Does bush not have a conscience like normal people?

[Philosoraptor]

I wonder about bush sometimes, him and his buddies, they make big talk about being compassionate, but I seriously doubt they have a normal human conscience like we do.

How could they? bush stands there at the podium for over a month now BEGGING to be allowed to torture prisoners of war like its the most important issue this nation has ever faced, could a person with a conscience do that?

How does a man like that face soldiers with no legs or faces left after he lied them into Iraq? Does his conscience EVER bother him? Does he EVER think about all the dead people in Iraq, and does it EVER weigh heavily on his soul?

How is it that America now has a president and staff who are without a human conscience?

A nation led by men with no conscience is doomed.

[texanwitch]

1. No, I think that Bush is the bad seed.

There was an old movie about a little girl who killed just because she wanted something.

I think the movie was named The Bad Seed.

[Skittles]

2. I believe the death of his sister made him a sociopath

it was handled so badly he completely supresses emotion except when he is excited about destruction. Real human compassion and empathy he simply mimics, and badly.

[pnwmom]

46. I don't think it was that. It was the totality of his upbringing.

My gut impression is that Barbara raised him to be the unfeeling narcissist that he is.

[pnwmom]

3. I think the simple answer is no, he doesn't.

Part of having a conscience is having empathy for other human beings. He's a narcissist -- totally self-absorbed. Not a drop of empathy because other people simply don't exist for him. Anyone who doesn't feed his ego and support his high opinion of himself simply doesn't exist. And even when he cares about someone -- let's assume he cares about his children -- he doesn't see them as separate people with their own personalities -- but as extensions of himself. In other words, he cares about them because they ARE him. But if they ever defined themselves apart from him, he could slap them away like a bug.

It's hard to describe this kind of person to anyone who hasn't had the misfortune to know one. But once you "get" this personality, it's easy to spot them. They're all the same, in a way. They have this utterly dismissive attitude toward people who don't fit into their agenda. And all their mental energy is taken up with propping up their outer image of themselves -- because inside they're completely empty.

[Chipper Chat]

11. A good example to back up your rationale is the

"now watch this drive" epilogue to his "we must capture and defeat the terrorists" remarks to reporters in August of 2001. You may remember this scene from "Fahrenheit 9-11."

[pnwmom]

43. Oh yes -- I remember that. Almost unbelievable -- except it wasn't.

The other sign is the way his handlers treat him -- always being so careful to keep him in his bubble -- away from TV, away from newspapers, away from protesters or anyone who disagrees with him. That's because narcissists can't stand any criticism . They must be worshiped by everyone around them -- or they're threatened to their (empty) core.

The flip side is that they can be easy to manipulate by those around them -- because they'll believe anything flattering a sycophant tells them.

[Chipper Chat]

51. Elvis became like this too -

unfortunately.

[marions ghost]

29. right, you describe exactly how I see Dubbie

you made an insightful comment about kids--he defines his children "as extensions of himself...if they ever defined themselves apart from him, he could slap them away like a bug." This is SO characteristic of Narcissists and many find it hard to believe and yet I have seen this occur on more than one occasion. This destroys families.

Even when his previous supporters withdraw affection and support (ie. stop being "extensions") ...the pResident and his equally Narcissist entourage will not care one bit what happens to them and will take sadistic pleasure at the suffering of those they once pretended to care about.

I also agree that this personality type is very easy to spot once you "get" it. Because pathological Narcissists are able to function well under certain conditions where their needs are met, many people do not see them as abnormal. But especially as they are so chameleon-like, they can be incredibly destructive.

Yes, once you get inside a Narcissist's head, it's very scary. There is no center, no 'there' there.
Kind of like quicksand.

[pnwmom]

44. Right -- he doesn't care one whit about anyone who

isn't an active supporter. There's certainly never been a president in my lifetime -- or any other politician that I've had represent me -- that is so blatant an example of a narcissist. People would talk about Clinton sometimes -- they had no idea. Clinton did some stupid selfish things, -- but he's just a normally flawed human being.

Bush is so narcissistic that he's almost inhuman, as far as I'm concerned. Because what distinguishes us more from other species than our conscious empathy for other beings?

[ima_sinnic]

4. lack of conscience is a defining characteristic of neocons

--even the title of John Dean's book says it all: "Conservatives without Conscience."

They can plunder, rape, and murder without batting an eye. To them, human beings are like ants, something to be stepped on if they're in the way. For them it's all about their "me." If it will fatten their own wallets, that's all that counts. Right now, war and strife are making them rich and that's ALL they care about. They are alien scum.

[meldroc]

53. I too have read Conservatives Without Conscience.

It's not just Bush that's like this. Add Cheney, Rove, Gonzales, Rice, Bolton, Abramoff, Delay and Frist to the list, and I'm sure I've missed quite a few.

A lot of it comes from being an old fashioned sociopath. Also throw in the Right Wing Authoritarian personality and the Social Dominant Orientation personality from sociology. IMHO, positions of power are attractive to such despicable personalities much more than in more normal people, so they tend to concentrate in places like the Beltway.

Fundamentalist religion also brings out this sort of behavior. The core belief of Christianity is that if you repent your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, you will be forgiven of your sins and be taken to heaven. For some, that starts a vicious cycle where they go commit sins, then go to church, confess, feel absolved, and remove the guilt from their conscience. Then they go sin some more, repent some more, and thus acclimate themselves to doing terrible things routinely even though they consider themselves to be highly moral. Eventually, they get to the point where they're literally sinning for Jesus, and consider themselves to be "God's Designated Hitters" (to borrow a phrase from Dean's book.)

[HornBuckler]

5. Sometimes - it's already been said by someone more clever

than I

John Brown by Bob Dylan

John Brown went off to war to fight on a foreign shore.
His mama sure was proud of him!
He stood straight and tall in his uniform and all.
His mama's face broke out all in a grin.

"Oh son, you look so fine, I'm glad you're a son of mine,
You make me proud to know you hold a gun.
Do what the captain says, lots of medals you will get,
And we'll put them on the wall when you come home."

As that old train pulled out, John's ma began to shout,
Tellin' ev'ryone in the neighborhood:
"That's my son that's about to go, he's a soldier now, you know."
She made well sure her neighbors understood.

She got a letter once in a while and her face broke into a smile
As she showed them to the people from next door.
And she bragged about her son with his uniform and gun,
And these things you called a good old-fashioned war.

Oh! Good old-fashioned war!

Then the letters ceased to come, for a long time they did not come.
They ceased to come for about ten months or more.
Then a letter finally came saying, "Go down and meet the train.
Your son's a-coming home from the war."

She smiled and went right down, she looked everywhere around
But she could not see her soldier son in sight.
But as all the people passed, she saw her son at last,
When she did she could hardly believe her eyes.

Oh his face was all shot up and his hand was all blown off
And he wore a metal brace around his waist.
He whispered kind of slow, in a voice she did not know,
While she couldn't even recognize his face!

Oh! Lord! Not even recognize his face.

"Oh tell me, my darling son, pray tell me what they done.
How is it you come to be this way?"
He tried his best to talk but his mouth could hardly move
And the mother had to turn her face away.

"Don't you remember, Ma, when I went off to war
You thought it was the best thing I could do?
I was on the battleground, you were home . . . acting proud.
You wasn't there standing in my shoes."

"Oh, and I thought when I was there, God, what am I doing here?
I'm a-tryin' to kill somebody or die tryin'.
But the thing that scared me most was when my enemy came close
And I saw that his face looked just like mine."

Oh! Lord! Just like mine!

"And I couldn't help but think, through the thunder rolling and stink,
That I was just a puppet in a play.
And through the roar and smoke, this string is finally broke,
And a cannon ball blew my eyes away."

As he turned away to walk, his Ma was still in shock
At seein' the metal brace that helped him stand.
But as he turned to go, he called his mother close
And he dropped his medals down into her hand.

[Random_Australian]

6. I say he does, just like the rest of us.

I don't think people are appreciating how different the information we see is.

I'm also starting to think this is FAE.

[acmavm]

8. Could you please explain your post? I don't understand one word of

what you're talking about.

It's really hard for me to attribute a conscience to a man (excuse the exaggeration) who will lie about any and everything and to hell with the price the people of this nation, or any nation, has to pay.

That does not go along with my understanding of having a conscience.

[cornermouse]

12. I think he's thinking Bush is getting bad information.

Another possibility would be that Bush is putting too much importance on the wrong information.

I think the no conscience theory is probably closer to the truth, but I think a possibility that isn't really talked about much is that he could just be the most selfish and grasping person we've ever seen.

[demigoddess]

54. read bush on the couch". it is a good book that analyzes the what and why

of bush. He does not think well, brain damage, learning disability, cocaine damage and then you add in his spoiled but ignored upbringing. Personally, I think he is a narcissist, which seems to happen in any family. I have relatives that are that way. There is just no one answer that tells us why it happens but it is an awful thing to have in the oval office, especially at this time in the world.
"

[Random_Australian]

13. Sure- here we go:

Basically, it is the same mechanism by which you can get otherwise rational people to have something very strange in what they believe, for instance there are people who are mostly normal, but homophobes.

Basically, the information they found was from FReep-like places. In other words, they made a false assessment based on poor information.

But do that a lot of times, and you get someone who's worldview is very far from reality.

Enter *.

I would also say that when talking about how he does not stop, for example, torture, there is a lot more distance involved, a bit like the difference between stabbing someone and dropping a bomb from 40,000 feet.

Finally, the last thing about the info they would get is that it is insulating. From what I have heard, they prefer fox and similar as news sources.... if you had heard the ways they put it, you might (if you were a FReep) start beleiving this shit was justifified, and that (more importantly) you were justified in not watching it. In other words, you have not seen it, or spent time thinking about it, so it is just so much less REAL.

[ima_sinnic]

17. * did NOT have "poor information"!! anyone who believes that,

I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
He and his war-profiteering buddies knew EXACTLY what the situation was in Iraq. He and his buddies have known since at least 1998 that they wanted to invade that country. Getting him installed as figurehead was a part of the puzzle to make that "holy war" happen.
Lives ruined, people losing limbs, children orphaned, suffering, hunger, pain--none of it means anything to him. All he cares about is himself and the few people who can do things for him.

[Random_Australian]

21. Wrong poor!

They may well know the exact count of the amount of people tortured, for instance, but I doubt that anyone who has does not have heuristic defenses against ever got him to understand what was happenening to them.

Figures on paper can be as accurate as anything without being the same information you get. I would say that it perpetuates an unrealisitc world-view, and is thus poor.

It may, however, be factually completely correct.

[hyphenate]

34. I would say that

he takes after Babs in that regard--I don't think she has a conscience, either. It's something that's been in front of us for 16 years at least, but the media hid it well, and until you read and research her, you couldn't tell. But yeah--Babs is also an unglued Narcissist.

[cornermouse]

19. Something you might want to factor in

Back when Dallas was The show to watch, someone had an interview with Larry Hagman, who I loved in I Dream of Jeannie and never watched in Dallas because he was so despicable.

Anyway, during the interview Hagman made a comment to the effect that his JR character was not nearly as bad as the real oil tycoons and that if we knew what they were really like we would be shocked; that some of them would sell their grandmother if they could get money from it.

If I remember correctly his father was some sort of business bigwig and he had met some of his father's business acquaintances so he may very well have known what he was talking about.

He might have known what he was talking about.

[Random_Australian]

23. Aye, I have been thinking about things like this.

Though I don't have the evidence to reject H-nought, I am suspecting there is some kind of selection algorithm beyond the democratic process.

Thinking, thinking, thinking.

I love statistics.

But yes - that is more information for me to factor in.

I wonder about the re-enforcers involved though. Such a strong link between money and primary re-enforces that I wonder if those without it so much as the goal can maintain the same complete blindness without.... 'help'.

[izzie]

26. I think it is just on a different level than ours.

Look at history and see what 'good' people did to each other in the name of God or some other reason and felt they were really right and were good people. It is hard to understand but it looks us in the face every place one turns. These are abstract words that one has a hard job saying means one thing. Like freedom etc. We all tend to see it through our own eyes. Just look at the history of slavery to see my point. I frankly see Bush as an evil man but that is how I feel.

[annabanana]

9. I would love to see some indications,

even a link or two, that would showcase his conscience. Any accounts of selfless philanthropy? Anything? Do they publish these things downunder... and our "liberal media" just don't pick up on it?

Do tell.

[Random_Australian]

14. Eh? What do you mean?

Actually, this was posted BEFORE my last post.

It should make sense why we don't see this stuff now.

[Tace]

10. Heh, Had To Look Up FAE -- Fetal Achohol Syndrome

He seems emotionally and intellectually, even criminally, crippled somehow, whether congenital or not. His family's involvement with the attempted coup on Roosevelt and later involvement with the Nazis (and possibly the Kennedy assasination, as part of the Texas mob that Eisenhower warned us about) suggests that whatever's wrong with him goes back at least several generations.

[Random_Australian]

15. Not that FAE!

Sorry for putting it in acronym. I have a psychology research report due thursday so I am up to my ears in this stuff. (Before you start thinking I am some sort of qualified person on this subject, no I am not, just a 1st year (But in an Aussie university).

This one is Fundamental Attribution Error - where something is externally caused, but we attribute the reason for that as internal to the person.

[Bluebear]

7. Simple. He ain't right. >>>>>>

Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools.

Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.

You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.

You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.

How will you live your life?

What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)?

The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites. <...>

Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.

If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. <...>

http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

[Ino]

16. Bluebear, thanks for that link!

There is much, much more information there, all of it eye-opening!

A must read!
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

[Disturbed]

18. I coined the term Silverspoon Sociopath especially for

Busholini.

[liberal N proud]

20. The entire regime has no conscience

They have no feelings for anything that doesn't put green in their pockets.

[marions ghost]

42. agreed

this is why the situation we are in is especially dangerous. The people who have elevated the Chimp are made out of the same mold as he is. These narcissist types often clump together, craving money & power but also attention. As a group they can be formidable, which may be one reason why more reasonable members of government have a hard time opposing them. It's obvious how ruthless and dangerous they are. Without a conscience, without internal controls...scary.

What can be done to stop this kind of regime from gaining power, I'm not sure. But they are certifiably twisted.
(Gotta read that John Dean book on this subject, "Conservatives Without Conscience" --havent yet...)

[ClintonTyree]

22. No, he's a sociopath.

He has no understanding of right or wrong. He's convinced that he's always right, that god has chosen him to be "the decider". The notion that he could be wrong never enters his mind. This attitude was started with Babs and 41's instilling a sense of entitlement in the 43 child. To this day he still believes that entitlement and since he can never be wrong there's no hope that he will ever change.

He's a mass murderer, a sociopathic monster that takes great joy in his perceived and real power over others. He's no different that a host of other famous serial killers only he's in a position of power that makes his actions legitimate. In HIS mind anyway, and in the minds of his sick, perverted supporters.

[Philosoraptor]

24. our first sociopath president

or at least the most sociopathic. how the fuk did it ever come to this?

[NoodleyAppendage]

40. Clinton has sociopathic tendencies, but he differs in intellect.

The difference between Clinton and Bush, both sociopathic IMHO, is that Clinton has the intelligence necessary to introspect and can on a logical level see that his behavior was wrong at times. Bush, on the other hand, is incapable of introspection and is completely oblivious to his sociopathy and actions.

In a nutshell, with Clinton there is at least the capacity for compassion; whereas, in Bush compassion is completely alien.

J

[pnwmom]

45. Clinton has sociopathic tendencies? Give me a break.

Clinton is a flawed human being who cheated on his wife and wants everyone to like him. He had an ego, but show me the politician or President who doesn't.

Bush, on the other hand, is a textbook narcissist completely devoid of empathy who expects the world to worship him. And anyone who doesn't worship him doesn't exist, at best, or should be eliminated, at worst.

And Bush is a sociopath because people who don't support him in his self-centered world view are just bugs to be squashed.

[NoodleyAppendage]

48. Cheating on your wife is a sociopathic act. Sorry to break it to you.

Cheating and lying (without cracking) is sociopathic. I know he's our hero and such, but let's not let that cloud our objectivity.

J

[mnhtnbb]

50. Not sociopathic. Indicative of narcissistic personality disorder, yes

[NoodleyAppendage]

56. O.K., fine I'll settle somewhere in the middle by saying he's Cluster B

I'll cede that he's somewhere on the Cluster B continuum and probably more towards the narcissistic end; hence, his responding to another personality disordered female (Monica - histrionic).

J

[pnwmom]

58. That's not true about Clinton either.

One of the hallmarks of a true narcissist is a complete, pervasive lack of empathy.

That describes Bush, but not Clinton.

[demigoddess]

55. no,no, If you know a person without a conscience you would know there

is a difference. cheating on your wife, though I deplore it, is very different. A lack of judgment, ego, and too much testosterone. the flaws of a leader. These things can be unlearned or given up.

But the fact of having no conscience, I think, is either a brain defect or a pychological one. Basically incurable.

[pnwmom]

59. Right. There's a huge difference. Lots of us do some bad things.

That doesn't make us all sociopaths.

[pnwmom]

57. Not everyone who does something wrong is a sociopath.

Or even lots of things wrong.

There is a difference between a sociopath and a garden variety -- for lack of a better word -- sinner.

The difference concerns the degree, the extent, and the motivation. Weak people are not the same as deliberately malevolant people.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

25. k&r

[TheCowsCameHome]

27. Key word: normal

He is anything but normal.

[WyLoochka]

28. He has a "seared conscience"

"A seared conscience is one whose warning voice has been suppressed and perverted habitually, so that eventually instead of serving as a guide, it only confirms the person in his premeditatedly evil course." Robert J Little

The term "seared conscience" was used by Paul in I Tim 4:2 - "Having their conscience seared with a hot iron."

Ironically, there has been much evangie/fundie teaching on this concept. I guess Bush paid no attention to this subject when he was going to Bible Study classes following his so-called "born again" event.

[WinkyDink]

30. You seriously need to ask? I mean, SERIOUSLY?

Was there ever a better instance of scientific observation?

[doctor_garth]

31. years of alcohol and cocaine

left little of you can call a brain, let alone a conscience. Well, how does one handle having been brought up in a cancerous, corrupt, dysfunctional family like the Bushes anyway?

[Vidar]

32. Defining characteristic of a sociopath.

[hyphenate]

33. Psychologically

I think the chimp suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Here are the signs:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

requires excessive admiration

has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Pretty much what he shows, huh? You can find much more at http://www.mentalhealth.com

There was a book a couple of years ago called "Bush on the Couch" and pukes said it wasn't valid because the psychiatrist couldn't give a correct analysis of Bush without a personal meeting. This was, obviously, before Frist did exactly that to Terry Schiavo. And I think we know enough about the chimp to make a diagnosis such as this more valid than Frist's.

[hyphenate]

35. There is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath

The simplest way to remember the major difference:

A psychopath is evil, but doesn't know the difference between right and wrong

A sociopath is evil, knows the difference between right and wrong, but doesn't give a fuck.

[Danascot]

36. Check out these excellent related threads

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2155837

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2155700

[rhiannon55]

37. I was in a relationship with a sociopath

a number of years ago, and Bush has always reminded me of that person. Once you know one, they're pretty easy to spot.

[leftofthedial]

38. he's a sociopath

no conscience

[NoodleyAppendage]

39. Cold-blooded sociopath.

Bush has demonstrated through actions that he is a cold-blooded sociopath devoid of any meaningful compassion or empathy. He is a blight upon humanity.

J

[Individualist]

41. Fratpunk Sociopath is not normal

It has no conscience.

[warrens]

47. He's a sociopath

Part of that condition is a total lack of conscience. The man is a truly sick individual.

[cassiepriam]

49. He enjoys the suffering. nt

[Lilith Velkor]

52. Normal people condone rape and torture in U.S. prisons

Conscience my ass.

[Anakin Skywalker]

60. Why Should He? He's Had a SHELTERED Life.

People like him are incapable of any empathy and other kinds of decent thoughts and feelings.

[rhiannon55]

61. I've known a number of rich kids who were sociopaths

they hated their parents for giving them too much and they hated their dependence on those parents.
Fucks with their heads, I guess.