Senate Hearings S3930 (Kennedy/ Rockefeller/Byrd Amends) -- THREAD 6

[CornField]

Thread 1 Senate hearings on Military hearings of detaines Official thread -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2242459&mesg_id=2242459

Senate hearings on S3930 (Specter-Leahy Amend) -- THREAD 2 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2243468&mesg_id=2243468

Senate hearings on S3930 (Specter Amend -- FAILED) -- THREAD 3 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2243963&mesg_id=2243963

Senate Hearings on Torture Bill (debating Rockefeller Amend) -- THREAD 4 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2244475&mesg_id=2244475

Senate Hearings on Torture Bill (Kennedy & Rockefeller Amends) -- THREAD 5 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2245155&mesg_id=2245155

[blogslut]

1. I'll repeat

How can they deny a sundown?

The GOP IS INSANE

[BelgianMadCow]

2. me too then : cause they plan to stay in power forever

otherwise, it makes no sense at all.

[bullimiami]

5. they have gone rabid. there is no cure.

[KoKo]

9. I just don't see how a Sunset Amendment changes anything...unless

there's some "loophole" that is getting Warner upset. Warner says this is going to be a VERY LONG WAR... Disgusting.

There must be something in the "Sunset" that allows that bill to be changed or why would Warner freak out. Of course, Repugs never give an inch so he could just be bloviating the "take no prisoners" line that they love.

[CornField]

17. "Sunsetting" a bill just mandates an automatic review date by Congress

That is, sunsetting forces the issue back to the table whether or not those in power at the time want to discuss it.

[DearAbby]

59. There is no statue of limitations to war crimes?

If this were to sunset, would they be held responsible to war crimes at a later date?

[CornField]

3. Warner yields the floor to Byrd -- who is now thanking Obama

[underpants]

8. Byrd given unlimited time

[LSK]

4. Byrd is back, thanking Obama

[MrCoffee]

6. Did Warner vitiate the debate schedule?

[BelgianMadCow]

7. Byrd asks to read for the THIRD time the text of the amendment

BOING

[BelgianMadCow]

14. !!! Warner : "this war against the people we GENERICALLY call terrorists

what is that supposed to mean. More extrapolating to leftists and antiglobalists?

[Lasher]

10. Where do I apply for certification as a CSPAN geek?

I've got practical experience that could be considered.

[BelgianMadCow]

18. ask LSK I think

:-)

The appointment has a sunset clause though.

[LSK]

20. lol

[Lasher]

35. LOL, heh heh.

So I guess LSK is the Geek Pro Tempore, right?

Oooo, check it out the Lion of the Senate is back up.

[MrCoffee]

11. Warner is dead wrong.

If the sunset goes into effect, it tells terrorists that if they don't get caught before the sunset date, they get off scot free.

[The Witch]

12. If he's so worried about what the terrorists think of the sunset provision

why isn't he worried about what they'll think of the parts where we say waterboarding is OK?!

[CornField]

21. That's the thing: If I'm willing to strap a bomb to my chest, I doubt

I'll give a frog's ass about the U.S.'s torture policy if I'm caught. The truth is that this bill -- and the torture we currently employ -- don't matter one iota to "the terrorists." They are important because of OUR STANDING IN THE EYES OF THE OTHER LAW-ABIDING PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

[Solly Mack]

13. Protecting America means protecting her laws

it means not doing the horrible - especially in the worst of times...of eroding those laws.

by changing our laws government is saying to us...America only works in the best of time but when faced with a crisis, America resorts to the thinking of tyrants and that screams America doesn't really work

The nature of our laws are to protect the innocent by giving the suspected guilty full and complete due process....even when that means the guilty walk free...because we believe it is better for a guilty person to walk than it is for a single innocent person to ever hang



Warner is angering me greatly.

[buddhamama]

15. Bush is the world's bin Laden

Warner :mad:

[Cameron27]

16. Oh don't vote for sunset..

a snide challenge for impeachment?

[Solly Mack]

19. The lie that Bush hasn't already shown he will break and abuse the law

being put forth by Warner in his argument against sunset is criminal

by saying "If this president...ever does that"

Bush already has...and we already know he will



----
Please don't take that for support of the sunset clause..for I don't support it

simply because I support NOTHING about this bill...nothing

this bill is wrong

and nothing mitigates that fact

pretending it's ok to pass the bill for 5 years and eradictae due process is still eradicating due process...and remember

power never yields anything willingly

once power gains and grows bigger...it's harder to take power back

[BelgianMadCow]

22. Pubs have 80 mins left, Dems some 30

sucks bigtime - gonna get a lot of repubs now I fear

[BelgianMadCow]

30. Kennedy amendment : no abusive interrogation of AMERICANS captured

during the war.

he is trying to keep americans from being tortured. He must not have KBR stock (the US detention camp builders). Sends a fine message in and of itself.

[MrCoffee]

23. Question...Do the Dems still have time in debate on the bill itself?

i'm sure you know why i'm asking.

[Lasher]

24. Know why repukes are so opposed to this 5 year sunset clause?

If the law sunsets, wouldn't Junior's get-out-of-jail-free card also expire?

[MrCoffee]

27. According to Warner, it tells the terrorists that they have a...

"statute of limitations" wherein if they don't get caught before the sunset, they don't get prosecuted.

:wtf:

[Efilroft Sul]

54. Warner and company are worried more about hypotheticals than...

...what this nation is indeed becoming.

God help us win back Democratic majorities in both houses in November. And may We the People be so bold afterward as to hold our own Democrats responsible for passing pro-torture legislation.

[EnfantTerrible]

25. Gee

You mean we'll only throw away the Bill Of Rights and turn overtly Fascist for 5 years instead of forever? Well... okay then. Sign me up!

What a fucking joke... 'cept it just aint the least bit funny.

[Solly Mack]

28. exactly!!

nothing about any of this is good or accecptable

[LSK]

26. Text of Kennedy Amendment (from earlier in the threads)

On page 83, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following:

(2) PROTECTION OF UNITED STATES PERSONS.--The Secretary of State shall notify other parties to the Geneva Conventions that--

(A) the United States has historically interpreted the law of war and the Geneva Conventions, including in particular common Article 3, to prohibit a wide variety of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of members of the United States Armed Forces and United States persons;

(B) during and following previous armed conflicts, the United States Government has prosecuted persons for engaging in cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, including the use of waterboarding techniques, stress positions, including prolonged standing, the use of extreme temperatures, beatings, sleep deprivation, and other similar acts;

(C) this Act and the amendments made by this Act preserve the capacity of the United States to prosecute nationals of enemy powers for engaging in acts against members of the United States Armed Forces and United States persons that have been prosecuted by the United States as war crimes in the past; and

(D) should any United States person be subjected to the following acts, without limitation, under circumstances in which the Geneva Conventions are applicable, the United States would consider such acts to constitute punishable offenses under common Article 3 and would act accordingly: forcing the person to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; applying beatings, electric shocks, burns, or other forms of physical pain to the person; waterboarding the person; using dogs on the person; inducing hypothermia or heat injury in the person; conducting a mock execution of the person; and depriving the person of necessary food, water, or medical care.

[MrCoffee]

29. Warner - Please don't hate us for rejecting Kennedy's amendment.

[CornField]

31. Kennedy back up -- Burden to state department?

[CornField]

36. So... Kennedy has his own special tone in dealing with Warner. LOL!

He's basically bouncing his voice off the walls as he questions Warner's reading of his amendment which (in his words) "PROTECTS AMERICANS"

[rodeodance]

32. Thansk CORNfield---i had to leave a while

[rodeodance]

33. Dems agreed NOT to filly this bill:

Thu Sep-28-06 01:58 PM
Original message
Senate Nears Final Vote on Detainee Bill

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/washington/29detaincn...

WASHINGTON, Sept. 28 — The Senate today rejected an amendment to a bill creating a new system for interrogating and trying terror suspects that would have guaranteed such suspects access to the courts to challenge their imprisonment.

The vote was 51 to 48 against the amendment, which was offered by the Republican and Democratic leaders of the Judiciary Committee, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont. The action set the stage for final passage of the bill, which was approved on Wednesday by the House of Representatives.

The bill’s ultimate passage was assured on Wednesday when Democrats agreed to forgo a filibuster in return for consideration of the amendment. Any changes in the Senate bill, however, would have made it impossible for Republican leaders to meet their goal of sending the bill to the White House before adjourning on Friday to hit the campaign trail.

Underscoring the political stakes involved, White House spokesman Tony Snow said today that President Bush will emphasize Democratic opposition to the bill in campaign appearances.

more...

[rodeodance]

40. here-Snow said Bush will empasize Dem OPPOSITION on the stump!

...Underscoring the political stakes involved, White House spokesman Tony Snow said today that President Bush will emphasize Democratic opposition to the bill in campaign appearances.

[mmonk]

44. They will do that whether dems stop it or not.

[LSK]

41. i will not believe it until i see it

[BelgianMadCow]

55. ditto that

there is fire in the Dems

[importDavid]

42. Screw them.

Filibuster it.

Screw the deal.

Make them stay.

[blogslut]

34. whoa Teddy

my my

[Cameron27]

38. Whoaaa yessss!!!!!!!!!

[LSK]

37. Kennedy is pissed!

[BelgianMadCow]

39. Kennedy on FIRE : my amendment protects AMERICANS!

He is destroying them. Intellectually of course.

[rodeodance]

43. lots of little people with little minds who want this bill

[blogslut]

45. BITE ME WARNER

You put the word "shall" in the amendment...what an ass. Whiny damned baby.

[CornField]

46. WTF?!?! Congress cannot direct the executive branch to fulfill a duty?

Is that what Warner is saying?

[Marie26]

60. It's nuts

They do that ALL the time. That's what laws do! What's the real reason he's opposing this?

[LSK]

47. WARNER: THE SENATE MAKES THE LAWS

THE PRESIDENT ENFORCES THE LAWS

[BelgianMadCow]

48. Warner rebuttal attempt

Saying Kennedy, by ordering the State dept to inform other countries what the US thinks unacceptable is a breach of separation of power.

He has a logical point but it ir soooo low. If that's all he's got.

Now he wants to proceed to the vote. Chicken!!!!

[CornField]

51. I can't believe that's the only thing he could pull out of his ass

Congress has the right to set the law. By definition, the law is the rules/policies by which our nation is governed.

[LSK]

49. Yahs and Nahs on all remaining amendments??

[LSK]

50. Quorum, they are figuring out what to do

I think Kennedy was just pissed and asked for votes early.

[BelgianMadCow]

52. Yeah Warner did a time trick again as well - did you catch it?

yesterday you said this is just a way to bide time

[CornField]

56. He asked his remaining amendment debate time be move to the bill

The request was granted.

[LSK]

58. yes so this time does not count against any debate time

[CornField]

53. yes -- should be interesting

[Lasher]

57. Did I just attend an african-american baptist church service?

That's what I feel like when I watch one of Kennedy's best speeches. Amen! Yes!

[MrCoffee]

61. Do the Dems have any debate time left on the bill itself?

[MrCoffee]

62. AAAGGHGHH! i just went totally deaf...thank you C-SPAN

[rodeodance]

65. rather LOUD music playing.

[CornField]

63. I hate it when they start with the flutes...

[countryjake]

66. They should be playing William Tell Overture for this interlude!

[rodeodance]

70. i love flutes, but softly playing would be nice

[BelgianMadCow]

72. Saxby Chambliss, I am forgetting your name as I type

I commend the president...

nuff said

[BelgianMadCow]

64. While many a Duer listens to the interludium : what do y'all think so far?

For me, the dem amendments not only rock but are crafted in a manner of intelligent ways that if nothing else, make naysayers look really bad and provides ammo to counter the surefire "dem weak on natl security" spin theme.

Besides, they were on fire.

I don't know about a filibuster. The atmosphere is right, but can it still be done ?

[LSK]

67. back, discussing time remaining

[Cameron27]

68. Crap, Chambliss up

[MrCoffee]

69. Saxby rises in support of giving * a reacharound.

[CornField]

71. Sen. Chambliss is dutifully wagging his tongue across Bush's butt now

[BelgianMadCow]

74. I cannot see his head, actually

[CornField]

83. Brings a whole new meaning to "old fart" doesn't it?

:)

[Tinksrival]

90. Hi, I just got home from work. Trying to catch up.

I only have c-span 1. Are you all on c-span 2? All I see is congress trying to pass Gyno cancer month.

I e-mailed Durbin and Obama last night. Is it to late to do anything more?

Thanks Cornfield

[MrCoffee]

95. c-span 2 is carrying the senate debate.

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

there are several threads to call Dems and encourage the filibuster.

[Tinksrival]

103. Thanks MrCoffee

I'll call Obama. He is not as reliable as Durbin is.

[MrCoffee]

73. How does the "changing nature of war" justify scrapping the constitution?

[BelgianMadCow]

75. Chambliss "continue the program to ensure we continue to receive critical

info"

Hown many terrorist attacks have been avoided through the illegal rendition and torture again?
How many terrorists convicted?

[gully]

84. WTF, "critical info" has been received?

LIARS!

[countryjake]

77. Chambliss thinks we need to stoop to the enemy level..Beheading?

[Marie26]

78. blahblahblah

He really is commending the president alot, isn't he? And Mr. Saxby Chambliss is so knowledgeable about the nature of war - he's never served, of course, but he did attack Max Cleland, an war veteran amputee, for not being committed enough to national security.

[CornField]

79. Before we fought nation against nation

so, if you tortured your enemies soldiers, it would no doubt be brought back to the UN or other international body for investigation. This "war on terror" is new. First, it is never-ending (much like the 'war on drugs'). Second, it isn't a war against another government entity, but against individual people who act in ways contrary to international laws. The difference is that when we torture these individuals, there is no oversight, except that which we place on ourselves. If we can delude the debate enough to remove torture restrictions in relation to our own laws/policies, our government will not be accountable to anyone -- not the other nations, not the UN, not NATO and, most importantly, not to the American people.

[MrCoffee]

76. Saxby's argument - Don't make us do more work. We're tired.

[MrCoffee]

80. Lindsey Graham gets 15 minutes...kill me now.

[BelgianMadCow]

82. only if you reciprocate

[Marie26]

86. Come on, Graham

He was fighting this, once.

[BelgianMadCow]

81. 15 mins of Graham

uh oh

[ChiciB1]

85. Repukes Want To Go Home!!

Words fail me but what I'm thinking CAN'T be put into words!!!

I'm turning off C-Span and THIS WHOLE sham taking place!

[Cameron27]

89. They're trying to cover bush's ass

[rodeodance]

93. this bill is so Blantantly Political-----yet the WH/repugs clap themselves

on the back as heros for saving americans. sickening

[MrCoffee]

87. Graham is not making the slightest bit of sense.

The Geneva Conventions helped put pressure on the NVA to stop torturing John McCain, so let's ignore the Geneva Conventions??

[CornField]

88. No, Lindsey, you got it right the first time... "unconstitutional"

[Marie26]

Something's off with him

He's nervous, shifting feet, won't look up. He doesn't believe what he's saying.

[MrCoffee]

96. He's filming a tv commercial.

[Deb]

100. He rocks himself, like a baby

whenever he's doing something wrong. Drives me nuts, he did the same thing during the Clinton impeachment. Wish the squirt would just lay down in the fetal position.

[Marie26]

94. ....

[gumby]

91. Does 'Lil Lindsey ALWAYS have to do that

'I'm such a soft, thoughtful, moderate' shtick?

[MrCoffee]

92. "I'm Lindsey Graham, I'm your buddy, I'm your pal"

[rodeodance]

101. I respect him for laying it out as he sees it. yet I STRONGLY Disagree.

[MrCoffee]

97. The pukes are all about Somalia these days...

[Scoot420fla]

98. Is Graham voting for Kennedy's ammendment?

He just said that telling people they will be war criminals if they torture our service men DETERS bad treatment, and even ENCOURAGES RELEASE of those already captured.

[CornField]

99. ~*~*~ THREAD 7 OPEN ~*~*~*~

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2246529&mesg_id=2246529

[Efilroft Sul]

102. Yo, Republicans and Vichy Dems:

Upholding the Geneva Conventions, due process, and Habeas Corpus during these times IS a sign of strong national security.

How dare the Republicans accuse real Democrats of being soft on terrorism when the Republicans are creating a terror state themselves? Ah, but they hate us for our freedoms.