I have had it with all this Chavez crap...

[walldude]

You know if Bush had made the right moves after 9/11 America could be holding the high moral ground, it could have the power and the allies to press Chavez to release the restrictions on free speech and the courts and truly make Venezuela a real democracy. Instead we have become the worlds biggest hypocrites. All we can do now is use our military might to make a point. How anyone in this country can have the balls to berate any other nation for human rights violations and speech restrictions really ought to look in their own backyard.
Whether Bush is the devil or not, his policies of hate and war go against everything that is righteous in this world.

[Virginia Dare]

1. America has no moral high ground anymore...

all we have are bombs and guns, so I guess that is how we are destined to "lead" the world now, i.e., wield the power and control the resources.

That is the way the neocons wanted it and that's the way it has come to be. We just stood by and let it happen. We'll pay the price eventually.

[ShortnFiery]

3. Generally, I like and approve of the views of both Pelosi and Rangel ...

but their comments yesterday indicates that they are sadly "out of touch" with The American People. Many of us, without lauding Chavez, the person, think his remarks were spot on. Further, since many of us are now considering if 9/11 was an inside job, an evaluation of Dear Leader's persona can NOT be too DARK. With all the drips and rays of truth, if Dear Leader is not "el diablo" LIKE, I'd hate to see anyone who meets such vile criteria, i.e., he's close, real close. :scared:

[Virginia Dare]

5. I like what Craig Crawford said last night on K.O...

Pelosi and Rangel, and others of their ilk still remember what it was like when they had power, and they are still acting like they have some. I don't think they've woken up and smelled the coffee. What's going to be their kick in the ass?

P.S. I generally like them too, but I'm very disappointed in their performance as the loyal opposition party, they consistently let the Republicans make all the rules, and it gets them nowhere. We as Democrats are entirely disenfranchised, and we need to hold our Party leaders accountable for that.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

2. huh?? .................. <oops!>

Sorry, I misread and misinterpreted your point. Long day ... longer week ... maybe a cup of coffee will help.

[walldude]

4. There are restrictions on speech in Venezuela..

the courts are also stacked. If we were so adamant about spreading democracy we could have worked with Chavez instead of having a pissing match.. not too hard to follow here...

[Solon]

8. Wait, are you saying that there is no Democracy in Venezuela...

I mean damn, the Carter Center was fooled how many times? As far as the restrictions on free speech, as far as I can tell, its been ineffective as a law, I mean shit, during protests against Chavez, there have been posters with his picture in the crosshairs, even in the U.S. this is illegal.

[walldude]

9. No I'm saying that there are some restrictions on speech and

some issues with the courts being stacked. Issues that could have easily been worked out if we hadn't thrown our constitution out the window. I'm saying that with a few minor exceptions Venezuela is as free and Democratic as they come. Those exceptions could have easily been handled if we actually a respected leader.

[Solon]

12. To be honest, I don't see how that would have helped...

While in recent years Democratic presidents(only one really), have largely left Latin America alone, we never really had a "High Ground" with them anyways, and haven't for years. Quite a few in Latin America(not Chavez) considered 9/11/2001 to be poetic justice, because it reminded them of 9/11/1973(look it up).

Now, as for the issues with the Venezuelan government, well, there are some problems, the stacking of the courts is worrisome, but its one of those "wait and see" type of things. As far as the restrictions on speech, yes the passed the disrespect law, however, they have yet to actually enforce it to the fullest extent able. Also, bear in mind that Chavez vetoed the law, saying the penalties were WAY too high, and it was watered down as a response.

Having said that, Venezuela probably is the only country in the world where you can say, on TV, that the President SHOULD BE KILLED, and not get thrown in jail for it.

[sandnsea]

6. Venezuela is not Iran

To the best of my knowledge it isn't even Cuba. Chavez has done some questionable things, but it isn't a dictatorship at this point in time. He certainly isn't any worse than Musharaff or a whole host of ME kings and whatnot who stone people to death for sex 'crimes'. Which isn't to say he isn't as loony as Bush and doesn't have the potential for dictatorship. I mean, if it's stupid for Bush to call people "evildoers", then it's stupid for Chavez to go down that path too.

[walldude]

10. That's my point, any problems with Chavez could have been

worked out if we had held the high ground.

[sandnsea]

13. Sure, but we can't hyperbolate either

I am absolutely NO FAN of Chavez as anybody here can attest to. At the same time, I also believe the best way to prevent dictatorships is with cultural exchange, commerce, and lots and lots of interaction. You can't get that with name calling or hyperventilating every time something goes off course in another country. You have to stay engaged and try to help the country steer back towards the middle. I saw your OP as not particularly beneficial in that regard and that's all I was commenting on.

And yeah, if we had any moral high ground left, that would sure be helpful. With this right wing philosophy, we are headed into an ugly ugly kind of world. Like Florida and Texas en masse - and that just makes me shudder.

[mmonk]

7. America stands naked before the world.

That is where we are now. This impacts us on so many levels we won't know the full extent until we go further down the road. This all has been a tragedy when the future could have held promise. Terrorism won because Americans forgot what they aspire to be.

[lonestarnot]

11. Bushitler is the devil.

[Missy M]

14. My daughter lived in Venezuela for 17 years......

and some of them with Chavez in power. She had free speech and all the same freedoms we have here. I don't understand why you would say there are restrictions on free speech. The propaganda in this country regarding Venezuela is ridiculous and it is coming from the Neocon's and the Bush White House.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. 90% of people talking about Venezuela, on one side or the other

DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT VENEZUELA. Period.

So, you can take their blah blah blah with a big grain of salt. They're literally talking out of their asses, pro- and anti-Chavez together.

They've never been to Venezuela, they don't know any Venezuelans, they don't know the history, culture, governmental structure, geography demographics, economics, nothing. Nada. Hell, I'll bet a few of them don't even know what language is spoken in Venezuela.

But the ignorant often end up with the bullhorn, as we've been reminded in recent years, and as we're reminded on this board damn near every day.

[stepnw1f]

15. Bullshit about No Freedom of Speech

You antiChavez people make me sick... get lost. If you have to make shit up, don't say anything at all.