The Onion That is Home Schooling

[MichaelHarris]

The Onion That is Home Schooling

Recently I had the pleasure of discussing some issues with a Conservative Christian that I think are important to America. I knew going in that this was to be akin to slaying windmills but I was cornered, what could I do? The debate started out being about Jerry Falwell’s statements and the church in California under investigation by the IRS. Here is a brief snippet from that debate:

“Some find that's it is OK for this church to loose it's tax exempt status because they gave a speech against war. Why do these same people think it's OK for a church to tell it's parishioners a vote for John Kerry is wrong? What is the defining thing that makes them choose?

That defining thing is called politics, specifically Republican politics. For years Republicans saw that by using Christians they could gain power. In essence they climbed the backs of Christians to gain power, they were used. Randell "Duke" Cunningham ran as a conservative garnering votes from every church he could attend. He won. He now sits in prison for selling his vote to military contractors. Ney, an Ohio congressman supported by conservatives now sits in rehab after pleaing guilty for selling his votes to the same contractor. He will not resign because "he needs the paycheck.

We live in a nation that has never voted to approve an equal rights amendment for women. Ask yourself why? Look at the record of those that have voted against the amendment every time it comes up. Look at their base of supporters. Why do conservatives not support and equal rights amendment for women? A church in Pullman, Wa is not the worst I've seen. The church in Moscow, Id preaching the benefits of slavery was one of the most hate-filled sermons I've ever read. What makes the Moscow church so dangerous is they actually have home schools.”

Excuse me for the long opening but I had show what the debate was about and how Conservatives reshape the topic to get to what they think they know. Here is an answer to my statement above:

“Bigotry sucks on all levels. I have no idea what church that is, and I'd question anyone there on the various aspects of the New Testament. As far as home schools go, I'd love to hear your views on the public schools. You know, the place that tells our children that infanticide is a normal everyday thing.”

It was that reply that led me to this article, “The Onion That is Home Schooling”. I've never seen infanticide taught anywhere in public schools. My wife taught high school biology for years before becoming a doctor and has never seen it either. As far as home schools go I think most are attempts by parents to segregate their children. The people I know here that home school want to know what their kids are being taught but couldn't tell you where they were last Friday night. There are really only two reasons people home school, some may think there are three but one is just an excuse. First, and most prevalent (although none will admit it) is to separate the races. Second, and this is the excuse not a reason, violence. Their child has a better chance getting killed in a car, abducted at the mall, abused by a church member than being shot at school. Lastly, evolution. You could show actual footage of evolution in progress and they would say Hollywood liberals made it.

Let’s examine these reasons one at a time, if any of you home school I mean no offense but I would hope you would reexamine your reasons. First, segregation. Home schooling boomed after the desegregation of our public schools, in fact lets look at the arguments used for segregation:

*The Constitution did not require white and African American children to attend the same schools.

*Social separation of blacks and whites was a regional custom; the states should be left free to regulate their own social affairs.

*Segregation was not harmful to black people.

*Whites were making a good faith effort to equalize the two educational systems. But because black children were still living with the effects of slavery, it would take some time before they were able to compete with white children in the same classroom.

“Throughout the 1960s, whites increasingly abandoned the Atlanta public schools. A 1973 "compromise" failed to stem the white flight, both from the schools and from the city.” White Flight: The Strategies, Ideology, and Legacy of Segregationists in Atlanta
Kevin Kruse, Princeton University

So where’s the onion? A large percentage of people who home school can be seen as onions. As you peel away the layers, or excuses you begin to see racism, white seperationisn, and race mixing as an excuse. No matter what excuse one gives for home schooling if you dig you are very likely to find this to be the reason. In this day and age none will admit it but it surely must be there. Discuss this with people who home school, when pressed you’ll see a glimmer of racism.

Before you see the beast of racism and race separation you’ll hear this, “schools are just so dangerous”. Well what makes a school dangerous, notebook paper is too sharp? No kids with guns make schools unsafe. Now lets ask the home schooler about gun control. Bad idea, we have the right to bear arms, you’ll get my gun if you pry it from my cold dead fingers. But wait Mr or Mrs Compassionate Conservative, you took your kids out of school and away from any culture they may learn to protect them from violence. Is there any chance you would just want to make it a little harder for kids to use guns by putting trigger locks on them? Here’s an idea how about you as a Compassionate Conservative take responsibility if your child uses a gun in a crime? Lets say you do their time.

It is like the onion when it comes to people who home school, you peel away the layers or reasons they home school and you find the "real" people. Not the ones that fear crime, if that was the case wouldn't they not even let their kids out of the house? No, you find those that want to segregate, you find those that close their mind to discussion and reason. I’ll sometime ask parents who home school where their kids were last Friday night, most don’t know but in school they are safe. Where does a child have a better chance of being molested today, school or a church? Where does a child have a better chance of being killed, out with friends or in school? These parents will say safety but they really mean safety from non-white America.

Lastly home schoolers cite evolution vs creationism as a reason for home schooling. We have to remember these are the same people who believe a guy built an ark and loaded up two of each animal, including dinosaurs and floated around for 40 days. How much does a dinosaur eat in 40 days anyway? Home schoolers have never grasped the idea that there can be more than one place in rounding out a child’s education. The concept of spiritual education in a church, social and community education in a public school, and personal development at home are the cornerstones of a well rounded individual. These people deny their children interaction with their peers for one reason, evolution? Probably not, remember they are onions. Don’t be an onion, peel as many as you can find to expose the truth.

Michael Harris

[nosmokes]

1. Excellent essay! K&R!

thanks for posting it. bravo!

[Extend a Hand]

2. I wouldn't claim that racism is never an issue

but of the two families I know that are currently home schooling, I do not believe that racism is an the underlying reason in either.

One family are evangelicals in Utah in the middle of Morman country-- they are afraid of a Morman influence in the school system.

The other family pulled a child with a weight problem out of public because the school was not responsive to problems with bullying.

[MichaelHarris]

45. but

isn't wanting a seperation from Morman influence sort of racist in a way? If they plan to live in that community will they grow up with that seperations?

[Extend a Hand]

59. no

it is not at all racist. Race is not the issue.
Religion is the issue. They are white and in an overwhelmingly white school district.
Their intention is to make sure that their children are thoroughly indoctrinated with their (non-Mormon) fundy world view. I think homeschooling in this case is a disservice to the children. I'm just saying that racism didn't have anything to do with it.

[MichaelHarris]

82. I think

that is where I made a mistake with my article, not defining racism. Forgive me if I have this wrong here but we have a non-Mormon family living in a Mormon community. This family not wanting to have their children schooled next to Mormons chose to separate them. Racism doesn't necessarily mean color.

I may have the situation totally backwards but my point is they wanted to separate their children from something. Couldn't that separation also mean a bigoted view of another group?

[Extend a Hand]

111. I think you need to choose a word other than racism

to describe what you mean. I believe that redefining and using a personal definition of the word 'racism' will be counterproductive if your goal is to make a point.

A bigoted view of another group is only racism if that other group is defined by race. Maybe replace the word racism with the word bigotry.

I'll still disagree with you but then my disagreement will be the sweeping generalization of the statement ;).

[MichaelHarris]

125. I really do

understand your point. If I re-define racism to be different from bigotry then I feel it weakens the argument. I truly didn't mean to anger anyone. In my anger over the attacks on public education I came on pretty strong. My point was really get people to examine why they home school. I'm sure there are good people home schooling but I really do believe that number is small.

What is accomplished by removing someone from a "society"? In defining "society" here I mean public education, a setting where there is a great mix of culture, thoughts, and expression. People who home school pull their children out of school for a reason. Can fear really be a reason? If that were truly the case they shouldn't let their kids leave home. There has to be a better reason. Are public school teachers that bad? Not the ones I know.

If people pull their kids out of public school and place them in a large home school didn't they just create a public school with the only difference being that these kids were "hand-picked" by "like-minded" people? Isn't that a form of segregation?

[emdee]

135. So, you see public school as being attacked...

and you decide that home schoolers are the reason? You said, "In my anger over the attacks on public education I came on pretty strong." Do you think that only home schoolers are "attacking" the public school system? And, why would your "attack" be somehow ok if the "attack" on the public school system isn't? You are talking in circles now.

You then said, "...public education, a setting where there is a great mix of culture, thoughts, and expression..." Not always, as surely you should know. You can't paint a rosy picture on public schools and call all home schoolers nutso. How (for lack of a better word) Freepy of you.

Why do you think all things public are good and all things at home are not? Why would you assume that we have no contact whatsoever with the outside world? And, since we should subject our kids to all things outside the home, when did you first take your niece and nephews to their first crack house? How'd that go? Are you -um- SEPARATING yourself from someone?????

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

140. seriously

never mind, I tried being cordial with you.

[emdee]

147. But, But, But

I've only asked you basically the same thing you've asked me.
emdee

[MichaelHarris]

155. and I've

answered as politely as I could. I never attacked any individual here, I attacked an idea. On this topic I've faced personal attacks aplenty, that's fine but is that what home school teaches? Attack the individual and not the idea? Is the anger and hatefulness that the home schoolers here exhibit indicative of what they are teaching? If one of your home school students come to the same conclusions that I have will you be as hatefully?

Is this the debate skills you guys teach?

[emdee]

160. First of all....

you have most certainly NOT answered "as politely as you could." Secondly, you started off rude and ill-informed. And, thirdly, you refuse to actually discuss the vital information we've given you. You take it as offensive and hostile. It isn't - it is information. You have yet to comment on one positive part of homeschooling when many have been offered up to your altar. I think YOUR debating skills are not as good as you'd like ours to be, sir. You'll have to show me where someone has been more rude to you than the reverse.
emdee

[proud2BlibKansan]

191. No you are attacking him

It just doesn't occur to you that some of us find nothing positive in homeschooling.

His debating skills are fine. You just happen to disagree with his opinion. And you are being hostile.

[emdee]

192. I am not being hostile....

but thank you for your input.
emdee

[Dorian Gray]

227. Nothing?

Hell, I wouldn't consider homeschooling, but I think it's pretty closed minded to say that there is nothing positive in homeschooling. There are plenty of positives. I don't necessarily believe every homeschooling situation provides the positives, but there are definitely some positives associated with homeschooling. (And I say that with the idea that it's a choice I would never choose!)

I don't understand what it is about this topic that is so polarizing and creates so much judgementalism.

[girl gone mad]

203. Your first mistake is in believing..

that there is a great mix of culture, thoughts, and expression in public schools.

the PS I went to was 98% white upper-middle class. There was very little expression allowed and conformity was expected. Culture? Baseball, football and pep rallies was about as much culture as we got. Black history month was celebrated with a couple of posters on the wall in the back of the history room. Van Gogh cut his ear off over a girl. Trickle-down was a valid economic theory. Vanilla Ice was a great rapper.

My current school district is not in need of money. The parents are happy with the way the schools are run, and I wouldn't have a snowman's chance in hell of bringing about big changes by enrolling my son and joining the school board. People here do not want change. I have had many conversations with other parents. They like the watered down, test-based curriculum, the enormous focus on sports and the limited creative opportunities (art and music budgets being cut down to nothing). They complain about the science (which my son found mind-numbingly boring) being too challenging. It seems that if anyone here is out of touch with the realities of modern public education, it isn't the homeschoolers.

[Extend a Hand]

233. you just described to a tee

the public school system I rejected.

After seven years in a Montesorri my son now attends an urban Catholic High School with a strong fine arts program. It is a much better fit for him.

[Extend a Hand]

232. why redefine racism?

use the generally accepted definition.
rac‧ism  /ˈreɪsɪzəm/
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Racism is a particual type of bigotry. It means what it means. You are using the word incorrectly if you try apply it to forms of bigotry that have nothing to do with race. It weakens your argument to use the word incorrectly.

As to getting people to think about the reasons for home schooling, using a broad brush to describe a group as diverse as home schoolers as racist or bigots is unlikely to put most people in a reflective mood. I disagree with the premis that most parents who choose to homeschool base the decision on fears, insecurities, and hatred. No doubt some do but I would be suprised to find that that is the norm.

FWIW, I do not home school. I did choose to enroll my child in a private school. If I was not able to afford that option I would have considered home schooling. My son was able to attend a Montessori school that used a completely different method of teaching from that of most public schools. The student teacher ration was 12:1. Foreign language and piano lessions were part of the curriculum. Time management was taught and my child was never stressed with loads of meaningless homework "worksheets" that some of my friend's children had to deal with. For him this method was great. I chose excellence in education.

It would not suprise me to find that there are children who really need and benefit from the personal attention possible in a home school in environment.

If you check out sites that deal with homeschooling, a wide variety of peer group social and cultural activities and opportunities are frequently discussed and sought out. This is not something you'd expect from a group attempting to segregate their children from their peers. Having said that, segregation is not an inherently bad thing. Society segregates prisoners from for the protection of society. Hospitals segregate people with communicable diseases. I hope farmers are segrgating impotentent genetically modified seeds from reproducing seeds. Public schools and teachers should be allowed to segregate students that are unable or unwilling to participate in a class without disrupting learning for other students. This is a problem that must be addressed in order to deliver a quality education. I feel that this is the single biggest advantage that private schools have over public schools.

[ND Pendie]

250. Public schools also segregate

They segregate children according to age groups and geographic location.

I think it would be a bit stifling if adults were expected to spend all our time, for the next 12 years, only with those people in our neighborhoods who are exactly our age.

Not at all the ideal method by which to introduce diversity into a child's life.

[Zhade]

213. Religion is chosen. Race is not.

They are in no way equal, though both minorities and the religious can be victims of bigotry.

[ND Pendie]

120. Utah and Church/State issues

If you don't live in Utah, you have no idea how difficult it can be. The LDS church is SO much a part of everything here, including the government. The public school system is just one part of that problem.

Imagine a place where the teachers routinely discuss what they did on their "mission" ( a time, normally just after high school, where a young LDS member is given additional education in their philosophy, is sent away from home for an extended period--often to a foreign country--for the purpose of preaching in a different culture). LDS children can relate, all others are left out.

Or ask children what they did in youth group. Or refer to people as "Elder" (a church title).

Also, because of the large size of many LDS families, and because of the sheer number of churches (often, their will be an LDS church every few blocks), the odds are in favor of your child's teacher going to the same church that children in your area are expected to attend, or being related to someone in your "ward." (A ward is a geographical area devoted to a single church, usually only a few blocks in size.) And not a single LDS person ever seems to think that it is out of the ordinary to speak in such terms. The social structure here is so isolated, that they just don't consider the fact that their students may not be 100% LDS

It's insidious.

And if you wonder why anyone would want to subject their children to that, then you might begin to understand why there is a huge home-schooling community in Utah. And though there are many LDS HSers, the HS community is far more diverse than the public schools.

Finally, if you wonder why any non LDS people would want to live in LDS land, then you need to visit Utah. We have incredible snow seasons, low crime rates, clean air, wide open spaces, awes inspiring geography, some of the best dinosaur museums I've ever seen, lakes, rivers, mountains, and poetically beautiful autumns.

It isn't fair to let the LDS people enjoy it all by themselves, you know?

Oh yeah! Robert Redford lives here, runs his environmental organizations from here, and throws a little film festival hereabouts on a yearly basis.

There are many reasons to be here, and many reasons to home school. I've never understood the tendency of Dems to look down their noses at home schoolers.

There may be a time--if evangelicals have their way--when you'll WANT to home school. It ain't just a big happy/sappy Jesus camp, friends.

[Faux pas]

3. Kudos! K & R. I believe parents who home school are selfish.

Children have a right to be exposed to more than one/two persons view of the world. Home schooled kids will end up socially retarded. This is dumbing down America squared.

[ChicagoRonin]

4. More than selfish - damaging

I don't see how children who have not been allowed to interact with others outside of the family can possibly grow up to be normal adults. Sure, it's messy. Send a kid to school, they may be subjected to teasing and bullying, they have to put up with class clown, they have to deal with the cliques and the clubs, the haves and have-nots. And guess what? That's how they get to know how society works. Without being exposed to those small everyday conflicts, how will they develop the social skills and defense mechanisms of a normal adult?

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. You are so right

Kids who have no school social experiences have a harder time fitting in as adults.

The other important point is life is about doing all kinds of things you don't want to do, like being polite to people you don't like and getting up and fighting traffic to get to a job you may not be crazy about, etc. I would rather not spend my hard earned money on paying bills. I also don't like having to mow my lawn. But life is about doing things I don't want to do and don't enjoy. I learned that as a child, mainly in school.

Many home schoolers have decided that their children can stay home and choose what they want to do instead of being forced to do things they don't enjoy in school. The disservice that is being done to these kids is scary. What will happen the first time they tell their boss "But I would rather choose to do something other than what you are telling me I have to do"?

I know one family that homeschools and has their kids on a rigid schedule and sticks to it. Their kids don't choose what they want to learn, the parents follow a curriculum. But that approach is unusual. Most families I know who homeschool don't do that.

[rockymountaindem]

66. Social interaction can take place outside of school

Kids I've known who have been homeschooled took part in park and rec. teams, church events, and just played with kids in their own neighborhood. Being homeschooled doesn't mean being locked in a closet and only being let out to do lessons. It's possible to become a normal person without spending the hours of nine to three in a public school, and it can take place in a normal way.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

219. two boys being home schooled in my small town almost 20 years ago...

none of us kids knew they existed until the older one was arrested for stealing bikes.

needless to say, when their parents put them in public school the next year, they weren't accepted well. Those were OUR bikes.

:shrug:

[emdee]

71. So many assumptions.....

so little time! :banghead:

That school is the only way to socialize or interact with others is so false that only cavemen would believe it! Haha Now, if you are offended by that statement.....um, your caveman-club is showing!

emdee (borrowing from the commercials)

[jmowreader]

91. Regarding socialization..here's what school really does for kids

It puts them in with People Mom and Dad May Not Approve Of.

If the kids are only allowed to socialize with others in church activities, sports teams and the like, that's not much better than locking them in the closet.

[MichaelHarris]

94. it's

as if the parents chose for them a hand-picked, with like-minded people "society" for their children. Sure quacks like segregation doesn't it?

[emdee]

96. Wrong again.....

I am SO shocked at the intolerance and false assumptions and also at the obvious lack of research. HERE of all places. The home of tolerance and choice --- so I thought.

I know many grown kids who are quite successful and happy and who were {gasp} home schooled. This is not something new, you know. Home schooling has been around long enough to see results. Of course, not in all cases - but public schools cannot claim 100% successes either. Much depends on the parents and the children. I don't push home schooling on anyone but I dang well will defend it.

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

100. tell me

what did you want to separate your children from?

[emdee]

113. You are so anxious to know specifics, aren't you?

Ok, I'll tell you - but I remind you that you are not on the short list of people who have a say-so in my life.....unless you want to kick in a house payment or insurance payment - in which case I'll email you my address and then after receiving said check, we'll talk.

My child was an early reader - doing the work of 1st grade between the ages of 3 and 4. At age 4, I decided that she should at least get credit for the hard work she was doing but, no, I didn't want to put a 4-year-old on the big yellow bus. Do others do so? Yes, I have no problem with others who do that very thing. I also have no problem if others have turnip greens for supper - but I won't cook them. It's a choice.

We (that is, those of us who are on the short list of people who are responsible for this household and -no- you aren't on it) decided to try it --- after all, who can screw up Kindergarten? Surely we can agree on that? Maybe not. Since then, each year we (the same group mentioned above) sit and discuss the issue. We make the decision as a new one each year.

Ok, now I'm going to tell you one teeny little thing you haven't thought of ---- We enjoy the flexibility of home schooling. We go on vacation when we want (preferably when your kids are in school! Haha --- that's a joke, btw - please don't be angry). There are many ways to explore the flexibility of home schooling - can you think of others? If you are truly wanting to discuss rather than dictate and judge then you will try to come up with other ways that this ***choice*** could be flexible. Perhaps if one parent worked an odd shift and would never see the child if he/she were in school? Could that be a positive?

At what age do you suggest the cutting of apron strings that you seem to hate so badly?

So, you see, your assumption of separation as being the only reason is way off base. I know and am in social activities with many people who choose public or private school systems. We all discuss the positives and negatives and come to our own decisions. Why won't you allow people to make their own choices? I'm sure that you could find families who do it for the wrong reasons --- but there are even some parents who choose public or private schools for the wrong reasons (I said *some* -- you seem to insinuate *all* in your assumptions).

Now, I must say that I do apologize for correcting your spelling. It was just too hard not to! I am not in the habit of doing that because (a) that's when the person doing the correcting stops being able to spell correctly herself and (b) typing is not the same thing as spelling and (c) heck it's just a computer message board for goodness' sakes! But, you had it coming, you must admit. I guess a true apology wouldn't end with "you had it coming," huh? Oh well. LOL

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

139. So

is she with others her own age?

My child was an early reader - doing the work of 1st grade between the ages of 3 and 4. At age 4, I decided that she should at least get credit for the hard work she was doing but, no, I didn't want to put a 4-year-old on the big yellow bus.

In the progression that is childhood is she doing things a 6 year old does now? I don't mean to pry and I'm not angry, in a way I'm trying to understand.

[emdee]

152. She is with her peers, yes....

she is older than six now. But, yes, she is with friends. Here's one other thing about home schooling that is absolutely great: friends don't have to be the same age. Remember in school (I do) when we hardly spoke to those only a grade below or above us? We stayed in our own age group and rarely strayed. One positive thing about home schooling is that friends come in all age ranges. Her spend-the-night friends may be a year or two above or below her own age. Her we-will-all-play-together-today friends can range from babies to grownups. And, the home schoolers I know can talk and carry on a conversation with any age person.

Sometimes I say "excuse me," as an example, in a public store to a kid in their teens and I usually don't get an answer in reply - maybe just a cold stare. I haven't seen any home schoolers I know act that way --- is that what you claim they are missing out on? (simply asking - not mad at all)

Home schooled kids have sleep-overs - go to the movies - study together - talk on the phone together - and meet together - all the things other kids do. There are no perfect kids - there are no perfect parents - but *for us* home schooling has worked so far. I judge no one who chooses differently. Most of my own friends have chosen public or private schools for their children - their children are friends of my child. They aren't hidden for no one to see.

emdee

[proud2BlibKansan]

195. I find it interesting that home schoolers always know about kids who were

home schooled and are happy and successful adults. Yet, I have never met any of these kids.

I had a new student come to my class a few years ago and he struggled from day one. He had poor self-discipline, he often refused to do his assignments, never did homework and appeared to have very poor academic skills. After a few weeks, I asked his mother to come up to school for a conference. She told me he had been a straight A student and wasn't used to failure. So I asked her where he had gone to school the year before. She said she had home schooled him. I asked her well who gave him straight As. She said well she did.

These are the kinds of kids I know who have been home schooled.

BTW, at the end of that year, this little boy was reading on grade level and one of the best writers in my class. As soon as he realized he couldn't choose what to do and what not to do, he thrived. And his mother was one of the best parent helpers I have ever had.

Kids need discipline and order. Allowing them to make their own rules rarely works. For that matter, most adults don 't get to make their own rules.

[emdee]

199. How do you know you've never met any?

Do you ask everyone you come in contact with where they attended school?

Let's see - without giving out names and addresses - I know several now in college and doing well, one is in a radiology program and another is in the RN program. Three are going to a university out of state and I'm not sure what their majors are. I know two who are now married and doing well. And, I know several more who entered the work force. I cannot answer as to why you've never met them. This is a small rural community with a big home schooling group. We've been very fortunate to watch them grow and prosper. Is there a 100% positive rate? No - just as there is no 100% positive rate in any other form of education. I know many who have sent their children to public or private schools and kept them there and many have brought their kids back home at a later date. Choice - ain't it grand?

Have you ever before or since had students who had "poor self-discipline, often refused to do assignments, never did homework and appeared to have very poor academic skills" who was not home schooled? I can't imagine that answer being "no."

As for your statement, "Kids need discipline and order. Allowing them to make their own rules rarely works." Are you assuming that all of our children make their own rules and have little or no discipline or order? If you are, you are mistaken.

Again, I cannot imagine that every other child you've come in contact with who have public school backgrounds are perfect in every way.

emdee

[MUSTANG_2004]

205. Did she say why she put him back in school?

Maybe she recognized that homeschooling wasn't a good fit for her. That doesn't mean it's not a good fit for other people.

[emdee]

207. In fact, it would make her an excellent parent. Good point. nt

nt

[emdee]

209. Homeschooling Success Stories....

I'll post an example of one - but a Google search using the words HOMESCHOOL and SUCCESS will bring up many more. Have you searched for this type of info before? If not, why not? I have a feeling that you have met more than you think you have.

Now that the first generation of homeschoolers is well-established in society, we're hearing a lot about how well these young people are doing. They are running businesses, excelling in college and homeschooling their own children. One has even written a best-selling novel.

Christopher Paolini is the 20-year-old author of Eragon, a fantasy novel that jumped to third on The New York Times bestseller list just a few weeks after it was published.

Christopher's journey to fame began when he was fifteen. He finished high school and was accepted to a college but decided not to go right away. Instead, he set out to write a novel for his own entertainment.

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/052504.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

220. And there are 1 million hits when you Google

Home schooling failures.

[emdee]

221. That wasn't the question you asked earlier....

you asked about homeschooling success stories and so we obliged. Are you saying that a Google search on Public School Failures or Public School Teacher Failures would garner fewer than 1 million hits? I doubt it. Once again, however, no reply is made about the actual information supplied.

Oh, and about the above post where you called me hostile --- yeah, um, I've been reading a few of your posts and you do have nerve to make that accusation against anyone else, that's for sure! Gracious, talk about hostile.

Do you believe in a parent's choice in selecting how to properly educate their children? Simple question but it hasn't been answered yet.

emdee

[MUSTANG_2004]

224. 49.9 million

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=public+school+failures

and 17 million
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=public+school+teacher+failures

[emdee]

225. Now those are big numbers!

Thanks for the search results! Ask and ye shall receive! LOL
:hi:
emdee

[proud2BlibKansan]

251. I agree with the OP

I think home schooling is dangerous and harmful to many kids. So no, I don't think parents should have the right to choose this as an option. At the very least, home schoolers should be required to take the same tests kids in public schools take (every year, not just when they get to high school) so their progress can be monitored. See, contrary to your rosy impression, there are many parents who spend their days sleeping or even going to work while pretending to home school. Their kids are being damaged. As an advocate for ALL kids, I speak out against programs I feel are damaging. It is wrong to allow kids to suffer and not do anything to prevent it.

Not every home schooler goes on to Harvard or wins the spelling bee or aces the ACT. The vast majority do not. Pointing to these kids as evidence of success is silly. I could also point out kids who go to public schools and ace the ACT and win spelling bees and get scholarships to Harvard. Does that mean public schools are successful with EVERY kid? Of course not. My best friend in high school and another classmate were among the first women admitted to Yale back in the 70s. They both drove VWs. Does that mean driving a VW is a ticket in to an Ivy League school?

In my state, there is no oversight of home schoolers. They don't have to register, no one checks up on them and their kids are never tested. I think that is wrong. If their kids were achieving at the "straight A" rate many of their parents claim, then it makes no sense that they resist testing them. That would be definitive proof that home schooling is better. Kinda makes you go hmmm, what are they afraid of?

Sorry but we will never agree on this. While you have sheltered your children and kept them away from the real world, I have worked in it and taught your children's peers and far too many kids whose parents tried to home school and failed. I could list 100s of reasons I think it is wrong to home school, but I am sure most have already been noted in this thread.

[emdee]

252. I wouldn't want you teaching my child...

your assumptions as to what others do or may do clouds your judgment too greatly to trust my child in hands such as yours. Nothing you say about me or others I know is true.

And, if you will search the threads no one, NO ONE, ever said that every case is perfect but your questions were answered sufficiently - answers which you choose either not to read or respond to.

This makes me wonder just how you treated that boy who returned to school from a home school situation. Yikes. Talk about abuse - I imagine it was just that. (Hey, if you can state what you think about me as fact, I can do the reverse.)

emdee

[emdee]

270. Two items of interest....

I read your journal, Proud2Blib -

1. You are a special ed teacher - so the boy you brought up is/was a special needs student? How much of what you said was directly associated with that nugget of info you left out?

2. You HATE the school system and can't wait to get out of it! Um.....what? So, all of this that you've posted in this thread is simply, "I'm miserable so everyone else should be miserable too!"??!!??!!?

NOTE: once again, I'm NOT anti-public school -- but I am pro-choice.

emdee

[GoddessOfGuinness]

273. We have some success stories right here on DU...

The child of one of our own and the child's homeschooled friend are both National Merit Scholar semi-finalists.

It's not about homeschool being "better" than public or private school. It's about finding what's right for our individual children in their unique situations, and devoting ourselves to it.

[girl gone mad]

211. Here's a family who sent their 3 homeschooled kids to Harvard.

http://www.amazon.com/Homeschooling-Excellence-David-Colfax/dp/0446389862

Now you can no longer say you don't know of any home schooled kids who became happy and successful adults.

[peacebaby3]

218. I actually know one of their sons. He is brilliant. Earned a JD

and a MD from Harvard. Really kind man as well and I'm proud he is my friend.

[Maru Kitteh]

231. BINGO! My step-daughter has joined us after years of home-schooling

And it has CRIPPLED HER socially. She still prefers childrens programing, relates better to children who are 4 and 5 and even 6 years younger than kids her own age and has a really hard time getting just what is acceptable and expected in social situations.

She did all of that 'socializing' home-school parents are so self-congratulatory about 'giving' or 'allowing' their children. It makes no difference when mummy and daddy hand pick all of the contestants in the game. It provides no benifit. It's not real life, it's just an empty facade and it is HARMFUL to the kids they're trying to 'save'.

[Random_Australian]

8. Well, most of the time.

It does not have to be that way.

(Actually, here we have laws that say if you are going to home-school then you have to get your kid out into the world and in social groups some other way. While someone could conceivably only let their kids go to special things were everyone believes the same, this is rare here)

Or in other words, not all of the time.

[mongo]

37. Thanks a lot

Not everyone who homeschools is a freeptard.

We pulled our daughter out of school after 8th grade when she was expossed to religious assemblies in school, and a witchhunt of all the alternative kids after the Columbine tragedy.

That's OK. She got a far better education at home than she could have had in our hick public school. Her US History textbook was Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States for example.

She is now an honor's student in a large public university, and is well adjusted socially.

[MichaelHarris]

44. no one labeled

anyone a freeper for homeschooling, not at least in anything I wrote. You chose to give into a fear than let your child be among their peers. Only you know how well adjusted she is, I can't know that. What I do know is when she becomes a parent will she be able to tell her children how nice her senior prom was?

We pulled our daughter out of school after 8th grade when she was expossed to religious assemblies in school, and a witchhunt of all the alternative kids after the Columbine tragedy.

You wanted a seperation from some who wanted religious assemblies, if you really think about that isn't that a form of hatred? Wouldn't discussion with your child at home about these assemblies been a method to keep her among her peers? I didn't see a goth kid retaliation after Columbine, look deep and ask yourself did fear win?

[Bridget Burke]

54. Well, I went to public school & didn't go the senior prom.....

Perhaps that's the reason I'm a spinster! Not having children, I don't face the shame of NOT telling them about my prom.

Quite of few Homeschoolers fit the profile in the OP. But not all of them do.

By the way: I don't support vouchers for private schools or for homeschooling.

[MichaelHarris]

72. Sorry Bridget

I didn't mean to imply not going to the prom was bad. I meant to say that it's an experience that won't be a choice for these kids. These kids won't have a sports team to be a part of if they choose, they won't have a yearbook to look at 40 years down the road, and they won't have high school memories. Not that those things are important, it's the fact they had no choice in determining the importance. These are experiences that will be lost to them. Lost because some parents felt SEPARATION was better.

[emdee]

77. You are wrong....

I know about home school proms and home school sports activities and home school yearbooks. Why do you make these assumptions? Trying to get a free meal? Come on over and I'll show these things to you. And, check your spelling -- seperation is separation. Were you public-schooled? Just joking - I'm not one to correct spelling on internet message boards at all -- but in this case, I've made an exception! LOL
emdee

[MichaelHarris]

93. sorry

for my mis-spelling, that's unforgivable in a thread about education. I know about home school proms also, how many home school parents do you know set up a senior prom?

Now before any of you just jump all over me about the un-importance of such activities and how those things just "mess kids up" let me just say this: It's not about the prom, it's not about going to the homecoming game, it's not about drama class, it's about not having a CHOICE to attend these things. They have no choice because a parent hand-picked, with like-minded people their "society". That is segregation.

When you take a child out of public school because "Johnny was being picked on" what message did you just send? Is it now OK for Johnny to run from his problems? Should Johnny shy away from a society that wasn't hand-picked for him?

[emdee]

104. I know of three sets of parents....

who set up a home school prom.

As far as your assumption of 'hand-picked, with like-minded people' once again, what research have you done on the matter? When your child (you have yet to tell us about your children, btw) was two, did you throw him/her into a ring of unknown people? At what age did you begin to do that?

Now, this is the sort of argument you are throwing at us -- just tell us when you think it is age-appropriate to throw your child into a car with a known pervert? Where's the fine line? You seem to know exactly. Why don't you give all parents the same leeway of knowing where that fine line is within their own family?

And, btw, my "Johnny" wasn't pulled out because someone picked on her. But, I suppose your "Johnny" would have been told to 'be a man - get in there and win that fight with that bully!' Thing is - these days the bully has a knife and gets preferential treatment. But, again, that is not my reason for home schooling. When/if I decide you are needed in that discussion (which we have each year), I'll call you, 'k? (again, not said in that 'mad lot' tone at all - just curious as to who died and made you President of all things Parental).

Crap - had to edit for SPELLING --- Haha

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

109. Does your daughter go to the mall with friends?

you know you shouldn't let her ever go anywhere, it's not safe. Best to keep her at home so you can watch her. Comparing the crime rate in public schools to the crime rate in any big city I would think it best never to let her leave the house.

[emdee]

119. Who's the 'angry lot' now?

You didn't answer any of my questions! Why not?

BTW, you don't know my daughter's age - if she were 10 would you have asked me if she goes to the mall alone with her friends? At what age do you expect her to do so? And, do you know that the mall is over an hour away from my home? Do you see why you aren't in charge of my household, perhaps?

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

127. I

answered them further down, in another post by you.

[emdee]

133. You didn't answer all of them. nt

nt

[ryanus]

124. You need to do some research

In the high school in my area (junior high, too, I think) you can attend practically any class, like band, and you can participate in practically every activity and sport, like football or chess club. Dances, too. The schools do not exclude kids who don't go full time. It's not like you either ARE a kid that does things with the public school system, or you ARE NOT.

I think of myself as rarely rude, but I must say that you are completely clueless on this topic. I guess you heard a few things about homeschooling, then built up in your mind how it all is. You really are part of them problem.

And the reason people get so upset is because they worry that guys like you will get laws passed or school rules changed which try to force homeschoolers to stop what their doing.

[MichaelHarris]

128. I

would like to stop some of them.

[ryanus]

131. You said, "I would like to stop some of them."

Then prepare for a fight.

[MichaelHarris]

144. You

wouldn't even want to stop the ones that teach hate? To protect your homeschool you would allow others to train racists? I don't understand, help me out here.

[emdee]

156. It's kind of like...

"Mr. President, you can tap my phone 'cause if I'm not doing anything wrong it's the patriotic thing to do so that you can catch terrorists and anyone who disagrees is unpatriotic, unAmerican, unChristian, etc.!"

Giving up freedoms such as free speech or freedom of choice in matters such as school choices is not part of a democracy.

If some are abusing the system, you shouldn't punish all.

Home schoolers pay taxes just like everyone else - those taxes purchase public school books, books we aren't allowed to use. We must purchase everything we need and also fund the public school system. I'm not complaining at all - just hoping that you'll realize that maybe you don't have a dog in this fight. We aren't funded by anyone but ourselves and there are already plenty of rules and regulations that must be followed.

There are some kids not doing well in every choice there is - and there are some thriving in each of those choices as well.

emdee

[ryanus]

159. You don't get it

If someone commits a crime, like abusing their kids, then you prosecute. You do NOT make homeschooling illegal because some parents who abuse their kids also homeschool. It's the same tired old argument the Bush admin gives about surveillance. Since some people may be doing bad things behind closed doors, we want all doors to be open. No. I didn't do anything wrong.

But it is true that I would allow others to train racists to keep my right to homeschool. That's what happens when you let people exercise their rights. Some people will use it for ill. But that's why we punish in the event of an actual crime, not in the event that there may be a crime. I hope I don't have to explain this concept.

[Zhade]

216. And THAT'S pretty much BULLSHIT.

Not your saying it happens - it does - but that it's allowed.

It takes slots away from kids in public schools and gives them to the undeserving - those who don't attend public schools. By taking a child out of school, the homeschooling parent helps reduce the amount of money a school gets.

Schools already don't get enough funding, and now the parent who helped slash the funding wants the benefit of the remaining funding by involving their child in the bennies of public school without sending the child there to ensure the money exists for all students.

It's inherently selfish. Want to homeschool? Fine. Want to have it both ways? That's ridiculous.

[Extend a Hand]

235. home schooling doesn't take money away from the public schools

where I live. Parents of home schooled and private schooled children pay the same taxes as the children attending public schools.

[Zhade]

242. Obviously, I'm talking about where it DOES take money away.

And yes, you pay the same taxes - education is an investment in society's future.

[mongo]

255. And where would that be?

Obviously, I'm talking about where it DOES take money away.

Since public schools are funded by property taxes everywhere I've ever lived.

[Zhade]

271. Pretty cowardly of you to PM me to say "fuck you" and then block me.

Sad.

[Lucy - Claire]

240. I would rather take my child out of a school...

that subjects her to daily bullying, then hit the headlines because she has been driven
to suicide by despair and lack of self-worth. I think you also need to look deeper into bullying
and understand it is not about child running away from their problems. It is about your happy, clever, funny
child becoming withdrawn, with little confidence and sliding grades. If I take my child out of school, it is because they have failed to protect my child and others, from being beaten up, spat on and being the subject of gangs. I know that being left in a school like that will destroy their lives and ruin their future, as they take a life time to recover.

[Lucy - Claire]

241. All parents hand pick friends to an extent....

Public School parents, will have a hard time allowing their child to hang around childs that
smoke Pot or drink underage. They may not want their daughter to be friends with girl that dresses like
a hooker, has little home disapline and losses her virginity aged 11.
I would not be happy if my child was with the skinny, bulimic, cool girls, because I would worry about her
health and bad influances. I wouldn't want he having a boyfriend that would use her. Parents naturally protect their children, for harm and that includes other kids that can cause harm.
Home-Schooling is not as prevelent in the UK but it does happen and it is not an insular community. Kids are encouraged to go to cubs or brownies, dance lessons, football, swimming with other kids.
If my child has anything like the bad time, that I did in state school, I will take her out. She is only three and I am likely too sent her to a small private school anyway. Growing up in London it is impossible not to mix with diverse backgrounds.

[Bridget Burke]

110. The only homeschooling parents I know....

Ask their kids every year whether they want to return to Public Schools. So far, they've said no.

Quite a few homeschoolers do it for the wrong reasons. And even those with better reasons tend to be a bit smug--"Lookie, We Stay At Home Wifies Really ARE Better!"

Homeschooled kids can play sports--although they will have fewer chances of athletic scholarships. (Which got 2 of my nieces into fine schools.)

Spare me your heartwarming high school memories!

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Or how about fighting the school?

If it was a public school, religious assemblies are not legal. I really don't understand how a concerned parent and citizen can allow this school to continue to violate the US constitution and just withdraw their own child from the school. Just think of what may have been accomplished if the parent had actually challenged the school for what they were doing instead of backing away.

Damn whatever happened to fighting injustice? Now we have all these people who just want to take care of their own (kind of like the republicans!)

[mongo]

64. See Daisy's post below

and also, remember the Adams County Oh ten commandments case the ACLU fought not too long ago?

Their lawyers were shot at on their way to the courthouse.

We aren't that far away from there -- did you really want me to alienate my daugher from her peers by pursueing the matter -- against her wishes?

Not to mention the very real fact that it would have put my entire family in great danger.

And what the hell is wrong with taking care of your own kid? She certainly got a far better education from Daisy than she would have got in our schools.

Oh, and BTW we contacted the ACLU. We got no response. Guess they were tired of getting shot at and it's just too far a drive from the Cleveland offices anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. I fought schools in 2 different districts

Trust me, it CAN be done. I see it as a duty. Sorry you don't.

Just think - where would we be today if Thomas Jefferson had decided not to write that Declaration of Independence because he was afraid his family might be hurt?

Sometimes you just gotta take a stand.

[mongo]

101. I can't believe you're impuning my patriotism

Yes, we complained to the principal, and the superintendant.

We tried to get the ACLU involved -- in the witchhunt. She was facing CRIMINAL charges, for saying something that I know damn well she never said.

They got about a dozen students out of the middle school. Every one of them EXCEPT my daughter was put on probation, for things they allegedly said. The reason my daughter didn't -- we HIRED a lawyer -- the same lawyer that was the public defender for many of the other kids.

The religious assembly incident happened before she was expelled. We complained. My daughter didn't want us to take it further, because SHE KNEW it would only osticize her from her classmates.

She already had the disadvantage of being new in a school where nearly ALL of the kids had been together since kindergarten.

Yeah, you got to pick your battles. Sometimes when your back is against the wall, it's better to run and fight another day.

[Zhade]

217. Sure you understand. We both know the answer:

"Fuck the other kids, my little genius got his!"

That's pretty much what it boils down to.

[ProfessorPlum]

246. that's a cold thing to write

many people have been trying to change public schools, with little to no success. And the process can take years, while your kids have to go through the still crappy school. By the time any changes are made, they are probably out of that school. So sometimes you have to decide where to put your energies. Devoting time to your own kids is usually not that big of a sin, especially if you are still supporting the public school financially.

[Zhade]

263. It also happens to be true quite often.

I will grant that if the homeschooling parents are ALSO doing everything to improve public schools they would have if their kids went there, those parents are NOT selfish and do not express the attitude I commented on.

[emdee]

269. Are you practicing what you preach?

Does that attitude only apply to homeschooling? Or, for example, if you aren't involved in the Girl Scouts - are you doing everything possible to make sure they are meeting high expectations? Are you involved in everything you -um- aren't involved in? Sounds sort of silly, doesn't it? It is. Please tell us about your own actions and activities as an example. Thank you.

I *am* involved in helping the school system improve in several ways - my votes, letters to representatives, donating articles needed, helping other parents, etc. But, believe me - they wouldn't allow me to walk the halls when I don't have a child there - and probably wouldn't allow it even if I did.
emdee

[emdee]

253. That's ridiculous. nt

nt

[daisygirl]

56. Couple things mongo didn't mention

Not that he should've needed to in the first place, but since you seem determined to take his remarks out of context and twist them to suit your own purposes:

1) The religious assemblies were mandatory, not optional. The school district was trying to indoctrinate our kid in the religion of their choice. On what planet is it hatred to feel that it was our right to raise her in our own religion?

2) The teachers were asking all the classes to please come forth with anything the students might possibly have heard that could indicate violence. A witch hunt ensued. She was expelled from school for the remainder of that school year and was charged with disorderly conduct (charges were dropped because they were without merit) for something that she was able to categorically prove that she did not do. Would you send a kid back into that school system?

(And for the record, she did go to the senior prom.)

Who said we didn't let her be among her peers? Mongo didn't; you did. She had plenty of access to her peers; she just didn't happen to spend her school day with them.

anyone a freeper for homeschooling, not at least in anything I wrote.
No, you just made comparisons to racism and segregation and implied that all homeschoolers teach creationism. Perhaps you might narrow that brush a bit.

[MichaelHarris]

75. she was

in a public school with manditory religious assemblies?

[daisygirl]

86. Yes.

Assemblies, which were led by a preacher and which could not be described as anything other than preaching, were held at both Christmas and Easter. No parental notification. No option to have her not attend. This is a public school system.

The next year (when she was no longer in that school system), it was claimed that the assemblies were optional, probably as a result of our complaints--but when a friend of hers tried to opt not to go, he was told he was required to attend.

[MichaelHarris]

99. ACLU

was that considered? My fear is that when we show a child we can run from a problem then we do them a disservice.

[daisygirl]

106. The ACLU did not respond to us.

One of mongo's posts has more details about that, I think post#101 but I could be mistaken.

(Edited for clarity.)

[mongo]

88. Yes

Welcome to Appalachia America.

[Zhade]

215. Religious assemblies in public schools are ILLEGAL.

There is NOTHING hateful about not wanting one's child subjected to unconstitutional religious assemblies.

(However, I think the answer is to fight more for our right to separation of church and state, not withdraw.)

[emdee]

63. Exactly...

our small community has many shining examples of home schoolers who have graduated and are either working or going to college. The two, maybe three, reasons the author claims are the only reasons in the world to choose homeschooling didn't cover my own reasons! LOL And, there are plenty of social activities that we are all involved with.

Throwing them into a closet with a few books is not the preferred method -- as some seem to think!!

Once again we see that choice is being attacked, actually. It is simply a choice -- a parent's choice. I have no preference for what others families should do but my husband and I have every right to choose what's best for us. And, in truth, homeschooling began with the most liberal of liberals from what I can remember.

emdee :shrug:

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sfwriter]

230. Huh? Dumbing down...

I'm sure a lot of anti-science, anti-social fundie schooling is dumbing down, but I plan to homeschool for exactly the opposite reason. Every kid I've known in the last ten years has been brighter and smarter than the schools they have attended.

I've watched the spark of curiosity and inquiry get bludgeoned into a nice neat little box while the torments of bullies and predators went unchallenged. And don't tell me that crap breeds character.

The only thing you can be sure of with a public school kid is that they will be exposed to a narrow cross-section of children their own age. They will learn to take standardized tests, parrot back the "right" answers and sell about a million candy bars and crap on behalf of the school.

They will get exposed to an ever encroaching corporate PR machine that taints the curriculum with pro-corporate propaganda. They will learn to STOP THINKING at the ring of a bell or the direction of their teacher and move on to another subject. That lesson is consistent for the duration of schooling. Programmed to jump when they are told, they will spend their lives fighting that instinct or give in to it.

Now I believe that quality public education is at the core of a civil society. I'll vote for every tax increase, bond measure, or repeal of the NCLB act. I won't send my child to a public school though unless I am satisfied at the quality of the teachers and curriculum.

As to socialization, I see that as a straw man. There are many, MANY opportunities for that with friends and like minded parents. There are extracurricular activities of all sorts, and they don't need to be restricted to one narrow strata of age and class.

But then, hell, I live in California. I have more options than some. If you are in backwoods Tennessee, your choices are limited and fundies may be your only support.

And yes, I have a kid, class of 2022 and another on the way (hopefully.) I've fought for and supported public education in every election since I was 18, I'm 36 now.

[fed-up]

5. I homeschooled my son-Your essay is based on false premises

The major reason I homeschooled was so that my one and only son could function as a THINKING, REASONING, member of society, able to participate in a democracy. I wanted him to be able to do more than "fill in the bubbles".

There were many other reasons, none of which are cited in your biased essay.

His kindergarten teacher did not know who he was, at least not based on his first report card that said she was worried about him not learning the letters of the alphabet because he had been out sick right before christmas. He knew the letters and was beginning to sound out words at home. She also said he was shy and withdrawn. Definitely not my child who was only shy for the first 5 minutes of meeting someone.

Was fear part of my decision? Yes, on the day the power went out due to a snow storm they asked the kids if it was okay for them to go home at 10:00 am. without first making a phone call as there was only one phone that was working. I was at the school that morning volunteering at the book sale. Kids were sent home on the bus without knowing if there was an adult at home to a house with NO POWER and most had wood burning stoves as a means for heat. NOT a good idea. The principal and superintendant told me I was "overly concerned".

I ran a family day care at the time and had the only African American family in our neighborhood as clients, so to say I homeschooled because of racism is utter bullsh*t.

When my son did go back to public school in 3rd grade when we took care of my mother after her stroke at the end of the year I had a 4" thick stack of ditto sheets that he had completed. Nothing like reading/regurgitating. Art and science were given one hour each a week as the teacher said she did not have time to teach them as they were "not on the test".

He homeschooled again from 6-10th grade and had schoolmates of a variety of ages/races. Public schools artificially segregate students based on age, most homeschools offer a variety of activities with mixed age groups.

When he went back to public high school as a junior he did fine socially and was even elected president of the green party due to his outgoing, friendly nature and his knowledge of issues and ability to speak in public. I credit the theater classes he took in homeschool for his public speaking ability. He also was able to take classes at the junior college while a freshman and sophmore in high school. He was surpised at the uninformed, bigoted, prejudiced attitudes of the "older kids" (18-21 year olds) that were in his sociology class.

Homeschoolers are given a much greater range of options to demonstrate knowledge and reasoning ability and this in turn helps develop the critical thinking skills that are so absolutely necessary to function in a democracy. Most public school students are great at watching the bullcr*p that passes for TV news and repeating the talking points without processing or questioning the information (lies mostly) that is given. Many homeschool students are taught to question everything and to look for facts to back up their opinions, which obviously you have failed to do.

edited to add:
Please do not paint all homeschoolers with the same brush, there are many, many reasons parents homeschool.

How is my 17 year old son doing now? He is currently at the local junior college (with a scholarship) taking Anatomy & Physiology (getting an A), Creative Writing, Algebra, Comparative Politics and piano and doing quite well. He wants to teach English as a second language in Japan and has made friends with many of the exchange students that ride the bus with him.

edited again to fix another typo-still early here in CA

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. So you got mad and pulled your kid out

That's why most of the families I know homeschool. We had a similar situation happen when my son was in elementary school when we had a bad weather day. But instead of pulling him out, I called the supt. When he didn't give me the answer I wanted, I talked to the school board. And they changed their policy. They now NEVER send kids home early without contacting parents INDIVIDUALLY.

Sometimes staying in the system and fighting it is smarter than abandoning it. It's also better for the kids.

[fed-up]

9. I called the supe and went to a board meeting and I got the same response

If I recall correctly you are a public school teacher, so I understand your bias against homeschooling.

My son is doing fine, so neither you nor I can make the judgement that all public schooling would have been better.

Since he had both public/homeschool (and had some great teachers for govt/history/english in public school) I will never know which to credit for how he turned out so well-rounded.

And yes, I do know where he is on Friday nights, that is when he plays Vampire (a roleplaying game) and on Saturdays he sneaks over to his girlfriend of 2 1/2 years as she is Laotian and her parents will not let her date a "white boy"....

edited to correct some of my gramatical errors (not enough coffee yet) and to add that many of the kids that my son homeschooled with (at the local public charter school) are now active in politics. The homeschool was set up by the many in the progressive community that wanted more options for their kids. Butte County is very RED and so are the attitudes of many of the teachers.

I also want to add that I was heavily influenced by many of the books I read in the 1960's-70's in favor of open education and homeschooling.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Well we aren't going to agree on this

So I will bid you good day.

[qanda]

16. Thank you

I was going to respond to the original article but I decided not to waste my time. I'm a black home schooler and I know many other black home schoolers. In fact, I belong to a group of over 200 black home schoolers. People home school for a wide variety of reasons, none of which need to be explained to anyone because this is still a free country.

[MichaelHarris]

47. why

none of which need to be explained to anyone because this is still a free country

Sure you don't have to explain but it would be interesting to discuss. Espcially since we have a president that says, "I invaded a country and I don't have to explain why"

[qanda]

60. No thanks

I'd rather not face your judgment about my motives.

[MichaelHarris]

102. you're choice n/t

[emdee]

137. MichaelHarris, MichaelHarris, MichaelHarris,

qanda is not a choice.

Stop making me do that! LOL
emdee

[emdee]

68. Hey qanda!

How are you, friend? I hope all is well with you and yours.

You are correct --- homeschooling is a choice. And, if it is taken from us, what other freedoms may be taken as well? I'm surprised to see such intolerance on the subject HERE, actually.

edited to add: I, also, do not feel the need for approval on why I chose to home school and how I would answer to the false accusations of the writer.

emdee

[qanda]

69. EMDEE!!!!

I love you and miss you girl. How are things going? Sorry I haven't been in touch, we have been so busy with school and all. I hope everything is well with you and yours.

[emdee]

74. The last year has been hectic....

But, on the upside, we got wonderful news last week -- my dad's latest biopsy showed no signs of cancer!! Thanks to you and many other HOMESCHOOLERS for their thoughts and prayers. He does have windpipe damage which may cause problems but nothing like what we've been through, hopefully!!

How about you? ((Feel free to answer in email if you prefer.))

It's so good to hear from you.
Love ya back,
emdee

[qanda]

76. Oh, that is wonderful news

I am SO very happy for you and your family. I know that it's been a long road. I've been doing pretty good. There are new challenges, but I cannot complain. I'll try to update you later on by email.

[emdee]

80. I'll check in later....

for email. I miss our emails, girl!! But, time flies, doesn't it?

I don't know why time flies since home schooling evidently means locking the kids in a closet with a book or two and forgetting all about them! How can we be so dang busy? LOL

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

42. your first sentence

The major reason I homeschooled was so that my one and only son could function as a THINKING, REASONING, member of society, able to participate in a democracy

You took him out of a Democracy basically when you chose to homeschool him. Fear and protection won over Democracy here.

[Igel]

48. Your public school was run as a democracy?

Go figure.

Mine wasn't. It was backwards and taught poorly. The teachers that liked teaching there were incompetent, and knew they'd not survive elsewhere. Most of the teachers that were competent moved on to decent schools in Baltimore County as quickly as possible. A very few stayed because they thought they could make a difference; most of them also moved on. My guidance counselor got me pulled from 12th grade because there were no courses, apart from 12th grade English, that I could take--the idea of taking 12th grade English in 11th grade was resisted, and my parents didn't fight enough. One girl in my cohort did just that, and graduated a year early, to the chagrin of the psychologists.

My wife's school wasn't a democracy. It was also miserable, even apart from the racism she encountered. One teacher was competent, and he stayed because he liked living in the boonies of Arizona. He managed to get a little community college extension set up for the 2-3 kids that actually could handle the coursework. Her parents managed to overcome the school's deficiencies by the time their second and third kids were in high school; the first kid developed a loathing for stupid teachers while in high school, and claims he's found none but, even in college. He's smart. And certainly doesn't fit into a school-of-fish democracy. Public school left him hating school so much he didn't bother with college.

Our kid's going to be homeschooled, if we can manage it. No reason having him sit around for 8 hours a day to witness 2 hours' of teaching, and 6 hours of administrative nonsense, questions that he already knows the answers to, and scut work.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Bravo!

But beware. There are several homeschoolers here who will defend it to the nth degree.

I know, I don't get it either. I think your essay is right on. :yourock:

[MichaelHarris]

49. Thanks

P2BL, I knew it would inflame some but I got tired of hearing the rhetoric over and over without people speaking the truth. They complain about living in a country selling fear yet some chose to remove their children from public based on fear. I just don't get that. I only want them to address their fears and reasons.

[earth mom]

10. Parents who homeschool do so for a variety of reasons...

reasons that are as varied as there are parents in this country. Many parents these days are fed up with the bullying, the peer pressure, the loss of academic excellence in the form of No Child Left Behind. In addition, many parents these days are homeschooling because of the epidemic of children who have ADD, ADHD, Autism and Aspergers syndrome and most of these children just don't function well in a school setting.

BTW-The VERY last thing I am is a fundie but I believe in homeschooling a 100%. Your assumption and broad brush smear tactics serve what purpose exactly? :eyes:

I suggest YOU educate YOURSELF before posting tripe like this. :grr:

[gully]

12. Exactly.

!

[MichaelHarris]

52. only you know your reasons

are they fear? Fear from what? What reason could a person possibly have for pulling their child out of society at an age where interaction among their peers is most important? I don't need a response, I read the tone of your post. I only ask that you look at your reasons and see if fear played a part.

[earth mom]

78. Did you even read my post?

Let me make it clearer for you: some kids don't fit into the cookie cutter school setting. They are not learning, they aren't conforming to peer pressure and either feel left out or are bullied. Some kids have disabilities that make it difficult if not impossible for them to sit in a classroom all day and as a result they learn NOTHING.

Do you even have kids? Because if you do you would know that most parents want the best for their kids. They want their kids to be happy.

So given the option of having a kid who is learning nothing and/or having a kid that is bullied, what would YOU chose for YOUR OWN kid?

I doubt you would CHOOSE for YOUR kid to not learn or be beat up-figuratively or emotionally-every damn day. :eyes:

My advice: Don't knock it till you've tried it.

[MichaelHarris]

105. sure I've read it

will they always run away from bullies and problems?

[ND Pendie]

129. Is that what school is for?

To teach children to stand up to bullies? I can do that at home, in an environment filled with love, without compromising their education or their social development.

And by the way, your responses here sure have cast you more in the role of bully, than in the role of one who stands up to bullying.

[Dorian Gray]

229. There are many issues and instances mentioned in the post preceding yours

MichaelHarris, and you respond with this one sentence:

"will they always run away from bullies and problem."


I lean towards thinking homeschooling is NOT a good idea, but I find the arrogance in the assumptions you are making about fellow DU posters to be a little disturbing. The insinuations are bordering on rude.

Homeschooling is not always a cut and dried thing. People make their choices for a variety of reasons. There are a number of fundy idiots who will choose homeschooling so their children won't have to face regular teenage issues. And there are others who will choose homeschooling because they just don't like school. And then there are others who are in unique positions who can provide their children with the best education possible by homeschooling. They join homeschooling associations to bring their children to museums, art classes, sports teams, etc. They have advanced curriculum that really challenges the students. And they have a network of friends and parents who truly teach the children about life, socialization, and academics.

I find the assumptions that parents who choose homeschooling are giving up, running away, or segregating to be distasteful and insulting.

[Lucy - Claire]

244. Yes they can be left to cope with bullies..that are ignored by

the teachers. They can learn that gangs can beat them up, call them names, ruined their clothes and
even haressed them at home. They can learn that nobody will stop them, not matter how mauch the child's parents complain. They learn at 10 to cope with being hated and that they are worthless. And they then make it worsre because the stress makes them over eat, so they are picked on more from being flat. It is much better to drag your terrified child to school, who wet the bed in the night and cries all the time. Just tell the child, it will help them to cope with the world. A child will be so encouraged that the world outside school, is just as vile and they will also be hated be society, that they take a massive overdose and the parent has to bury their 14 year old.
I was picked on, name called and sexually assulted in school, I was bullied by teachers too because I was an undiagnosed dyslexic. How can you tell a teacher that bullies you, that the boy he makes you sit next to, punches you in the stomach everytime he passes? When you try and tell a teacher they laugh at you. A friend of mine at a different school, was chased throught the school, cornered, beaten so badly, she had a broken arm, two cracked ribs and a split lip. The gang were suspended for a week, my friend had to miss her GCSE's.
Yes there is an element of fear for my child because she is the most precious thing in my life and it is my job to keep her safe as well as to help her grow into a productive member of society. If she is subjected to half the bullying I was, she is going to struggle to achieve anything. I have worked in school admissions since. I have come across that most terrible insidences of bullying, including sexual assault, battery and gang assaults. This is in a leafy green part of London. My friends that are teachers, all hate it because the children are impossible to control, they rarely get to teach. One friend of mine, has actually been stalked by on of her students. She was subjected to hate mail, sexually suggestive mail and torrents of abuse.

Now I don't get the impression that you actually have children, your comments seem to be about theoretical parenting.
But if you do have a child, what would you do if that child came home with a bloody nose, or started to wet the bed, even though he or she stopped that years before. What is your child was withdrawn and screamed in terror everytime you went to school. You talk to the teachers, they do nothing, what then. Great fit the system in the mean time the bullying is getting worse for your child.
And what if your child had dyslexia or Asperger's and the school did nothing to help but dump them into the remedial classes, were they get ignored because they are the least needy kid in the class?

[bleedingheart]

134. my son with Asperger's benefits from public schooling

I help him at home with schoolwork, but he has improved dramatically with therapy and interaction with his peers more than locking him away from the world.

One day I will be gone...he needs to know how to deal with the world.

[gully]

11. Your post is bigoted against home schoolers.

So where’s the onion? A large percentage of people who home school can be seen as onions. As you peel away the layers, or excuses you begin to see racism, white seperationisn, and race mixing as an excuse. No matter what excuse one gives for home schooling if you dig you are very likely to find this to be the reason. In this day and age none will admit it but it surely must be there. Discuss this with people who home school, when pressed you’ll see a glimmer of racism.

The rationale for homeschooling fundie kids has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with brainwashing and not wanting kids exposed to other viewpoints. Check the forums here, DU has a "homeschooling" group and I doubt no matter how many "layers" you peel away - you'll find racism.

You need to clarify your post to discuss the particular HOME SCHOOLERS it is directed at, as your argument as it stands, is no more credible than the person you are responding to.

[trogdor]

24. "better education at home" is code talk for fundy-ism.

I'd bet that's the case most of the time, where fundy's feel it's not the government's business.

[Igel]

50. That's nonsense.

Over half of homeschoolers aren't fundies. But don't let the facts disturb your stereotype.

"Fundy's" is genitive singular, not nominative plural.

[rinsd]

95. ZING!

[ProfessorPlum]

247. One of the many reasons we are trying teaching our kids at home

is to keep them away from the fundy influences that are pervading the public school.

Imagine being able to actually teach your kids about evolution.

If you think that public schools are oases of democratic and Democratic ideals come to life, you are sadly mistaken. The GOP, always angry at having to pay taxes for something that doesn't directly benefit them immediately, have tried to destroy public schooling and they've damn near succeeded.

Meanwhile, our home education WILL be filled with humanistic and Democratic ideals. And that will be a few more people in the future who know not to watch Fox News and automatically believe what they hear. For that you should be thankful.

[proud2BlibKansan]

28. Bigoted?

That is a ridiculous accusation.

[gully]

115. Bologna!

It's "ridiculous" to call homeschoolers racist!

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. And it is ridiculous to accuse this OP poster of racism

[gully]

148. Bigotry is not racism

look it up.

big‧ot  /ˈbɪgət/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation – noun

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

[MichaelHarris]

53. Only way

I can respond to that is define "Better education at home" What can that possibly mean? When a person pulls a child out of a public school they are wanting to get away from something, what is that something? That's all I ask. To take a child from school is seperating them from something.

[gully]

118. You don't get it.

Kids learn at different paces and as such are often either labeled as "gifted" or "learning disabled" - these kids do get a BETTER education at home (one on one.) You are choosing to translate and define the reasons for others based upon YOUR inaccurate stereotype.

[fed-up]

13. And exactly how many homeschoolers do you personally know??? nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

14. Ten years ago, I would have agreed, but

I think some of today's homeschoolers have the opposite reason: their local public schools are too conservative and spend so much time on testing that they forget learning.

I would prefer to see such parents join with other like-minded parents and fight their school board, just as the fundies do, but I don't think you can stereotype homeschoolers anymore.

The one concern I have is the potential for a child to be in the range of a control freak, helicopter parent all day. If my mother had homeschooled me, she would have been one of those, and I've read articles about even more freaky homeschoolers, such as one in Minneapolis who was making her 18-year-old daughter take correspondence courses instead of going to college (even though there are plenty of fundie colleges).

[dogday]

15. I thought about home-schooling but decided to let my

daughter attend regular school... I don't like it that all they do is study to pass a test every year at public school... That is all they do....


I think parents have the right to do what they think are in the best interest of their child, and who are we to judge what a parent thinks is best? I wouldn't want some Polly-Anna telling me how to raise and educate my child, so I believe if parents want to do it, more power to them....

There is a big problem with wanting to force opinions into the lives of others... Why can't people just learn to stay out of other people's business???

[GoddessOfGuinness]

272. Thank you.

It's all about options, really.

I want what's best for my child, which is different from what is best for other people's children. He's happy, he's learning, and he's happy learning. He's involved in a number of activities that allow him to socialize and work in teams with other kids of varying ages, genders, ethnicities, religions, and sexual orientations.

Since neither my husband nor I has a 9-5 job, we're able to spend time with our son that we wouldn't have if he was in a public or private school setting.

I would never be so presumptuous as to tell someone that they should re-think putting their kids in public school. I fail to understand why others can't at least make an effort to see where homeschooling parents are really coming from, rather than picking up the latest catch phrase and condemning them with it.

[immoderate]

17. The main argument here is a fallacy.

It's a version of the forced choice fallacy. There can be many reasons that parents home school their kids. I saw one that wasn't mentioned. Parents had their kids working in the family business. Perhaps not the most idealistic of reasons, it served as educational experience, and certainly has advantages, especially if the children were brought into managemant functions of the business. Most of the few I've encountered had a religious reason. And there were some who expressed educational concerns. There are many places that the schools are overburdened and move too slowly.

--IMM

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I'd love to know what he means by "a large percentage".

Not one of the homeschoolers I know is in any way motivated by racism.

This article is very poor writing, I think - it makes very sweeping and highly offensive claims but doesn't cite any evidence to support them whatsoever. Even if it's right - which I don't think it is - it's still a good example of how *not* to put together an argument.

[MUSTANG_2004]

223. Perhaps multiple anecdotes = large percentage? nt

[Patiod]

19. Some liberal Quakers I know are home schooling

because their son wasn't functioning well, even in a Friend's School, which is small and flexible enough to accommodate a wide range of learning styles (plus there are area Friends Schools targeted just to those with learning disabilities).

At this point in his development he just isn't cut out for conventional classroom environment of ANY type. The Mom has a degree in education, and is homeschooling right now. No racism, no religious issues, no problem with either public OR religous education, just a kid not ready for classroom learning, no matter how unbound and hands-on. Why force a square peg into a round hole at this point?

[Liberty Belle]

20. Homeschooling for those reasons is wrong, but that's not the whole story.

I believe home schooling in general in a dangerous trend and that barring a very legitimate rationale, children should have to go to public schools or private schools that have some reasonable regulation by the state for safety and curriculum standards.

There are, however, some less common but legitimate reasons for homeschooling.

My daughter was a competitive figure skater. The local rinks did not offer enough quiet ice time before or after school for skaters doing double or triple jumps to practice. We home-schooled her in one subject for a while so she could go late to school.

The highest-level competitive skaters are nearly all 100% home-schooled (or live in areas with more ice time than Southern California, or cold enough for backyard rinks). It is simply impossible to get several hours a day of ice time needed to compete at the highest levels of the sport and be in school full-time. I imagine there are athletes in other sports who face similar issues, as well as some students who are actors, musicians, as well as some with serious medical conditions.

[bumblebee1]

30. Somehow, the Russians managed to stay competitive.

They don't have the luxury of homeschooling. Their school age skaters have to go to school, whether it's a school for elite athletes or a regular school.

[Liberty Belle]

39. The Russians took kids away from parents and forced them to

go to special skating schools and live far away from home. This happened to one of my daughter's coaches, a former Russian national champion and World bronze medalist. He was taken from home at age 11 by the Soviet government, which would identify children with talents in athletics, music, and dance at an early age and force them into special academies.

Not exactly a preferred system, in my view.

[ryanus]

21. I homeschool. You're wrong

My wife and I homeschool because we think we can do a better job opening up the kids' minds. We are giving them a classic liberal education. Our philosophy is that we want to teach them how to live well, which goes way beyond academics. The public schools we have found do not offer the broad range of topics we cover, and what they do cover takes way too long. We have lots of homeschool groups that we do things with during the week.

The homeschoolers I know do it for many different reasons. Generally, though, they do it because they feel the public schools aren't doing a good enough job. I would also say that homeschoolers are ones that break the trends in other ways, too. And when non-homeschoolers try to understand what motivates homeschoolers, they look at it through their own perspective and often misunderstand. These are usually the ones that don't break the trends.

[Dora]

22. Please read this. Your assumptions and generalizations can be remedied.

Please think about this: Many of your fellow American progressives, liberals, Democrats, have chosen/choose/will continue to choose educating their children at home. The decision to home school a child is influenced by our societal and/or personal values - intolerance or love, religiosity or philosophy, fear or courage. Some people teach their children well, some teach them not at all.

So that you understsand what experience my answer stems from, I must tell you that I am the child of teachers. I have been witness to the travails of modern public education for my entire life. From the 1960's until today, both of my parents have taught children, and they have taught adults who want to become teachers themselves. I worked for years in an organization that supported the grass-roots efforts of public school teachers to reclaim their status as professionals in the classroom, rather than dim automatons drilling students with teach-to-the-test bytes of information seived from mass-produced and societaly irrelevant curriculums. My experience is real and personal, and my opinions are born of observation, not idle thought.

I would like to share an anecdote about the results of homeschooling. My mother teaches language arts methods and children's literature courses: that's the Readin' and Writin' part of the "Three R's," and it's required coursework for Ed. majors. Last year was the first time she had students who had been homeschooled in her clasroom. These young women were from different parts of the state and had been raised and schooled quite differently. One young woman was a fill-in-the-blanks kind of student who openly professed her faith in the classroom. She was resistant to class assignments that requred observation-based research rather than class materials. The other student that had been home-schooled was a quick thinker who excelled at qualitative research, and actively participated in classroom dialogues on the pros and cons of NCLB. My mother was impressed by her mind and her self-presentation.

I share this anecdote with you so that you might understand that homeschooling results may vary - for the good as well as the bad. For several years now, colleges and universities across the country have been examining and revising undergraduate admissions criteria in order to accomodate the educational experience of homeschooled students. Another personal anecdote: I went through graduate school with a student who had been homeschooled. This grad program was intensely competitive: the year I applied, only ten students out of 300+ were accepted. The year he applied and was admitted, more than 400 students had applied. Sam, my peer, was an excellent writer with a sharp intellect and a compassionate heart. His years of homeschool had resulted in a thoughtful and intellectual member of society; it did not result in a racist, fear-filled hate-monger as you suggest homeschooling is prone to do.

Because your ideas/opinions may be partially true, you seem to think that they are the entire truth. But the nature of truth is like a brilliant diamond, with many facets all shining brilliantly. The bright facet you're looking at is not the same bright facet that I'm looking at. But the truth, the diamond, is still what it is, despite our different perspectives. Homeschooling is not the only answer to teaching our children well, but it is one of many answers, and it is an answer that deserves to be discussed with depth and curiousity, rather than a simple dismissal based on erroneous assumptions about intolerance and racism.

[qanda]

23. Bravo

Your response gave me chills.

[Dora]

25. You want to know what gives me chills?

Hearing my mother say that after witnessing the slow destruction of our public schools, she's reached the conclusion that if she had children today, she would choose to homeschool. The sadness with which she says this is heartbreaking.

Thanks for the support.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. All the more reason to speak out and work hard to

get rid of NCLB. That is a far more productive idea than abandoning public schools.

[Dora]

36. Spare me.

You have NO idea how much my mother and her peers have labored and wept over the years fighting conservative efforts to destroy the professional status of teachers as well as advocating for the intellectual and social needs of children.

:grr: How glib of you to accuse my mother, a professional of 40+ years experience in the PUBLIC schools, who began first by teaching, then by supervising HeadStart programs at their blessed inception in the 60's, then taught kindergarteners, and first and second and third graders, who ran a public school library for years, founded Young Authors programmes in our state, risked her retirement in order to start an organization that connected researchers with practicing teachers in order to foster meaningful dialogues that ultimately resulted in thoughtful classroom practices that teach the child rather than teach to the test... a woman with no plans yet to retire... HOW DARE YOU accuse her of "abandoning public schools" simply because her opinion on homeschooling is different from yours?

She hasn't simply been in the trenches fighting the fight to defend our schools and classrooms, she was on the front lines of the defense digging those damn trenches thirty years ago so that those who came after her have the shelter and defenses they need. You should be saying "thank you."

[proud2BlibKansan]

142. Learn to read

I never accused your mother of anything. :eyes:

[Dora]

151. Don't be disingenuous. Your accusation was implicit in your comparison.

"That is a far more productive idea than abandoning public schools."

:eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

158. Your mother abadnoned public schools?

Maybe I am the one who missed something in your post.

[Dora]

165. Yes, you are missing something.

A clue.

[Extend a Hand]

62. I wish I could recommend your response for greatest page.

[Dora]

90. Thanks! n/t

[MissB]

107. Thank you for this.

Your last paragraph was stunning. :)

I chose not to homeschool, although frankly it was my first choice to do so. My dh and I settled on moving into a better school district.

Even though my kids go to a superb public school, I still teach them outside of the school. I don't understand how parents avoid that - I simply cannot imagine leaving my children's education entirely up to the school. Math and science instruction in the elementary school years is insufficient, imho. Science isn't approached in any real serious way until 5th grade. It needs to be a daily topic, not one covered one hour a week, or for a few weeks each trimester. Although our school does not specifically teach to the test, the math instruction leaves a great deal to be desired.

It seems the OP left out the whole idea of secular homeschooling in his essay. It is a shame, really.

[Dora]

153. Thanks. The real shame is that the OP has no real interest in the subject.

He only wants to piss people off. Yet another incurious blowhard posting crap.

[emdee]

162. I haven't seen him comment on one positive point.

I wish I'd realized sooner that he wasn't interested in an actual discussion.
emdee

[MichaelHarris]

164. Now that

was the post that really tells the story.

[cap]

31. question: What parent has ever admitted that homeschooling was a mistake?

all systems have failures.... ALL...

Homeschooling is NOT a perfect solution. So, what is the failure rate? How many parents are up on dissecting frogs? Genetic engineering? Multicultural systems? How about socializing and dating with other kids from different backgrounds: rich and poor, all races and religions.

Giving your kids the 3Rs will not outfit them for life. Many people are trying to give their kids their own PAST educational experience which outfits kids for a world that doesnt exist anymore. Teaching methods change because society has changed. There very few parents who can dissect frogs, teach the human genome, conduct paper chromatography experience and have the sewer systems that can handle chemical experiments, never mind actually teach electricity and schematic diagrams, speak to a child fluently in a foreign language and teach them how to read and write in that foreign language, teach them new theories in sociology and history and how to integrate them into current affairs, computer technology (not just word, but computer theory is changing).

I have never heard a parent state that they failed their child by homeschooling. This is what frightens me. There are failures somewhere.... What are they and why? They are not reported. At what point, should society demand that the child be reintegrated back into the public school system because their own parent has failed them. I've never heard of a school system demand that a parent bring a kid back to school. Yes, there are tests that are given to homeschoolers but who enforces the results of those tests? No one. Your kid could flunk out and no one comes back to them to say your parent failed you and you need to return to class.

Also, since No Child Left Behind is soooo great for the public school system for accountability, why isnt NCLB dished out to the private schools and the home schoolers? I'd love to see homeschool parents go through the same crap that public schools do.

[ryanus]

32. What are you talking about?

I personally know people who have tried homeschooling and then stopped and sent their kids back to public school.

[qanda]

35. You obviously have *NO* idea what you're talking about

There are a ton of resources available to home schoolers, including co-ops, community college, distance learning programs, the internet, libraries, field trips, videos, and the list goes on and on. The majority of states have strict regulations which govern home schoolers and I know of many people who decide to home school for as long as they are able and then send their children to public or private school. If you don't know what you're talking about, why are you just making stuff up? Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. You guys crack me up!

[earth mom]

51. You have NO idea what you are talking about!

Most states have guidelines for homeschooling. In my state, homeschooled students must take the state mandated test that kids who go to public schools must take in the 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10th grade. If your homeschooled kid doesn't pass, than back to public school they must go! And as for getting a good education, how about finding out that your kid who attended public school their whole life is doing math several grades below what they should be doing?! WTF?! And public schools are doing such a great job teaching our kids?! I think not! :grr:

[MichaelHarris]

70. amen

how many parents have a full chemistry lab in their house? Well unless they cook meth.

[cap]

79. or have the training to handle chemicals?

or have a hood to conduct chemical experiments in...

My problem is accountability.... You have a couple years in between these tests. Also, where is the enforcement? If you are thinking that you can still carry on when your child fails, who demands that your kid goes back to public school. What government official comes to your house when your kid is failing and demands to take your child back into the school system?

[MUSTANG_2004]

210. We handle chemicals every day

You don't need training to handle chemicals. Even somewhat dangerous chemicals. Did you go for training the last time you poured anti-freeze into your radiator? What about when you added chlorine to a swimming pool?

That said, truly dangerous chemicals don't belong in homeschooling chemistry, nor do they belong in high school chemistry.

As far as accountability, in Florida it's an annual evaluation. I don't know what they'd do to a parent whose child goes to below par and refuses to send the child back to school. Presumably that would be treated the same as any other parent who didn't send their child to school as required by law.

[rockymountaindem]

81. Few, but

There are programs for homeschoolers to take advantage of which cover these areas. Childrens' museums, regular museums, community colleges, and other programs all offer the opportunity for anyone who wants to become involved. I know of homeschoolers who regularly take advantage of things like that. Some of them had even dissected more animals than I did in my public school class, because there wasn't a whole lot of money in the budget for things other than frogs and worms. These homeschoolers got to work on squids, sharks, cats etc. Public school kids didn't.

For every hypothetical and anecdote you can come up with, there's a homeschool family (or lots of them) to refute it. Don't waste your effort.

[MissB]

108. Have you checked out elementary/middle school chemistry

lately? You'd be surprised how dumbed down things are - for fear of someone getting hurt. The types of experiments that I was able to conduct in middle school aren't found in the curriculum today.

[MUSTANG_2004]

208. Actually, you don't need a full chemistry lab

I can, in no uncertain terms, say I learned more chemistry at home working with commonly available chemicals than I ever did in chemistry class.

Full disclosure: My father was a chemist, so there was definitely more knowledge than is available to most, but my point is that expensive equipment and chemicals are not necessary for learning chemistry. If anything, it makes it more real. In chemistry class, we'd mix a variety of chemicals together, get some reaction that we'd note in the logbook, and then move on. But when dealing with "kitchen chemistry" you see real life chemicals that you're familiar with, and watching them react makes much more of an impression. Think of it as the difference between a child seeing a lion at the zoo vs. catching a garter snake in the backyard. The first is remote enough to be ho-hum, while the 2nd is endlessly fascinating.

[bleedingheart]

136. I have met parents who end up putting their cyber schooled or home

schooled children back in public school...

I meet a lot of parents who start out thinking they can do it...but they just can't. Either their other children, money or even home problems become impediments.

Kudos to the folks who can do it successfully but most who can't just quietly place their kids back into the system.

One young man was schooled at home because his parents thought it would be better for him since he was getting picked on due to his autistic disorder....then they felt they couldn't do it anymore and now he is back in public school and totally lost socially...he missed out on three years of peer interaction and now he is behind socially and even more upset....that is sad.

[ryanus]

33. I am amazed and ashamed

The ignorance and prejudice by some on this thread truly amazes me. Some of you are just making up in your mind how you think homeschoolers think, how they do it, and how the kids turn out.

You accuse homeschoolers of being selfish?
You accuse homeschoolers of keeping their kids away from others?
You accuse homeschoolers of being racist, fundie, and close-minded?
You accuse homeschoolers of just teaching the three R's?

You people make me sick. Have you thought that maybe you are the type of people that homeschoolers do not want to have teach their kids? Talk about brainwashed.

[MichaelHarris]

73. OK

what do you want to SEPARATE your children from?

[emdee]

87. You mean "separate" don't you?

Home schooling is a CHOICE pure and simple.
Are you against choice?
Do you feel the need to delve so deeply into every choice a person or family makes - do you think they need your approval?

This can't be DU! Never has choice been so attacked at DU - is this some alternate universe?

emdee

[ryanus]

97. What do you mean?

You don't see that you have all these preconceived notions about why I homeschool?

Why are you asking me what I am trying to separate my kids from? If your kid doesn't join the track team, but instead joins the rock-climbing club, would I ask, "What about track are you trying to separate your kid from?"

If you quit one job and go to another, should I ask you, "What are you trying to separate yourself from?"

Get a clue! I think I can do a better job teaching my kids and showing them how to make the most of their lives. We are not hiding from anything.

I can't believe some people. You seriously need to drop some prejudices.

[riderinthestorm]

34. Religious fundamentalism is the root cause for the 3 families I know

who home-school their children. They outright state that they are primarily interested in keeping their children away from the "evil influences" (their words, not mine) of a secular education and "others" who aren't Christian. They honestly believe that going to school with children who aren't Christian will somehow lead their own children astray.

I had one person (my farrier, a man I spend a lot of time with since I'm holding recalcitrant horses for him) actually tell me they "teach the devil" in the public schools and that is why he home schools.

One day, for whatever reason - probably to get a rise out of him since he irks me, I told him I was reading The Religions of Man, he actually shrank back in alarm and warned me that it was a "bad book". He used to stay with us when he came to shoe horses since he lives so far away but ever since that conversation he's gotten a motel room - I guess so he won't be tempted by my wickedness!


:evilfrown:

[laundry_queen]

41. And I know many families who homeschool

to keep their kids AWAY from the fundie influences of kids who shout in the playground "you're going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus!".

Homeschooling done "right" doesn't have to mean isolating a child. Because homeschooling can be done in such a short period of time each day VS the whole day for public school, many homeschooling parents enter their children into plenty of extra activities, sometimes with other homeschooling families, during the day, so these children are not 'socially stunted'. In fact, I'd go so far as to say with good effort by the parents, homeschooled children probably have a healthier socialization, with people of all ages, as opposed to those in public schools who are mostly with children their own age for 6 hours a day.

That said, I send my kids to public school. I'm in Canada though, if we did ever move to the US, dh and I have agreed we would not be sending our children to public school. We are lucky our school is one of the best in the province and my children are in a French Immersion program. Arts and music are done 2-3 times a week. I'm pleased with the education my kids are receiving, and at the same time, I have no ill will against those homeschoolers who are doing their darnedest to better the education of their children.
Now those who homeschool only to teach stuff like 'intelligent design'...well. that's a whole other world than the one I'm familiar with.

[Bridget Burke]

58. There are plenty of good Public Schools in the USA.

If you MUST move here, research the schools in the area.

[laundry_queen]

138. I'm sure there are and I'm sure we would research.

However we do NOT plan on moving any time soon, not until the chimp and all the repubs are out of power. So it's a moot point right now.

[Bridget Burke]

245. I'm Glad.

Not about the school thing.

But this is NOT the time to move to the USA. Hope we can get it fixed up....

[girl gone mad]

38. I think your attitude shows a lot of ignorance.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to put forward a counter-argument because I'm on my way out the door to take my son to a science class for homeschooled children at the local museum. The 10 to 12 year olds in this class are studying biology at the high school level and beyond. After that he's got rock climbing then college algebra II and chemistry I (college level). Tonight his Chinese tutor is taking him to a party with Chinese-American children.

Maybe around 10 I'll have time to explain why I think your essay is so inaccurate.

[philly_bob]

40. Home Schooling stories

Once I was visiting a relative in Virginia, somewhere on the border between Suburbia and Rural. And for some reason, we had to go next door to a neighbor's, who was a home-schooler; a fundamentalist type.

I saw a harassed mother (the patriarchal father was noticeable by his absence) and three miserable kids who all had running noses, seemed out of control, and were overexcited at the presence of outsiders. It was a glimpse of educational hell. I used to be a first-grade teacher, and I'm quite certain that those kids would have been better off in a school.

Two other quick stories:

(1) As I understand it, Rick Santorum homeschools all his kids in DC on the tab of Pennsylvania taxpayers.

(2) I had a progressive friend (male) who home-schooled and I think he did a good job.

My conclusion: if you're going to allow home-schooling, there has to be some sort of monitoring. Someday, when the stories come out about the abuse that occurred in situations like the Virginia fundamentalist situation, people will say "You allowed this?"

Tentative secondary conclusion: Would be nice to know how home-schooling affects kids' immune systems and health. The kids I saw in Virginia were so ill, I would have kept them "home from school" to recuperate. Not an option for them.

Bob=

[tomreedtoon]

43. Say it simply: "Home schooling is child abuse."

You could have saved the argument for someone who wanted more background. Simplify it into a slogan that sticks in the mind, and you may have a chance to save children from those Klansmen home-schooling facilities.

[Igel]

57. I knew two families in the church I attended that

homeschooled their kids.

The one pulled his son out for the kinds of reasons you assume are standard. The kid was failing anyway, and after 8th grade was barely at the 5th grade reading level; at 18 he was no better, his father had no discipline.

The other had two girls in school. The first (L.) just finished 8th grade, and was pulling Cs and Ds. And hanging around with a tough crowd. White, lower middle class. 9th grade was at home; L. placed in the top 10% for her age cohort after 9th grade. By the end of 10th grade she had new friends--racially mixed, and mixed by class, unlike what she self-selected in public school. L. spent those two years on community sports teams, working one afternoon a week in a homeless shelter, and in a community orchestra, not just at the dining room table. When her mother said, at the end of 10th grade, that she could go back to high school, the public school system said, "Not so fast. L. belongs in 12th grade." So she skipped a grade. Her little sister was homeschooled as well, and also skipped a grade.

Different motivations, different approaches, different curricula. One-size-fits-all slogans are for the kind of people L. had as friends in 8th grade.

[undeterred]

46. I taught for a correspondence high school for a while

and there were kids corresponding who lived in the inner city. They were doing correspondence school because their neighborhoods and schools were so rough that their parents did not want them in public schools. Too dangerous.

And there were the Christian kids. I taught biology- they had a choice of ecology (or non-evolution) vs evolution. It was a subtle way around the problem, and honestly, I like the idea of the Christian kids who thought the world was going to end being schooled in ecology. Both curricula were science based.

I think there are a lot different of reasons parents choose this. I even know some gay couples who homeschool to shield their kids from bigotry, at least until high school.

[neebob]

61. I have a friend who just started home schooling

the youngest of her two kids, because he has special needs and she doesn't feel his older sibling, now in high school, has been well served by public schools. She lives in Texas, too, and had a hard time finding a home schooling group that didn't want her to sign some kind of Biblical pledge. She did eventually find one - locally, I might add, and last I heard she was happy with it.

Did I mention my friend's an atheist and a liberal? So much for onions.

[MichaelHarris]

67. Couldn't respond to all the posts

so I'll do it here. Those that home school here seem to be an angry lot, I must have struck a nerve. Being a liberal home schooler does not make you immune from segregation, heck our hippy fore-fathers and mothers took their kids to communes to escape something. What is that something?

Those here that are defending home schools should look at what that "something" is. I hear poor teachers, bullies, ADD, I can do it better, and a host of other reasons. What I don't hear is what is that "something" that made you SEPARATE your child from society. Sure go ahead and say they get a sense of society when I home school. OK but you chose the society, not them. You SEPARATED them.

There is something you feared when you took them from a "normal" society and put them in one you created. You may tear me up but you feared something. You feared it enough to SEGREGATE your child. There is a part of society you didn't want your child to see or experience. I don't claim to know your reasons.

Asked was do I know home schoolers. Yes I do, many of them. I live in a small farming community and my wife is one of the town doctors. I can spew forth thousands of words with stories of my interactions with these kids but I won't. I'll only relate this, I started a discussion group with some of the youths here, both public schooled and home schooled. We discussed literature and cinema. Not one of the home schoolers had read "To Kill a Mockingbird", "Catcher in the Rye", or "On the Road". They had never even heard of those books. Citizen Kane to them had no meaning. Two of the girls in the group had only seen Disney movies her entire life, one of them is 21, the other 18.

One argument I didn't hear was "smaller classes". That could make sense, only if those smaller classes aren't hand-picked by like-minded people at the exclusion of others. Think about that statement, Hand-picked, like-minded, SEPARATION. Did fear cause the SEPARATION? Then what was that fear? Segregation doesn't only mean a seperation from different races.

[emdee]

84. An angry lot?

You don't want to discuss -- you want to argue.

I'll bet there are many things that you do that we might disagree with -- give us a list of your own wonderful parenting skills other than sending them off on the big yellow bus. I'll bet you've done a few things I could point at and say you shouldn't have done. Would you 'discuss' or 'argue'? Would you be an 'angry lot'? I think you would.

edited to add a question: tell us about your children. I asked this because usually those with tons of advice to others either (a) have no children or (b) are on their way to visit them IN PRISON. How do false assumptions feel now? (not said in an 'angry lot' manner at all --- I feel this is a valid question - what are YOUR credentials for the perfect parenting advice?) Cripes - now I have to watch my spelling so carefully after having corrected you! LOL

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

112. my wife and I

couldn't have children, we are in the process of adopting right now. Actually we should find out any day. I did however raise my two nephews and a niece. I did medical research for 12 years, consisting of aiding NIH medical students with their grants. I was a scout master for a number of years as well as working with the 4-H teaching photography. My time here is now spent with college students doing photography and holding discussions involving politics and cinema. Volunteer of course.

As far as the 2 nephews and niece? Two of them graduated from Texas A&M and one is in the Army.

[emdee]

126. Thank you for that update...

it is very frustrating to get parenting advice from people who have no business being parents to begin with! (not pointing a finger at you at all, just a general statement)

Now, you said that you were a scout master - I'm sure that I should NOT put you in the same category as some scout masters who have become famous for other things, such as child molestation, should I? So why in the world do you think that you can throw all home schoolers into one basket? And, since you do think that - it's evident - then why shouldn't *I* throw all scout masters into one as well?

If you don't think that most parents (no matter what choices they make that might not suit you) try to do the best they can with the resources they have, then I think you are dead wrong. Most people try to do their best. You seem to see evil in home schooling for some odd reason. That's sad because -for some families- it is wonderful. For some families it is not. The same could be said for whatever decisions we make: school choices, food choices, political choices, etc.

Your dehumanization of us is really scary, to be honest. Do you want to burn a cross in my yard or what? What should be done to stop me in my tracks? Think about that as you travel to my home, bypassing all of the child molesters' homes simply because they public school their children.

What right have you to judge us? As for your niece and nephews, I'm sure they are very nice. Your description, however, isn't better than any of the grown home school children I know. They are in college and making good grades or are working in good jobs for this area, which is very rural. I hope that your niece and nephews continue to thrive and do well. I also hope that you are able to adopt and raise your own child. However, as adults they won't beat out the kids I know who've been home schooled. I'm sure of it. Want to compare notes again in a few years to be sure?
emdee

[earth mom]

89. People on this thread are angry with YOU!

NOT angry in general! Your OP was totally insulting in case you didn't know! Boy, you seem to love the sweeping generalizations and broad brush smears! Not only that but you base your entire opinion on a small rural community that you personally deal with. Sorry, but that is NOT the entire country nor can it even be a sample of the entire country because rural communities are known for their narrow views. C'mon now, use some common sense. Because that is NOT the world many of us on DU live in. As I said before, educate yourself on this topic, try it for yourself if you even have kids and then get back to us. Otherwise, quit trying to put people into made up categories from your skewed outlook that they don't even belong in in the first place! :eyes:

[qanda]

98. Exactly

The original poster attacks an entire group of people with sweeping generalities and doesn't expect them to take up for themselves. I'm still looking for the angry responses. The responses on this thread have been well thought out and respectful. The OP took his little narrow view of this subject and then tried to fit every home schooler into it.

[Shrek]

103. I'll tell you what we're afraid of

Comma splices, poor spelling, and improper grammar.

What makes you so confident of your assertions? Probably you've never met most of us, and yet you feel entirely comfortable announcing that we homeschool because we gave in to our fear. Would you care to back any of this up with some actual evidence?

[MichaelHarris]

114. sure

why do you home school?

[MichaelHarris]

117. tell you what

since you are undoubtedly an excellent home schooler get out your red pen and "mark-up" the original post. That's the way public schools do it. I won't get my feelings hurt, I'm a product of the public school system after all. I didn't need to be pampered.

[ryanus]

116. Yes fear

Fear that my kids would waste their time sitting in chairs being told to be quiet.
Having their days allocated by ringing bells telling them when they can and can't move.
Not being exposed to mastery of Greek philosphy.
Not being exposed to the writings of the Iliad, in Greek, or the Gallic Wars, in Latin.
Not being able to spend more time than an hour at a time on subject, or being forced to spend an hour on a subject that only requires a few minutes.
Not being able to build a catapult for physics and geometry.
Not understanding how options and futures work.
Not understanding cashflow, negative amortization loans, and economics.
Not being allowed to daydream for awhile, or be able to go on long walks in the mountains observing nature.
Not being able to help at great-granmda's nursing home.
Not understanding Grammar (not just English Grammar), or Logic (not just Critical Thinking skills), or Rhetoric.
Not being able to visit actual historical place all over the country.
Not being able to grow a garden.
Not being able to learn computer skills to a deep level.
Not being able to take charge of projects and being part of leadership organizations.
Not understanding history of governance or political theory.
Being told when they have to show up, and what happens to them if they are late.
Being told where to sit, where to stand, when to talk.
Needing permission for everything.
Losing their curiosity.

Being forced to conform and told what is normal.
Being subject to idiots who think that their parents are actually abusing them by raising them this way.

[emdee]

130. Great post, ryanus!

:thumbsup:

[ND Pendie]

132. Bravo

I'd like to add to your list, but can't bring myself to do so.

You brought the truth. I'll let it stand on it's own merits. Well done.

[earth mom]

143. I'll second that BRAVO!

:applause:

[laundry_queen]

149. GREAT list! n/t

[gully]

123. Screw the Rove like arguments.

YOU refuse to think outside the box on education thus all those who home-school are bigots?

[laundry_queen]

145. You think school is 'normal' society??

LOL! As if anything about the here and now is 'normal' anymore!! How many people think torture is a great idea? How many believe Saddam still had something to do with 9/11? How many think the media is 'librul'?
You want your normal, you ain't gonna (lol) find it out there, or in your school.

[MUSTANG_2004]

202. That's what I've wondered

My home schooled kids constantly interact with adults and kids of all ages instead of being sequestered in a classroom with 30 other kids their same age.

[BigEdMustapha]

161. I'll bite - here are the fears that led to homeschooling

Fear that my sons would receive an average or sub-par education
Fear that my sons would be dumbed down and taught only how to take tests
Fear that my sons would not be exposed to more than what public schools can offer
The list goes on...

The one thing in your post that I take exception to is "what is that "something" that made you SEPARATE your child from society"

My children are far from separated from society - they play and interact with a variety of kids via homeschooling co-ops, sports, church and other activities. My children are exposed to adults and children, young and old, blacks, mexicans, whatever - nearly every day. So to say that homeschooling is an automatic withdrawal from society is just wrong.

When my sons get jobs and move into the "real world" will they be required only to deal with other people exactly their age? No. Will they deal with only people that reside within a few square miles of our house? No. I would argue that my sons are more exposed and in tune to society than 99% of kids who sit in a public school all day long.

[girl gone mad]

168. My son is not separated from society.

That's a ridiculous and biased assertion.

Firstly, he plays with friends from the neighborhood, a mix of lower class, middle class and upper class (hispanic, black and white in each class). We live in a neighborhood divided between sprawling lakeside mansions, smaller ranch homes and trailers. Some of his friends have jobless, alcoholic slacker parents and some have doctors and lawyers for parents. As long as the kids get along, we don't care about their family background.

Secondly, he attends weekly science classes with other homeschooled children. His lab partner is an African-American boy who lives 30 miles away in a pretty segregated inner city neighborhood. They call each other on the phone and have plans for a field trip and sleepover next weekend. In fact, they both decided to stay in this class after becoming friends last year.

Thirdly, my son attends rock climbing, art and robotics classes with other children. HE chose these activities, not me or my husband. We have no control over the other children who join these programs. We have no idea if their parents are liberal, conservative, Christian, atheist, etc. It never comes up.

We did not choose to homeschool our son out of fear. Quite the opposite. We chose homeschooling because he was bored with the curriculum and was struggling to make friends.

I would absolutely agree that homeschooling is not for everyone. It takes discipline and energy. It is a big commitment. I think most kids would be better off in public or private school, especially if the parents are not well educated and willing to make sacrifices and work to provide plenty of social and educational opportunities. However, to lump all homeschoolers together into one category and label it 'abusive' is simply wrong.

My child is well socialized and 6 years ahead of his peers in math and science. He writes and records techno music as good as people twice his age. He interacts with all different types of people. He even volunteers at the local food bank and animal shelter each week. He's not sheltered or isolated. Homeschooling works for us.

[fishwax]

238. So you haven't given up on that big, broad brush

that you used to smear all homeschoolers, eh?

All homsechoolers want either to separate the races or to deny evolution.

Gee, why would anyone be angry about an assertion like that?

[daisygirl]

256. You might want to consider

why it is that those of us who chose homeschooling are responding to your comments in a manner you consider to be "angry".

Perhaps we're a little tired of it being assumed that we prevent our children from contact with the outside world. Why is it that you so firmly believe that we don't let our children have contact with their peers or with other adults? While there is doubtless a subset of homeschoolers who shelter their children in a detrimental manner, the same is probably equally true of, say, certain numbers of people who send their kids to small private schools. My kid was not sheltered, deprived of contact with others, or any other such thing. We did not keep her locked in the house. School happened at home; otherwise, she had experiences identical to those of her peers.

Perhaps we're bothered by the many people who have the unmitigated gall to presume they know so much better than we do what's best for the well-being of our children. Perhaps we find it a little tiresome that other people hear "homeschooled" and automatically assume a poor education. (My daughter happens to have read all of those books you mentioned during the time she was schooled at home, in case you're curious.)

And perhaps your comments were, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, sweeping, generalized, and unnecessarily provocative in a manner that those of us who were unjustly labeled by those comments found to be spectacularly irritating.

[aikoaiko]

83. No one light a match -- all those straw men arguments might ignite.

Michael Harris, that was the most red herring filled essay I've ever seen on the matter of home schooling.

[Mountainman]

85. If fundies took over education in this country liberals would home school

I think.

[Dora]

92. It's not an if/then statement. It's happening now. n/t

[ND Pendie]

122. Yep, and I'm a liberal Home School Advocate.

And this rabid hatred of home schooling, born out of ignorance and cultured in misconception, is an embarrassment to everything for which liberalism stands.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. As is not participating in public education and working

to change it. How liberal is it to walk away from a school or a system, and not participate in a change effort? How liberal is it to criticize public education and do nothing to improve it? How liberal is it to take care of your own and ignore the rest of your community?

What you home schoolers don't realize is that a community is only as strong as its public schools. And the school is only as strong as the communtity it serves. This realization will hit you hard one day and it will most likely be too late then to fix it.

[rockymountaindem]

150. Even homeschoolers are part of the public school system

because they pay taxes that support the schools. Just because a parent is a homeschooler doesn't mean they've given up on the public school system. I bet you that a lot of them wish they could send their kid to a public school they believed in. Homeschooling is not the option of first resort.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. By not enrolling their kids in the local public school,

they are costing the school district money. Schools receive funding based on enrollment. So every kid who doesn't attend public school represents a loss of revenue.

[whopis01]

239. That is misleading

While an individual school may recieve less funding because a student is home schooled instead of attending it, overall school funding for the area is not cut. In fact, the average $/student funding increases. When a child is removed from the public school system, the total dollar amount in funding for the public school system is not reduced. It might be redistributed due to the new population distribution amongst the schools, but the overall dollar/student funding rate is increased.

That is of course unless vouchers are offered to those that pull their children out...

[youthere]

257. Not entirely true.

in SOME states that may be the case. In MOST states the child must still be registered in a school district. The school still receives enrollment money for the child even though they are not attending.

[Book Lover]

275. But if the district incurs no expense as regards the homeschooled chiuld,

then where is the loss to the district?

[MichaelHarris]

154. Well said

P2BL, a child's first sense of community begins in school. I know, I know alot of you you going to yell back at me and say NO!!!!! sense of community begins at home.

[proud2BlibKansan]

189. BEGINS at home

but it doesn't stay there, unless you are a hermit.

When I was in college and learning about cooperative learning (a method I think is fabulous, especially for elementary kids), we saw a film about a college in California that put every student in a study group. For every class the students took, they were divided into cooperative groups, for all 4 years. This college was notable for its success in placing its graduates in jobs. Employers sought out the graduates of this college, because they really knew how to work with their peers on a team. The skill of getting along with others and working in a group are more important in the work world than subject knowledge. Ask any employer.

[ryanus]

163. By this logic, people should move where schools are the worst

We should never here anyone talk about how good the schools are. We should hear how people want to move where the schools are the worst, so that they can go help fix them.

If you don't live in a bad neighborhood, then shame on you! That would be hypocritical. Go find some high-crime, low-income neighborhood somewhere and go help fix it. That's your responsbility, isn't it?

[MichaelHarris]

166. No

from what I gather from the people who home school is we should pull away from a society that is broken and can't be fixed. We should start our own world and let the other one die off.

[ryanus]

167. Well then you really are clueless

How many homeschoolers on this board gave you the impression that they are starting their own world and letting the other die off? Who was it?

Maybe you ought to check your prejudices and not conjure up in your head what you think homeschooling is all about. Maybe different people who homeschool have different ideas? Nah, I'm sure their all child abusing fundies who should be controlled. Right?

[MichaelHarris]

169. So

then you are trying to fix public education?

[ryanus]

171. What is it with the 'either\or' thinking?

I am trying to raise my kids the best way I can. Public school doesn't look like the best option, and the attempts I've had at changing it (talking to parents, the District Super, and the Board) didn't make any difference so I don't think my public schools are going to change anytime soon.

But why do you say 'fix' it? Are you saying it's broken? What do you think is wrong with it?

The way I see it, if all the other parents are generally satisfied, who am I to force them to change? Why not just teach my kids myself? That seems like the best thing for the community, does it not?

In fact, go find yourself some actual homeschoolers and you ask them how may times they've tried to 'fix' the public school where they live. Then ask them how many times other people have tried to 'fix' their homeschooling? See, you've got it backwards. Homeschoolers basically want to just be allowed to teach they way they want. It's the public school advocates that go after the homeschoolers, not the other way around.

Then homeschoolers start making great strides with perception of homeschooling, the kids are getting into college and doing well, the kids are winning bees, they form groups, but yet people like come along and try to pigeonhole and stereotype them, try to make them feel guilty for 'abandoning' their duty to 'fix' the public schools? Huh? Why can't they try their best teaching their kids? Maybe the public schools could actually learn a thing or two, instead of being so threatened by homeschoolers.

[emdee]

170. What a shame....

you have absorbed nothing that the homeschoolers said. Did you simply want a Bash-'Em thread rather than discussion?

Here's an idea for a new thread: What choices should we take away from parents? I think you'd put homeschooling at the top of the list. What else? What other choices should we let you decide for us?

emdee

[ryanus]

172. I could profile homeschool bashers,

like the author profiled homeschoolers. I come across them all the time.

Here's the short profile:

Homeschool bashers are conformists. They are afraid of people being too different, because that can cause instability in society. Often they enjoyed public schools, were popular, and didn't move far from home after they graduated high school

They think...
Public schools have rites of passage, like bullying, being sent to the principals office, dealing with being made fun of.
If homeschoolers are right, then that means I may be wrong. That scares me. I liked my public school experience and there is no other way.
Psycopaths homeschool, and they only homeschool because they are doing something devious with their kids that they don't want others to know about.
To turn out normal, you must do what everyone else does.
If we had all different people doing all sorts of different schools and teaching methods, we'd have chaos.
Even though public schools have their problems, at least it hasn't brought down society.
We need to regulate homeschooling because we can't risk anyone not being in public schools where we can control what they learn, and so we can observe how they behave.

On edit: How could I forget my favorite one!

It's morally wrong not to send your kids to public school to help the kids with problems. (Oh man I hear this all the time)

[emdee]

177. I am shocked to find some at DU, that's for sure.

Most of the home school bashers I used to know had to own up to the truth once several local home schoolers grew up and prospered. Of course, I still know a few but I certainly did not expect to find them here. It's a *choice* for goodness sakes! Isn't that what DU is all about - choice?

Anyway, it's been nice 'meeting' you, ryanus - your posts have been very well-written and informative. I'm just sorry that the OP wasn't really interested in hearing answers or in true discussion of the subject.

emdee

[ryanus]

179. Constant battle against ignorance

It just takes many forms. This time it was "liberal" people thinking homeschooling was wrong. Next...

Keep up the fight.

[emdee]

194. I really do remember when it was.....

those "long-haired liberal hippies" who were home schooling!

There has been one comment that almost made me RUSH to the local school and sign up my child: Rick Santorum home schools?!?!?!?! ACK! He probably has servants that do it.

:rofl: emdee

[MichaelHarris]

174. I had to

look over my posts and guess what? I never said we should take away the right to home school. I just asked people to examine the reasons for home schooling. I didn't advocate any loss of rights, I only looked for insight to the reasons why people home school. I made some accusations and they fit a great number of home schools. Actual numbers? I have no idea, how many racists do you think live in America? Does that model fit yours? I doubt it.

I've read this thread over and over, responded to most just not the attacks. In fact I've just read the Home school forum posts. I've seen about as many "I've had it with the public school" threads as I could stand. It would make much better reading if those that posted those gave reasons. It's only those reasons I wanted to explore.

It is this response that baffles my mind,

"But it is true that I would allow others to train racists to keep my right to home school."

It's in this thread, I hope you've seen it. I'm not sure I have the words to address that sort of sentiment. Is that what you want me to absorb?

[ryanus]

176. I said that

Let me ask you this. Would you protect your right to free speech even if some else used that right to spew hatred?

[MichaelHarris]

178. Sure

I will always support free speech, are we going to mold home schooling and teaching into free speech now? We'll have to examine the difference between Nazi marchs and schools that teach hate, some of which that are entitled to taxpayer money and grants.

[ryanus]

182. It's the same argument

You wouldn't ban speaking, even if some spoke something bad.
You wouldn't ban teaching outside public schools, even if someone taught something bad.

It's not the fact that some are teaching at home that is the problem. It could be "what" they are teaching, but not "that" they are teaching.

If some yahoo teaches his kid at home to be racist, then I'm sorry about that. But I'm not going to support banning teaching at home.

So, unfortunately as with other rights, as I fight to protect my rights, I am protecting the rights of others who may do bad things. But we have criminal laws to punish "what" they do.

Is this a difficult concept?

[emdee]

180. I'll take your word for it....

I'll take your word for it, but you sure did imply the hell out of it! Excuse my language. So - blunt question: Do you support a parent's right to choose when it comes to the education of their children?

And, so you read the Home School Forum page - how much time did you spend there? Do you think that every single issue is discussed there? Do you think that that forum should immediately answer your questions even if you don't post them? Good grief, fella, give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes.

As to the ONE sentence you've copied and pasted - no, I had hoped you would have absorbed much more than that. Can you try to comment on just one of the positive aspects of home schooling?

Once again, Do you support a parent's right to choose educational sources?

Thank you,
emdee

[Nikki Stone 1]

181. Emdee, I am a credentialed public school teacher and

if I had children, I would be very tempted to home school them. A lot would depend on economics and my own energy level.

There are a number of reasons that parents home school. Falling academic standards would be my number one reason. Having taught, I am appalled at the lack of information the kids get by the time they reach high school. I can thoroughly understand that you, with a child who was an early fluent reader (that is the term of art), would want to start instruction as soon as the aptitude and interest presented themselves. Of course, once a child is reading above grade level, the "normal" grade levels go out the window and most schools have no way of handling this. Obviously, you can handle this better at home. Private schools, depending on the structure, might also be useful here, but they tend to be quite expensive.


Second, the amount of actual intruction time (versus the endless days of standardized tests, the various "non-academic" lessons and functions, etc.) is being reduced. One word on the standardized tests: a British study pointed out that the more standardized tests students take in a year, the more their motivation goes DOWN. If my kid loved learning, I'd hate for them to lose the interest due to excessive and needless testing. (I lose one month out of every 8 1/2 I teach on standardized testing.) All this testing (produced by private companies at high $$$) means that students are taught to the test, which doesn't guarantee the best education, since the tests are not about creativity and high level thinking but about filling in circles on rote kinds of tasks.

Funding for classroom resources has also gone down, (even if general funding is increasing) and often the schools do not have necessary resources for learning, like BOOKS! I am one of those teachers who buys supplies that the school doesn't have (like markers, pencils, chalk, etc. depending on the school and the year). The better off schools in our county are better off because the PARENTS are out fundraising for the school, not because they get any more Federal money than our school did. I know parents who tirelessly volunteer and run all kinds of functions to supplement school funding. With homeschooling, you can make some decisions about how to allocate money for resources, and since these are your children, you will be more inclined to invest in these resources. To a lot of taxpayers, your children are an abstraction and they don't understand why their schools might need funding.


And to the OP, a word on violence. School is a place where many kids get bullied and abused. And, from my experience teaching high school, they can get beaten up, robbed, and occasionally raped. So the violence argument is not totally a cover for racism. The truth is that we live in a much less civil society. Kids are influenced by violence coming at them from every form of media, and there are fewer checks on their behavior. There is far more acceptance of what used to be considered inappropriate social behavior including open threats to teachers. (I've had students threaten my car and my person for making normal classroom demands, like respecting myself or another student talking.) So making overgeneralizations that homeschoolers are somehow intrinsically racist is just wrong. You need to apologize for that, if nothing else.

Just my two cents, emdee.

As I said, I have taught a long time. And I think a properly funded and run public school system is the best kind of system for a democracy. The problem is that due to many factors--bad academic research (and there's a TON of this), the ass-backward policies of the Department of Education, general societal violence on the increase, and others--the system is being broken, and I think deliberately.

I myself will fight for public education and vote accordingly, but I worry that these larger forces are tearing it apart to be sold, piecemeal, to private companies charging highly inflated prices for old, warmed-over curricula and unqualified personnel. (Think Neil Bush) I don't know how to stop this or if it can be stopped.

Consequently, I don't blame any parent with the time, energy and inclination for educating their kids home.

Edited for work choice

[ryanus]

184. Thank you for your intelligent post

My only comment is about your last line.

I would change:
Consequently, I don't blame any parent with the time, energy and inclination for keeping their kids home.

to:
Consequently, I don't blame any parent with the time, energy and inclination for teaching their kids at home.

[Nikki Stone 1]

188. Point well taken. Will do.

:kick:

[emdee]

185. Thank you very much....

for your information and knowledge. You have put into words many of our combined feelings, I'm sure. My sister-in-law teaches special ed and I can relate to the funding needs that you mentioned. And, while I do know some home school moms who think that *everyone* should home school, I do not. I think that is as dangerous a viewpoint as the opposite. I never push or influence others to do this but I do think of it as a right.

emdee :hi:

[Nikki Stone 1]

193. The choice depends on a lot of different factors

And no one can make that choice for anyone else.

Sometimes, a public school can offer better resources for certain kinds of kids than what you can provide at home. One place I taught was known for its special ed programs, especially for kids with Cerebral Palsy and other kinds of conditions along those lines. There was very expensive computer equipment which provided all kinds of assistance to these kids. (I think it was the equivalent of about $10,000 per child when all was said and done.) Most parents don't have the finances to pay for the costs of both the medical care and the special equipment needed for the education of these children. Under those circumstances (and provided that the teachers were caring and well-trained) a school environment would be a good thing for both students and their primary caregiver parent, who probably needs a break.

However, I have also taught in places where special ed was just another name for the classes with violent (ED) kids taught by ineffective, worn out teachers. These kids were completely asocial in their behavior and the classroom control almost non-existent. I've all seen places where the resources were so sparse that it was hard to teach the basics to kids who otherwise would have had no problem learning the material.

And for "gifted" kids (and I put that in quotes because that designation is mostly based on test scores and not on experience with the child), it's a grab bag depending on the school and the teacher. One place I taught let a tired, elderly teacher, who was ten years past normal retirement age, teach the gifted high schoolers. These gifted kids were a rowdy bunch and ran roughshod over the teacher. No work got done. This teacher was given the gifted class because it was assumed it would be a nice quiet class and the elderly teacher would be getting a break. No one considered the needs of the kids. Teaching the "gifted" kids is considered a plum assignment and the teacher can be chosen for all the wrong (political) reasons.

You have to check out your child's school. Spend a day or two there with your child. See what is actually happening. Talk with the teachers. Then make the decision that is best for your child.

[emdee]

197. I agree with everything you've said....

a friend of mine is a nurse at a local public school. She deals with kids who are disabled - maybe in wheelchairs, some have trachs or feeding tubes, etc. There are many programs that the school system can and must provide that would be very difficult for the parents. And, like you said, the parents do need the break.

I am not anti-public-school at all. I am a product of the local school and have many friends and relatives who have sent their kids there over the years. I know what is available here and what is not. I just see home schooling as a choice that we made and that's it. When it's on paper, our family chooses home school for now. Others are very free to choose differently based on the same criteria.

Many colleges and universities have opened their doors to home schoolers and encourage them to attend. I thought we had "come a long way, baby" until this thread! :smile:

emdee

[FormerDem06]

254. We weren't allowed in the classroom at our base school...

We were told that we could volunteer at the school in the office or the library, but we were not allowed in the classroom. I asked to see a kindergarten class for 10 minutes so I could see how they were run and I was rejected.

We ended up putting our son in a small school that is funded partially from a federal grant. Three teachers (and no aides) for 54 kids. Five or six of the 54 kids were BEH (Behaviorally and Emotionally Handicapped) or autistic. They did not have in-class aides because they had to be classified by the system first and took up a good 50% of the teachers' collective time each day.

My son made lots of friends, was liked by his teachers and generally fit in well. Academically, he learned to read and graph. That's pretty much it. He is home now, where we can keep up the pace at which this bright young child asks to be learning. I came home last night, and he met me at the door and gave me a run-down of the magna-carta, the year it was signed and by whom it was issued.

I doubt seriously he'd be learning such things in first grade at school. He goes to a non-religious co-op with over 200+ kids twice a week, and when he's old enough (if he's not in school again) he'll play on the home-school football and basketball teams (he loves that stuff). He is also going to start learning Chinese in a class for home schoolers next spring, I figure he might as well be able to survive in the business world of 2030.

[Nikki Stone 1]

266. I find that appalling. Places I have taught welcomed parental visits

In many cases, a child who was acting up (looking for attention) actually calmed down with the parent in the room. It also gave the parents a chance to see me in action, to see the materials, and to talk with me about their children.

When I decided to teach, I visited several schools as an observer (this was a number of years ago) to get a feel for what my job would be like.

Your decision sounds like a wise one.

As I said before, I am in the public system and believe in fighting to make it better. But, I can understand parents who believe their children are better served at home or in alternative surroundings.

[Ms. Toad]

274. In my daughter's school

the "gifted" kids are identified then ignored. The state mandates that they be identified, but does not mandate anything beyond identification - so nothing is done.

[ND Pendie]

196. You assume much

Primarily, that my making a choice to home school implies that I am not participating in a "change effort." I'm very active in my community, and a member of the PTA (I have one child in public school - it doesn't work for every kid!).

Second, that my responsibility to my community is greater than that to my children. Nothing is more important to me than my kids. Not even your opinion :)

Third, that a community is only as strong as its public schools. I say a community's strength may include the strength of its public school system, but a weak school system can be buffeted by the work of rational and concerned parents, including those who feel that one way to strengthen a community is by working for change through alternative methods.

You seem stuck in the rut of working through standard methods. Open your self to a little cultural diversity, ok?

And btw, when you refer to home schoolers as "you home schoolers" its clear that you've stopped seeing us as individuals, and started seeing us as a group. Its depersonalizing. Thats not very healthy, and even my home schooled kids know that much.

[CBGLuthier]

173. amazing how much activity

a bigoted bullshit post can generate.

BTW, when talking about the education system I would suggest you learn to proofread or spell. The word lose is not spelled L-O-O-S-E.

[MichaelHarris]

175. thank you

did you spell check the whole thread to find that?

[CBGLuthier]

187. No

I thought about making that comment when this tired, lame-ass thread began but let it go.

but since then I have had a few drinks and decided what the fuck.

I never, ever point out spelling or typo's except when someone gets on their high horse about spelling and education.

I do not use the tool called spell check. If I have doubts, I look it up. I have a few words that I know I can not spell reliably.

But I goddamn well know the difference between loose and lose.

[MichaelHarris]

198. you would make

a wonderful teacher.

[MUSTANG_2004]

212. Not sure if that's sarcastic

But you're correct. I remember one English teacher who was an absolute demon about mis-using words (lose/loose, further/farther, and my personal pet peeve, mute/moot), and it was a needed lesson. My better teachers/professors were fairly pedantic (or obsessed) about making sure every i was dotted just so.

[MichaelHarris]

183. I wonder

Did anyone happen to notice my original post was directed at a fundamentalist Christian I know here? I only ask because no one commented on it. Maybe the passion of defending home schooling caused some to miss that part. Can any of you say with all honesty that hatred and bad science is not taught in ANY home school? I can tell you hatred and myth-science is not taught in public school.

As far as the attacks on my spelling and grammar well that’s truly sad. I had a friend here that was dyslexic, he had a lot of problems posting. He achieved over a thousand posts before the ridicule got to him. His last few farewell posts addressed his problem, I felt bad for him. It’s not me, you can ridicule me I’m a product of public school and have no diseases other than fat fingers that outrun my brain. In other words I have very thick skin.

Would you do everything you could to expose hatred and racism in the form of home schooling? I would think you would just to make sure your system was great. Would you peel other’s to see what lies underneath? I hope you’re not afraid of what you will find. I’ve “peeled” some very close friends, I didn’t like what I found. I would think you would want to expose that, clean house so to speak.

[ryanus]

186. Oh, mercy

"Please, please agree with me that SOME homeschoolers are bad."

Of course there are bad homeschoolers. Nothing is perfect. No one is claiming that. The massive response was to the blankets statements about "homeschoolers," not "homeschoolers I talked to in writing this article." I'll bet if the author wrote that, there would be like one post that said, "Just remember not all homeschoolers are like that."

[emdee]

190. I will apologize to you....

as I said earlier - I really never ever correct people on the 'net on spelling or grammar. I'm much too likely to make many many mistakes myself. But, the more you demanded that we 'seperated' our kids and were somehow mistreating them and society, the more that 'e' stood out! LOL I tried to let you know that I normally did not do that and that I was sure to make many mistakes simply because I did.

No, I cannot promise you that every home school household is perfect. But, you, also, cannot promise that every public school is perfect. When you say, "I can tell you hatred and myth-science is not taught in public school," you don't know that. You are not privy to every individual classroom or teacher. And, again, that is not our reason for home schooling to begin with.

And, now you say that you were only talking about one family in particular? No, that wasn't made clear at any point in the discussion nor in any of your answers afterwards, until now. Then you ask, "Would you do everything you could to expose hatred and racism in the form of home schooling?" Well, no. Just as I would not want you to walk into my house and begin giving instructions, I would not do to others. There are rules and regulations that cover home schooling already in place. The things you don't want taught would be taught anyway if that is what the family believes, don't you think? Why would it matter what time of day that teaching came about? How can you regulate that? I think that there are families who utilize public schools and still teach their kids things that you don't want them to teach. Some things are simply not in our control.

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

200. From my OP

if any of you home school I mean no offense but I would hope you would reexamine your reasons. All I asked was for an examination of the reasons. Heck examine everyones reasons, it's just a thought, just an idea. Reasons can't be questioned?

No need to apologize to me, my friend that came here is long gone. Seems there are alot of liberals who like to correct people's spelling and grammar. Happened many times here. I think maybe re-reading a thread like this when one is less angry could be in order sometimes. Maybe the hate that I was accused may not actually be there. Be careful though, you'll see plenty from your point of view.

Peace.
Michael Harris

[emdee]

201. Much has been said....

that makes me question the "I mean no offense" statement. And, the "but I would hope you would reexamine your reasons" sounds condescending at the least. Throughout the whole thread there has been much judging about what should simply be known as "choice."

I don't know how much "hate" you felt throughout this thread. It seemed that you only got defensive when I turned the questions around and asked them in response to your own life. I don't think I received many answers to those questions. That's when it was decided that I was being hostile. But, I was simply taking the same questions you asked me and rephrasing them to, perhaps, fit your own life. As you said, "Reasons can't be questioned?"

As to the "hatred" you say you saw -- well, think about it this way. I'll use your scout master background again. Take your original post, replace home schooling with scout master, change the problem to child molesting. NOW, IT IS MY OPINION THAT ONLY A FRACTION OF SCOUT MASTERS HAVE ABUSED CHILDREN and I DO NOT THINK FOR ONE MINUTE THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO. But, some have. So, pretend I write a long post outlining peeling the onion of scout masters abusing boys as if it were true of all scout masters. How do you feel about that?

Listen, I may post bluntly but it hasn't been with hatred at all. You posted in a matter-of-fact manner and so did I. Now is not the time to feign offense. I have a feeling that you can take as much as you dish and this hurt feelings attitude is surprising.

Have a great day and I certainly think that you were probably a great scout master - take no offense at my example,please....
emdee

[Jcrowley]

206. Very narrow

description and understanding of the very diverse array of home-schoolers to say the least. In fact I offer you an open invitation to come visit me and hang out with all the home-school kids around here. These are easily the cream of the crop, the most well-informed, the most capable and have the most even demeanor of any of the children in this area. These are mostly secular children whose parents are very aware of the issues with institutional education be they public or private institutions.

You don't need to be a genius to see how dysfunctional the American education system is, even the best of the schools. Just churning out good consumers for the business mills. Not to mention the bad food.

Have you read any of John Taylor Gatto's work or John Holt?

[girl gone mad]

228. "I can tell you hatred and myth-science is not taught in public school"

How can you tell us that?

I tutor high school students. I had one girl tell me that she couldn't wait to get to college in NYC because the boys in her high school are extreme racists. So, this high school is spawning bigotry instead of discouraging it, as you seem to believe public school naturally does.

[MichaelHarris]

234. Well

I can't tell you anything but I can bet you that I could search every high school in America and not find a class teaching hate. Now I can make a 40 minute drive to North Idaho and take pictures of the class. Even easier I could make the 10 minute drive to Moscow, Id and record the Minister and private school teacher lecturing on the positive effects of slavery.

Now unless you can show me a public school curriculum that has a class called "Hate and it's positive Effects" then you haven't found the class either. I'm sure the guy in Moscow,Id has his paper online, I had it here when we investigated him and challenged him to open debate. If I can find it here or online I'll post it.

"Slave life was to them a life of plenty, of simple pleasures, of food, clothes, and good medical care."

Wilson had built a far-flung, far-right religious empire that included a college, an array of lower schools, an entire denomination of churches, and more.

now represented 10 percent of Moscow’s entire population. He had founded a k-12 school called “Logos” that taught history from a “Biblical Worldview” and an unaccredited college called “New Saint Andrews,” where he had installed himself as “Senior Fellow of Theology.” Other faculty members at the college included Wilson’s son Nate, his brother Gordon, and son-in-law Ben. Wilson, it turned out, had cultivated an empire of “classical” schools based on a biblical worldview that included over 165 private academies around the country, all of which purchased educational materials published by his personal “Canon Press” in Moscow, Idaho, or affiliated “Veritas Press” in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

http://hnn.us/articles/9142.html

http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/11644.html

http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/

http://splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=376

There you go, the largest home schoolers on the Palouse. Want to know what I fear? This. Now you will ask, "You can't judge us based on this guy, you can't fault us." My answer to that is as long as you do nothing to stop it and only defend your home school position you allow it.

[aikoaiko]

204. Something you should read.

If you're interested in understanding the home schooling parent.

Educational Studies, Vol. 30, No. 3, September 2004
Who chooses non-public schools for their children?
Philip Q. Yang* & Nihan Kayaardi
Texas Woman’s University, USA

Using the pooled 1998–2000 GSS data, this study examines what kinds of parents tend to select non-public schools for their children, a question that is fundamental but lacks direct, adequate answers in the literature. The results of logistic regression analysis show that religion, socio-economic status, age, nativity, number of children and region play significant roles in parental choice of religious schools, but race, gender, urban residence and family composition make no difference. Parental socio-economic status is a key factor in determining their choice of non-religious private schools. Currently, no significant differences in demographic, religious, socio-economic and family-structure characteristics can be detected with regard to which parents are more likely to home-school their children. Implications of the findings are considered.

[LWolf]

214. This is very good.

You left out one other reason:

People homeschool out of frustration with a disabled system.

I haven't even looked, but I'll guarantee you there are some posters here talking about the quality of education.

That's everyone's excuse. I doubt that very many people would just spit it out: "I homeschool my kids to keep them away from the <insert area of bigotry here>."

There are some though, who will say that public ed did not meet their child's learning needs. Or that they didn't feel their kids were safe from bullying, physical and/or social, or were respected at their school.

Some of those people are correct. We do the best with what we've got, but the conditions we teach in are not always rosy. Too few adults, too many kids, too few resources, too many demands, and now mandates that kill love of learning, higher level thinking, etc..

As a teacher, I'd really like to see parents pour their time and energy into demanding things like small schools, safe buildings, low class-size, low adult-to-student ratio overall on campus, abundant resources, support for struggling students, etc., and into evicting the politicians bent on destroying public ed.

As a parent, I know the tension. If revolt happened today, and change happened next year, it would be a few more years before those changes were locked in and operating smoothly. Meanwhile, my kid would be done. A parent wants action for their kid, NOW.

I got a great public education. Both of my sons got a public education. If I could do it again, I'd have chosen a different environment than what the local high school district offered. My only other choices, within a 100 mile radius, were private christian schools built to indoctrinate students with religious dogma, or homeschool. So they went to the local public high school. My grandson is currently enrolled in public school. They are doing a great job within their current limits.

Offer the system the opportunities and resources to effect needed changes, and you'll be left with your original three excuses.

[FooFootheSnoo]

222. There are some valid reasons to homeschool

I used to be very opposed to homeschooling (90% of the time I still am), but I wrote a paper about homeschooling a long time ago and agreed with certain people homeschooling their kids. A family in Alaska was faced with sending the kids to town to live with friends for 3-4 months out of the year(due to weather) or homeschool the kids for those 3-4 months. They decided to homeschool and I would too. I read about another mother whose son was diagnosed with ADD. The medication caused the boy to have hallucinations and some other problems, so she took him off the medication. The teacher and school principal demanded she put him back on the meds or he would not be allowed to attend school. If memory serves me correctly, the psychiatrist didn't believe the mother until the boy had a full blown psychotic episode. At that point she took him off the meds, took him out of school and maybe even sued the school district.
Every homeschooler I've met it a religious fruitcake. I'm sorry if that offends, but it's what my experience has been. I'm sure there are some good families that do a great job homeschooling. There's an exception to every rule. But, in my opinion, 90% of the time, homeschooling does an injustice to the children.

[BlooInBloo]

237. There are many. Teachers being uneducated being primary.

EDIT: But what's so bad, and is actually quite an achievment, is to do a *worse* job than public education. lol!

[BlooInBloo]

226. It's too bad that white folks don't know or don't care...

... what "states' rights" truly means.

Personally, I think they know, and just don't care - they just like to *pretend* they don't know. But then, I'm a cynical bastard. :rofl:

[MichaelHarris]

236. Is it even fair to ask

if any of the educational material home schoolers use come from Canon Press in Moscow, Idaho, or affiliated “Veritas Press” in Lancaster, Pennsylvania? If so see my post above.

[emdee]

248. Is it fair of you to ask *anything* else....

before answering some of the questions posed to you? You have let our questions to you dangle and yet here you come with more. Our curriculum absolutely does not teach hate nor is it from the distributors you mentioned. You said above that unless I try to change whatever is happening in Idaho or wherever you think you see evil then I "allow it" --- that's bull and you know it. Have you searched out every scout master to make sure he's not molesting children? There's yet another question you probably won't answer but will dream up many more to ask, I'm sure. But, if you haven't searched out every scout master to be sure, then *according to you* you're allowing mostestation to happen. If what you've said about homeschoolers allowing abuse is true, then why wouldn't this also be true? And, remember, the BTK killer was a scout master --- surely you don't think you "allowed" his deeds to go unnoticed for so many years? I don't believe that for a minute --- but if I apply your "logic" then I can't see a difference in the situations proposed.

Now, I'll ask this one more time: Do you think it is a parent's right to make the choice of which school system to utilize for their own family? If the parents should not make this choice, who should? You?

And before you are offended --- none of this said with hostility at all - but it is getting old, I'll have to admit. I'm thinking of writing that "Peeling the Onion of Anything in MichaelHarris' Life" post and just see how you feel! LOL

Good day -
emdee :hangover:

[MichaelHarris]

258. I

resigned from being a scout master when I wrote a letter to the Washington DC office complaining about segregation one troop in Texas was practicing. Their response stated that individual troops could accept or deny anyone they wanted. So to answer your question, I did quit, I did report it, and I'm still fighting it based on ONE troop I found.

Yes a family can choose, can they choose a system that allows hate? If they want to. Can I fight it? Sure.

[emdee]

260. So you withdrew yourself from what you considered a failed system?

So you withdrew yourself from a system you felt was failing? That's very interesting in light of all of your posts about separating oneself from just that type of culture. I don't think that your leaving the scouts is practicing what you've preached. How many people did you ask here, "So, you took Johnny out and ran? What were you afraid of?" or something similar? That's exactly what you did. You withdrew and took a stand and yet anyone who dared do that in the way of teaching their children, you have demonized. Do you see the hypocrisy there? I do.

Thank you for finally answering my question about choice. Of course, we have the right to choose and of course you have the right to speak out. However, it would be nice if you spoke out based on actual facts and figures which, of course, do not back up your stance.

I think we have exhausted the subject unless you have more questions and/or accusations.....

emdee

[MichaelHarris]

261. Not sure what you saw

to to answer your question, I did quit, I did report it, and I'm still fighting it based on ONE troop I found.

Withdrew??? I still fight it, I don't support it. I'm still involved, I find it and point it out. If their national office changes it's racist policy I'll support it again. I still sponsor individual scouts with their Eagle Scout projects. What I don't do is send money to a national organization that's support separation. No, I didn't start my own version of scouting, I'm working to change the one we have.

Now a question for you. Do you purchase education materials from ANY organization that ALSO sells to home school groups that DO support separation? Do you research any ties those companies may have? That's the difference in you and I.

[emdee]

262. No, actually the difference between us....

is that *I* wait for an answer before declaring judgments so boldly.

I research our needs very well, thank you very much and I speak out on many different issues and fight inequities whenever and wherever I see them. You insist that you know exactly what each and every one of us is doing and yet if you gave each of us 100 questions to answer (you're almost there, btw), we'd all have different answers. You cannot put us all into one box and call us the same. One problem you have is that you do not, evidently, read our responses. You must absorb differing opinions when researching an issue.

And, yes, you took yourself out of a similar situation that many home schoolers found themselves in and you withdrew yourself. There is no difference. You have no idea whether or not those who withdrew for similar reasons are still fighting or not -- you simply declare that they aren't based on nothing. I see no need to defend myself to you since you have done exactly what you have been arguing against and I have not.

Again, Good Day,
emdee

[Nikki Stone 1]

264. Last I heard, the Boy Scouts were optional, not compulsory

Comparing the Scouts to legally required schooling does not help your argument.

I encourage you to read the posts I have made to emdee above. I am a credentialed teacher with years of experience and I can understand why emdee made the decision she made.

It might help you to have a little more information about what is actually going on in public schools before you write an essay about home schooling.

[JNelson6563]

243. Religion

I live in a very white, white, white area~northern Michigan. It isn't the blacks home schoolers are keeping their kids away from in this region, it's the godless public school system. Also there are those who have done such a crappy job raising their kids that the schools can't handle the kid. Of course you don't hear the parents admitting the kid is a nightmare. No, it's always the public school's fault.

Once when I was on a long drive through the state I was searching for radio stations in a rural area. I listened to a religious station for a few minutes and this lady was telling people that homeschooling was the way to go. She claimed that 100 years ago the literacy rate was about 99% because people were teaching their kids how to read at home, using the bible. I shudder to think how many out there are ignorant enough to actually believe such a pant load.

Racism is a big underlying part of this but I say religion is of equal significance.

Julie

On edit I'd like to add, for those who live in district with crappy schools and lots of violence (not limited to shootings) I applaud your dedication to homeschooling your kids. In my area we have very good schools so, like the race issue, it's an argument that's not very applicable here.

[ND Pendie]

249. With all respect...

There are any number of reasons why a parent might chose home schooling, not just the two (crappy schools/violence) that you acknowlege.

As has been stated numerous times throughput this thread, home schooling is a matter of choice. Those who chose to do so aren't required to justify that choice to anyone.

[JNelson6563]

259. You left out religion

There just ain't enough religion in the schools as far as the fundies are concerned.

Julie

[ND Pendie]

268. Screw the fundies

In my opinion, there's too much religion in school, which is one of the many reasons why I chose home schooling.

What do the dark motives of fundies have to do with the reasons that rational people home school?

[Akoto]

265. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was so ignorant.

I was forced to complete my education via home schooling after I came down with some considerable health problems. It had nothing to do with religion, racism, evolution vs. creationism, or whatever other nonsense you'd like to bring up.

What the hell is with all of the blanket judgement going on here lately?

[Nikki Stone 1]

267. Yes, the OP does stereotype all home schoolers

Logical fallacies in argumentation are par for the course unfortunately.