Where are the Americans who could do these jobs?

[BurtWorm]

Toni Scully, whose family owns a pear-packing company in Northern California, could not sell tons of fruit that had been picked too late for markets.



How did the US get into such a jam that its economy relies so greatly on the work of illegal workers? Are there not enough Americans to be able to do the work that has been left undone because of the clampdown at the border in the last year?



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/washington/22growers.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print


Stepped-up border enforcement kept many illegal Mexican migrant workers out of California this year, farmers and labor contractors said, putting new strains on the state’s shrinking seasonal farm labor force.

Labor shortages have also been reported by apple growers in Washington and upstate New York. Growers have gone from frustrated to furious with Congress, which has all but given up on passing legislation this year to create an agricultural guest-worker program.

Last week, 300 growers representing every major agricultural state rallied on the front lawn of the Capitol carrying baskets of fruit to express their ire.

This year’s shortages are compounding a flight from the fields by Mexican workers already in the United States. As it has become harder to get into this country, many illegal immigrants have been reluctant to return to Mexico in the off-season. Remaining here year-round, they have gravitated toward more stable jobs.

“When you’re having to pay housing costs, it’s very difficult to survive and wait for the next agricultural season to come around,” said Jack King, head of national affairs for the California Farm Bureau Federation.

California farms employ at least 450,000 people at the peak of the harvest, with farm workers progressing from one crop to the next, stringing together as much as seven months of work. Growers estimate the state fell short this harvest season by 70,000 workers. Joe Bautista, a labor contractor from Stockton who brings crews to Lake County, said about one-third of his regular workers stayed home in Mexico this year, while others were caught by the Border Patrol trying to enter the United States.

[Bluebear]

1. Oh, an EXCELLENT thread title. nt

[bahrbearian]

65. Pear and Apple picking is hard work but,, it has its rewards

in high school and after ,,we used to pick and thin fruit,, got our own cabins,, near the river,,made our money,,,outside,,much more.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Young Republicans surely will step up and lend a hand

Typical right wing logic. Lets get rid of people who pick the products which end up on our table and clean up the motel rooms we use. And then in an orgy of patriotism deny that Americans won't do those jobs. Then lets go out and torture people because republicans with penis issues need to feel good about themselves. And then lets turn on any republican politician on TV or radio and enjoy being lied to. Sad, pathetic human beings who are slowly destroying our country.

[BurtWorm]

4. Just as they have with the war in Iraq.

:patriot:

[matcom]

3. better yet, WHERE are the DUers who blasted ME when I said this would happ

happen!

:eyes:

[Sequoia]

10. Really?!!!

To me this was a no-brainer; I didn't see your post. Who do people think does the harvest work?

[matcom]

12. they thought the 'Corporation' would increase their wages

and pay 'Muricans what they are worth :eyes:

notice 'Corporation' is in quotes

[Sequoia]

30. Living under a rock no doubt.

Now we have the grape harvest to worry about. No wine for anyone.

[elehhhhna]

60. Hey! McCain said those jobs pay $50.00 per hour. Wha'happened?

[datasuspect]

59. they're at freeperland

and haven't noticed this post yet.

[datasuspect]

5. i guess they don't want to get paid sub-minimum wage

for what is essentially piece-work.

IT IS ALL ABOUT RACISM. the apologists and idiots can go stick it.

[Matariki]

6. I picked apple once - I made NOTHING for a day's work

The pay was piece-work, not hourly. You had to fill a 4x4x4 box with apples to get $8. I didn't even fill the box by the end of the day. A partially full box pays nada.

edited for spelling

[BurtWorm]

9. You'd think the invisible hand of the market would have driven pickers'

wages up this year, now that those who have been willing to work for $8 a day aren't willing any longer or aren't making it through the border. I wonder if the invisible hand will be a little more insistent if this continues next year.

[Sequoia]

7. Now the vinters are worried about the grape harvest.

It's a serious business. The 4H Clubs around here said that if they'd had been made aware of the situation with with pears they would've called on the children and adults to help out.

[wakeme2008]

8. I wonder how much she was paying for fruit pickers

and if she paid a wage American would work for how much she would have made over losing $$$$$

[Phx_Dem]

11. Maybe the growers should consider industry wide wage reforms

you know like any other business that has difficulty hiring and retaining employees.

[Cerridwen]

13. What *are* the odds?

Over the years, occasional programs to draw American workers to the harvests have failed. "Americans do not raise their children to be farm workers," Ms. Hallstrom said.

apparently, when there are better paying, less physically strenuous and more stable jobs, neither do Mexicans.

For years, economists say, California farmers have been losing their pickers to less strenuous, more stable and sometimes higher-paying jobs in construction, landscaping and tourism. (anybody care to debate the "less strenuous" nature of construction and landscaping?)

Funny that. Seems parents raise their children to want a good wage job which is stable and doesn't (literally?) break your back. And wow, doesn't matter if you're an American or a Mexican parent. What are the odds?

[acmejack]

44. When's th elast time U saw a caucasian Landscaper or construction worker?

Been a long time around here, bet it has been around Lake County too! Ms. Hallstrom makes smoke, methinks...

[Cerridwen]

51. I'm in AZ and originally from NV.

The only caucasians I've seen, for many a year, in landscaping have been the designers. I do know lots in construction from the days when it paid $27 and up per hour. They're the owners and "bosses" now. The laborers at $9 and $10 per hour, just have "really good tans". /snark

*sigh*

[Nikia]

56. In Wisconsin there are a lot of them

Especially in the summer.

[central scrutinizer]

52. great post

you nailed it.

[Cerridwen]

55. Thanks.

I'm getting damned tired of people speaking of non-American peoples as though they are "barbarians" or are less than human or are willing to settle for "the Great America's" hand-me-downs.

[notadmblnd]

14. she'd be overwelmed with help if only growers were willing to pay

decent wages. let her cry :nopity:

[matcom]

15. enjoy your $5/pound produce

and $40/bottle Fetzer

[LSK]

16. meanwhile families in Mexico starve...

Because we protected the "invisible" American worker.

[matcom]

20. 100% correct

lose lose.

[notadmblnd]

23. I don't know what Fetzer is and I grow my own produce

Oh and I pick it myself too. I guess what bothers me is the number of people that are willing to allow the exploitation of these people so they can enjoy their pears at .99 cents a pound.

[matcom]

25. it's a Vineyard

typically sells for about $9/bottle

and so glad you are lucky enough to live in a place where you can sustain yourself with carrots

*whew* one less DUer for me to stay awake at night and wonder if they have enough to eat

[notadmblnd]

26. there's a few you won't have to worry about.

I share.

[matcom]

27. maybe you could start your OWN farm

so you can "share" with some starving Mexican families!

[progressoid]

36. Unfortunately, growing your own isn't feasible for the entire nation

And you eat only what you grow? Never shop at a grocery store? Never eat out? Never buy a piece of food that wasn't self-produced?

It's a bit naive to believe that you don't benefit from their work.

[Greyhound]

64. As has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions in the past

this is a reich-wing lie, that has been told and re-told for 25 years or more.

Why do you insist on helping the Re:puke:s every time this issue is raised?

[snappyturtle]

17. Could it be that the illegal workers who used to pick

produce have moved on to more lucrative jobs in the U.S.? Just asking.

Maybe it's time Americans started paying more for food.....again just my humble opinion.

[LSK]

19. is this a problem elsewhere? was it a problem in the past?

Who picked fruit 50 years ago? Who picked fruit 100 years ago?

Who picks fruit in S America? Who picks fruit in Europe???

Why is America facing this "problem"?

Is anyone doing a study on the costs of paying fruit pickers a decent wage vs the costs of fruit at the grocery store???

[BurtWorm]

24. That's what the article suggested.

Mexican workers who can't move back and forth between the countries and who are now in the States have moved away from jobs like these because they need higher wages to live on. (And probably don't want to be sitting ducks out in the fields for suddenly more vigilant INS agents.)

[Deja Q]

34. Maybe it's time our corporations hire for liveable wages to

people who live here to pay the prices the same folks charge for.

Hell, for $3/day I'd be happy to pick a peck of peppers; but the cost of living can't even begin to be met. For that reason, Americans will not work the job. Especially with families to feed and big bills to pay and things to learn, there is no time, money, or energy. Not at the cost of energy, food, and tuition.

Illegal aliens also wilfully make themselves slaves. They don't realize it given the conditions of their home country, but I have nothing to do with those countries or who runs them.

Also, other countries aren't so easy and nice about letting anyone in to do work. Why should the US be any different? Those countries have their own problems.

[progressisvirtue]

18. THIS is why we need open door immigration

since when is america an exclusionary country? anyone who wants to be a citizen should be able to be one. period. there is NO agrument against this besides nativism and racism.

[LSK]

21. welcome to DU!

I agree with what you say.

[progressisvirtue]

22. thanks!

glad to be here, and im glad you agree, lol

[pampango]

63. Open borders is an intriguing idea.

Would mutual open borders with Mexico be acceptable to Mexico? Mightn't they be afraid of too much immigration, if moving from Mexico to the US was no more difficult than moving from California to Oregon?

I think it would be a great thing for the poor of Mexico, but I think it would lower wage levels for unskilled labor here. “I would have raised my wages,” said Steve Winant, a pear grower whose 14-acre orchard is still laden with overripe fruit. “But there weren’t any people to pay.” Next year this guy may raise his wages from the start, but not if there is an influx of labor from elsewhere.

There would still be a net positive contribution to the US economy by opening the border, but it would have some cost to it (low-skill pay levels reduced.) It is a trade off I would find attractive, but I am not a low-skill worker.

I lived in the Philippines for four years, am married to a Filipina, and know many Filipino immigrants (legal and otherwise.) They are almost all hard working people who make a tremendous contribution to our society. I know enough about the law of supply and demand to know that it applies even when I find its consequences inconvenient.

[matcom]

28. This article is BULLSHIT!

Lou Dobbs doesn't even LIKE Pears!

this is a non-story

[LSK]

29. yeah but the woman in the picture cant afford a new BMW now

Its TRAGIC!!!

[Thickasabrick]

31. As I said in the other thread on this article, these growers are

solid republican. Fuck them. They deserve what they get. That is also going to be my attitude after November if republicans aren't thrown own - I will refuse to give a fuck about anything economically that goes wrong with anyone who votes republican.

[matcom]

33. your compassion for the starving Mexican families is heartwarming

[Deja Q]

38. I wonder how much he's personally contributed.

[Thickasabrick]

39. I'm not talking about the mexicans - I'm talking about the fucking

growers.

[matcom]

43. you fuck the grower

you fuck the worker, you fuck the family, you fuck the shipping industry, you fuck the grocer, you fuck the consumer.

in case you don't get it yet.....

you're fucked

[Thickasabrick]

46. In case you don't get it - this situation is a direct result of the

republicans ignoring the issue. It's Reagan's trickle down theory of republicans screwing up everything they touch.

[Deja Q]

48. Everyone gets fucked in the end. To make a long story short,

our society is symbiotic - whether it wants it to be, or not.

[girl gone mad]

61. Who's starving?

If you read the article, she did find pickers, but not until too late. What took so long? My guess is that she delayed increasing wages as an incentive for as long as she thought she could. Bad gamble. Am I supposed to feel sorry for her?

There are millions of starving people on this planet. Should we send our business leaders around the world to exploit them? Isn't your argument the same type of justification used in the slave trade?

[acmejack]

32. That article claims they couldn't get pickers for $150 a day?

I call bullshit! With all the unemployed people here they would jump through their asses if they knew of an opportunity to make a $150 bucks a day.

[Deja Q]

35. $150 day? That's $18.75/hr. I'd HAPPILY TAKE THAT JOB.

Who the fuck wouldn't??!!

[progressoid]

53. Yeah, right. I have a cousin that tried seasonal harvesting.

He gave it up to make sandwiches at Subway. More secure. Less dangerous. Health insurance.

I suggest you HAPPILY TRY IT before you make such bold statements. And not just for a couple days. Try to make a life out of it.

Of course we would have a hard time getting updates from you since most orchards don't provide wireless internet connections during coffee breaks (or coffee breaks for that matter).

[LSK]

37. thats $39000/yr

Assuming you worked 5 days a week for 52 weeks a year. I dont think theres 52 weeks worth of fruit to be picked. And what are real estate prices in that part of the country?

[Deja Q]

40. Real estate is a different situation;

though I see your point - back to cost of living differential.

Still, the real estate problem is a different monster - one that's about to be self-correcting, finally...

[Thickasabrick]

42. The article said the season would be around 7months. I doubt

very seriously they would get that rate for the whole season.

[MadHound]

47. Yes, but as a part time, seasonable job for college students?

Or the indigent and homeless? I'm sure that there would be plenty of people from those categories alone who would jump at those wages. Hell, I would, just for the extra money if I lived in the area. That's why I have to call bullshit on such a wage claim.

[acmejack]

49. Pickers generally live in a camper.

Migrants or at least they did in the old days, I haven't known anybody that did that for years. I have some friends who were in the business when they were kids.

[BurtWorm]

41. IS that what they usually pay just one worker?

Or do all of their workers have to split it?

[Boomer]

45. What is food really worth?

There's an interesting chain of scenarios here:

The low cost of living in Mexico means the poor can live on small amounts of money, garnered from seasonal work in the States. But once those poor seasonal workers stay in the U.S. full-time, the cost of living goes up substantially and they can't afford to work for low seasonal wages anymore.

So regardless of country of origin or citizen status, no worker can afford to live in the U.S. on the current pay scale that farms are willing and/or able to pay their workers. To provide a sufficient salary to compensate a worker for partial employment, the price of food would need to be raised substantially.

That is the TRUE cost of food, folks.

And the fact that so many agricultural crops are rotting rather than fetching the extremely high prices they cost to produce means that we are overproducing.

[spoony]

62. Great point, that really is the issue

"So regardless of country of origin or citizen status, no worker can afford to live in the U.S. on the current pay scale that farms are willing and/or able to pay their workers."

But, is is the willing or the able? I guess it depends on who you ask.

[ryanus]

50. Labor vs. Machinery

This is an easy economic concept. If it is cheaper for you as a business owner to hire people to do manual labor rather than buying a machine to do it, you will hire the manual labor.

Go to some poorer countries and note how they dig ditches or build buildings. There are more people involved in manual labor than there are in richer countries because the richer countries use more machinery.

Many farmers in the US use immigrant labor so of course if there is a labor shortage those farmers would face some difficulty operating.

And this notion that Americans "won't" do it is false. I cleaned toilets at 4am. I didn't like it, and I tried really hard to do something else. Americans don't want to work in the fields, especially if there are better opportunities. So what ends up happening is that those who have no better opportunity will work in the fields. It's not that others "won't", but they wouldn't if there was something better.

When there is a long term labor shortage, people come up with machinery or automation to deal with it. If there is a long term immigrant labor shortage, you can count on sales of farm machinery to go up. So getting into the farm machinery business may not be too bad in that event.

[DaveJ]

54. America is addicted to oil and slaves...

Regarding the latter, I think many intelligent people fear that if we needed slaves to build this country up, we must still need them today in the form of insourcing cheap immigrant labor. I say, let go of the past. Move forward and let the market decide how much produce will cost given a fair wage (or high tech machinery to do the job).

Maybe it won't cost as much as people think to pay people good wages, or build machinery to do the job, and besides, the higher paid producer pickers would then make a more positive economic contribution.

[AzDar]

57. Why is she standing around..pick the effin' fruit, Lady. Perhaps she

is slowly coming around to the realization that she WILL HAVE TO PAY A DECENT WAGE to get her back-breaking labor done.
Why is the argument always 'if they pay workers a living wage, why, you won't be able to afford your lettuce or your white Zin'?
Although I would gladly pay a few dollars more, if it meant workers would be decently compensated, I think the REAL answer here lies in this nice lady understanding that it's not all about either the workers or the consumer taking a hit, but HER weepy ass and it's 'bottom-line' that needs some adjustment.

[Nikia]

58. Aren't there temporary agriculuturual visas?

Maybe growers like one should investigate this option.