If the Dems don't fight this torture shit with everything they've got ...

[BattyDem]

then why should we even bother to vote in November? What's the point? Our country doesn't stand for the things that we believe in and our laws don't mean a fucking thing to the pResident or anyone else in the GOP-controlled government! It's getting worse everyday and we can't do a thing about it. Bush will be free to torture and lock up ANYONE he damn well pleases for ANY reason - all he has to do is label them an "enemy combatant" and their Constitutional rights become null and void. So now we have to rely on the Supreme Court to save us? Alito and Scalia?? Don't hold your breath! Besides, even if ... IF ... they were to do the right thing, it wouldn't matter. They've already said tribunals were illegal - and it hasn't made a fucking difference - BushCo simply ignored the ruling!

Like many of you, I don't have the means to leave the country, so we're all screwed! What will we do? We don't have a voice and we don't have representation. Our laws mean nothing and our votes don't count. America is a dictatorship ... period! And the worst part about it is that so many Americans are cheering that fact and have no problem with Bush having unlimited power.

What the fuck happened to my country? :cry:

[DaveinMD]

1. yes

Let's blame the Democrats for things the Republican do. The Dems have no power right now. If we win the next election, then we'll have some power. Its that simple.

[Skidmore]

3. Well, at least until the election, they could pretend like they have

some principles and stand up for what they believe in.

[leftchick]

16. why pretend anymore

they are as compromised as the "opposition". It is very clear now.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. "We don't have any power"--to hell with that excuse

So they don't have any power.

Why can't they at least take a fucking STAND AGAINST TORTURE? Make a statement? Differentiate themselves from the Republicans? Show the world that not all Americans are bloodthirsty sadists?

"We don't have any power," they whine. Meanwhile, Bush gets everything he wants, and the less informed American people think it must be okay because not even the Democrats are opposed.

[DaveinMD]

8. they've been speaking out

against the President's policy. They have no levers of power. What do you expect them to do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. Don't give the Bushboy ANYTHING he wants, ever again

The time for playing nice passed some time in about 2002 or so.

And they shouldn't just speak out where nobody can hear them. They need to go to their constituents and speak out in every venue they have access to.

[BattyDem]

11. Filibuster! Shut down the government if they have to!

This isn't an issue of "bad policy" or a difference of opinion ... this is the end of everything our country has stood for since it was founded! The choice is simple: will America be a civilized democracy or a brutal dictatorship?

This is it. This is the last stand. If we lose this one, it's over.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me what happens after Bush gets his way on this one. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

[DaveinMD]

15. We win the house and senate

and change the law. We have leverage to get policies changed. That's what happens next.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. By shutting up and going along?

I think not.

Look how well it worked last time. :sarcasm:

[DaveinMD]

23. who said anything about shutting up

I just said our speaking out isn't going to stop the policy from being enacted for the time being.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. No, but you still go on record as opposing evil

That's the only moral stance. If evil is stronger, you don't just say, "Oh, well, might as well go along with it." You oppose it. You let the world know that you oppose it.

[DaveinMD]

25. agreed

and I'm sure that will happen. Good night.

[mmonk]

19. I agree. There is such a thing as a filibuster.

Shut things down or walk out if they have to. If the republicans want to destroy our system, don't pave the road for them. Sometimes, I wonder if they are really against this world domination madness or police state society. I just don't know anymore. I know SOME are but how many?

[leftchick]

17. who has been speaking out against torture?

can you name one? One? They are letting the repukes duke it out which translates to: bush getting whatever the fuck he wants!

:puke:

[sendero]

20. There is a LOT..

... they can do. They can vote as a unified block, they can filibuster. There will DEFINITELY be a handful of Republicans who can be swayed to offer some help.

Seriously, if this isn't enough to get Dems in congress off of their asses, I'm done with Dems, period.

[stepnw1f]

6. If the Dems Don't Fight, That IS THEIR FAULT

of no action (no leadership). The GOP has nothing to do with what the OP is saying.

[BattyDem]

7. I'll blame the Dems if they don't fight it

They have rolled over a COUNTLESS number of times during the last 5 years and it's gotten us nowhere. They constantly try to play nice and reach a compromise - yet Bush always ends up with everything he wants.

If we win the next election?? I want to believe we have a chance, but the fact is BushCo can't afford to lose power now because they'll all go to jail. The last three elections have been stolen - how will this one be different?

I'm sorry for being so negative. I try to hang on to hope ... but it's becoming almost impossible.

[tuvor]

31. BattyDem's only blaming the Democrats for things Democrats refuse to do.

Why are you giving them a pass?

[ThomWV]

2. I Called Both My Senator's Offices Today - I Begged

Stop Him! Please. Stop Him!

[pat_k]

32. Need to ask "Why isn't the Sen. fighting the War Criminals Protection Act"

. . . and persist until you get some answers. Ask to speak to the appropriate legislative assistant. Send a fax requesting a meeting (or call) to find out, and discuss, the Senator's reasons for inaction.

And when you get an answer, challenge it. Ask more questions. (What do you believe you can accomplish under an Executive that rules by signing statement? How do you imagine you can begin to repair the international bridges burned as long as you leave the massive power of the American Presidency in the hands of a war criminal? What do you think you accomplish when you fail to follow up your complaints with meaningful action?)

They are trapped in some bizzarro world of denial and rationalization. Our demands/requests are sliding off their system of screwed up beliefs like water off a duck's back.

More of us need to try to engage these people in a dialog -- some back and forth in which we can challenge chip away at their denial.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. I feel the same way

Opposing torture should be a no-brainer.

Too many Dems are chickening out again, just as they did on the Iraq War Resolution.

I bet their campaign consultants are telling them that a vote against torture will make them look "soft on terrorism" in an election year.

When will these politicians start caring more about what's right than about their stupid careers?

:grr:

[opihimoimoi]

10. Them DEMs gonna lose a lotta peeps if they don get on board

with at least some sort of collective statement...

Where the Hell is Howard??? Get his ass to round up the top guns to make a LOUD NOISE against TORTURE.

Come, we go find the ways to get heard....

[Individualist]

21. Whatever happened to integrity?

So little exists in Washington anymore that it's become microscopic.

[LillyPad]

12. Horrible, just horrible...n/t

[tnlefty]

13. Welcome. LillyPad!

Good to see you. :hi:

[BeFree]

18. Yeah, welcome to the nightmare

Now I don't know that much, but from what I heard, it seems like so far there is just an agreememnt between bush and McClain to do something, and at this point the dems were not included because they have been pretty united against torture. In other words, no law yet.

So today's agreement, methinks, is just an agreement amongst the pubs that will get this matter off the airwaves. Seems they agreed to hash it out on the Federal Register, or FR, and we all get to comment on the program.

I look forward to the pubs spelling out, for all to see, just what kind of torture they want to make legal. Because, if I heard correctly, that's what will happen when they publish their torture schemes in the FR.

Ever read any of the FR?

[Broken_Hero]

34. Welcome to DU...:)

:hi:

[tnlefty]

14. Go out and vote!

I agree with most of your post, but go vote and take someone(s) with you. At least you can take a stand (somewhat) with your vote. Get as many people out to vote as you can and try to get past the turning point percentage of Diebold and other devious devices.

Participate in a "World Can't Wait" rally in your community on Oct. 5th! Visibility and letter writing may help those who are cheering now begin to understand the ramifications of what is actually happening.

Oh, and your country and mine have been taken over by rwing radicals who use fear to get your relatives, community members, etc. to play along. Be clear about the rational reasons that they shouldn't be playing along. Yes, we're screwed, but we have to make some noise at the street level and at the ballot box (black box, aaarrgh) to even attempt to change.

[LaPera]

26. Truly disgusting, Bush's NOR McCain's bills allows for habeas corpus

Something that's been recognized around the world as a basic human right for over 500 years...Can you fucking believe this sick tyrants hatred of basic human dignity &the rights of the accused? Anyone can point the finger for money, bounty, and they have and say that person is a threat and the person collects the bucks and a possibly innocent person will have absolutely no, zero rights...not even the most basic one every human being should be owed.

"Known as the "Great Writ", the writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is a legal proceeding in which an individual held in custody can challenge the propriety of that custody under the law. The prisoner, or some other person on his behalf (for example, where the prisoner is being held incommunicado), may petition the court or an individual judge for a writ of habeas corpus.

Although the form of the writ of habeas corpus implies that the prisoner is brought to the court in order for the legality of the imprisonment to be examined, modern practice is to have a hearing with both parties present on whether the writ should issue, rather than issuing the writ immediately and waiting for the return of the writ by the addressee before the legality of the detention is examined. The prisoner can then be released or *bailed* by order of the court without having to be produced before it.

The right of habeas corpus—or rather, the right to petition for the writ—has long been celebrated as the most efficient safeguard of the liberty of the subject. Dicey wrote that the Habeas Corpus Acts "declare no principle and define no rights, but they are for practical purposes worth a hundred constitutional articles guaranteeing individual liberty". In most countries, however, the procedure of habeas corpus can be suspended in time of national emergency. In most civil law jurisdictions, comparable provisions exist, but they are generally not called "habeas corpus"

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. Here's what we need to do:

We need to find what states allow taping in public places, then we need to tail these sons of bitches and tape their conversations. All legal, mind you. They are so corrupt and insensitive that it won't be long before they feed us tidbbits. THEN we put our non-docudramas in 30 second commercials, so people can see who they're really voting for.

[doctor_garth]

28. what makes you think

it would be any different now?

Dems didn't fight in anything, for instance they've rolled over and played dead in the nominations of all Supreme Court Hitler sympathizers so far and name ONE VOTE that Dems showed any kind of SPINE whatsoever. They will cave this time too.

And don't give me this bullshit about Dems not having power, they can still filibuster, they can still make a lot of noise. They won't do either.

[pat_k]

29. It all goes back to their insane silence on Impeachment. . .

. . . The ONLY way to fight war criminals is to tell the truth about them.

They are trying to pass the "War Criminals Protection Act of 2006," pure and simple. The bill has NO other purpose than to gut U.S Code of any avenue through with the war criminals in the White House could be prosecuted.

If the Dems tell the truth, they must Impeach.

They are silenced and trapped in denial and delusion, holding on to the screwed up belief that they have to deny any intention to Impeach. ("We need to focus on a positive agenda")

As long as they continue to say "Don't worry, we have no intention of Impeaching the man," they are silenced on ALL the crimes being committed by the Bush syndicate.

We MUST challenge them! Shame them. They sound like mealy-mounthed morons when they deny and tip toe around impeachment.

It is UTTERLY Mystifying. More of us need to have conversations with these people, or with members of their staffs, to find out what in heavens name they could be thinking.

What "positive agenda" do they think they can accomplish when the White House is occupied by a man that rules by signing statement? Winning the House or Senate is meaningless when the laws passed aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Impeachment IS Our Positive Agenda -- it is the only way we can redemm our national soul.

What are they afraid of? That the right will get riled because the Dems will impeach?

The right already IS riled because they believe the Dems will impeach -- they just think Dems are too weak and hypocritical to admit it (and they are right -- except that unless we push them, most Dems will still be too wimpy to impeach even if they win). If Dems stood up and demanded impeachment right now, they would probably get some of those folks on the right just for showing they have the spine to stand on principle!

Nancy Pelosi sounded like a crazy person tonight on the Newshour -- blathering on about "bi-partisan" bullshit, civility. . . could she really have NO concept of the reality they face? It is physically painful to watch them shooting themselves in the head with their lunatic "strategery."

[GreenTea]

30. Dem's seem to have their focus and aren't going to challenge this...

doing exactly what Bush/Rove are hoping for, that it'll make the Dem's look soft on terrorism if they do...It won't...It's to get Bush off the hook for breaking the law, retroactive...either way Rove feels they'll win this one, Bush will get what he needs and hopefully the Dem's will come out looking weak...Though it's so wrong not to expose them...But then, where? The republican owned corporate media that Rove rules with an iron fist won't give the Dem's a forum...so what can they do?

Stand up for what's right is what the right thing to do...This is not what America has stood for since our inception.

This is so wrong.

[mmonk]

33. HEY ELECTED DEMS

It's hard protecting and defending the constitution of the US from out here in the heartland. Why don't YOU give it a try?

[gully]

35. They will fight it. Further it's ONE issue. One very important issue

but there's lots left to fight for.

[NightOwwl]

36. When it became clear they weren't going to speak out against torture...

it also became clear they will not take the House and/or the Senate.

I am willing to bet on it.

[LaPera]

37. Man, I'm in complete agreement.

Stand for something Dem's...If we stand up, either way we win.