America- Rape and torture really did happen in our name..

[converted_democrat]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

I put this together over a year ago..

edited to add this quote from Lindsey Graham-

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’ -------Quote of Sen. Lindsey Graham (R)

[mmonk]

1. Yep, but yet Americans don't seem to know or get it.

Really sad and really frustrating for people that know but are called unAmerican should they say something.

[converted_democrat]

3. That's why I posted this.. I'm tired of watching so many people deny

that it happened.. It's amazing the number of people in GD alone that still have their heads in the sand..

[Poppyseedman]

2. Yes, it happened in our name

Those who committed these horrible acts were also caught, convicted and punished in our name too!!

[converted_democrat]

4. When was that? Got a link?

on edit-

I'm tired of watching people deny it happened, and that's why I posted this.. I didn't hear about the perps being brought to justice, and I'm not talking about the Abeer story, (this was long before that) just in case that's what you're referring to.. I'd love to see a link that shows what you claim, I might be able to sleep a little better at night..

[Poppyseedman]

7. MSNBC good enough ?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9492624/

http://foi.missouri.edu/whistleblowing/judgingabughraib.html

[converted_democrat]

10. Where are the rape charges, and the proof of justice?

on edit- I don't see that anywhere in the links you gave..

[Poppyseedman]

13. You asked for proof the people who committed these crimes were punished

I gave that to you. I didn't try the case.

Proof of Justice? You're joking right?

[converted_democrat]

16. You have no proof, you have no proof that the people caught on tape

raping were punished, do you?

[mmonk]

11. Very very weak. Most of the command structure

is still in place. Until you see DOD officials behind bars, it's ongoing. Until you see this government's officials including those in the Justice department, it is ongoing. Torture is current policy whether legal or not. As long as it's policy, people especially in command, aren't being punished.

[mmonk]

5. Really? All of them?

[Poppyseedman]

8. Define "all of them"

The actual people who did the actual abuse were either punished or in prison.

When an employee steals $100,000 from their employers does the CEO go to prison?

Not defending anybody, but in the real world, that's the way it works.

[UpInArms]

14. hmmmm - even that scum Kimmitt says there are a lot of cases

unpunished

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

The news segment had been delayed by two weeks at the request of the Department of Defense and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Richard Myers, because of heavy fighting in Iraq. In the report, Dan Rather interviewed Brig. Gen Mark Kimmitt, then-deputy director of Coalition operations in Iraq. Kimmitt stated,
The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down... and if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers as well...So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here. I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few.

— Gen Mark Kimmitt


At the same time, Kimmitt said: "I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq."<15>

Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan was also interviewed, stating: "We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage."

Rather interviewed Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, a participant in the abuse, whose civilian job was as a corrections officer at a Virginia prison. Frederick stated, "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening." Frederick's video diary, sent home from Iraq, provided some of the images used in the story.

[Poppyseedman]

17. The standard you seem to be asking for is never going to happen

Prisoner abuse is a reality of war. To catch every one and bring them to justice is an impossible benchmark. We can and should be a much better job of exposing the worst blatant case and I think the military as a whole actually does try to do that.

[converted_democrat]

19. B.S.-

"To catch every one and bring them to justice is an impossible benchmark."

It's on video, the rapes I am referring to have already been caught on tape, the question is if they have been brought to justice.. You said that they were, and then gave nothing to back up your claims.

[mmonk]

24. Our current practice is illegal.

I suggest you study the situation. Not everybody in Gitmo or who was at Abu Ghraib or Bagram is charged with anything and many even haven't taken up arms in any manner against the United States nor belong to a terrorist network. Many people rounded up after 9/11 in this country were guilty of no crimes, but were abused, tortured, indefinitely detained in isolation, and after, deported and lawyers haven't even been able to find out how many and many were even US citizens. You really need to educate yourself on this issue, because America is in the process of redefining itself.

[DemforNagin]

33. Now there's a list of things I'd like to see

proof of.

Not everybody in Gitmo or who was at Abu Ghraib or Bagram is charged with anything and many even haven't taken up arms in any manner against the United States nor belong to a terrorist network.

Many people rounded up after 9/11 in this country were guilty of no crimes, but were abused, tortured, indefinitely detained in isolation, and after, deported and lawyers haven't even been able to find out how many and many were even US citizens.

Do we have anything that really shows proof of these claims? I suspect we do, since they're being discussed here as fact, so why aren't heads rolling over this atrocity??? Why are people getting away with this???

[mmonk]

38. May I suggest checking with Barbara Olshansky.

She is with the Center for Constitutional Rights and currently working on Habeus Corpus litigation for 300 detainees at Gitmo. "The Case for Impeachment" by Dave Lindorff and Barbara Olshansky from St. Martin's Press is a good read and mentions percentages (such as the Seton Hall University study which found that 55 percent of the detainees at Guantanamo are not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the US or its coalition allies). Olshansky is also the author of "Secret Trials and Executions". It was listening to her that I posted the information I gave. After 9/11, her office was swamped with calls and put her on the 9/11 roundup cases. It was listening to her speak on C-Span (Book TV) that prompted me to buy "The Case For Impeachment". Her accounts were appalling and really bother me a great deal still. I have it recorded on my DVR.

[UpInArms]

32. 'I will always hate you people'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1223358,00.html

The first Mohammed Munim al-Izmerly's family knew of his death was when his battered corpse turned up at Baghdad's morgue. Attached to the zipped-up black US body bag was a laconic note.

The US military claimed in the note that Dr Izmerly, a distinguished chemistry professor arrested after US tanks encircled his villa, had died of "brainstem compression".

Dr Izmerly's sudden death after 10 months in American custody left his family stunned, not least because three weeks earlier they had visited him in the US prison at Baghdad airport. His 23-year-old daughter, Rana, recalled that he had seemed in "good health".

The family commissioned an independent Iraqi autopsy. Its conclusion was unambiguous: Dr Izmerly had died because of a "sudden hit to the back of his head", Faik Amin Baker, the director of Baghdad hospital's forensic department, certified.

<snip>

Several prisoners have been found to have died before or during interrogation. They include Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former commander of Iraq's air defences, who died last November during interrogation at Qaim.

The original US autopsy said he had died of a heart attack. It now appears he was suffocated during interrogation when a CIA officer put him in a sleeping bag and sat on him.

Last night the family of Dr Izmerly were in little doubt he had been murdered in US custody. The reasons for his death were covered up, they believe.

...more...

So, Poppyseedman, why are you attempting to come across as such a Pollyanna and so naive? What does that gain you? Is it really important to believe that all those "bad apples" have been found and punished? Sad and disillusioned about the state of our Union and the acts that are done by any person in our names isn't comfortable, but it is real and undeniable. Until we admit the truth, we cannot change it.

(edited for typo)

[converted_democrat]

21. Where is your proof of this?

"The actual people who did the actual abuse were either punished or in prison."

Where is your proof that the people caught on tape raping were punished for it? Pretty simple question..

[EFerrari]

6. Bullsh!t. The situation is ongoing. n/t

[Poppyseedman]

9. Abu Ghraib prison is under Iraq control today

What situation are you referring to?

[converted_democrat]

12. The video and voice recordings of people, even children being raped..

That's what I'm talking about..

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

23. Yes, the ones that Rummy acknowledges the existence of, but has blocked

any release of them. Those ones.

[KoKo]

25. Those ta;pes were never released. Sy Hersh said he'd seen them and

I think people on the Judiciary Committee or Armed Services Committee like Lindsey Graham saw them...but they were considered too horrible for the public to see.

It was covered up.

[converted_democrat]

26. I'm in total agreement with you.. The other poster said that they had

been brought to justice, and I called BS.. Thus far he's been unable to prove otherwise..

[EFerrari]

15. The CIA has a WORLDWIDE rendition network. Junior

is pressing for Congress to make it legal so his @ss can't be prosecuted.

We are torturing people TODAY.

[Poppyseedman]

18. Junior? Condescending attitudes the hallmark of a small mind.

BTW, I'm not disagreeing with you.

[EFerrari]

20. Nice personal attack.

:rofl:

[Poppyseedman]

22. Unless you are my daddy and my name is Poppyseesman II

calling me Junior is a prerogative word.

You started the personal attack.

[EFerrari]

27. I think you misread my post. I call the pResident "Junior" because

he is.

Why in the world would I insult you with that term? :)

[Poppyseedman]

29. Sorry about that. I did misread your post.

Pulling foot out of mouth.

[EFerrari]

31. Happens to all of us. No worries. n/t

[converted_democrat]

28. He was calling Bush Junior, not you.. n/t

[converted_democrat]

30. Finished obfuscating the subject yet?

edited for my poor grammar..

[DemforNagin]

34. I think I've really missed something here...

We have tapes, audio and video, of US personnel raping and murdering CHILDREN???

[converted_democrat]

35. Yep, and our lawmakers have seen them, but the DOD is refusing

to release the evidence to the public even though they have been ordered to by the courts.. Go back to the link in the original post, go from there..

[converted_democrat]

36. ....

"We are torturing people TODAY."


This is going to sound like I'm a dummy, but I had assumed that it had stopped, you just made me realize that it's most likely STILL going on.. It's just sickening to think about..

[EFerrari]

37. That's why Junior is so desparate, imho. Reagan exported

torture. The SAME GUYS, with all those years of "experience", are at it AGAIN. The "great communicator" would be proud.