I still can't believe that so many Americans are cool with torture now.

[Philosoraptor]

I hear them calling into cspan, and I have come to the conclusion that the Twilight Zone is real, and we're all in it now. Torture apologists, explaining away the guilt of it, justifying the use of it and discussing it over tea and crumpets and beer and hot dogs, torture as a point of debate and water cooler talk.

Torture in our every day conversation, torture whispered about in marble halls and restaurants, the Twilight Zone is real I tell ya'.

I look at my neighbors differently now, I hear Rod Serling's voice in the background, would they torture me if they could? Could my son get drafted and be tortured by the enemy? Will he too become a torturer?

My tax dollars are torturing people and it hurts to admit it. America is now softening the laws against torture, torture of all things, Katie Couric is talking about it, the president is begging for it, little old ladies call into cspan and talk about being Christians and justifying torturing people in the same sentence.

Its surreal. Its frightening and unbelievable. Its weighing on my mind, this acceptance of torture, acceptance of war for no damned reason, acceptance of fascism and totalitarianism and global domination and---cue the Twilight Zone music...

[treestar]

1. Makes me want to throttle people

It is so frustrating how stupid people are these days.

[rfranklin]

2. It's simple--if their protectors (the Bush junta) are scarier and...

meaner than the "terra-ists" they feel more secure in this big scary world. They feel that they can stand behind their "daddy" and no Islamo-fascists will be able to touch them. This, of course, is a fantasy and the Bush junta would give them up in a second to make another billion.

[TAPat]

3. You know, it does seem that way

TZ and all... but, we've taken to watching Twighlight Zone reruns on Sci-Fi almost every morning and are reminded that Sir Rod's lessons are very clear.

Too bad the real life *lessons* are seemingly not all that clear to the majority of folks in this country :(

[Peace Patriot]

4. You describe it well--this whisper that the war profiteering corporate

news monopolies plant in your head (if you permit yourself too much exposure to them), that other Americans have gone crazy and fascist in large numbers, and that THEY are the majority.

It isn't true.

[izzie]

5. I am not so shocked. The weak are often treated like this

Not so long ago it was fine for a husband to beat his wife and even in my life I can re-call police telling women that they must get out side their home before they could do anything as a man could do as he wished in his own home. Men made the laws and could do as they wished. If it was so common that any man could do it why would you think that it was not a thing people are willing to do or have others do? May be beating some one 100 pounds less than you is not torture? I would not even like to think what we did to children in forced labor. Or black people. For some reason hurting others seems to always get a free ride and is justified in some ones mind. Some time for the fun of it look up the studies colleges did on just what people will do to each other if some one in power tells them to do it. There are always some that will not do what they think is wrong but BUT that is the smallest percent of the groups they studied. They are the rare ones.

[datasuspect]

6. the only thing new about any of this

is that it is now the law.

we've always had torture in this country. they just weren't so "in your face" about it.

they at least had the decency to try and conceal it.

[acmejack]

7. As long as they are not the toturees.

Americans are a bunch of balless wimps nowadays. We talk tough and that is the extent of it. We are officially a Nation of punks, the world knows it and we should be ashamed. Maybe Toby Kieth can write a stirring Country song about torturing folks that will fire up the folks before the election and make them all real proud to be Mericans.

All I can do is hang my head in shame, I will never fly an American flag again, I will never proudly admit to being from this Country. How did we come to this?

[Atman]

8. CNN also hinted at another "reason"

Depending upon how firmly in control you believe OPEC is...in covering the Chavez story, they pointed out that the only reason Chavez can get away with the devil rhetoric is because he is sitting on a sea of very expensive oil, but that if the price of oil plummeted back to "normal" level, it would effectively cut his nads off. Interesting.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

9. I feel just like you. We live in a degraded society

I also keep wondering where the turning point in our national ethos was. I'm thinking Reagan and "Greed is Good." When you get to that point, then it's a bullet train to "ends justifying the means." The Reagan era is also when we turned a blind eye to AIDS and had people opining that some people "deserved" to die of a horrible disease. I also think the resurgance of Christian fundamentalism seemed ironically to lead to a rejection of some of the core teachings of Jesus and Christianity - summarized so beautifully recently by many when they ask "Who would Jesus torture?". Also, I think the amazing, graphic, violence that is a part of video games and movies has led to a de-sensitizing - hey, it's entertainment, right?

I guess we don't have to ponder so much about how so much could have gone so bad in Nazi Germany with the German populace, since we have exactly the same phenomena going on here right now. I wonder sometimes about Ann Frank's enormous faith when she said, "and after all, I still believe people are basically good" in the face of all that happened to her and her family. The same for Nelson Mandela.

What we need at this time is a true leader to rise up and lead us away from the abyss. Not a politician, but a LEADER. History calls, the nation calls, - who will it be?

[C_U_L8R]

10. there are even more disturbing things in this "agreement"

THIS IS AMERICA ???? If this is what republicans want... they can fuck off and die

-- Notes the president has the authority to interpret "the meaning and application" of the Geneva Conventions.
-- Allows hearsay evidence.
-- Bars individuals from protesting violations of Geneva Conventions standards in court.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/21/terror.bill/index.html

[marmar]

11. Makes you wonder about that ballyhooed "inherent goodness of Americans"...

Well, quite a few of us are genuinely good and don't like this. Others just don't give a damn because it doesn't affect them directly. Some are sick SOBs who probably think it's a great thing.

[maine_raptor]

12. It's an old siren song.

"The Ends justify the Means".

As seen in everyday life:

A Baseball team owner pays out exorbitant salaries to mediocre players in order to win a pennant. So what if the fans now have to shell out more bucks to watch a game; we're going to win this year.

Corporate fat cats use creative accounting to crate a fake profit. So what if it might be shady, the stockholders will be happy.

There's an empty handicapped parking spot near the grocery store. Hey, it's raining and I'll only be a moment and my kids need fresh milk.

The list could go on, but the point is that the "ethics be dammed" mentality has become the "New Normal".

Sad, ain't it?

And sad too, that the Principals that made America, human dignity and respect, are now being cast aside because of unreasonable fear of an overblown boogieman.

I suspect that somewhere Rod Serling is just watching all of this, smoking a cigarette, and sadly shaking is head in disbelief.

[Zorra]

13. It's horrifying. My only hope is that they are under some type of

diabolical fascist mind control and can't help themselves.

The thought of half the people around me being that genuinely sick in the head is truly frightening.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Torture is a method embraced by weak, frightened people.

It's not needed to gain information; everybody knows it's not effective for that. The reason the righties are so insistent on torturing prisoners in this conflict is that it makes them feel powerful and strong. A few years ago 19 guys armed only with box cutters kicked us in the nuts, and there are a lot of people who aren't satisfied with a careful, intelligent, effective response that would merely capture the terrorists and neutralize the threat. They are scared (many thanks to Bush's Terra 'Lerts for that) and they want revenge. They want to degrade and humiliate the "enemy". Makes 'em feel tough and manly.

It's ironic, too, that liberals are so often accused of being moral relativists. Yet this is such a start example of an "end justifying the means" argument. Torture is bad, they say, but we need to do it to Save 'Merka. We say torture is evil and immoral; they say it's OK under these circumstances. Who's the moral relativist now? Whose situational ethics are these?

[Philosoraptor]

16. when more of our soldiers are tortured, the tune will change

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. I'm afraid it won't.

When more of our soldiers are tortured, BushCo will just want to do more and worse torturing in revenge.

[Philosoraptor]

15. kik

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. If these sickos were the ones being subjected to torture, I doubt they'd

be so hot for it. They're just stupid enough to believe it could never happened to them. These are the same people who love war, so long as they aren't the ones on the front line, getting their butts shot off. Sick sadistic bastards and ** is #1.