November 2006: passport to register and drivers license to vote?

[Eric J in MN]

That is what will happen if H.R. 4844 becomes law.

The full House is planning to vote on it this Wednesday.

Please ask your Congressperson to vote against H.R. 4844.

I received an email from Common Cause against this bill. It discriminates against the poor, who are less likely to have photo ID, but it also discrimates against anyone who doesn't have a passport.

[acmavm]

1. If this passes without a squeak from the elected dems in

Washington then I would respectfully request that everyone who says 'support the party no matter what' shut up. If they want to be a party to the disenfranchisement of the American people then they are no better than the other side.

[Eric J in MN]

2. I expect a mostly party line vote, but we need to persuade...

...some Republicans to vote against it to stop it from passing the House, since Republicans have a majority.

If this reaches the Senate, theoretically Democrats could filibuster, but I'd prefer if the bill doesn't get that far.

[woodsprite]

4. Cause what's the chance they'd actually filibuster? Slim2none. n/t

[Horse with no Name]

14. But our fucking powder is DRY

and THAT is what counts, isn't it?:sarcasm:

[TAPat]

3. Right this minute I am ashamed to say that

I live in the fine Blue state of Illinois - Henry Hyde can kiss my :dem:

[woodsprite]

5. Convenient. Gets everyone an RFID too! Kills 2 birds with 1 stone. n/t

[nickinSTL]

6. getting a passport is fairly expensive

so, this discriminates even MORE against the poor than the general picture ID laws, since many states will provide a non-driver's license state ID free of charge.

[Captain Hilts]

7. DMV does it for free. How does one get by w/o a photo i.d. in this world?

[Eric J in MN]

8. DMV does what for free? NT

NT

[Captain Hilts]

9. They'll issue an i.d. to non-drivers. nt

[Omphaloskepsis]

13. A DMV issued photo ID is $25 here.

I don't have one. I just use my passport.

[Horse with no Name]

15. Ummm no

in Texas it isn't free. It is the same price as a Drivers License.

[Ravenseye]

17. $10 in Pennsylvania

Very affordable.

[Horse with no Name]

19. Unless you are a single parent

who makes minimum wage that has trouble putting food on the table.
Again, what is affordable to you may not be to someone else.
When I was a single parent attending college and working, I remember having to hock my vacuum cleaner to put food on the table.
$10 was a gold mine--I could buy food for 2-3 days with that.
I guarantee the very last thing I would have done was to spend that $10 for an ID so I could vote.
My kids could forego my not voting, but they couldn't forego eating for two days.
THAT, my friend, is exactly how you disenfranchise a voter. The people that have to choose between eating and voting will, 9 times out of 10, vote Democratic. THAT is how you lose elections.

[Ravenseye]

21. How is that person working?

How did that person get a legal job without providing photo identification as required by the employer to prove identity for the tax code?

When you were a single parent attending college and working, hocking your vacuum cleaner to put food on the table, did you have a photo ID?

If State Photo ID's were free, would you still be opposed?

[Horse with no Name]

25. Well back in those days

You didn't have to fill out all the forms on ID that you do now.
Yes I had an ID, but if that ID had expired, I would not have had the money to get it renewed.
I love your condescending attitude towards the struggles that I faced as a single parent. Makes me want to :puke:, but at least lets me know what kind of person you are.
Makes me wonder why you are even here if you can't empathize with someone below your station in life.
Why are you so gung ho on everyone having an ID?
That would probably be a very telling answer.

[Ravenseye]

28. I'm not

I just don't fully understand why people are so dead set against it. I see benefits from it. Hell, I need to show my photo ID to get a Fishing license, but not to vote? That seems odd to me. Yeah it comes down to what I have a right to do. I have a right to vote, but fishing is a priviledge? Just seems weird.

I love how you read a condesecending attitude from questions. Sorry that I don't take your word as gospel, but I don't do that from anyone. You complain about the inabilty of people in your previous situation to get a photo ID, yet you yourself had one. How does that even qualify as anecdotal evidence to support your argument?

I know what it's like to not be able to pay the bills with children in the house and a family to support, so don't think that you have a superior argument, simply because you assume that I live at a higher station and can't understand what you went through.

Am I not allowed to ask questions about the party line? Someone says "X is bad" and I don't understand why, and I ask some questions about "Why X is bad" and you assume i'm some arrogant effette asshole? I'm not. Maybe I'm slow or something, but I like to understand an issue before I decide which side of the fence I'm on. That's why I like discussion boards. Because I can ask questions, and have them answered.

I'm not gung ho on everyone having an ID. I'm just asking questions.

[slackmaster]

29. Not so in California

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#idcard_reducedfee

I guess that would qualify as a "reduced poll tax".

[Eric J in MN]

35. OK, but a driver's license doesn't say nationality.

At least not a Minnesota driver's license.

The bill requires proof of citizenship to register.

[Ravenseye]

11. Don't you need a photo ID to work?

I've never had a job where for tax purposes they didn't ask for either a drivers liscence and some other form of id (military ID, etc) or a Passport to prove who I was for tax purposes. How do people without a photo ID work if they can't provide that tax documenation?

[Captain Hilts]

12. Same for me. I don't know how folks get through life w/o a photo i.d. nt

[Ravenseye]

16. Well without a photo ID

From what I understand without a photo ID you...

Can't legally work.
Can't drive.
Can't fly.
Can't have a credit card.
Can't own a home.
Can't enter public buildings.
Can't take scholastic tests outside of school (SAT, MCAT, GRE, etc).

I'm sure there's more. So now they're adding voting to the list, which can be gotten around for free by going to the DMV and getting a state ID.

I have a friend who doesn't drive, and never travelled. He doesn't have a drivers liscence or a passport, but he has a state ID. I've talked to him about it and he's basically said it'd be impossible to exist without the photo ID. I'm sure there are poor people out there without a photo ID who don't do any of the things listed above, and they shouldn't be punished for it, but at the same time...getting an ID is free, and if they're not doing any of those things, I have to wonder how many of them are not voting as well.

[ima_sinnic]

39. you can't even rent movies w/out a photo ID, & can't get food stamps

or any other government assistance program.
you can't attend a community college or university.
you can't cash a check, including a "welfare" check or SS check.
you can't open a bank account.
you can't get a discount bus pass for disabled/elderly (at least, as far as I know, if you are "on the edge" of the elderly age requirement and need to show proof of age)
you can't get your taxes done by a place like H&RBlock.
you can't pick up Special Delivery mail without some form of ID.
many homeless shelters ask for photo ID.

and how do the "working poor" cash a paycheck without a photo ID?

a photo ID is not a big deal and people start to sound whiney when they talk about what a "hardship" it is to have one. It is just one of those annoying realities in this society. Could live in the woods and eat roots and berries, I suppose, and have nothing to do with the "outside world."

[Horse with no Name]

18. I'll try to make it very simple

Say you have an 80-year old disabled blind woman.
She really has no need for a valid photo ID since she isn't working or driving.
It is probably pretty difficult for her to get out to get one.
So..it is OKAY to deny this woman the right to vote?
THAT is what you are saying, correct?
Part of being a progressive thinker entails that you don't judge others by your standards.
Just because YOU can't get through life without a picture ID, doesn't mean that others can. So in your view, we should systematically purge their rights as citizens because since YOU can do it, everybody else should be able to. Nice.Not.

[Ravenseye]

20. Funny

I live next door to a...well she's older than 80...disabled blind woman. Heck she gets out more than me. The City provides a shuttle bus to the disabled. I see her all over and work from home, so I hear the shuttle nearly every day honking for her to come out.

Still I understand your point, that there are people who don't need a valid photo ID in their lives. If it's too hard for her to get a valid photo ID though will it not also be hard to vote? If she needs help from someone in order to vote (to take her to the polling place, or help her fill out her form), wouldn't she also have similar help to get the photo ID?

Your strawman arguments are somewhat tiresome. Where did anyone say it was ok to deny anyone the right to vote? We're simply discussing the topic and you come in here with strawman arguments attacking people. Relax.

[Horse with no Name]

24. Perhaps YOU need to relax

not every city in America has shuttles.

[Ravenseye]

26. No they don't

Ok so how does an 80 year old disabled blind woman who lives 6 miles out of town, which is a one stoplight town with 1,000 people, do anything? Forget voting, how does she get food? How does she get to church? How does she pay her electric bill?

If this hypothetical woman is surviving anywhere in this country she's doing it with some form of assistance, whether it be from a neighbor, or the city, or the state. She'd need help to put food on her table, and need help to vote, yet she couldn't get help to get a photo ID?

I do need to relax. My shoulder is killing me from being at the computer too much. ;)

[Captain Hilts]

23. How did she apply and receive Social Security? What does she show...

when she receives medical care or picks up a prescription?

[Horse with no Name]

27. One has to wonder where you live...

Medicare/Social Security are applied for when you are 65. Correct? It isn't something that you have to reapply for is it?
Okay. In our state, ID's are only valid for 6 years I believe.
So you think it is improbable that this woman hasn't let hers expire?
I don't know where YOU live, but I never show ID at the Doctor OR at the pharmacy.
Never have and I have been to some of the best specialists in Dallas.
Most I show is my insurance card.
Speaking of strawmen...

[Captain Hilts]

31. Expired i.d.s are often still valid. nt

[slackmaster]

30. Yes

But you don't have to be employed or employable in order to qualify to vote.

[Ravenseye]

32. True

I was just responding to the post about how one gets by. Sort of cataloging the things you already need a photo ID for in this world, though obviously there are people who aren't employed or employable who still qualify to vote.

I think the question though is whether getting a photo ID qualifies as a hardship which would prevent people from voting, by those who don't already have one. There would seem to be two reasons that it could be a hardship. One, that the person can't afford to get the ID, either in money for the fee to pay for the ID, or the time necessary to go to the DMV and obtain one. Two, that the person is unable for one reason or another to actually get to a DMV or place to get a Photo ID.

I think that most state ID's are affordable. In Pennsylvania they're 10 dollars. For a family on a tight budget that's alot of money, but it's essentially a one time expense every 6 years, and falls into one of those incidental expenditures that makes living on a tight budget sometimes pure misery. Still, a solution would be to make a non-driving photo identification free. I support this. I don't think a citizen should have to pay money to prove they're a citizen. It's should be a benefit of 'membership' so to speak.

So if cost becomes a non-issue, then how about hardship in obtaining one. I think that if we can get a passport by going to the post office, we should be able to get a photo ID in the same way. Still there might be people who are incapable of leaving the house for one reason or another....Lets say that person is a 'bubble boy' and can't leave their protective bubble in their room or die, to have an extreme almost strawman example. If a person is incapable of leaving the house, they MUST have someone helping them. That person could take their picture for the photo ID, and send it in with the form in the mail, like you can do for a passport.

I wonder though, if people here would still be opposed to needing a photo ID to vote if the photo ID were free and availble via mail.

[SheilaT]

34. There are jobs out there

that don't require a photo I.D. I'm currently in one. I'm a paralegal working part time for an attorney in solo practice. I'm actually an independent contractor, and my attorney never asked for proof of who I am, or if I'm a citizen, or any of that stuff. Of course, it helps that I'm a middle-aged white woman who speaks English with a regional American accent, but still.

And other than having to show my social security card, jobs at least into 1980 did not require multiple proofs of identity.

[Sapere aude]

38. It is for the I-9 form to prove you are eligible to work in the USA.

You need two forms of ID. Usually a driver's license and a social security card if you are a citizen and a green card if you are not.

[Ravenseye]

10. Can you sum it up for me?

I'm wadeing through this or trying to...How does it discriminate against those without a passport?

[slackmaster]

33. Two word summary...

"Poll tax."

[AspenRose]

22. I got an action notice from NAACP regarding this bill too

So I posted a thread and it sank like a stone.

Thanks for bringing this up AGAIN.....

:kick:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2157894

[ComerPerro]

36. Some liberals can't empathize. They got theirs, so screw you, they figure

its a very Republican mindset, but I see it more and more every day here

[SoCalDem]

37. Americans need to grow up, and accept the fact that we need IDs

Most people have MANY (too many)..

Europeans have had passports and national IDs for ages and most of the people probably don't mind all that much..

A REAL ID is a first step toward that national health care that most of us want, and in a country that seems to have no idea just who is here, for how long, and even how many, it might just be time to take a real count.

MOST people are "known" to some organization.. old people are known to social security, poor people are known to social services, children are known to schools, home owners are known to tax collectors, employees are known to employers and the IRS..

The thing that needs to happen in to use a few days' worth or "Iraq War, the Blunder" and use that money to get all US citizens a passport..

First one's free...that includes getting everyone the documentation necessary to get a passport..

Once that's done, even an expired passport could be/should be able to be used for voting purposes....and it would go a long way toward an accurate count of actual citizens..

IF the national health care issue ever advances, you have to know that there would have to be a method built in to prevent non-citizens from accessing that care, so why not jump the first hurdle.

No one is forcing anyone to use the passport to leave the country..

It's just the best ID one could have, and it's farly cheap to renew..

The govt should provide the first one free..

and if you drag it out of the drawer every 2 years to go vote, what's the harm?

[Nobody]

40. I'm against it and I'm an election judge

If you're pre-registered to vote, you go to the pre-reg table and give your name. Then we ask you for your address. If you're not at that address anymore, you have to re-register. If you don't know the address, you're probably not that person and can't vote.

We have had only SEVEN problems last election (the presidential, no less) and MN is the state with the highest turnout. Our precinct was one of the heaviest in the state. SEVEN problems. Not seven hundred or seventy seven but SEVEN. Of those, five were looked into and found to be non-problems. The pther two were real issues. The trainer at election judge training didn't get more detailed than that.

With no ID, and only having SEVEN problems and of those only two were legitimate, that's better than anyone could ever hope for, even WITH ID.

Furthermore, if you believe that someone is not really living at a particular address or not a US citizen or a convicted felon without civil rights restored, you may challenge their right to vote in that precinct in writing before the election. Their pre-registration entry will have a challenge next to their name and the challenge has to be resolved if they show up to vote. We have means of dealing with it.

Again, there has been so few problems with this.

If you register and vote same day, you do have to show a picture ID (to prove that you are you) and proof of residence (proof that you live in the precinct). That proof may be a utility bill and expired driver's license. Or that proof may be a current driver's license. You may also bring in your next door neighbor who can vouch that you live where you live and are who you are.

I would far rather to make it easy for people to vote on election day. We have low turnout to start with, and I really don't want to come away from a primary overjoyed at 20% turnout. I want to consider that unacceptably low, even for a primary.

As for IDs, I make it a point never to carry mine unless I'm buying alcohol, planning to pay for something by check, or driving (though technically you don't have to carry it, but if you're pulled over for DWB* you will not get to bring it to the DMV later. This is not right. The law should be the same for everyone.)