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Here's what got da PaPa in deep CaCa

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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:03 PM
Original message
Here's what got da PaPa in deep CaCa
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 10:19 PM by UTUSN
********QUOTE******
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873277,00.html
.... I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on - perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara - by

the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus

and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

It was presumably

the emperor himself

who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than those of his Persian interlocutor.

The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Qur'an, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship between - as they were called - three "Laws" or "rules of life": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an.

It is not my intention to discuss this question in the present lecture; here I would like to discuss only one point - itself rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole - which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason", I found interesting and which can serve as the starting-point for my reflections on this issue.

In the seventh conversation edited by Professor Khoury,

the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war.

The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion".

According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".



The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why

spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.

"God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably ... is contrary to God's nature.

Faith is born of the soul, not the body.

Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly,

without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".



The decisive statement in this argument

against violent conversion

is this:

not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature.

The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. ....

********UNQUOTE******
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Stargazer99 Donating Member (943 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fundamentalist/Dominionist "Christians" take note
The strong arm tactics you advocate are the same as radical Muslims. It ought to tell you something.
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Eh? "you" who??? n/t Oh, I get it, addressing Fundies n/t
Edited on Mon Sep-18-06 10:11 PM by UTUSN
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. the Demionists make Al Quita and the Talaban look like Boy Scouts
they are like the Queen in Alice in Wonder Land.. pronounced a word wrong in the Bible.. Flay Him!!
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-18-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. learned about Jesus at 6yrs, immediately figured it was another Santa Claus
easter bunny, trick.. i was forced to go to church and kept waiting for the punch line.. then i realized those fools were really serious.. it was a real shock.
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