What's the best stance for Dems on the torture bill?

[femmedem]

[femmedem]

1. The Center for Constitutional Rights is pushing for the amendment.

I wanted to ask DU'ers what they thought about it. I'm strongly leaning towards filibuster, but I wanted more input before I call my Senators. I live in CT, and Lieberman is on their list as one of the critical votes.

[BootinUp]

2. Amend the bill big time or filibuster it.

Make the case for the amendments, there are enough voices out there on this issue in the media, retired officers, etc.

[femmedem]

3. Booman thinks we need a poison pill amendment.

http://www.boomantribune.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2006/9/23/22712/1840

[BootinUp]

6. Your link is broken

interesting idea though.

[femmedem]

7. Hmm. Try this.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/23/2516/88560

[BootinUp]

11. thanks.

I am a little discouraged. Seems like the Dems are not preparing to fight it. How hard is it to poison the legislation, how does the amendment process work?

[femmedem]

12. I'm not sure how it works either, But I just got off the phone

with Senator Dodd's office. Dodd, who's father was a Nuremberg prosecutor, has been good on torture. He lambasted Gonzales and is one of too few cosponsors of the languishing bill to ban extraordinary renditions.

I told his staffer how opposed I was to the bill, and then confessed my confusion as to how best to combat it. Filibuster? Poison pill? Amendments to protect habeus corpus and prevent redefinition of torture? Secret block?

"The Senator has a number of tools he could use," I said. "Has he indicated what he's going to do?"

The staffer said he hadn't, but reiterated his belief in Geneva Conventions. I asked if they were getting many calls on this, and the staffer said yes, but most weren't advocating a particular solution.

When I asked if filibuster was a real possibility, the staffer said she wasn't sure yet if they had enough support.

The poison pill suggestion seemed to be something the staffer hadn't considered. I heard a little gasp. Actually, we chuckled darkly over what some poison pill suggestions might be.

I have to admit, I would have more faith in Dodd's determinationt to oppose this if he weren't testing the waters about a presidential bid. For some reason, that seems to suck the spine right out of most politicioans.

[BlueJac]

4. Put a secret hold on it until mid- November

[femmedem]

5. That sounds good! Can you explain to me how this works?

I remember something about this with that Alaskan bridge-to-nowhere Senator recently.

[TahitiNut]

8. A vote for the Fascist Inquisition is a vote for unleashed tyranny.

I have a hard time thinking that any worse legislation has ever been allowed out of committee. Not even the (so-called) Patriot Act plummeted us as deeply into the abominations of tyrannical rule. The wholesale surrender of human rights is appalling. No "Mirandizing" ... no habeas corpus, right to an attorney, right to confront one's accusers, right to examine and challenge evidence, right to access exculpatory evidence ... this is every bit the same as the Inquisition!

The mere accusation is, in effect, a condemnation to limitless imprisonment and abuse - without the barest of respect for human rights.

[MadHound]

9. It is absolutely, utterly, positively neccessary for the Dems

To oppose this legislation with every tool at their disposal. Hit it on the hill with a filibuster, shut down the government if they have to, take to the bully pulpit and the media. This bill has got to be stopped, the future of America as we know it is at stake. The Dems may go down on this one, but they had better go down with all guns blazing. If they roll over like they did on the Patriot Act and so much else, that's it, they're toast, and so many people will abandon the party that the Dems will never win another election and will die on the dustbin of history.

This is a constitutional crisis of historic proportions, and the Dems have absolutely got to rise to the occaision. Otherwise they are just spineless cowards who don't deserve to hold any office, including dogcatcher.

[Marr]

10. If they don't filibuster this bill, they've lost my support.

[Solly Mack]

13. the "hold your nose" option should read more honest

and say "hold your nose and support torture in order to look tough on terror"

sorry...but if you're going to support something, at least be honest about what you're supporting

and a yes on that bill is a vote for torture

it shields all violations of the war crimes act of 1996 all the way back to 1997 if those crimes no longer meet the newly rewritten (less stringent) law

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2214668&mesg_id=2214770


it doesn't stop those "alternate means of interrogation"


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2211621&mesg_id=2211621
it's a bill to legitimize torture

don't lie to yourself and call it anything else

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2207968&mesg_id=2207968

framing support of torture as being tough on terror instead of calling it exactly what it is is dishonest

it's dishonest when republicans do it...it's no less dishonest when anyone else does it

[femmedem]

15. I almost didn't put it in as an option at all.

Only at the very last minute did it occur to me that someone might want that as an option. I'm surprised that so many DU'ers voted to support the bill as it stands.

[Solly Mack]

16. Ask yourself why they need - not want - but need that option

You won't like the answer

I'm not surprised. Some on DU will be outraged by an issue - and I mean vehemently so - until they come face to face with the fact that Democrats just might vote for that outrage...so they need to rationalize it.

I don't know how the vote will go...or how anyone in Congress will vote

but I do know this...torture is wrong. This bill is wrong.You can't legitimize torture one day and regain your honor the next. If you vote to support this bill now, how can you later claim Bush was wrong when he called for torture,people detained indefinitely, renditions, lack of due process? How do you support immunity for war crimes and still hold the war criminals responsible?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. To hell with what's good for the party. What's good for humanity?

This shouldn't even be a question of political gain/loss.

[Rosco T.]

17. Have a few Dem's put a 'secret hold' on the bill...

.. till after the election.

[sandnsea]

18. Save The Constitution - filibuster n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. Filibuster AND publicize their reasons for doing so

Get interviews with all their local media explaining WHY they're filibustering and outlining the Constitutional questions in simple language, e.g. "No country that has allowed torture has ever STOPPED by just torturing supposed 'bad guys.' Once it's okay to torture supposed bad guys, they start torturing the friends and family of the accused, and then anyone whose looks they don't like."

[femmedem]

20. Amen to that.

And I'm not even religious.