense of betrayal by this book.

[KharmaTrain]

28. They Bring Up Watergate...Woodward Was A Judas

The Right Wing still blames Woodward for bringing down Nixon...and then went into a tizzy with his Casey revelations that led to a real shitstorm in the Raygun years. These elephants have long memories. While Dean may have sold out, it was Woodward to pushed the story and came out as the Robert Redford hero.

I developed respect for Dean back during Watergate. I listened to the Ervin hearing every day when I was working and thought how much guts it took for this guy to get up and spill all that he did. Except for Paul O'Neill (and that's said in the loosest of terms), I don't see anyone associated with this regime who comes even close to opening up the "cancer" that was the Nixon regime like he did.

I also really enjoyed his take during the Clinton inquisition. He's from the old East Coast Repugnican club that was shoved under the bus with the Southern Strategy in '68.

Woodward plays the CW game that when you piss off both sides that somehow you're being fair. I expect that's how he'll play this thing and will take the right wing outrage all the way to the bank.

Cheers...

[Me.]

30. As For Revenge

I recently read where Hyde said the Clinton impeachment was revenge for Nixon

*shadow government*

[mod mom]

19. Excuse my confusion here, but knowing his background w naval intelligence,

couldn't this be a scheme by the shadow puppeteers to dump bush (he really is so unpopular around the world and will prevent them from achieving their goals) while still setting up the next chieftan? I know Clinton is well liked and came out fighting in the recent interview, but I have worried that they were planning to elevate Hiliary. While Clinton has done much good, and I applaud his new initiative, he also played into the hands of the corporations and screwed many in the middle class with NAFTA. Hiliary certainly has been hawkish in terms of Iraq and the ME.

H20man-I interested to hear if you have concerns about the Clintons. Lately, everything seems so calculated-like a master plan.

Also, years ago I dated a guy whose father was a judge alongside Bob Woodward's father. These were very staunch Republican families. I know people can divert from their up-bringing but to this day I am surprised by devoted old money republicans around where I live, who still support the party despite what is going on. (very educated people-no less)

[H2O Man]

24. I think that

Mr. Woodward is doing something similar today to what he did decades ago. And likely for the same reasons.

It's interesting to speculate on the range of reasons that Nixon was removed from office. I think that one could safely say that those we call "Deep Throat" had different motivation than, say, the anti-war protestors from the progressive left, for wanting Nixon out of office.

I think that a potential danger of things such as the NIE, etc, is that they merely make the case that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are prosecuting the war badly. I think that we need to be very aware of a national campaign, including some who may appear to be democrats, to propose that we really need to continue the war effort -- just differently. Kind of like making the Lieberman stance seem more realistic than the Lamont stance.

What we need, in my opinion, is to move away from the thinking that proposes that we simply need to fine-tune our violence, in order to bring peace. And I think that many of the democrats who will be running in '08 will be taking that stance. Progressive democrats need to unite with the wider range of anti-war forces, and empower the true anti-war candidates.

[KoKo]

31. Bush has served his purpose it seems so...

time to take him down little by little? :shrug:

I wonder what the motives for taking Nixon down were. It seems to simplistic to think it was just Mark Felt's annoyance that he didn't get a promotion that turned him into Deep Throat. Deep Throat get's the credit but I still think there were more folks working against Nixon behind the scenes who aren't mentioned for a reason.

Why would those "others" (if my suspicion could have any truth to it) have wanted to take Nixon down? :shrug:

[mod mom]

33. I thought there were some who think Felt was NOT deep throat, but that it

was HW. Am I mistaken?

Regardless...it appears to go back to the shadows.

[H2O Man]

34. The theory that

Mark Felt was a lone, disgruntled employee doesn't hold up to even a casual examination. It would have been impossible, for example, for Felt to have put a notation on Woodward's paper, or keep track of the flower pot on his window.

Some people have made an interesting case that some right-wing forces were opposed to Nixon's attempts to end the US war in Vietnam, and to open relations with China.

[hang a left]

38. A calculated master plan

That is my gut feeling as well. Woodward doesn't work for Bushco he works for their bosses. Everything is very well orchestrated and look at what is in our faces 24/7 now. Terror!! Keeping America safe!! National Security!! The whole ordeal is "catapulting the propaganda", if you ask me. Also paving the way for our new selected leader.

And I know, no one asked.

[catzies]

54. "Woodward doesn't work for Bushco he works for their bosses."

Worth repeating.

Reminds of a quote I read that is attributed to Clinton but can't verify:

"There is a government within the government and I am not in charge."

I also nod in agreement with your assesment that this is all part of "...paving the way for our new selected leader."

Things that make you go hmmmmmm...

[bridgit]

21. sure, it makes sense; but in the time it took me to read it bush has...

run his litany of the 'positive' reasons why their torture plan is a groovy idea Live & coast to coast, closing that segment with his tired old "we're gonna get usama, and bring you to justice" i will note that his bullshit texas drawl is thicker today and it is not "for some reason", it is imo in that that is a mechanism of his he employs when ankle deep & rising in his own bullshit nevertheless...

they are winning the moment on 'concise' alone, bullshit though it may be i.e. = new words "you do not create terrorism by fighting terrorism", be watching for those cause they do read the left and have already developed a 'concise' in the span of less than a handful of mere hours

and up come the strains, truly the strains of: 'hail to the chief' x(

[H2O Man]

26. I had to leave

the room while he was on tv. Normally, I can watch him. But I couldn't today.

[peekaloo]

23. Curious that the corporate media are using that quote about

Bu$h forging ahead in Iraq even if he's only got Pickles and Barney to back him up. Where they once promoted Bu$h's "strength and determination" that quote makes him seem insane. (rightly so imho).

Woody's a weasel.


Thanks for this post.

[H2O Man]

27. It's a strange quote.

Maybe it is intended to make George sound folksy. I think it shows that he is feeling a bit of the isolation that another president felt, 30 some years ago.

I have a relative who is a talented young journalist. She has taught at a top university, and worked for a few good papers and magazines on both the east and west coast. I enjoy discussing "current events" with her. For too long, she thought Judith Miller was taking a noble stance in the Plame scandal. She didn't believe me -- at first -- when I told her Miller was scum. That changed when Miller did her thing upon leaving her cell.

My relative has also had some contact with Woodward. I have told her that he is no more trustworthy than Judith. When she says she doesn't agree with me, I tell her than in time, she will.

[Clark2008]

25. Slight flaw in your argument: most people think Woodward

is liberal because they think ALL reporters/editors/media are liberal since the corporate conservative media keeps telling them that.

I mean, go ahead and quote him. He does have respect from a lot of people, but most people think he's liberal (which, of course, he's not).

[Beetwasher]

29. I've Always Found More Value In Woodwards Books

In the empty spaces in between the words and in the things he doesn't say. :evilgrin:

I'm serious though.

[Straight Shooter]

35. Maybe I'll get the book ...

But I look to you, H20Man, to discern the important highlights. I don't think I have the political knowhow to understand what is a relevant highlight and what isn't.

I don't trust Woodward. He's always playing an angle, he's always got a deeply hidden agenda. He also has bush's ear.

[bigbrother05]

36. K&R

[H2O Man]

37. On MSNBC (noon)

There is going to be a press conference, with democratic senators using Woodward's book to focus attention on Iraq. Also, Kerry has already made a statement about it.

Interesting. Especially the republican puppies yelping about it now. "It's suspect," etc.

[KoKo]

41. Sad....

Dem Senators have to use Woodward's book to make a case on Iraq? What have we come to?

It does verify that he's useful, though. I just wish Dems didn't have to hide behind his shadow. Maybe some independents will crossover because of the attention. So many associate Woodward with bringing down Nixon, that I wonder if the Press Conference won't just bring more wrath from the RWingers about those "liberal Dems" who want to impeach Bush and using Woodward to do it.

[H2O Man]

44. I agree.

The democrats should be taking the lead, not being in a position where Woodward is providing their talking points.

I live in a conservative republican part of rural, upstate New York. I called the small local bookstore earlier today. My friend said she already has a box of Woodward's books, but the box has a "do not open until Tuesday" sign taped on it. I reserved the second to the last copy that she has.

Now, there are plenty of good democrats around here. And a nice group of Greens. But I'm guessing that some republicans are likely buying the book, too.

[illinoisprogressive]

39. Some is due to not doing Punditry

This morning on Cspan they had on Jennifer Senior and she was saying how Woodward has access no one else has. But, she also was saying something that gave the impression some of his problems are due to taking down what he hears and not doing punditry. She was mentioning in the first book the people interviewed were probably very closed lipped. As the years and books go on they get more comfortable with him, more critical of the stuff going on in the white house and therefore give away most secrets.
This seems to be a plausible reason for the last book being more critical. I'm not excusing him just putting forth some of the reasons. I do agree that Bernstien was the better writer of the two and more engaging.

[Me.]

42. Welcome

*shadow government*

[bigtree]

40. I'll keep my head down on this

I agree that every little bit helps, but this man . . . he seems to be a front for legitimizing something yet unreported in his books which contradicts the news of the day, and facts accepted as true become murky alongside his accounts. Once you accept something from him the rest of his BS comes with it. But, we'll see . . .

[H2O Man]

43. I think we should

use the same care in handling Woodward that we would use in handling any other rattle snake. Yet the information about Tenet and Black approaching Rice about al Qaeda, and an opportunity to kill bin Laden, is of very real potential value. I also am pleased to see the national discussion re-focused on Iraq.

[H2O Man]

47. The Woodward book

has brought a lot of media attention back to the war in Iraq. And that helps democrats ....

[Laurab]

48. May I call you Mark????

Sorry, I'm still laughing at that one...

I've read most of Woodward's books, as well - he seems to have one thing a lot of dems don't have - access. Why he has had access, I don't know. There have been some not-so-complimentary things about bush in his books - well, actually just facts, I guess, yet one of them was recommended on the repugs reading list prior to the last election.

I don't trust Woodward, but he does seem to have had unusually good access to people no one else can get close to. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but it was for "Plan of Attack" and "Bush at War". Unprecedented access to the pResident himself. I THINK he's the one who wrote that bush pumped his fist and said "feels good" at the start of the war? I remember reading that and thinking "and they RECOMMEND this book?"

I think first and foremost, Bob Woodward is out for Bob Woodward. If he's critical of the administration, I'm a little surprised - maybe he's lost his access, maybe he's found his conscience, or maybe he's just finished writing books about this mess of an administration.

I think you're quite right though. His book won't be looked at as being written by a liberal. It should be interesting - much more so if he's actually critical of the administration, or even just truthful. Just truthful would be good enough. I'll be ordering the book as well - I just ordered two others today, but next week, that one will be on my list. Thanks for the heads up, Mr. Felt!

[seemslikeadream]

49. Condi, Tenet, Black meeting didn't make it in the 9/11 Report

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x121354

[H2O Man]

50. Well .....

isn't that special? Just makes you shake your head.

I see Chris Matthews on the Saturday morning MSNBC news shows. He said Woodward's book is going straight to #1, and will remain strong in that position until after the election. He said it documents that Bush has purposely mislead the American public he is supposed to be "protecting," and that the information in the book will do significant damage to the administration.

[seemslikeadream]

51. I know what's been said about Woodward

but there is that old saying

Catch more bees with honey

and

Give 'em enough rope


:shrug:

oh yes georgie I am your friend you can trust me

[H2O Man]

56. Today is Saturday ....

and the White House just issued a "5 Point" response to Woodward's book. That is really strange.

[Spazito]

52. Excellent OP

I, too, don't trust Woodward as far as I could throw him and, trust me, that isn't far at all. He is an opportunist, that is his consistency and why he can be useful to either side depending on the book, the content the timing and the message he is directed to impart.

It seems, in this case, if reports on the content of his latest book are accurate, the "powers that be" want the message sent out that the bush cabal is dysfunctional, incompetent, etc, and that message is to be passed in time to possibly affect the midterms.

I feel about Woodward the same way I feel about spiders, they give me the creeps but they are useful in catching bugs. The only difference is that spiders always catch bugs while Woodward is much more selective, lol.

[H2O Man]

55. I can remember

Malcolm X saying that he could tell how well he was doing, by how loud his enemies were in their reactions to him. I find it amazing that the White House has just issued a "5 point" response to Woodward's book. That shows how important they recognize this book is.

[CatWoman]

58. there's a story in LBN

in which Card has acknowledged the truthfullness where he is concerned in Woodward's book.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2537546

[Imagevision]

53. Why Woodward Matters? - thank you H2O Man - Bush in denail!