How mad are you at the Dems over this torture bill?

[Nutmegger]

I refrain from profanity so you'll have to put up with my funny symbols lol. :)

[gully]

1. Wasn't this just a vote to have a full vote?

eom

[Greeby]

2. the 160 who voted against it? Nothing

The 34 who voted for it? :argh:

[Maraya1969]

57. Could those 34 have stopped it?

EDIT to add their names again:

Barton
Blunt
Boehner
DeLay
Dreier
Hayworth
Istook
Hunter
Jindal
Johnson
Ney
Pence
Rohrabacher
Weldon (FL)

[ikojo]

69. Perhaps they could not have stopped it but they did

not need to support a torture bill in the first place. There is no excuse for supporting torture...NONE.

[Monkeyman]

3. Here let them know

http://DemocraticLeader.house.gov

[Generator]

4. Beyond anger

This day and tomorrow(for the true believers) have been the days that lost me. I no longer believe in the Democrats at all. I don't want to be a Democrat anymore. It's over. You don't capitulate to evil to win political gain. So on Monday or whenver the bill is signed into law, a real human being WILL be tortured again. It's not a bankruptcy bill or even arguing whether the president will go to war in Iraq-this is a bill allowing that some poor soul will be tortured and imprisoned for the rest of their life. And yes, some of them are really innocent. And even if they are not, it's not acceptable.

So a Democrat could have political gain. That they don't see that means they do not represent me on the most fundamental moral issue of our time.

And if this stands, someday some of our own citizens and soldiers will be tortured as well. Thank you so much for standing tall to evil, Democrats. I think I need this with an evil laugh. What a joke.

[atommom]

6. I agree. This is a sad day. Even profanities fail me. nt

[TahitiNut]

My small solace is in being an independent.

I have never based my political expectations on some label that has absolutely no reliable truth-in-labeling.

[derby378]

12. Congratulations! You're a true Democrat

This vote has only served to inform the party grassroots that their work is still far from over. We missed some golden opportunities to clean house in 2006, but this should help energize you to help the rest of us "purge" the party over the next two years.

[bobbolink]

22. Yup, out with the DLC!

We, the people, demand our party back!

[glitch]

67. First we get rid of the fascists, then we get rid of the collaborators

And if we need the help of the international community to do so, so be it.

[mike_c]

5. anyone who voted for this bill is a traitor in my book....

I don't use that term lightly-- I've even defended Bush against that accusation. But anyone who seeks to achieve through legislation what America's enemies would seek through conflict-- the destruction of the rule of law and the democracy founded upon it-- is a traitor IMO. A baldfaced turncoat unworthy of calling themselves American.

I'm not just ANGRY at dems who voted for this bill-- I call upon them to step down immediately because they are not worthy of representing Americans. I'm APPALLED and FURIOUS that anyone would support this attack on my country. This is no different from 9/11. This time the terrorists are home grown. THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM, so they work diligently to take it away.

Torture is only a small part of this bill. The whole thing is one of the most toxic pieces of legislation to ever pass the House, IMO.

[Individualist]

9. Hear, hear!!

NO WAR CRIMINALS IN CONGRESS! NONE! NOT EVEN ONE!

I'm beyond outraged at this obscenity.

[Marie26]

11. Exactly.

The acceptance of torture is awful, but honestly that's not what angers me the most. This bill completely eliminates the judicial system that has worked since the American Revolution, in order to create a seperate kangaroo court where civil rights & the Constitution don't matter. No habeas corpus means that people can be literally thrown in a dungeon, or killed, without ever having a chance to bring the case before a judge. It potentially applies to any "alien", allowing any immigrant to be tossed into Gitmo or a secret CIA prison, on Rumfeld's say-so. I can't believe this is happening in a supposed democracy, or that our supposed representatives are marching in lock-step to support it. Don't they realize it also takes away Congress's power? Don't they care?

[davekriss]

50. I heard it several days ago...

...but again today. The bill has been changed to strike "alien" and now refers to any "person". Any "person" giving material support to an entity the President or his designees declares to be a "terrorist" entity is subject to all the crimes of this bill, from the repeal of the writ of habeas corpus, to Geneva Convention protections as solely interpreted by the President, to the death penalty meted out by military tribunals not even obligated to state what the victim is charged with when they take his or her life. Not "alien", any "person", i.e. even a U.S. citizen. This truly is the Bush Regime's Enabling Act.

I offer as citation Amy Goodman's remarks on today's Democracy Now! I sure would like to get my hands on the most current version of this bill. It is a great cause of concern and I am utterly disappointed in the failure of Democratic leadership to resist this via noisy and visible filibuster.

[Marie26]

65. Really hope that's not true

Well, I checked this, and AKAIK, the latest version still limits the commission's jurisdiction to "alien" enemy combatants. They still could slip in in later in conference, though, so it's something to pay attention to.

- § 948c. Persons subject to military commissions - "Any alien unlawful enemy combatant is subject to
trial by military commission under this chapter."

Although the military commissions are only for "alien" enemy combatants, the definition of "enemy combatant" could extend to US citizens as well. Basically, an "enemy combatant" is anyone who has assisted hostilities against the US, AND anyone who Rumsfeld & Bush label as such. There's no criteria for when or how Rumsfeld or Bush can make that determination.:

"(1) UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT- (A) The term `unlawful enemy combatant' means--

(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces); or

(ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense."

HR 6166 - http://www.rules.house.gov/109_2nd/text/hr6166/1092nd_hr6166.pdf

So what happens to an "unlawful enemy combatant" who's a US citizen? I don't know. It seems like, under this law, they can't be tried in the military courts. I assume this means that they'd go to the US court system, but it's not clear under this bill how they would be tried. If they're tried under normal laws, why does this bill allow citizens to be labeled "enemy combatants"? There's some wiggle room there, and it would be very easy to modify the law slightly to allow US citizens to be tried as well under the same procedure.

[davekriss]

77. Seems too big a thing to be left vague in the bill

I believe Amy Goodman's point (she was commenting on the opinion of some ACLU legal heads who looked at the bill), yesterday, was that a U.S. citizen could be detained indefinately and, denied habeaus corpus, and denied all but the President's definition of Geneva protections. Looks like while "alien" status moves on to perhaps the use of military tribunals by this law (subverting the recent SCOTUS decision), U.S. citizens replace them in Gitmo limbo. A Padila or Hamdan could, conceivably, remain in detention indefinately, at the sole discretion of the executive branch.

Earlier in the week I heard that the word "alien" was replaced by "persons", but I too can't find such a change (in the tribunal section) in the draft available on-line.

Still, this is very serious stuff and gives enormous unchecked powers of discretion to the President. It is still the Bush Regime's equivalent of the Enabling Act, in my opinion. Very sad day for We the People in the Land of the Free.

[Marr]

83. Agreed.

[ikojo]

7. How can 34 people who claim to be in the party for

the little guy, support TORTURE?

Just WHO do they think they are reaching out to by supporting TORTURE?

I've never held the notion that America was all sweetness and light but oy vey, I really didn't think the country condoned TORTURING other human beings! I thought that even with the history of slavery, the genocide of the first inhabitants of this land the American Indians, and the internment of Japanese Americans, the US would stop at condoning and approving of TORTURE!!!

Now I see that the US is just like the other so called third world countries. As Ani DeFranco sings, "take away our play stations and we are a third world nation."

[tnlefty]

15. I don't know. I watched a rep., (d) from NJ talking about this after Jane

Harman, on c-span's WJ this morning. This dem admitted that this was a bad bill, but that a bill needed to be passed before the end of the week. He mentioned the need to protect habeus corpeus, etc. Then he went on to say that he thought that the senate would take care of this in conference. That's when I lost it and I was screaming "coward" at my tv screen, which is also why I forgot his name - extreme anger does that to me. :blush:

After a few phone calls he was trying to change his tune, but the house had already voted on this and he could only muster enough courage to hang this on the senate?!!!?

[Marie26]

20. That's pretty lame.

What kind of reason is that? "We needed to pass a bill?" No, you didn't. The REPUBLICANS needed to pass this to cover up for their president's crimes; the Democrats needed to stand up for their own philosophies and beliefs.

[tnlefty]

26. That in addition to depending on the senate to set things right after he

had voted!!! There were callers who later mentioned what you did, some who stressed this country isn't for torture, etc. I really think that I was more furious with his 'pass this onto the senate and hope they'll fix this trainwreck of a bill' attitude.

[Marie26]

58. What, are you expecting him

to do his job or something? He's just a rubber-stamper, we can't expect him to do the actual hard work of crafting legislation. Dem or no, he needs to go.

ETA - His name is Robert Andrews, 1st Dis. of New Jersey. He's released a completely nonsensical statement on this bill:

"Unfortunately, the President’s proposal would redefine the US’s compliance with the Geneva Conventions and may very well be struck down again by the Supreme Court. Congress must authorize military commissions, but it must do so in a way that will withstand Supreme Court scrutiny. In a recent meeting of the House Armed Services Committee, I expressed my deep concerns over this proposal, and supported an alternative proposal that would establish these commissions in accordance with our Constitution and the Geneva Accords. This approach is supported by a bipartisan group, including Senators McCain, Graham, and Warner, as well as General Colin Powell. I remain committed to delivering justice to terrorists who threaten our way of life, but we must do so in a way that respects our values.

The Administration’s proposal is counterproductive to their goal of trying suspected terrorists, and to the wider war on terror. Because the proposal is unprecedented in how it circumvents our present military justice system, I am concerned that the Supreme Court will rule it unconstitutional...

On the fifth anniversary of the September 11th attacks, I met with citizens across the First District who were affected by these awful events. I restated to them my firm commitment to find terrorists before they attack, and to deliver swift justice. However, as Colin Powell recently stated, “The world is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism.” We must establish a system of military commissions that will swiftly convict suspected terrorists within the law. Doing so will help us win our war against terrorism in a way that respects the values that we cherish as Americans.

http://www.house.gov/list/hearing/nj01_andrews/9_19_06.html

So, it's bad, it's unconstitutional, it's immoral, it's against the Geneva Convention, but he's voting for it anyway? :crazy:

[Marie26]

8. Very, very angry

What is WRONG with these people? What motivated them to sell out our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, and our values? The US is sliding from a symbol of freedom to a symbol of oppression, and I'm tired of it.

[Jawja]

14. The terrorists have won.

That is what is wrong. Since 9/11, both parties in Congress have agreed to pissing away the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, both parties have agreed to sanction the violation of the Geneva Conventions, both parties in Congress have allowed * near dictatorial powers because we were attacked and 3000 people killed. Our government's response has been to destroy the very freedoms that * claimed the terrorists hated us for.

The terrorists have won. Plain and simple.

[confuddled]

29. That's the way I see it, Jawja.

Started with the Patriot Act and has gone downhill from there - all with this president and his supporters fanning the flames of fear and our would-be representatives responding with cowardice. So, now this country - once "the land of the free and the home of the brave" - is neither.

[Jawja]

75. And IMHO,

it's the American people who have so willingly forfeited Constitutional liberty and a lawful/morality based foreign policy by allowing this corrupt and criminal Congress to roll over for a thug slimeball dictator.

The American people have given the terrorists victory. Our once great nation will continue to rot from the inside out unless the public gets motivated enough to stand up to it. I'm afraid that we are not in near enough dire straits to fuel the "revolution" required to right this sinking ship.

[confuddled]

79. Yes, I concur with that as well.

Here we sit. Unfortunately, in the face of what we perceive as our political system's failure, I don't see us hitting the streets a la the Orange Revolution or some of the Latin American countries. Is it possible that the system has not failed - that this is actually what the majority of fearful, deluded, "patriotic" American citizens want? Even if this capitulation to such abominable legislation represents indifference or ignorance (Thank you,MSM.)on the part of the public, what does that say about this country?
Earlier this week a small group of local protesters, demanding to meet with their notoriously pro-Bush senator (No, I will not capitalize the word.)'commandeered' an elevator in order to access his local office. Of course, the senator was in D.C. I can't but be embarrassed at this level of silly ineptitude; can't we do any better than that? Apparently not. Too, meeting one definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result -, we persist in clearly futile efforts to influence our 'representatives' with desperate phone calls/emails/faxes/letters. I've had it with attempts to use the system as an avenue to political change. Short of revolution, I honestly don't know what we are to do about this situation.

[cui bono]

53. and don't forget the monetary bankrupting of the country

that went along with the moral bankrupting. :banghead:

[orpupilofnature57]

10. And this is where Kkkarl earns every penny ,by getting Shrubs opposition

to join the the ranks of Shrubs Enablers.Like MSM ,the Dem's instead of pointing out the ludicrous notion of torture,instead of listening to substantiated warnings from devoted experts ,as a means to conquer terror , is playing the sycophants role in 'The Emperors Clothing' . Too bad we couldn't have pop elections ,so they could keep their minds on their jobs.

[Solly Mack]

13. This vote isn't about which letter of the alphabet follows your name

This vote is about the type of country we want. This vote is about the type of country we have. This vote is about all of us - regardless of how "my guy voted"

No one gets to sit back and feel smug because "at least my Congress person(s) didn't vote for it",

If it passes, it won't make a damn bit of difference how your guy voted or what your letter is...

Wrapping yourself in the deceptively comforting "my guy didn't vote for it" flag while America goes down in flames won't save you from the fire.

We will ALL pay the price.

What's happening in this country is so much bigger than political parties

We should be Americans first

[Bluerthanblue]

27. agreed, but even

further - the essential truth and answer to it all:

not,
"What's happening in this country is so much bigger than political parties

We should be Americans first"

but:

WE SHOULD BE HUMANS FIRST

We're so anxious to 'define' the minutiae, seeking absolution, rather than looking for connections, and breaking down barriers that divide us.

we are so screwed.... and we are taking the entire world down with us.

[Solly Mack]

31. beautifully said!!!!

we should be humans first and I do believe that with all my heart

asking for people to remember their humanity doesn't seem to click as well as asking them be Americans first....and yes, I know just how cynical and horrible that sounds



It's like people are conditioned to forget their humanity...and to see country and party...

[Bluerthanblue]

52. .

:grouphug:

thanks Solly-

[bobbolink]

33. Where's the profit in being human?

Yanno, that bottom-line thingie.

Sold our souls, we have.

:mad:

[bobbolink]

28. I don't think we have a country left.

I really don't.

That thought edged closer and closer, but today.....

I think it's all over but the shouting.

Or wailing and gnashing of teeth....

[Generator]

30. Same thoughts

I was asking myself.."what is a country?" It's a place, an actual land I love and it's people. But everything I ever believe about this country is now dead. It lies to it's own people about everything and shreds all our liberties and is NOT a beacon of freedom and justice to the rest of the world. I suppose it never was anywhere near that-but it tried. And in the space of five short years it's been wiped away. I tremble to think what the next five years will bring with no doubt President "compromise on torture" McCain. He says it all. He will sell his soul to be president, much as many Dems have for the IDEA of a political victory.

The Constitution was the great body that protected it. It no longer does. The press was the watchdog. They cover up lies. And those that represent us, compromise with evil. There is nothing left but ourselves.

[Solly Mack]

32. Thats what I say to myself quite often (what you just said)

thank you...for letting me know I'm not alone

sometimes it's hard not to feel alone with such thoughts

I don't believe in America anymore...but I still believe in people.

[bobbolink]

34. No, you're most definitely NOT ALONE!! Walking out of the library

yesterday, a total stranger got to chatting with me, and we are both feeling this same sense of loss of country.

What's the odds of that, unless there are quite a few of us.

And, I can tell you, it's more than a few of the librarians feeling the same thing, and they're pretty much on the front lines with our liberties.

But, I diverge with you on the people part.... after seeing the two "progressive" candidates that I worked hard for turn their backs on people in poverty, after seeing post after post on poverty issues here at DU sink into oblivion, after watching people not being willing to make a phone call or send an email for the budget cuts last year... NOPE... I've lost trust in "people".

I guess if it's something dramatic, maybe they'll care. But, an invisible homeless person like myself? PPPPFFTTTTThhhh.... Of no account. I can't even begin to tell you how I lost all hope seeing the above mentioned.

Oh well, what the hell's my life, anyway...

:cry:

[Solly Mack]

38. (((((bobbolink))))))

Damn shame people are all we have...each other...and we treat each other so horribly.

and we come up with some of the saddest excuses for it too...

I'm so sorry.

[bobbolink]

39. Thanks so very much for understanding!

:pals:

That means so very much to me.

It's so horrible and so painful to lose hope.

That's what happened, watching those two "progressives" dump me, and watching what happens here on DU.

I don't even have words to describe how awful it feels to know you just don't matter.

*THAT'S* being alone.

Yet, when I try to talk about it, I get all the defenses, and how bizzzy everyone is at DU, etc etc etc.

You're the first who's really heard it.

Thanks so very much.

:cry: :hug: :cry:

[janx]

16. THE DEMS HAVE NO POWER.

How many times does it take for people to understand this?

THE DEMS HAVE NO POWER IN CONGRESS.

Until the November election, NOTHING CAN BE DONE.

[Marie26]

18. They can vote against it.

34 Dems didn't even do that.

[The Gunslinger]

19. So it's ok that they vote for fascism

They may not win, but party unity may help in the elections.

[bobbolink]

81. Seems to be.

Guess it's just not "in" to demand accountability.

Maybe next week?

Next month?

Next year?

[Eric J in MN]

23. The Senate Democrats could filibsuter the bill if they wanted to. (NT)

NT

[Cameron27]

45. That's exactly what I was hoping they'd do

When the votes were called out, it looked as if they were holding a damn wake for America. Warner was holding court with his snickering cronies in a front corner of the senate. It made me sick.

Why didn't the dems filibuster?

[Eric J in MN]

60. They probably didn't filibuster for these reasons.

1) Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid supports military tribunals, even if he doesn't agree with everything in the bill.

2) Senate Democrats are afraid of being portrayed as pro-terrorist in TV ads if they filibuster.

[bobbolink]

35. AH, shit!!!

I'm sick to death of that, so you don't need to treat us like we're imbeciles!!

Would Thomas Jefferson just wring his hands, and say, "Ohhh, my.. what ever can we do... we have no power.."??? I think not!!

Would any of those who fought so hard to create this country EVER give up and sell it down the river like was done today??????

[Generator]

44. Your post made me think of the scene in V for Vendetta

Little Evie learns where real power comes from. I somehow doubt you've seen the film. We always have ourselves, that's where real power comes from. Knowing you are just in yourself. They can't take that away from you. Sure, some are never that brave. But I didn't see any Democrats actually being tortured themselves, just assenting to it. (My mild mannered husband just said, well the least they could do is walk out-you know take a stand for what's right-but no they are just slimy politicians)

[Telly Savalas]

64. Then what benefit do they derive from voting for this piece of shit?

[The Gunslinger]

17. I am so angered

that if the senate does the same, I will change my affililation to Independent.

[bobbolink]

37. THat's what I did today. ~~sob~~ AFter all these years as DEM

(and I'm 60), I found my hand shaking, and I was very sad.

All hope is now officially gone.

:cry:

[burythehatchet]

21. I'm not upset at all

I'm saddened.

Over the course of the past week, beginning with the Clinton interview, I started feeling a surge of political energy. I began to see a coordinated message by the Democratic party. I saw a snippy Barbara Boxer humiliating a Fauxette. I felt confidence that we can and will win. I committed all my time, full time, until the election.

Today, I could give a flying fuck.

[bobbolink]

24. How MAD?! I had to change my voter address, so I also changed

my affiliation-- to independent.

For the first time since the 60's, I'm not registered Democrat.

*THAT'S* how mad I am.

Or sad.

Or giving up.

Name it.

[madmusic]

47. That's what Rove wants.

If this bill lets the terrorists win, you let Rove win.

Nothing wrong with being an Independent, mind you, and I may do the same. But keep in mind that Rove would love to divide and conquer anyone in his way.

[bobbolink]

84. You're right, my goal is to help Rove.

:sarcasm:

Please, get a new line.

That one has mold all over it.

[acmavm]

25. What;s the point of even posting about it? This is what the party has

come to, a bunch of weasels who will do anything just to avoid looking 'weak'. No matter if what they do is out and out WRONG and UNAMERICAN, all they care about is their own worthless hides.

[bobbolink]

40. I wish I didn't have to agree with you.

I so much wish I didn't.

:cry:

[Raksha]

55. I just don't get it...WHY would it have looked "weak"

if all the Democrats had voted NO on this monstrosity? If any explanation was necessary, they could have said something like: "Most issues are not black and white, but this one is and in this case I have to stand by my principles." THAT would have shown strength, not weakness.

[boolean]

36. THERE ARE NO WORDS

No words in the english language or any other language to express how fucking pissed off I am. Even these little emoticons are not mad enough.

:grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad::grr::mad:

[spanone]

41. I've got a fucking Harold Ford Jr. yard sign in my front yard.

I'm so damned close to pulling that goddam thing out of the ground. Son of a bitch. I wrote him. Right now he is on my deep shit list.

[Individualist]

42. He threw the election away today

How many democrats are so blindly loyal to the party that they'd vote for someone who supports torture? Very few, I'd think. I wish our TN ballot had "none of the above" as an option because I won't vote for a war criminal.

[treestar]

43. I just don't understand. Bush is unpopular per the polls, so why are

they afraid to oppose him? Why do believe their constituents want to eviscerate what this country stands for to the point they think they need this to be elected?

[glitch]

68. Really good question. I wish I knew the answer. nt

[unkachuck]

46. very, very, angry and disappointed....

....they're being true to form....and if they continue to be true to form, they will not only be 'going-along' on the usual repug pre-election bad-legislation shit, they'll lose in November too....

[Selatius]

48. It's a DARK DAY for America.

A dark day indeed. We bow our heads in shame at our leaders.

[bonzotex]

49. I'm usually not big on these "polls"...

But I'd like to see every DUer weigh in on this one. I was really beginning to believe that Democrats were "getting it" in time for the Elections.

The 34 losers who voted for this one need to go find another fucking job.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

51. I'm pleased with the Majority who voted against it...Pissed more at BushCo

n/t

[cui bono]

54. anyone have a link to the vote record? n/t

[madmusic]

56. Rage.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

59. I'm just numb - but knew something like this would happen before election

This was just like that Rovian tactic of having the Iraq vote right before the last election.

I really didn't think that even the Republicans would fall for something as extreme as this bill.

[gulfcoastliberal]

61. I'd probably get banned if I said what I thought of the democratic party

And I despise repukes. But the dems are just about as bad.

Why the FUCK did the senate put a Mormon, pro-life, DINO like Reid in the leadeship?!

WORSE THAN DASCHLE. He's done NOTHING for the party. And Pelosi is one big dissapointment. All bark, no bite. In fact, tha cliche applies to pretty much all dems, save the fe we all know & love.

We are fucked.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. No we need to speak up.

If we continue to remain silent we are also guilty of war crimes. We are now faced with the same choices that the people of Germany were faced with in the 30's. Are we good Germans?

[skids]

62. But I'm still voting for them. n/t

[Fovea]

63. I am considering waterboarding

my local Dem Rep who voted for it.
You know, not torture, as defined by baby jeezuz bush, just shock him a little
and waterboard him until he shits himself
and then I can smear it all over him and take campaign pics a la abu ghraib...

I want to show up at his next apperance in my district with a
stock tank and a first aid backboard and ask him to demonstrate his commitment to the new American values.


Yeah, I am a bit upset.

[OneBlueSky]

66. okay . . . the Patriot Act vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

the Iraq War vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

the bankruptcy bill vote I can forgive, because I have to . . .

I have to forgive all of these because I want to see Democrats elected, and too many Democrats have voted for these abominations -- and many, many others . . .

this one I cannot forgive . . . because it goes to the very essence of what it means to be not only a Democrat and an American, but a human being . . .

forgiving a vote for legitimizing torture as national policy is impossible without losing your own identity as an Democrat, as an American and, most importantly, as a human being . . .

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

70. What? No "I don't care" option? n/t

Congratulations, guys. Weeks to go until the election and you're letting the Republicans get you mad at your own fucking party.

[hootinholler]

71. No. THe republicans are not responsible for the behavior of Democrats.

Democrats are. Nice try.

-Hoot

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

72. I didn't say that they were.

I said that I didn't care.

[Jacobin]

73. They belong at the Hague. Its just that simple

They are complicit in war crimes. They have defiled the constitution which requires that we honor the Geneva Conventions among other treaties.

They are beyond redemption. They are war criminals

[Vinca]

74. Democrats who voted in the affirmative have directly contributed

to the end of our great nation. Not torturing people is about all we have left and the Republicans are determined to take that away and turn us into a country Idi Amin would be proud to lead. There's a time when principle needs to take precedence over how a particular vote will impact a candidate's vote. Harold Ford, Jr., in particular, is a huge disappointment.

[NoPasaran]

76. I'm a tad upset

But the responsibilty for this bill lies with Bush and the other criminals in this regime and the fascistic, neo-con bootlicking REPUBLICAN party.

[tomreedtoon]

80. Is anyone taking this to the Democratic Convention?

I could never be a delegate. I don't have time off. I don't have time or wealth or health. But some of you might.

If the Democratic Party is cowardly, how about convincing enough delegates to put forward some planks at the party convention? Not making it a lovefest for whatever candidate is pre-selected by the primaries, but make it a true argument for the party's soul?

This isn't a case of Chicago 1968, where the protestors were being suppressed by the convention with the Chicago Police. This is a case of what appears to be a strong element of the Party - the workers, the people who work the polls and the phones - demanding courage from the Party apparatus.

Sure, you're mad at Bush. A lot of people are now. But you should be equally as mad at the people who have caved in to Bush, the people of the party like Lieberman and Kerry whose only bugle call is retreat. Make your feelings known at the convention.

[Nutmegger]

82. KICK - just passed the Senate without a filibuster! [nt]

[madmusic]

85. And ALL the Dem amendments were voted down.

So the spoiled brat gets anything he wants again.

[KG]

86. not upset at all. coz i'm not surprised the dem party caved on this issue