Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud HATCH OUT.

[Tyler Durden]

Robert Graves wrote a series of novelizations of the life of Tiberius Germanicus Claudius Caesar, made into a fabulous BBC series under the name of the first of his novels, "I, Claudius."

Many here are familiar with these works, and the underlying theme that evil is so pervasive that it must be allowed to completely sicken a group or nation before effective change will occur.

We're almost there.

Caligula II, AKA the Pig Bush, will, thanks to his lackeys and fellow travelers, completely destroy any moral High Ground once held by the Nation. With the advent of his Torture Initiative, I firmly believe we have reached a tipping point, and the fall will be on one side of the wall or the other.

The question remains, will a fall on the "moral" side of the wall STOP the eventual release of all the "...poisons in the mud..."? At best, I'm not sure, and at worst I not only don't think so but I believe in my heart of hearts that it shouldn't stop the decline.

We in this country have become a modern anachronism: Imperialists with no colonies to conquer. This is worse than bad, it's pathetic. We wander the earth like the "Road Warrior," searching for fuel and shooting all who oppose us. And like the Road Warrior we are doomed in the end by our own thirsts and follies of action.

When we have become our own worst enemy, with the poor nations of the world still using our failed economic models as their guidelines for future success, perhaps we SHOULD fail. I don't wish the chaos that will follow on the most dispicable of my enemies, but I no longer feel that we should succeed.

Maybe our legacy is now to serve as a "bad example" for others not to follow.

[formercia]

1. Someone sees the light.

at the end of a very dark tunnel. That's why I will not despair if the GOP controls Congress come January,for we have forced them to show their hand, and now we know that all they hold is a pair of deuces.

[Tyler Durden]

3. The Dupes have been bluffed.

There's a little Christian bookstore in Owosso, Michigan, a few blocks from where I live. Know what one of their best selling lines of not directly related bible items is?

A rack of Bush buttons and refrigerator magnets, lauding how Bush is a great leader, a great Christian, God bless him, Ad Nauseum.

I find it harder and harder to hope.

[raccoon]

12. In Michigan! After that state has lost good jobs out the wazzu?

Maybe the people who patronize that store think that Jesus, God, or the Rapture will save them from poverty and homelessness. :shrug:

And they don't see what the junta has done to them. I can see why you'd find it harder and harder to hope.

[Tyler Durden]

14. Jesus and the Rapture trump your children's future.

I never figured out why, if God loves the world so much, he'd end it early and the the Antichrist have a party before he declares "last call."

When one lives in Michigan and sees "DeVos" stickers next to "W 04" left and right, one wonders whether or not the residents can even FIND their "Wazoo" with both hands.

[Toots]

7. Yes but deuces beat a lone joker anytime...

That is what the Democratic Party has become ....a joker..

[Tyler Durden]

16. Nothing lasts forever.

Especially Republics.

The downfall of Republics starts when the citizens start being told they can vote themselves a raise. That starts with the Rich Fools and their "Tax Cuts."

[Warpy]

2. Don't forget that Caligula was followed by Claudius

whom everyone took to be a fool but who turned out to be a reasonable leader, but he was followed by Nero. Nero might have gotten a bum rap abot the great fire, but he was still awful.

Suetonius is clear: once they start going bad and are given a Caesar's power, they stay bad and it only gets worse and worse as they seek to maintain that power against rising social discontent.

The bottom line is that things in Rome had deteriorated so far that the "barbarians" who took over were initially welcomed as potential liberators from tyranny. Alas, the barbarians were Christian and they instituted the Taliban like Dark Ages.

History is clear. Unless we manage to rise up and usurp a power mad government headed by men in political dynasties, we are finished. The other lesson of history is also clear: we will take a lot of innocent people around the world down with us.

[Tyler Durden]

4. Mistakes

[catmandu57]

5. I Claudius

comes often to my mind these days, especially the passage of your thread title. Sometimes, I find myself wishing for a great disaster, a natural disaster that would shake the comfortable to their roots, interrupt the flow of bread and circus that feeds them, then watch what happens.

[Crankie Avalon]

6. It was two novels...

...and the second one, "Claudius the God" ended with all his hopes dashed, as his son Britainnicus refused to be part of Claudius's plan (for Britainnicus to flee to Britain and grow up into the warrior/saviour who would come back to Rome to restore the Republic after nero had finished running it into the ground). Instead, Britainnicus wanted to be an Emperor, too, and to compete with Nero for the succession (the Sybelline prophecy let Claudius know just how that contest would turn out). The second novel ends with the note about how after Claudius's murder Aggripina killed Narcissus, Nero killed Aggripina, and "The Republic was never restored."

"Effective change" was hoped for through an attitude of "things needing to get worse before they get better" but, of course, they never did. That was the compelling part of the story (and the history). A happier, more optimistic ending wouldn't have had the same impact.

I've read both books about seven or eight times and have the dramatization on DVD so I've seen all 13 episodes of that at least as many times, as well. I certainly hope our nation will be worthier of a different fate.

[The Stranger]

8. One day a historian will pen the same words for this day --

"The Republic was no more."

[Tyler Durden]

9. Found a first edition of "Claudius the God"

It was stacked in a pile of books at a curb, waiting for the garbage truck. It's on the shelf in my living room.

[The Stranger]

10. "People are always asking me if I know Tyler Durden . . . "

[Tyler Durden]

15. The FIRST RULE of Fight Club...

...is YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB.

[Crankie Avalon]

11. I'M ENVIOUS!!!

To think someone would just throw that out with the trash...lucky for you, though!

[Tyler Durden]

13. Found a lot of good books that way.

As long as there are fools, there will be treasures at the curb, and I'm not proud enough to be stupid.