BUSH WAS FORCED TO EMPTY PRISONS-BECAUSE-CIA REFUSED TO OPERATE THEM!

[kpete]

CIA ‘refused to operate’ secret jails
By Guy Dinmore in Washington

Published: September 20 2006 22:07 | Last updated: September 20 2006 22:07

The Bush administration had to empty its secret prisons and transfer terror suspects to the military-run detention centre at Guantánamo this month in part because CIA interrogators had refused to carry out further interrogations and run the secret facilities, according to former CIA officials and people close to the programme.

The former officials said the CIA interrogators’ refusal was a factor in forcing the Bush administration to act earlier than it might have wished.

When Mr Bush announced the suspension of the secret prison programme in a speech before the fifth anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks, some analysts thought he was trying to gain political momentum before the November midterm congressional elections.

The administration publicly explained its decision in light of the legal uncertainty surrounding permissible interrogation techniques following the June Supreme Court ruling that all terrorist suspects in detention were entitled to protection under Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions.

more at:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/57e68ed8-48da-11db-a996-0000779e2340.html

[speedoo]

1. Bravo kpete!

Leave it to you to unearth this.

Let's see how long, if ever the MSM here takes to report this (if they ever do).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

76. Uhh... How about bravo Financial Times???

I suspect they'll be surprised to learn that they're not part of the MSM, as well.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

77. And now picked up on MSNBC.

How long until the blogosphere would have done the investigative legwork for this story, eh?

:evilgrin:

[FourScore]

84. Something really horrible must've happened.

I bet something went really wrong if the CIA is now refusing to continue the program. I mean why would they stop it so abruptly? They sound scared. Everybody's covering their asses. A sudden moral awakening just doesn't seem to fit here in this picture.

[Lerkfish]

2. when the CIA refuses to carry out the "program"

then that is one sick mfing program.

[texpatriot2004]

6. Amen brother nm

[blm]

13. You nailed that. The good guys in the CIA are fed up with BFEE and their

loyalists. It's gotta be tense in Langley.

[jwirr]

56. Not to mention that when they all get to the Hague the CIA would

be vulnerable.

[rrasile]

74. Langley Boys

When Bush leaves the White house most of these guys will take their pensions and find a place to hide. We need to start a fresh list of young college students who care for our country to fill these spots.
Wouldn't it be a trip if somehow a bankruptcy judge could cast aside the CIA and FBIs legacy benefits and leave those bastard in the position that so many Americans have found their selves.

[blm]

79. I think bringing back all the agents BushInc pushed out and purged

would be a great start - at least they proved they are loyal to the country and DIDN'T knuckle under to BushInc.

[aquart]

67. Yep. We are now relying on the integrity of the CIA.

Sends absolute chills down my spine.

Is that why they're now recruiting on TV? Their torturers up and quit so they need new ones?

[knowbody0]

3. i just love it when they refer to him

as mr bush.

thanks for posting this, i smell mutiny!

[civildisoBDence]

78. Make that mutinies, I hope

Mutiny in the CIA, mutiny among retired generals and military advisers, mutiny among our allies, mutiny among Republican Senators, mutiny among the voters, mutiny mutiny mutiny!

The mutinies are bountiful. (Sorry, couldn't help meself.)

Newsprism

[Old and In the Way]

4. Wow....I'll bet the reason CIA wanted out was that these guys were not

high value terrorists. Is it because this administration is clueless about how to fight terror...or do they use these "terrorists" as diversionary props to avoid going after the real sources of terrorism in this world. Clue: they may not be brown and more than likely are quite comfortable in an Armani tailored suit.

Here's someone who fits my profile of an Al Qaeda terrorist- Wolfgang Bohringer
http://www.madcowprod.com/

[Demeter]

5. Good For the CIA!

Now, can they PLEASE push Dumbya off the edge of the world, please? I don't care how he goes: nutcase, casualty, coup, just so he goes.

[Mike03]

7. Not Surprised

After reading HUBRIS and ONE PERCENT DOCTRINE, it's obvious what happened to the CIA. Flame me, but the majority of our intel officers are great men and women. George Tenet fucked it up because he was too eager to please Cheney and Wolfowitz. Secondly, the CIA learned a lesson from the FBI, which had far better luck with terror suspects by using a much lower key method of eliciting information. IMO, the problem was never CIA, FBI, etc, but the incompetent, ancient administration that Bush brought with him--Rummy, Cheney, and the PNAC crowd.

[razors edge]

16. cia has know for decades torture doesn't work.

[Mike03]

31. thanks

I got so flamed here a few months ago for defending the CIA, but I'm glad to know there are others who don't think they are fuckups.

[Oilwellian]

35. Yes & No

The CIA is very compartmentalized and there's good and bad within the organization. There are many CIA personnel who have the best interest of the nation at heart, but I believe there are also rogue factions involved in drug/arms sales to rogue nations, rendition, torture, and who knows what else. Due to the nature of their work, oversight is poor hence their ability to operate with impunity.

[Olney Blue]

21. i'm reading One Percent too- it makes the case you stated very well.

[Mike03]

30. Thanks for the confirm

I appreciate it.

[momster]

53. No flames here....

I know former CIA agents who are just livid that the Bushites played fast 'n' loose with intelligence leading up to the war. A lot of the CIA was not happy with the political purges that went on under Goss. They lost an age worth of experience and talent just so people with the right letter after their names (R) could get kicked up the ladder. The Peter Principle with a political twist!

[Bucky]

63. Well, don't go overboard praising the CIA

Yes, individually the preponderance of ops officers there are decent honorable people, as individuals. The problem with the CIA is that by the nature of its secret business, it has a tendency to develop a culture that is intrusive into other people's democracies and detached from ours--a big reason why Truman insisted the agency should never operate domestically.

I find it helpful to think of the CIA like a big snarling Doberman. If you keep it well trained, well fed, and used to a very tight leash, it'll work for you. The trouble is that we keep getting Republican presidents who want to take it off the leash.

[kerstin]

81. Good points all.

I've heard that Truman later regretted signing into law the centralization of intelligence agencies. Lyndon Johnson used to call the CIA "Murder Incorporated."

Certainly there are people of honor within its ranks, but the problem lies with its unaccountability. Plus it's hard to tell from this article to what degree they are morally opposed and to what degree fearful of legal consequences. I'm guessing some of both.

According to the Washington Post, individual agents are now being admonished by their superiors to buy legal insurance in case of legal action vis-à-vis past interrogation practices (and, most interesting, "wrongdoing" with respect to 9/11).

This gives me hope.

[jazzjunkysue]

8. This is my country. We aren't going to keep living like this.

Now, let's see the military follow suit.

[KAZ]

14. Can't believe we've gone this low.

And it's just the beginning.

[Jack Rabbit]

9. That jives with what the Frat Boy said the other day

Bush seems to think that if he tells a half-truth he isn't lying. After all, God would smite him for lying.

I've got a terrifying thought for Mr. Bush: there is a God and Bush in the afterlife will have to explain that to Him. Too bad I won't be there to see it.

[kerstin]

82. Well you know what they say --

a half truth is a whole lie!:thumbsdown:

[berni_mccoy]

10. Mr. Bush was forced to empty the prisons...

Because moral Americans would not obey his immoral commands.

[immoderate]

19. Moral? They were into saving their asses!

Somebody remembered that what they were doing was illegal.:think:

--IMM

[berni_mccoy]

34. I'd like to believe there are some good people doing what they can

in our gov't...

Maybe it's false hope... maybe you're right... but that would be very very sad.

[immoderate]

60. I'd like to think so too, but...

this is the CIA.

--IMM

[bullimiami]

11. they sure ran them with the kidnapping and the flights and

the torture for the last 5 years. why stop now?

[KansDem]

15. And how do you tell the CinC that you won't torture anymore?

I mean, I thought the CinC called the shots. So what do you tell your superiors who must answer to him, or his minions, that you don't want to carry out his orders anymore?

[elehhhhna]

24. FYI it's called Mutiny.

[Canuckistanian]

29. Never thought of it that way

Are CIA agents required to follow presidential orders as military members are? Is there a UCMJ for CIA?

[elehhhhna]

38. Regardless, it is called Mutiny:

mutiny
One entry found for mutiny.


Main Entry: mu·ti·ny ... forcible or passive resistance to lawful authority; especially : concerted revolt (as of a naval crew) against discipline or a superior officer

synonym see REBELLION
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mutiny

[yellowcanine]

61. Mutiny = "forcible or passive resistance to LAWFUL authority"

If someone gives an unlawful order they cease to be a lawful authority so there is no mutiny. Torture is unlawful under Geneva Conventions, U.S. is a signatory, so it is unlawful under U.S. law as well.

[elehhhhna]

69. " lawful authority" in this case means a person or persons OF authority

under the law. Bush is such a person.

For example, Mil planners who recently leaked the BA's deployment of minesweepers (a legal,lawful order) are committing mutiny against the Bush Administration, which is the lawful authority.

[yellowcanine]

83. I disagree. Ordering up torture is not a lawful order, so the authority

who ordered it is not lawful while giving that order so the person has no obligation - in fact is forbidden under international law - to carry out the order. This precedent was established with the Nuremburg prosecutions. By definition then, it is not mutiny. We are not talking about deploying minesweepers here, we are talking about torture and illegal rendition.

[elehhhhna]

87. We're both right. You are dead-on about the torture issue --

the Constitution trumps everything.

:pals:

[yellowcanine]

59. If an order is unlawful it is not mutiny to refuse to carry it out.

[TankLV]

86. In fact, there is a REQUIREMENT to NOT obey unlawful orders or acts that

are against the Geneva Conventions.

There are specific statements to that effect...

[jwirr]

57. You tell them exactly what many are saying: It is illegal so I will not

do it. Rule of Law.

[razors edge]

18. they smell blood in the water

and they want out of that water before the feeding frenzy begins.

[Solly Mack]

12. doesn't exonerate them....but it is interesting

[AtomicKitten]

17. wow, this is indeed news

and explains Junior's urgency in seeking a retroactive pardon

[Jacobin]

20. Guess the premiums on those liability policies the CIA bought

got too expensive.

I was reading that they were all buying liability policies to pay for legal defense if they got indicted for war crimes and torture

[lovuian]

22. Rebellion has started

Military next then the FBI

its like the house of cards are falling

[Change has come]

36. Maybe an October suprise for our side. n/t

:patriot:

[elehhhhna]

23. Is Babs writing "Georgies First Mutiny" in his baby-book? She should.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kpete]

26. thanks symbolman

I like your vision

This info gave me a glimpse of hope as well...maybe, just maybe....you think?

[Disturbed]

32. Two reasons:

The SC Ruling and Euro Nations were about to expose the locations of those Secret Prisons and put a halt to renditions from their countries. Matt Lauer was asked to bring up the Secret Prison issue to so that Busholini could defend their existence and the Inerrogation Methods used in them.

[dwp6577]

66. Don't forget Alberto G.

that little #*&*@#@$% makes my blood boil...

The day I see all these evil f's lined up in a chain gang shuffling their way into the hague...

that will add a decade to my life :)

[symbolman]

80. That will subtract a decade from my life! :)

I'd be dancing like a little kid again, full of faith in the ultimate direction of the human race again - FORWARD instead of back to the old days of shoot first and ask questions later.

I'd love to see a complete refusal of all govt officals to OBEY these clowns.

Gonzales, the litte punk who got another punk OUT OF DUIs now saying torture is NOT Torture.

If anything that smug little turd is TORTURING our Constitution, and reputation as a great nation, as well.

One of the main reasons for the agreement not to torture is to keep OUR troops from being subjected to it, all civilized nations are held to a standard, rules of engagement, not killing civilians in a war zone, keeping them from water, food, etc.

Yes, shuffling along in shackles is too good for them, maybe if they volunteered to be waterboarded, just to see what it felt like they might change their minds. SHOW US GEORGE, SHOW US how NON DESTRUCTIVE a Techique it is....

LEAD troops INTO BATTLE, be a MAN.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. This only happened after the Supreme Court ruling

when it was clear that if they continued they weren't going to get a 'Get Out of Jail Free Card".

[Imagevision]

27. You know there was a reason Bush exposed secret non-existing prisons

[wicket]

28. K & R

:kick:

[magellan]

33. For crap's sake, the CIA are NOT heroes in this

Do remember they were fine with dispensing Bush**'s torture program until the SC ruling put their butts on the line.

All this does is clarify why Bush** was so repetitively adamant in his Rose Garden speech last Friday that without legislation to clarify Article 3, "the program will NOT GO FORWARD".

Every last one of them who are involved in this, including the CIA personnel, are fucking sadistic traitors who are imperiling our national security and helping to devastate our standing in the world.

[Disturbed]

37. Damn right the CIA are not heroes!

The CIA has manuel of Torture. The CIA is in the business of overthrowing democratically elected governments that are Socialistic. Their entire mission is to maintain, defend and promote Capitalism, period.

[Raksha]

47. I've come to the same conclusion myself,

namely that the CIA's real mission is to "maintain, defend and promote capitalism," as you said. It may even have been the founding mission, considering all the leftover Nazis who were involved in the formative stages. But do you believe it's the mission of the entire CIA?

For example: It's hard to see Valerie Plame or our friend and ally Larry Johnson as having anything to do with this evil crap. For the last few years I've believed there's a power struggle going on in the CIA between the old Nazi and criminal element and a newer generation of intelligence professionals.

[elehhhhna]

39. Correct. Late cya move. Guess they'll have to testify against Bush

at the Hague in exchange for lighter sentences.

wah.

"You tortured. Get over it."

[alfredo]

41. Sure they are low life thugs, but they did show a flash of

conscience. We have to believe people can become awake, recognize their unfortunate path, then endeavor to make things right. Let's give them every chance to rejoin the human race.

I could be wrong, they could be covering their asses, but I want to believe they are coming to the light.

[magellan]

45. Conscience?

Conscience isn't stopping your illegal activities because it looks like you're about to be busted. Conscience is refusing to commit the crime in the first place because you know it's WRONG.

The kind of people who would do these things to other human beings, knowing full well the victim may be innocent, have no more conscience than Bush**. That's why they're selected for the job.

The timing of the CIA torture rebellion says nothing about conscience and everything about fearing having their asses thrown in jail.

[alfredo]

65. their parents failed them by not teaching them the difference

between right or wrong. Will their parents be grief stricken to know they raised war criminals.

What I am about to say is in no way in support of the thugs who tortured prisoners.

When you go inside the intelligence world you become a prisoner of the system. Not only are you subjected to peer pressure, you are subjected to laws concerning classified documents. Fears of ten and two and black sedans, may be a distant possibility, they still are there in the back of your mind. Most of the guys going in are young men, still caught up in that youthful tribal instinct. They really want to belong.

The fact that you are breaking international law becomes a shared secret. Instead of isolating you, it brings you closer to your peers. You soon find you are part of a tribe, a gang, a club. In that world when your superiors say such an action is vital to national security and has been fully vetted by the nations' top lawyers you believe them, partly out of patriotism, partly out of wanting to go along with your peers, partly out of denial, and partly out of fear of reprisals.

Our leaders know this and use it to their advantage. They know that they can have the people in their charge act with honor, or act like monsters. Our present government has chosen to create monsters.

Because their leaders are criminals does not remove responsibility the individual under their control. Yes they are responsible for their actions, but we should be grateful that they, for whatever reason, have stood their ground. Their refusal to follow illegal orders is a very good sign.

Attitude flows downhill in any organization. These men would not have tortured without the climate created by the man at top. A closed society like you find in the military or the intelligence community creates their own moral code. If the man at top is evil, his sickness will flow down to all below.

[chill_wind]

70. Yep!!! nt

[Clarkie1]

40. K & R. nt

[Divine Discontent]

42. thanks for linking this kpete, you are a great American!

and a great lady for all this finding the news for us.


and I thought this was a conspiracy link at first, then to find out it's real news!!!!!!!??? WOW~! this is big news to me!


Bush is on the hot seat, I mean that - I never felt that before, but he's truly on fire right now. He could literally be called for his crimes if this keeps up, and esp. if we win the congress back (fingers crossed, praying)


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts

[kpete]

44. THANKS

That is quite a nice compliment...

Peace!

[Divine Discontent]

46. Thank you. (big hug)

:hug:

[savemefromdumbya]

43. mutiny?

[Chomskyite]

48. Plus consider the source

The august, conservative (by UK standards) Financial Times. Incredible.

[fooj]

49. Apparently, they didn't need special clarification...

:grr:

[AntiFascist]

50. I'm getting really tired of this misadministration...

after watching Keith Olbermann's #5 tonight it is starting to become clear why they need to torture: they need to force confessions from likely suspects to show, politically, that it looks like they are making progress in the war on terror. The big problem with this, moral and legal issues aside, is that they may not be focusing on the right people, giving us a false sense of security. They probably won't even touch Saudis or anyone who is connected to royalty or the banking industry! Apparently, they can't even cover up their strategy very well, making us all look very bad in the eyes of the world. We need to bring them down, NOW!

[Senator]

51. Hamdan Ruling Made Them International Fugitives

All the prattling on by the DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy here didn't change the reality of the Hamdan Ruling.

It concluded that 3 years of war crimes had already been committed.

This made the perpetrators subject to arrest, anywhere in the world, by literally anyone claiming to operate under the color of international law.

Even setting aside those with justice in their hearts, can you imagine the amount of taxpayer money the bushkid regime would have shuttled off in unmarked suitcases just to keep such an "arrest" quiet?

What the CIA thugs are covering on their asses is the big red bullseye these neofascist chickenhawks put there with their masturbatory obsession with violence (by proxy of course) as a panacea.

==

[Disturbed]

52. The Italian Govt arrested 24 CIA Agents.

They were charged with kidnapping. I haven't heard about that case in a long while.

[riderinthestorm]

55. I don't think they were arrested.

There are warrants out for their arrest only if I can recall.

[Miss Chybil]

73. What you said makes a lot of sense.

Oh, where is the journalist who'll put this all together?

[elehhhhna]

88. THAT , my friend, should be an OP in itsself.

Mind starting a thread w/ it? Please?

[emald]

54. so what has changed in the last five years

that now the CIA doesn't want to CONTINUE doing these horrible acts of inhumanity. Why now? What has changed?

[Bucky]

64. The world has changed since 9/12

Do you remember September 12th? French headlines saying "We are all Americans" and Dan Rather asking "where do I sign up?" Overnight we forgot Chaundra Levy--I've still forgotten how to spell her name.

What's changed it that, once you're no longer numb, you start to feel that knife in your back.

[redqueen]

68. Transparency.

Since it became an open secret, they realized the danger to themselves if they continued?

Just a guess...

Gotta keep their hands clean on these high-visibility issues so their coup attempts in foreign countries won't be scrutinized too closely?

[EarthNeedsHope]

58. The CIA supports human rights more than Bush

He's really up the creek without a paddle now.

[Divine Discontent]

85. yeah,

real nice to know that, right? well they got their bill passed... wonder if they GOP senators feel good just because they made sure that it said, "NO TORTURE IS ALLOWED" even though the actions taken will be torture anyhow.. well, we'll wait and see, maybe, just maybe it won't say that. but regardless, I can't believe they still don't torture and ignore the rules... but supposedly the CIA is saying we're not doing it anymore unless you get it approved --

this is all so weird to me.

[Seabiscuit]

62. No wonder * got so apoplectic in the Rose Garden last Friday

He kept saying "the program will not go forward" if Congress doesn't pass into law his proposal to authorize torture. The CIA interrogators apparently refused to "go forward" knowing that the Supreme Court has said they are committing crimes until their activity is authorized by an act of Congress.

Petulant little whistle-ass.

[Rex]

71. Good fer the CIA!

nt

[Miss Chybil]

72. Bush said they refused to torture and for once he was telling the truth.

Now, he just needs a law to make them torture. I hope they stand up to the Congress as well as they did the president.

[The Witch]

75. "The program will NOT GO FORWARD," he said at presser.

We thought he was threatening us. Maybe he was just telling the truth.