I need some help here.

[Th1onein]

Okay, my cousin is saying that because they tortured the guys who were planning to blow up the airliners over the Pacific, we were able to save those lives in those planes.

I don't believe torture was involved, and I don't believe it was a real good plot, to begin with. Anyone have any further information?

[Warpy]

1. First, it wasn't a great plot to begin with

Second, the plot was discovered and the people taken into custody, not the other way around.

Third, torture doesn't work because any information obtained under duress is unreliable information. That means people who don't know anything or even people who do will play guessing games with their tormentors, hoping they can say something, anything to make it stop.

It's long been known this is the case, which is why governments before this evil one had no problem with strict adherence to the Geneva Conventions. They were abandoning a procedure that not only did not work, they were abandoning one that put their own military at risk from an enemy that would either fight to the death rather than be captured by a country engaged in torture or be counted upon to toruture any US soldiers who were captured simply as payback for inhumane treatment on our side.

I sincerely hope we can impeach the lot of them over this one. We are better than this, and they have put our military into greater danger worldwide by their illegal and unconstitutional abandonment of a treaty still in legal force.

[Bluebear]

4. Fourth, the plot apparently would not have worked so nobody was 'saved' nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. Not true.

The Bojinka plot was discovered when a fire broke out in one of the plotters' apartments, as the result of which a computer with details of the plan and bomb materials were discovered. Obviously this prevented the plan from being carried out. One of the plotters confessed to his involvement after being caught and tortured by the Manila police, but the plot had already been discovered and prevented. Torturing the guy had nothing to do with saving the planes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplan_Bojinka

[sandnsea]

3. Mostly police work - by a woman no less

Interesting article here. Most of the plot was uncovered without any interrogation - and what information they did get out of "tactical interrogation", they ignored which was the warnings about flying planes into buildings that "nobody could have anticipated".

http://www.prisonplanet.com/bust_and_boom.html

[izzie]

5. We will hear that torture is really good. Just wait

I even hear old guys who fought in WW2 call in on c-span and they are all for it. I guess they forgot it was one of the reasons we were in that war. Japan, Germany were good at that and so was Russia. Guess we may as well join up with those great countries.

[Monkeyman]

7. We killed the ones from Japan who did torture

Only a few but we did. Torture does not work . The ones being tortured will say and do anything they think you want to hear. Our POW's are not saying a word and that pisses me off

[Bluerthanblue]

10. and, interestingly enough, Kamakazi pilots

were held in a kind of ....'terrible?.. respect?' by the WWII vets I know, and have known.-
Even those who lived through the 'pacific theater'-

[izzie]

12. Riding 'in to the valley.' has aways been high value

We also killed many Germans for doing such things to people. Russia even in the cold war were said to have done it yet now we have Am. that seem to think it is good. Hard to understand.

[Bluerthanblue]

14. harder still

to believe that the 'people' of the US are not able to stop this runaway train.

I wonder what its gonna take.
And I'm glad my dad is dead, he'd be so distraught by the way we have fallen into such a place as this.

[izzie]

15. My dad was a old GOP person and he is spinning in his grave.

I can even recall him telling us it takes a village to raise a kid.

[Bluerthanblue]

9. any old guys i know

who TRULY fought in WWII are 100% AGAINST the use of torture, AND this war'against terra'. My father who is dead now, saw enough in WWII in Germany, that he didn't believe war was something to enter into lightly- nor fight without honoring the 'rules'.
My Dad also talked often of his Uncle, who lived out his short life in the care of my Grandfather, after having been a victim of 'mustard gas' during WWI- I'd never have known mustard gas doesn't kill you immediately, but rather painfully and distressingly, hoplessly over a period of time otherwise. (A few years in my Great Uncles case)

Those friends and relatives of my Dad, who are also WWII vets and still living, (a tiny handful now) tended to lean towards the Iraq war initially- but as soon as no WMD's were found, and anarchy, Abu Garhib, and all the 'check-point killings' of innocent Iraqi citizens started, ALL felt we needed to get out of there, and get out now.

I think those c-span callers are either arm-chair warriors, somewhat senile, or fools.

The lust for war really diminishes for those who have known it intimately and are 'fortunate' enough to grow older with the memory of it ever fresh in their minds. But that's my experience with men I know respect and 'trust'- to at least tell the truth, even if we disagree.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. We didn't torture German POWs.

Even though Hitler's Nazis, with their huge, powerful military, presented the most serious threat to the world in the entire 20th century, the Allies managed to defeat them in four years without having to torture prisoners for information. But Bush tells us that we have to set up secret prisons to torture suspected Al Qaeda members or they'll do another 9/11 on us!

[Bluerthanblue]

13. exactly- we 'played by the rules'- for the

most part. There are questions in my mind about using the atomic bomb on civillian populations- (and i DO believe it was not a mistake)- but secret prisions, the patriot act, using drone bombs to kill 'suspected' terraists, "let's just say they aren't going to bother us anymore" * said in his SOTU speech- depleted uranium, and the back door draft are all things that would never have been tolerated then.
And I suspect we agree, that what we are doing to 'suspected Al Qaeda members' pretty much guarantees that there will be many 'new' people who end up with the desire to do something on the lines of 9/11 or worse to us.

And that is something * will hold responsibility for if there is a history beyond the near future.

[helderheid]

6. That plot was foiled by the British - NOT the US. No torture involved.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

8. Ask your cousin if they think that nothing is right, or wrong, in and of

itself.

Raping a 4 year old girl?

Drowning someone?

Kidnapping?

All these things can apparently be justified by some imagined end?

Is the fact that an act is evil not reason enough never to do it?