Once you've justified torture, you are no longer a Christian. Period.

[Philosoraptor]

Plain and simple. If you profess to follow Christ and his teachings, and you can condone and justify and accept torture of prisoners as good, then you are in fact no longer a Christian by default.

You can't be. The two do not go together. You cannot accept torture, even on your worst enemy, and claim to be a follower of Jesus. Period.

When you hear a so called Christian explaining away and justifying torture, call them on it, right on the spot, and their answer will reveal them.

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.

[Benhurst]

1. You are thinking of the old Jesus, Prince of Peace,

not the new, improved, BushAmerican Jesus, God of War.

[KansDem]

40. You might appreciate this thread from two years ago (oldie but goodie)

All Hail the NEW and improved EXTREME JESUS!

From the venerable mopaul

[Benhurst]

48. Thanks.

:hi:

[no_hypocrisy]

2. I guess this new crop of Christians have forgotten that the Romans had

plenty of good, "justifiable" reasons for torturing their savior, Jesus. They simply don't recognize the cross as a basic device of torture for that historical era.

[Lerkfish]

9. plenty of current crop liberal christians understand that.

just sayin.

fundies are not the only christians.

[bobbolink]

59. It's kinda hard to remember the cross as torture, when the cross

you're wearing is a beautiful piece of jewelry.

:shrug:

[Crazy Dave]

3. And just like the Jihadists

They claim it's in the name of God when they blow up an abortion clinic or shot the doctors and staff.

Most right wing christians totally reject the bible teachings and come up with their own interpretations. Like where it teaches about helping the poor. They will tell you it means that God helps those who help themselves so helping the poor means giving them a paperback bible.

[Midlodemocrat]

6. In my personal experience, it's the fundies who are obsessed with

the Old Testament rather than the teachings of Christ. Which, begs the question, why don't they call themselves Mosians rather than Christians?

[Lerkfish]

10. more accurately, its convenient use of either testament to their advantage

if they want to apply judgement on others, they use the old testament. If they want to excuse their own behaviour, they use new testament.

They have it backwards, IMHO.

[tanyev]

17. They favor the Pick and Choose Version of the Bible.

[Bill McBlueState]

27. if they follow the Old Testament and ignore the New Testament,

doesn't that make them Jews? Yet, the Jews I know aren't any more likely to be bloodthirsty loonies than the Christians I know. It's more complicated than one's choice of holy book.

[rrasile]

54. Christian what.

Are these people what they call "Born Again". The ones with the huge buildings they all a church.
I see them in the midwest, they have big antennas to pull in Gods message. The same people that have crowded up our broadcast bands.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Amen

Brother Philo, amen.

[C_U_L8R]

5. just say the word tort*re

and it's a ticket to hell

even post the word torture and
....awww crap.

[izzie]

7. Or a Christian of the Middle Ages. They were good at it.

Dunking stools were even used in this country in the early days. And we drove Indians. men. women and children out of the east into the West on a forced march. Christians have not always been so great on this subject. We just set in our mind that they are not people like us so we can do as we please.

[Lerkfish]

8. agreed. and I am a liberal christian, I would NEVER condone torture, or

war for that matter.

back before the 2004 election, I had a huge falling out with a fundie relative who declared I could not be a christian and support Kerry, because he supports abortion (inaccurate characterization, but whatever).

I sooooooo want to email that relative back and ask how he can support bush re: torture, but we left the last falling out with an agreement not to send political things back and forth.

[thecrow]

25. I had that problem too

and in the end made him agree to only send scientific articles and fish stories.
THis morning I got a letter from this person about a move to act against "Madonna's mocking the crucifixion"
And it was signed with an equally obnoxious statement that
"more civilians were killed on 911 than military personnel in the Pearl Harbor attack:.

I sent him my new sig:

[ProgressiveEconomist]

26. Whatever happened to religious objection to ALL war and violence?

Did it leave the front pages ov newspapers when the Draft ended, so that children of the upper-middle-class were no longer forced to risk their lives overseas?

[Lerkfish]

29. why are you asking me, when I just said I object to ALL war and violence?

not sure I understand what you're getting at.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

33. Your post was the first I've seen in a long time to oppose war

in general. I was simply wondering why there weren't more like you on this board, in the media, etc. You're like an endangered species.

[Lerkfish]

36. That would be sad if true.

:(

there are many liberal christians on this board, I'm not the only one.

[BoneDaddy]

11. You also forgot

that if you are a Christian you should be:

Against War
Against the Death Penalty
Compassionate
Tolerant
Peaceful
Loving

Oh wait, Jesus was a liberal.

[zeemike]

12. And you forgot a few things

Like
Being against public prayer
But hell that makes the fundies followers of Mammon not Jesus. So rightfully they should be called Mammonites.

[rasputin1952]

20. Indeed, Jesus was a Liberal; and the Disciples and many who

followed after were what many would consider "Socialists" now. The idea was to share all they had and to ensure they did what they could to alleviate suffering of those that were downcast within their sphere of influence. They were Progressive, they tried to throw off the shackles of oppression through peaceful means....think Ghandi in a more contemporary light.

As for torture...many of the contemporary "Conservative" Christians are the first ones to decry the torture of Jesus under the Romans. That torture was "immoral" in their eyes, but they fail to see that ALL torture is immoral. There is no excuse or rationale for torture that passes any form of "smell" test; there is only the rationalization that sadists can continue their craft under the guise of "law".

[NNN0LHI]

13. A torturer is not a human being. They just resemble one

Torturers need to be incarcerated forever. They will never change.

Don

[Random_Australian]

14. Not that this makes them atheists, of course.

Just confirm that you agree with that, would someone?

[lukasahero]

16. It doesn't make them atheists, it makes them

hypocrites.

[Random_Australian]

18. Good. There have been atheist-slurring incidents in the past, you see.

Just wanted to make sure it was all clear.

And yes, among the long list of unpleasant things RW'ers are, hypocrisy is certainly there.

[trotsky]

15. Are you saying that true Christians can't believe in hell, then? n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

34. That's an excellent question.

I hope someone answers it. Because, according to traditional Christian theology, most people who have ever lived will be tortured for eternity. That's not exactly a clear condemnation of the practice.

[Philosoraptor]

37. if one truly believed in eternal hell, one wouldn't make wars

[trotsky]

41. Not sure I understand.

Are you saying that Christians who DO believe in hell wouldn't start a war?

Or that Christians who believe in hell are refraining from bad behavior just because they fear punishment?

Please explain.

[Philosoraptor]

43. not sure I do either

the giver of the law says to kill one person gets you sent to hell forever. A true God fearing Christian would go way out of his or her way to avoid killing an innocent person and going to hell forever.

However, Bad Christians all through history have reckoned not upon hell while doing most hellish deeds.

[trotsky]

45. So, good Christians DO believe in hell?

In that case, why would a good Christian have a problem with torture? Unless I've read the brochures wrong, and hell is actually sort of a Club Med kind of arrangement...

[bigbrother05]

46. The torture in hell is visited on the wretched

because of God's judgment, not man's (Judge not, lest ye be judged). There is no contradiction between believing in hell and condemning torture. To participate or condone torture would seem to be a clear one-way ticket to the underworld. The general feeling is that the martyr (one being tortured for their beliefs) is on the path to heaven.

[trotsky]

47. So torture is A-OK as long as your god does it?

Will you be smiling in heaven looking down at all the wicked folks burning forever?

[Igel]

56. Not all Xians

believe in hell.

In their version of the afterlife, you're resurrected immortal, or you're simply killed off after judgment (or left dead, per some). No eternal torture; just execution (or non-resurrection) by God because you're defective.

The Xians in that group tend to be very OT in nature (they tithe, condemn adultery, don't eat shrimp, and keep the sabbath), but they also tend to be pacifist and very non-judgmental. No military service, even in WWII. No sitting on juries.

[trotsky]

57. I fully realize that.

I wanted to see how the ones that did, justified their non-torture stance.

FYI, as I've seen on this board, there are quite a few liberal, tolerant Christians who still think that at least some people will be tortured for eternity.

[Igel]

64. The "torture for eternity" always

struck me as weird. Never quite got it, when my father made me go to Presbyterian Sunday School. Even the "hell is just eternal separation from God, and that is torture" struck me as sadistic.

[Swede]

50. That's right.

Jesus was not a biblical literalist. He asks us to forgive and love our enemies. If Christ asks us to unlock our hearts by praying for someone who has inflicted unforgettable damage on us, would God damn to eternal hellfire every creature who has failed life’s course? "Your enemy be damned," was no part of his gospel.

[trotsky]

53. But according to the bible, Jesus himself spoke of hell.

The weeping, the gnashing of teeth, the fire that shall not be quenched. He actually mentioned it in many places, and not in the context of a parable. Are those parts of the bible wrong?

[bleedingheart]

19. "Christians" have morphed religion to fit their needs

it is an age old tradition...

There are folks out there the feel that all they need to do is believe that Jesus was the son of god and accept him as a "personal" savior...they can torture all they want cuz...Jesus is their personal savior...kind of like having a personal shopper but in this case because they believe in him...that is enough to save themselves from damnation after a day of torturing inmates...

[texpatriot2004]

21. Amen! nm

[bullwinkle428]

22. "But this is 2006 - the Bible was written in...1978!"

"It's a whole new world...the rules have changed!"

:sarcasm:

[michaelpush]

23. Even though I am Agnostic

I still believe in the moral teachings of Jesus, which, is impossible for most people to follow 100%. It is clear that Jesus taught by word and example that violence is wrong, and, that the only way to defeat evil is not to confront it but to weaken it by doing good. This concept is right. However, our government does just the opposite, therefor, actually making evil stronger and causing havoc throughout our country and the World. The end result is more suffering and turmoil, not less. The end result is more evil, not less. The end result is more hate, not less, we are not safer, we become the evil that we claim to be fighting.

[BeFree]

24. Jesus was one cool dude

He pegged it: turn thy cheek. Love thine enemy. Etc.

Ain't it odd that if you spell live, backwards, it spells ....
Seems too many believers live backwards, eh?

I tell folks that as a Christian, I can not support war. End of argument, except for those who aren't Christians, then we get down too it.

[ShortnFiery]

28. Agreed. Who would Jesus Waterboard? :( eom

[gully]

30. I was just thinking this "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO U"

Absolutely. Do we want our soldiers cut and waterboarded?

[Jade Fox]

31. You can't justify war either....

if I'm remembering my Christian education correctly. You would "turn the other cheek" rather than engage in a battle that could harm another.

[glitch]

32. Or greed - the bush brand of christian fails on every true test of faith,

might be easier to see if there are any tests that they can pass.

(crickets)


edit to add: Marianas; sex slavery, child labor and forced abortions.

[BrotherBuzz]

35. I thought this new brand of Christianity had an automatic do over

If they profess to follow Christ and his teachings, all sin is forgiven. They believe they can do it over, and over, and over again. Heck, they just check their brains at the door, pick up theirr crayons, and start picking and choosing scripture that fits their needs.

That's the way I see it happening. :shrug:

[The Count]

38. Or a human being, for that matter.

[tenshi816]

39. Very concisely and profoundly stated.

I hope you don't mind if we borrow your words to challenge "Christians". Not real Christians, but the kind of faux Christians you're referring to.

[lpbk2713]

42. This brings to mind Pat Robertson advocating the murder of Hugo Chavez

He was sure all his followers would line up right behind him but he humbly backed off after he started getting heat over what he so foolishly said. No doubt he still thinks that way but he won't say so in public again.

[npincus]

44. Jews don't care much for it either.

[file83]

49. You are no longer an AMERICAN either. n/t

[Spearman87]

51. I thought you could justify just about anything

.....if you looked through the Bible or the Quran long enough--even the New Testiment. There seems to be something for everyone, even genocidists. And I'm not anti-Christian of anti-Bible either. But I need an expert interpreter half the time I'm delving through the Bible

[Hubert Flottz]

52. That's unless you are torturing someone for their own good.

They USE God to jusitify anything they dream up! God is a crutch to the rabid Reich!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. They can call themselves whatever they choose.

But when they face the music, they are going to be very surprised. I believe that to my soul.

[petgoat]

58. Protest Torture October 5th.

Nationwide day of repudiation.



http://www.worldcantwait.net/




Get a cheap jumpsuit on ebay and spray paint it orange. Put a pillowcase on
your head and you're a one-person demonstration.

I like to kneel across the street outside churches when the 10:00 is
letting out and the 11:00 is going in. In half an hour I can influence
several hundred people to consider the hypocrisy of professing "turn the
other cheek" and "love thine enemy" when we torture people.

[petgoat]

60. Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action

was recently issued by Dr. David Ray Griffin.

Christianity Today reviews it here

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/131/12.0.html


The September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks were orchestrated by the U.S. government, according to a book to be released later this month by Westminster John Knox Press—a division of the denominational publisher for the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11: A Call to Reflection and Action is the third book on the subject by David Ray Griffin, a professor emeritus of theology at Claremont School of Theology who is also a well-published and prominent process theologian.

[kansasblue]

61. Torture Is Terrorism!

nuff said

[GeorgeGist]

62. Hmmm.....

According to Christian belief, Jesus allowed himself to be tortured for the sole benefit of Christians.

[Freddie Stubbs]

63. The same argument has been made about supporting abortion and

the death penalty.

[chat_noir]

65. WHO WOULD JESUS TORTURE protests needed at fundy churches

REAL Christians would be bothered. Would a WHO WOULD JESUS TORTURE? sign cause them any distress?

[Zhade]

66. Torquemada was a torturing Christian.

The Roman Catholic Church used torture extensively for hundreds of years.

The fact is, they *were* Christians, just really evil ones. And I do recall that the purported Christian savior is alleged to have said none of his followers can judge another's heart (or faith). Supposedly, or so the story goes, that's up to their god.

Time to face the truth: hideously maleficent people can be and have been Christian throughout history. As it only takes a declaration of belief in 'Jesus as LORD' to be considered Christian, and no one - not I, not you - can divine their true internal beliefs, one really cannot honestly claim that someone is not a Christian based on personal differences in interpretation of the religion (since neither you nor the fundie have the evidence necessary to cement your stance as THE 'true' way Christianity should be practiced).

You can't write off people who profess to follow Christ but commit evil just because you want Christianity to equate with selfless good. It's dishonest, because you cannot possibly know what your god thinks about that person's beliefs, and it's apparently not up to you, per the teachings of your holy book.

But if you want to say they're horrible Christian people, I'm right there with you - not because I want Christianity to equate with evil, but because it's an honest stance to take.