I hereby RESURRECT the Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing

[Nutmegger]

Falsehood Debunking Thread!!!

Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread!!!

Thanks to JohnnyCougar, the OP of that thread, for putting it together.

This is the first tool we have to combat the Chavez lies. Someone says that he's a dictator? FALSE! Someone agrees that he is destroying the economy? Well, you know what to say. And you'll be able to say it well thanks to the wealth of information in that thread. It's time to fight disinformation with information; ignorance with truth.

Please join me in adding the Chavez debunking thread to your signature. Just enter the code with brackets instead of braces.

{link:www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=311462|Official DU Hugo Chavez Right-Wing Falsehood Debunking Thread!!!}

Now, I will post a few snippets for those who are not fond of clicking on links today.

Chavez is attempting to censor political speech and take control of the Venezuelan media.

After the corrupt right-wing media in Venezuela inspired a coup, kidnapping and later a ridiculous attempt to recall Chavez, as well as violent protests, Chavez made an anti-slander law to curb the false propaganda the private media was spreading. While no one, to my knowledge has been arrested for violating this law, it has worked to curb some of the anti-Chavez propaganda and racist remarks made in the private Venezuelan media. When asked in October if Chavez would actually arrest anybody with this law, he responded: "I am not going to accuse anyone because they insult me, I don’t care if they call me names, I don’t care what they say about me. Generally I do as Don Qixote said, if the dogs are barking it’s because we are working." Furthermore, there are many opposition media outlets in Venezuela, and only one state-owned outlet. Chavez could shut the opposition channels down, but he doesn't. He just limits the racist, riot-causing propaganda they usually encourage.

Chavez is hurting the economy

According to a press release in mid-2005, Venezuela has the fastest-growing economy in Latin America, with growth rates in the first two quarters of 7.5% and 11.1%, respectively. It had a 17.8% growth rate in 2004. The non-oil sectors grew at a faster pace than the oil sector, rising 8.7% and 12.1% in the first two quarters of 2005. Venezuela's economy is growing at the second-fastest rate in the world, topped only by China. Furthermore, Chavez's programs are wiping out illiteracy and providing healthcare to the poor for the first time ever. He has also been the first President to really enforce Venezuela's tax laws. The rich were getting away with cheating on their taxes time and time again. He has considerably raised the minimum wage. So basically, Hugo is allowing private enterprise to flourish (despite requiring them to follow tax laws) and still using money to support the poor. What he has already done has been nothing but a victory for human rights in Venezuela. Millions upon millions of people now have hope and health that would have never had it otherwise. But despite this, false right-wing anti-Chavez propaganda continues to circulate around the echo chamber...even on DU.

Chavez has taken control of the Citgo oil company and used parts of its profits to start schools and free healthcare clinics for Venezuela's massive poor. This totally angered the right wing. But since Chavez has become president, Venezuela's poor are much healthier, millions of people can now read, and he is attempting to diversify Venezuela's economy. The people there love him. He is the first leader that actually cared about him in forever.

[KingFlorez]

1. Good post

[Fridays Child]

2. Let's go to the Greatest page with this.

Viva Chavez!

[Spazito]

3. Thanks for the link and the timely reminder!

Much appreciated.

[rinsd]

4. That first one is outright laughable

The argument is that the insult law is not oppressive because no one has been arrested but lauds the laws effectiveness at curbing "propaganda".

What a fucked up take on free speech. People freaked out because Ari Fleischer said to watch what we say shortly after 9/11, this guy codifies into law that it is illegal to disrespect the President and some Duers actually cheer the fucking law!

Chavez certainly isn't the worst guy in the world but that defense of the insult law is cringe inducing.

[skids]

10. Not really.

The other example of supposedly repressive measures is the law to regulate broadcasters: the Law on Social Responsibility in Radio and Television. This law introduces many provisions that exist in most countries in the world, regulating such things as the scheduling of sex and violence on television\u2014so as to protect children\u2014, the prohibition of alcohol and tobacco advertisements, and stipulations for the proportion of domestically and independently produced content\u2014so as to maintain diversity and Venezuelan culture. Many of these provisions have been relatively uncontroversial for most people. What the opposition objects to most is the setting up of media boards to enforce the regulations because they fear that the boards would be dominated by Chavez supporters. That is, according to the opposition, any minor infraction could be used to politically sanction the broadcast media, which are essentially part of the opposition and do not respect the traditional norms of journalistic objectivity or even factual accuracy in their efforts to get rid of the government.

For pro-Chávez lawmakers, however, the law fills an important gap in Venezuelan media law. According to them, there are sufficient checks and balances to ensure that the law is not applied as a political instrument to censor the opposition. As evidence for Chavista restraint, a pro-Chavez former Supreme Court judge, Carlos Escarrá, recently pointed out that there is a presidential decree still on the books, written by President Jaime Lusinchi (1984-1989), that is much more restrictive than the new media regulation law. In theory, Chavez could have applied this decree for political purposes on numerous occasions (as did Lusinchi when he temporarily closed two TV channels), but has not done so, even though the media has violated this decree repeatedly, often going so far as to distort and falsify the news, as happened during the April 2002 coup attempt.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1344

[rinsd]

16. Again the logic is wrong

Its be "thankful Chavez is not squashing you because he could". Is that the attitude you want the government to have towards the media? I hate our FCC now especially as its become a place for republicans to placate their base by coming down hard on "indecency".

And venezuelaanylysis bitching about propanaganda when they are Chavez's internet information arm is funny.

[skids]

27. The point...

...is that Venezuela's laws on this matter are in no way special when compared to the laws of other countries. Now whether or not the laws of other countries are good, that's a matter for debate, but singling out Venezuela cannot be done (for any good reason.)

[Judi Lynn]

21. It's hard to argue about the truth of this article.

Clowns can bitch about a source, but it's the CONTENT of the article which matters: accuracy.

Any attempt to discredit the content would have to accompany proof the information was at fault. There's the passage you excerpted which bears rereading, as it's very important, and not likely to EVER be discredited, and that's clear!

As evidence for Chavista restraint, a pro-Chavez former Supreme Court judge, Carlos Escarrá, recently pointed out that there is a presidential decree still on the books, written by President Jaime Lusinchi (1984-1989), that is much more restrictive than the new media regulation law. In theory, Chavez could have applied this decree for political purposes on numerous occasions (as did Lusinchi when he temporarily closed two TV channels), but has not done so, even though the media has violated this decree repeatedly, often going so far as to distort and falsify the news, as happened during the April 2002 coup attempt.

Thanks for the info.!

[me b zola]

5. Thanks

:beer:

[eleny]

6. K&R

[Joanne98]

7. Here's Hugo Chavez WIKIPEDIA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez

It's pretty honest!

[Snivi Yllom]

8. that's missing a lot of the economic picture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela

-There is considerable income inequality. According to official sources, the percentage of poor and extremely poor among the Venezuelan population increased from 39.4% in 1995 to 48.1% in 2002. This increase has been due primarily to lower real wages earned by employees and increased unemployment. Inflation (CPI)is at 16% (2005 est.)

-Venezuela's labor force of about 12.05 million is growing faster than total employment. In August 2003, official unemployment was 17.8%, but unofficial estimates are over 20%. The public sector employs about 15% of the work force, while less than 1% work in the capital-intensive oil industry.In 2002, the oil industry sector accounted for roughly a quarter of GDP, 73% of export earnings, and about half of central government's operating revenues. Venezuela's economy is dependent on oil, but only a fraction its jobs are oil related.

-According to official sources, the percentage of poor and extremely poor among the Venezuelan population increased from 39.4% in 1995 to 48.1% in 2002.

-Economic improvement in Venezuela in the last few years is entirely tied to oil production and the price of oil. Watch for the economy to turn downwards as the price of oil comes down.

-Venezuela fudges its unemployment numbers to drop off

-down the road, when oil reserves run dry, and alternative energy sources become more widespread, Venezuela's oil reliant economy will collapse.

[Joanne98]

9. The US has been fudging it's unemployment numbers my whole life!

I think he's doing a fine job considering all the attacks he lives with.

[Snivi Yllom]

12. yes its dishonest when the Fed fudges the figures

and it's wrong in both countries

[Joanne98]

20. It's American policy to LIE!

[Selatius]

11. Most of those numbers omit progress post coup d'etat

2002 to 2006 is a lot of information being omitted.

Also, Hugo Chavez didn't enter office until 1999 after winning the previous year's presidential election.

The last time I checked, Venezuela's economy was growing almost as fast if not faster than China's.

There is a reason why the partiality of articles dealing with Chavez and Venezuela are in dispute on Wikipedia, and it's because of politics tainting the process.

[Snivi Yllom]

19. VZ economy is growing after leaving a deep recession

The recession which started when oil prices dipped in 199, became a full blown recession caused by a general strike cutting oil exports. The oil industry provides a tiny percentage of the total employment but 80% of exports.

The poverty line and inflation stats are not in dispute. Nor is the total reliance of their GDP on oil exports, primarily to the US. Many areas of the Venezuela are subject to electricity rationing.

In a 2005 IMF global ranking, Venezuela is ranked 96th in GDP per capita.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

And this Wikipedia article is not in dispute. Read it again.

[Selatius]

23. I don't dispute a word in your post

But your previous post seemed to lack a lot of statistics post coup d'etat, and I don't dispute Venezuela's ranking.

What I would say though is if Venezuelan leaders of the past had taken care of their people like they should have, then the wealth generated from the oil sales would've been distributed more fairly among the populace than it has been instead of circulating largely among a small number of wealthy people. In this case, I would say Chavez is doing the right thing by investing in infrastructure, health care, public education, job training, land reform, etc.

[Snivi Yllom]

30. Except Chavez is building Venezuela's future in a house of cards

It's almost entirely based on oil production

The public spending is admirable and no doubt is doing some good, but long term Venezuela has a huge problem that Chavez is not addressing.

Oil is not a renewable energy source and is finite.

[Selatius]

32. Well, there is no indication oil prices will plummet anytime soon

Hugo Chavez knows full well that he can't spend money he doesn't have, but at the same time, he knows right know he can spend that kind of money improving infrastructure, improving health care, public education, etc. Unless the US leaves Iraq tomorrow and the instability borne from that conflict disappears tomorrow over some of the largest sources of oil in the world, Chavez doesn't have to worry about an oil market crash anytime soon.

The point that is always missed when people talk about Venezuela is that this economy down there is growing as fast as China's economy not simply because Chavez is engaging in social spending but also because of foreign investment in the country. One of the pay-offs in infrastructure spending is that it sets the foundation for foreign investment.

[killbotfactory]

39. Part of the public spending is towards diversifying the economy

Q: What happens when the oil money runs out, what happens when the price of oil falls as it always does? Will the Bolivarian revolution of Hugo Chávez simply collapse because there’s no money to pay for the big free ride?

Chávez: I don’t think it will collapse, in the unlikely case of oil running out today. The revolution will survive. It does not rely solely on oil for its survival. There is a national will, there is a national idea, a national project. However, we are today implementing a strategic program called the Oil Sowing Plan: using oil wealth so Venezuela can become an agricultural country, a tourist destination, an industrialized country with a diversified economy. We are investing billions of dollars in the infrastructure: power generators using thermal energy, a large railway, roads, highways, new towns, new universities, new schools, recuperating land, building tractors, and giving loans to farmers. One day we won’t have any more oil, but that will be in the twenty-second century. Venezuela has oil for another 200 years.

http://www.progressive.org/mag_intv0706

Any country that has a 60% poverty rate isn't going to fix their many problems within a couple years, it's just not going to happen.

[bvar22]

26. I wouldn't trust anything from the IMF on Venezuela.

Through predatory lending practices, the IMF was forcing Argentina to sell National assets (like drinking water) to Global Corporations. Venezuela bought up over $2 Billion dollars of IMF debt in Argentina, and forced the IMF to hit the road.

The IMF is no friend of Chavez.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

34. wikipedia ...

... NOT a very reliable source of info ... just ask Stephen Colbert, world's foremost expert on 'WIKIALITY'


clickity click ~~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmHm0rGns4I

[rman]

36. Venezuela's Economy Expanded 9.4%

Bloomberg
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=aM6UjOxreCwE&refer=latin_america
Dec. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's economy grew 9.4 percent in 2005 as President Hugo Chavez boosted government spending and increased subsidies for the South American country's poor.
Gross domestic product, the broadest measure of a country's production of goods and services, expanded for a ninth quarter in the October-to-December period, Central Bank President Gaston Parra said in a statement, without giving the fourth-quarter figure. Venezuela's economy expanded 17.9 percent in 2004.
Venezuela's economy has been boosted by government expenditures, which rose 38 percent through October. Venezuela's economy contracted 7.7 percent in 2003 and 8.9 percent in 2002.
(more)

[rman]

37. CEPR - Poverty Rates in Venezuela: Getting the Numbers Right

Center for Economic and Policy Research
Poverty Rates in Venezuela: Getting the Numbers Right
http://www.cepr.net/
http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuelan_poverty_rates_2006_05.pdf (PDF)

Introduction

Over the past year, the statement that poverty in Venezuela has increased under the government of President Hugo Chávez has appeared in scores of major newspapers, on major television and radio programs, and even journals such as Foreign Affairs1 and Foreign Policy.2 (See Appendix for a sample of such statements.) These statements have only rarely been contested or corrected.

For example, writing in the May/June 2006 issue of Foreign Affairs, Mexico’s former Foreign Minister Jorge Castañeda stated that “Venezuela’s poverty figures and human development indices have deteriorated since 1999, when Chávez took office.”3 A May 11, 2006 news article in the Financial Times was headlined “Chavez opts for oil-fuelled world tour while progress slows on social issues; Challengers point to failures in housing and poverty ahead of December's elections,”4 and questions whether poverty has been reduced under the Chávez administration.

This paper looks at the available data on poverty in Venezuela, which show a reduction in poverty since 1999, as well as related economic data. The paper also briefly notes how some of the mistakes surrounding the discussion of this issue have been made. Finally, we also look at the impact of the provision of health care to the poor, which has been greatly expanded over the last few years.

<more>

[druidity33]

42. why is it?

People who spout the "He's hurting the economy" line don't consider that his base of support, the people who adore him, are primarily the poor and generally mistreated portion of society. Think they would believe him a National hero and have voted him into office 6 TIMES if things weren't getting better for the poor? He's hurting the ability of the rich elite in Venezuela to amass riches in an equally exponential rate that American rich people accrue their wealth and power. That's the economy he's hurting. He's redistributing current resource revenues to BUILD INFRASTRUCTURE fer chrissakes. We could learn quite a bit from the man and his proposals, despite what some folk think about his personality. I never understood the Bush line about "He's a guy you'd want to have a beer with". I don't give a shit whether the guy's likable or would make a good drinking buddy. My question is can he do the fucking job? Can you talk to him sensibly and trust that he will listen and consider opposing viewpoints. I've known right bastards who are at least honorable in their own way.

Those wiki entries you picked are a load of shite...
:)

Viva Chavez! Viva Venezuela!

[Joe Chi Minh]

47. Snivi Yllom has been very reticent lately, hasn't he?

[druidity33]

49. honestly...

I think M Ivins herself would not approve!

:(

[Flanker]

44. 2002 the second article is vastly outdated

[Jcrowley]

48. Placed in a context

of conquest and colonialism one would be able to make entirely different calculations.

Hard to get the boots strapped on when your boots have been stolen.

[The Straight Story]

13. I think he is killing his chances of late with the chinese though...

And his latest barb at bush probably won't help much.

To read a pretty non-biased paper on what the hell I am yapping about:

www.ndu.edu/inss/symposia/pacific2006/watsonpaper.pdf

China in Latin America: Reasons for greater Chinese interest

Beijing has shown an increase in interest in Latin America although it
remains a region of lesser interest to the People’s Republic of China (PRC)
than East Asia, Europe, North America, Central Asia, or Africa. Latin
America provides some 4% of China’s imports while it receives 3% of
Chinese exports.3 Chinese involvement in Latin America is not, however,
new; it began in the 1960s when Cuba recognized Beijing as the legitimate
government of China instead of Taiwan. After that ideological connection,
nevertheless, Latin America-PRC ties began with Chile’s 1970 and Mexico’s
1971 shifts in recognition from Taipei to Beijing. Over the next fifteen years,
the other major states4 gradually moved from Taiwan to the PRC side
regardless of the type of regime in power in Latin America. The question of
regime type is noteworthy for what it did not signal: Latin American states,
ranging from Argentina’s guerra sucia governments to Augusto Pinochet’s
regime in Chile did not let Beijing’s communist ideology preclude
diplomatic and later financial ties. This reflects the pragmatic nature of the
relationship over a relatively long period of time.

China’s most important strategic interest is and will remain the United
States. Beijing will not cross a line threatening that connection for fear it
would jeopardize the economic growth required to sustain the Chinese
Communist Party’s political monopoly.

From Beijing’s side, however, the ties appear considerably more
dangerous. The current CCP leadership’s objective is to avoid harming its
intricate relationship with the United States, which helps sustain China’s
phenomenal economic growth. Moving overtly and obviously into
Washington’s traditional sphere of influence would risk the relationship with
the United States. Venezuela does offer some petroleum options to China,
particularly the orimulsion projects.

Nevertheless, Venezuela’s petroleum is
not the type that the PRC can easily refine, limiting its use to China and
restraining Venezuela to meeting a mere 1.1% of the Chinese petroleum
needs.7 Caracas has sought to buy arms from China but few actual
transfers have occurred. Chinese-Venezuelan ties are more noise than
actions at this point. And most of the noise originates from President
Chávez Frías’ desire to alienate Washington, rather than from Chinese
aspirations to consolidate power in the region.


(basically, I think his bush is devil only will make matters worse for his country as the US will now have another reason to hint to the chinese not to do more business with him. It just seemed undiplomatic.)

[JNelson6563]

41. The dynamics of China/US relations

We are utterly dependent on their cheap goods. Who do you think Wal-Mart gets most of their cheap plastic crap from?

Additionally, considering that the US government mangages to stay functioning thanks to the regular auction of Treasury notes, and China hold boatloads of 'em, well frankly I don't see the US in much of a position to dictate any kind of terms to China. All they need to do is show up and say "I'd like to cash these Treasury notes in" and it's all over. Say hello to your new Chinese overlords.

Julie

[tblue]

14. Watch this video — You have to see this!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4991354545733857055

Thank you for starting this thread. Chavez is NOT the nutcase or the evildoer the American media and the Bushies have made him out to be. I wish Democrats like Pelosi and Rangel would do their homework before jumping on the me-too bandwagon. It is heartbreaking to hear someone maligned out of ignorance.

-Venezuela has more oil than Saudi Arabia
-Chavez refuses to sell out their oil reserves to Big Oil (won't play ball with Cheney's buddies on their terms)
-Chavez believes his country's oil belongs to the Venezuelan people
-He wants to share his oil generously with the poor people of the world, including in the US
-He offered assistance to the people left stranded after Katrina, but was rebuffed
-Chavez is the first native Indian-descent president of Venezuela, a man literally of the people
-He was kidnapped in a 2002 coup — a coup backed by Bush & US interests and assisted by the US Navy. But the people of Venezuela took to the streets and got their duly elected president back
-He is a deeply religious man, but not a fanatic
-The rest of the world sees him completely differently from how he is portrayed in the US media
-The poor people of Venezuela adore him and have seen substantial gains in income under Chavez's rule

Check out Greg Palast's 'The Best Democracy You Can Buy' — a book you have to read if you want to know what your country's really been up to in Venezuela and elsewhere.

And this http://www.alternet.org/story/39820/

Make sure you watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4991354545733857055

[MelissaB]

25. Heckava video!

Thanks for the link. :hi:

[Annces]

15. You should check out this post too by Peace Patriot on Chavez

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2186378&mesg_id=2187854

""Let me start with Chavez, since that is the most egregious slander. Autocratic regime? Where does he get this from? There is NO EVIDENCE--ZERO! ZILCH!--that Chavez is an "autocrat." And there is voluminous evidence of the exact opposite. He is the VALIDLY ELECTED, very popular president of a THRIVING DEMOCRACY--indeed, a country where the entire corporate news establishment daily vilifies him--and even openly supported the violent military coup attempt against him--and who have suffered NO retaliation by Chavez or his government. They criticize him FREELY--and mercilessly.""

[Sammy Pepys]

17. Ahh...thanks for posting this!

I just started a thread looking for info like this.

[Tin Man]

18. I am soooooooooooooooo beyond Chavez

Sorry, but I don't give a shit about Chavez - he ain't running for office in November.

Focus, people!

[Bjorn Against]

31. There is a whole world out there you know

It is very important we have an international focus.

No one is denying the 2006 elections are important, but we are not the only country in the world and sometimes we need to look outside our borders.

[Kermitt Gribble]

22. Great thread!!

Thanks!!

[malaise]

24. Great post n/t

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rex]

35. You sure won't see them posting in this thread.

Trolls don't like fair fights.

[Cha]

29. Cool Beans..

"Hurting the economy"! That's rich!

Edit~ And from Feb 3, 2006 @ 5:27am!

[Vidar]

33. Great post.

[Judi Lynn]

38. Kicking!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[Scurrilous]

40. K & R

:thumbsup:

[mom cat]

43. Lets see how it works.

[ooglymoogly]

45. happy to pile on and vote this up

the right wing who control our press and government are out to destroy chavez and it is disgusting. ours has become a government for the rich by the rich and of the rich and woe betide anyone who interferes with these hogs at the troff bleeding 'murka' dry. the propaganda machines are now in full gear and the pundits are frothing at the mouth over chavez and their trolls on this site are apoplectic

[Generic Other]

46. Bookmarked

for use in refuting rightwing propaganda. Thanks.

[Nutmegger]

50. Kick for Chavez...

Thank you all for contributing to this thread. :)

:kick:!!!