My Jewish friend said it's Ok to find out what you are doing with taps

[IChing]

to find out about terrorism.

Love him dearly, but I called him a Fascist and hung up.
He was a radical in the 60s but now a stanch supporter of Israel, no matter who rules
Israel had tyrant kings in the bible I pointed out.

so sad
for me
a good friend lost for now.

His wife is a Dane, and she thinks he is turning uber right and she is turning back to uber left.

The german Uber does better than danish.

sorry for the rant.

[PDJane]

1. s'ok.

If you can't rant among friends............

[cry baby]

2. so sorry, that just sucks!

[rockymountaindem]

3. I would ask him to clarify

There are two kinds of wiretaps: those authorized by courts for legit intelligence and law enforcement purposes, and those now catching flak for not being court-authorized. Ask him if he supports the latter, rather than just "wiretaps" in general. The first kind is necessary, the second kind, as I can tell so far, is against the law. That's a big difference.

[IChing]

5. he watches fox for his news now

does that answer your question.

she has about given up and wants to go back but has a son here.
My children grew up with them at a time but are back in denmark.

My kids know about 9-11, the lie that our govt. did, through their own scientific and educational awareness, they are adults.
his son is going into world banking, no shit, no lie, and is working in NY, brilliant kid.

Oh well, time to move on.

[Whoa_Nelly]

4. Gosh, IChing

Sorry to learn about what happened. It's hard to have this happen, but in my life have gotten to the point that it's important to be truthful with friends no matter waht.....or to call a truce to discussing the things we disagree on. I have a very right-wing friend...we've been close for almost 50 years. When bush took office we agreed to disagree and to skip politics with each other. We are still close.

yet, there have been a few in the past 10 years that were so far out there in their beliefs about the world, I was blunt. Have yet to hear back from them.

For you...and for your friend :hug:

[IChing]

7. so is life but I will make my stance

that hell and high water will bring me to.
I morally cannot do anything less than that.

[Whoa_Nelly]

12. Believe and know

It's a wise person who keeps beliefs alive and true, and also know the difference between life on their terms and entering battle.

xo

Nelly

[IChing]

13. Thanks for that we believe in freedom of

speech, thought, print and non violent actions that should not be
looked at as terror.
I told him about the quakers, the quakers, just listen to that word
and that thought on christian belief,
or for that matter living in a fault zone of truth.

We have until 2006 to make this thing happen, be aware on choice afterwards.

[FreedomAngel82]

6. Ask if they'd like President Hillary Clinton spying on him

[CottonBear]

8. I have a Jewish girlfriend who voted for Bush. Go figure.

Her husband is Mass. Irish - Catholic, hockey kind of guy. She's from the Boston area too. She knows I hate Bush. I hpoe they'll vote differently in 2006 and 2008. SHe was too lazy to vote in 2004 so her Bush vote didn't register. I'll work on her.

[Imagevision]

9. ASk him if it would be ok for Bush to monitor him would he mind?

[KitSileya]

10. Actually, as was suggested up thread,

the thing to ask him is whether he would mind a Dem president to monitor him. That should bring him up short. Would he mind if Palestinian sympathizers used the same methods? The epitome of a fair deal is that neither would mind if the tables were turned. The same with things that affect our basic rights as humans. Would the rightwingnuts mind if they weren't allowd to marry like gays can't? Would men mind if they were forced to raise the children women are forced to bear if Roe is overturned? Would rich people mind having no access to healthcare same as poor people? Would pro-war people mind if China invaded the US because it used WMD?

[Union Thug]

11. Americans accepting of domestic spying...This IS NOT the America...

I grew up in. And frankly, if this is the world they want, they can fucking have it.

[Ravenseye]

21. That's not the issue.

That's what the Republicans want the issue to be, but that's not it.

Americans have always been accepting of domestic spying. The FBI has used wiretaps to capture murderers, organized crime and mob bosses, drug dealers, and more. Nobody questions those, because they all have warrants attached to them.

We're fine with surveillance, as long as there is an independent court which provides the warrants on a case by case basis.

Same thing here. Bush having people spy on Americans isn't the issue. The issue is that the law specifically states that they need to get a warrant in order to spy on us. Bush says that sometimes you don't have time to get the warrant and need to act fast. This is why for these cases the law allows you to do a wiretap and get the warrant AFTER the fact.

Bush simply didn't do that. He had American's spied on, and even though he had weeks after these taps to get a warrant, he didn't have the people do it. NObody knows who was spied upon, nobody knows what they're doing. There is Zero oversight.

THAT is the problem.

Bush's only other response to that is that the Patriot Act gives him the authority to do 'whatever is necessary to prosecute terrorism', which is further proof that the Patriot ACt is a bad thing. What if he feels that rounding up all Arab Americans is necessary to prosecute the war on terrorism? Can he do that too? The Patriot ACt says he can do whatever is necessary. If it's ok for wiretaps is it ok for just holding thousands, or even millions of americans in prisons with no charges, or even evidence?

[Lexingtonian]

14. He might just be being consistent

Not that I would know, but maybe paranoia and an intolerance for suffering were his fundamental motivations in the Sixties too.

These can be reasonable for short periods of time. But when they become character, the real loss is in dignity and nobility.

And historically, why did people, e.g. Jews, work so hard for emancipation from their ghettos? Because ghettos are defined by indignity and ignobility.

[IChing]

15. His emancipation is only his now

I have proven him wrong with logic before, but tonight his wife warned me of his is turning

He just came back from Denmark after 22 years and was amazed.
He is 62 young and we shall see.

I will send him some things on Fascism tomorrow, if he is willing to read and think again
I think I did the best thing, for now, we shall see on how to change
CONSCIOUSNESS
ONE PERSON AT A TIME.

THANKS EVERYONE FOR BEING THERE.

[cali]

16. Can't believe no one has called you on this

"My Jewish friend". Why put in that descriptor? What does his being Jewish have to do with his support for unlawful spying?

[npincus]

18. I thought so, too.

we are 'progressives', aren't we?

[npincus]

17. stupidity is non-denominational

We Jews do not think, act and vote as one bloc. Projecting expectations or values on anyone because of race or religion is....(fill in the blank).

Come on, you know better than that. He was your friend before your disagreement, and now he is your "Jewish" friend because you are mad at him?

Personally, if you love your friend perhaps you can overlook (or forgive) his ideological differences and appreciate him for his other attributes. I have a friend who voted for Bush- I just try to put it out of my mind... otherwise she's a very good person and has been there for me when others weren't.

[no_hypocrisy]

19. Beyond ironic. This is incredible hypocrisy.

It's like a Jew in Weimar Germany voting for Hitler to improve the economy.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Carni]

20. But bushit already HAD THAT CAPABILITY

This is what pisses me off...bushit and company could already spy on calls, they just needed to follow procedure and have OIPR file the damned paperwork with FISA and seek a warrant within 72 hours after the start of the tapping (basically)so there would be some oversight.

With bushit's illegal method of wire tapping there is no oversight...we have no way of knowing who they are listening in on, or for what purpose--

Why the hell don't people like your friend *GET IT*???

Bill Maher also commented that he didn't see a problem with this the other night on Larry King (I think it was on Larry King)

WTF is wrong with these people?

[SmokingJacket]

22. Ask him if it's okay if Bush spies on non-terrorists...

Many Israelis have a no-tolerance stance on terrorism, which comes out of a practical concern for their country. I get that (though I don't support their treatment of the Palestinians...)

HOWEVER... what Bush is doing actually has nothing to do with terrorism. It's a convenient cover for rolling over all limits on executive power.

I think it's better to talk, try to get him to separate his feelings about Israel from his understanding of what Bush is actually doing.

[Heewack]

23. Lose a friend over a difference of opinion?

Wow! I wouldn't have any friends if they all had to agree with me on everything.

Why the intolerance?

[Don Claybrook]

24. Why the accusation?

Do you disagree with your friends on base issues such as this, or do you have friendships that remain solely on the surface?

Should people in Germany in the 30's have broken off friendships with Nazi sympathizers? I submit that many millions of people wouldn't have died at the hands of Hitler had enough people denounced their so-called friends.

A belated welcome. You probably don't need it, since you seem quite comfortable throwing accusations around with a just a few posts under the belt.