Sy Hersh: "They (BushCo) are in total terror it's going to come out"

[kerry-is-my-prez]

We all knew about this a months ago - but let's not forget - 99.9% of 'Merkins have no idea that this is going on. I was re-reading this artcile and that sentence jumped out at me. I think a lot of us assume that everyone keeps up like we do - they don't.

I don't even think people in the MSM believe it or that they don't really have the proof to be bringing this out yet.

I have the feeling that the MSM could be bringing this up now that Bush is going on and on about Gitmo and trying to use it as an election issue. I've been thinking "How could this guy have the NERVE to be trying to use THAT as a campaign issue."

In my opinion, this would be the last straw for a lot of people if it can be proven.

I just don't see even freepers putting up with children being raped.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/7/14/193750/666

Kids sodomized at Abu Ghraib, Pentagon has the videos - Hersh
by Gryn
Wed Jul 14, 2004 at 08:33:32 PM PDT
(From the diaries -- kos)

Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
"The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention last week. Hersh says there was "a massive amount of criminal wrongdoing that was covered up at the highest command out there, and higher."

-snip-

Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok. Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib which is 30 miles from Baghdad <...>
The women were passing messages saying "Please come and kill me, because of what's happened". Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.

It's impossible to say to yourself how do we get there? who are we? Who are these people that sent us there?

[grasswire]

1. yeah....

...someone said tonight on MSNBC that the 14 who were transferred to Gitmo will soon be telling what happened to them in the secret interrogations, and all the world will know they were tortured.

[Erika]

4. That's supposedly one reason W wants to change the law

So he and they will be excused from their atrocities.

[magellan]

12. What do you think? Is that the main reason?

Do you think the 14 Kuwaitis are the main reason Bush** is making this sudden belligerent, condescending push for a new interpretation of Article 3?

I wonder if something else isn't cooking in the int'l community. The silence in response to NATO's call for nations to commit new ground troops to Afghanistan is resounding....

[Imagevision]

136. I agree, it's the reason Bush needs to change Geneva rules!

[bobthedrummer]

148. Very valid point. n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

5. Wouldn't these people also be talking to the children too?

It's a known fact everywhere but here that all this is going on.

[Erika]

8. It is coming out. Have faith

The country is now just waking up from W imposed fear and "hate the muslim".

[SmokingJacket]

151. I hope you're right, but...

I've heard more "hate the Muslim" crap lately than since 9-11 -- and then it was hysterical and almost understandable. Now it's calm, creepy, and calculated.

I don't know what's going on with people.

[Booster]

17. I remember when members of Congress viewed the pictures and

the tapes and this was mentioned, probably by Mr. Hersh, right after that. Does anyone know if members of Congress are bound to secrecy in a case such as this? If they aren't they are as much to blame for this as anyone in keeping it from Americans.

[civildisoBDence]

88. Lindsey Graham hinted at this kind of thing being on tape

The more craven the BushHogs get, the more likely that principled Republicans will jump ship. If child molestation was really taped, and we have the tapes, Bush is finished.

Newsprism

[SPKrazy]

164. If We Have Them

we need to use them

not for political hay (that's a by product)

but for public awareness of the insanity that has become our country if we are (as an administration, which really isn't we) allowing or encouraging this!

It is just sickening

[Chomskyite]

42. I dont see how

Unless they are released, there's really no way they'd have access to the press, right? Maybe you know something I don't. Does the Red Cross get to talk to them?

[converted_democrat]

45. Sy has talked about it in public on several occasions.. The last time

that I can "remember" was the Daily Show w/ John Stewart. I did a compilation thread almost a year ago of all the threads and articles about the issue. I'll go see if I can find the thread, I know I did it in GD. It was a hot topic here at DU, and then no one picked it up in the MSM. I think much of the evidence is in with the last set of torture pics and videos that the DOD is refusing to hand over, even though they've been court ordered on several occasions to do so. Sy went as far as saying he had evidence too, but I have no way of knowing what he has.

edited for clarity

on second edit- The congress critters have seen the evidence.. They were invited to watch it, and many became sick after doing so.. Lindsey Graham (Sen.) spoke about his reaction in public, and he said it made him sick.. Many members of the Senate and Congress have seen it. Google for Graham's reaction, it made him as well as many others sick.. (Many couldn't watch all of it, it was soooo bad.) (Kind of strange that Graham was on top of that back then, and him and McCain are leading the charge now, kind of makes you go hhmmmm, maybe the OP is onto something.)

[tblue37]

51. If they saw such things and have not come out in the open

loud and clear about them, but have continued, with only minor resistance, to support all or most of BushCo's agenda just because he's a Republican, then they are just as bad as BushCo.

And don't forget, Democratic members of the House and Senhate would have seen the same things the Republican members did. If they saw such things and are not screaming about them out in public, they are deeply, deeply culpable!

[converted_democrat]

54. Whoops.. Post #52 was meant for you.. n/t

[libhill]

110. Fire them all

these ass hats work for us. WE need to sweep the fucking dirt out of Congress and start all over. And Americans have a right to know what our tax money is going to support -

[bdamomma]

143. this is long overdue, we have to get these thugs apprehended and escorted

out.

[chill_wind]

118. Exactly right. n/t

[converted_democrat]

52. Here, both parties were invited to watch.. At the bottom of the thread is

quote Lindsey Graham said about it after watching.. The other links are all of the articles I have collected on the issue..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

[converted_democrat]

48. Here is the thread I was referring to..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

[truth2power]

74. That's what confused me about that post. Could someone clarify, please?

[jean]

79. that was on Keith's show - Jonathon Turley, Constitutional lawyer

[mod mom]

103. Does anyone have the Turley link from Countdown? My husband missed it

and I haven't found it.

[jean]

129. did you see it on the Greatest Page? Here - - -

thread on the GP:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2831357

video at Crooks and Liars:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/09/16/jonathan-turley-on-legal-implications-of-detainee-treatment-act/

[Erika]

2. Why would the world hate us and question our morality?

Thanks, W.

[WinkyDink]

19. "It's unacceptable to THINK this", remember.

[TomInTib]

3. I remember hearing that interview on NPR and telling my sweetheart

that it would never see any more light.

No matter what one would prefer to believe, men do horrible things when the vein is opened.

[Erika]

6. The light shines in surprising places

But that doesn't mean bushbots won't have their shades on.

[roamer65]

7. I am so ashamed of my country

If we don't throw the bastards out and out very soon, we are not worthy of a future.

[BeHereNow]

10. Not to worry...

Under the rule of the global elite, we have no future.
America, as we have grown up believing it to be,
no longer will exist in our lifetimes.

http://www.augustreview.com

BHN

[file83]

18. I think that America is being set up to fall. Out of the destruction will

arise a "New America" as in the "American Union" of Mexico, US, & Canada being joined together, as one nation.

[Subdivisions]

21. Don't even think that! That is unthinkable!

[bdamomma]

144. why not think about it? it is someone's opinion and they

have that right (if our right "to think" still exists) should be spoken.
You do not have to agree with the person comment but isn't this what free speech should be????

[grasswire]

22. that's an interesting thought

The "disaster plan" is probably already written and the spoils divided in advance. It's called "disaster capitalism" and the ghouls profit from the chaos. More chaos = more profit.

[FormerDem06]

130. The scary thing is that Reagan and Clinton wrote a lot of the unsigned

Executive Orders that could turn us into a police state ASAP. It's almost like the President (regardless of party) is doing the bidding of someone else in this matter.

WHY would Clinton sign NAFTA when it's main effect was the destruction of the American Middle class and the breaking of most Unions within 20 years of it's signing? I mean we are party of the people and the worker right?

[Tellurian]

153. Clinton did not sign many ex orders...just 2 that I know of..

Your boy Bush is the signing junkie thats signed more executive orders
than in the history of all the presidents combined..

Also, your supervisor called and "You're FIRED"
because your believability quotient is seriously delinquent.

[bobthedrummer]

146. Yep, some of us were discussing this years ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=133055#top

[Patchuli]

121. You forgot your *sarcasm* emoticon...

You can feel that way if you like. I refuse to accept that. This country has done a lot of good things in this world and I don't think that has all been wiped out because of W. I feel that the rest of the world feels sorry for us and knows that what this gubmint has done is not the wishes of We the People.

[GetTheRightVote]

9. Our representatives better not let this happen or we look very bad

in the eyes of the world. WE must punish all evil actions and individuals related to them.

:kick:

[Supersedeas]

156. looks like the Pubbies are sticking to the Party line

[napi21]

11. You know, in a way, I want this to hit MSM and rid us of this evil

Shrub Empire, but there's another part of me that doesn't want it ever known because I'm so ashamed of what this Admin. had made the image of America into. Osama, and Saddam, and Achmadinijad aren't good guys, but they're being true to their image, Shrub has burried OUR image in the mud!

I was talking to my son tonight. He's in the Navy and stationed in Sicily. The conversation turned to Shrub, and HE told ME "Don't worry, he won't be around long. The Dems will take over the majority in Nov. and they'll impeach him! What he has done to the US injust 6 years is simply unbelievable!" Now,my son has never been a political person, and he hated BC, but wouldn't say anything against himbecause as he put it "He's my Commander in Chief"! I must sayI am really surprised how much he detests this admin. and I no longer hear "He's my CIF" either!

I told him I sure hoped he was right because I'm really worried about this election. He hs lots of contacts in the US, and he said "Don't worry. There'sway too many people who recognize what he's done, and they want the whole corrupt crowd GONE!

I SURE HOPE HE'S RIGHT!

[calimary]

13. I do, too. I think it's probably the ONLY thing that will jolt some of

the backwash to the point that even they can't stand behind this anymore.

I think we need to see this. Wasn't it gratuitous here who once uttered what's become one of my favorite quotes? Something along the lines of - "Those photos are mine. I paid for them. I want to see what I got for my money. My tax dollars paid for this. Let me see what I got for my money." I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it. And I DO want to see what I got for my money. I want to see it all. And I want everybody else to see it, too. So we ALL know what we got for our money.

[roamer65]

15. If this this election is perceived as stolen...

it will be the beginning of the end of the republic. Google "Hartford Convention 1814" for a likely scenario. Secession is an option of last resort, but an option.

[HeeBGBz]

57. The States could dissolve like the Soviet Union

Wouldn't that be fitting? In a dark demented futuristic kind of bad yin-yanging?

I wish everyone would give everyone else a big hug and make it go away. I will stay alert and on the ball. You can count on me, yesserie.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

25. They already all know - we're the only country that doesn't

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

27. It's all over the UK and in the Arab countries

n/t

[longship]

14. I have only one response

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Oh my god! What are we doing?
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

And now this insane Chimp wants to abrogate and redefine an international treaty on torture of prisoners *RETROACTIVELY* in a blatant attempt to escape criminal indictment for what he has done.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Please!!!! Somebody!!! Report this to the world so that we can end it in November at the ballot box.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[alittlelark]

16. What longship said.....

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[magellan]

26. The world already knows

It's America that doesn't. Perhaps the 'liberal media' is staying quiet about it because the material is considered too disturbing for our beautiful minds?

:sarcasm:

:cry: :cry:

[lisainmilo]

36. Yep.....We have Hitler in the WH!

Check out this video.....more war crimes...peoples faces, teeth burned beyond recognition, bodies left intact with experimental microwave weapons!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13129.htm
If you watch video, shows reporter asking Rumsfeld about weapons use

[magellan]

39. God

This was just mentioned in an article last week, saying the US would test microwave weapons on Americans in crowd control situations. So it's apparent they've been playing with them elsewhere already.

Watched the whole thing. I can't believe how far we've sunk as a nation under this hateful regime.

[Imagevision]

158. Bush probably invited Gannon to the White House to view the tapes.

[catnhatnh]

20. That video is all that it takes....

to bring the entire house of cards crashing down.Over half the voters in this country are women and damn few women will sit still for a child rape video.So most women and over half of the men and our new "long national nightmare" will end.Will it hurt-yep, like the worst boil you've ever had lanced-but in the end real self-awareness and healing and a slow climb back into the world of respectable nations cannot start until then....

[Odin2005]

162. I think you are underestimating the bigotry of the average American.

Those kids are "rag-heads," not real people. you have to be a God-fearing Christian to be a real person.

:sarcasm:

[Nevernose]

23. If he has video, why isn't it on the Internet? FORCE them to cover it.

With all due respect to Seymour...

[kerry-is-my-prez]

37. I don't know why the NY Times hasn't printed it - do they not have proof?

n/t

[Subdivisions]

24. Why would they have the videos and why would they not destroy them?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

28. check out all of the stories about this on google - lots from the uk

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLJ%2CGGLJ%3A2006-19%2CGGLJ%3Aen&q=guantanamo+children+raped&btnG=Search

[barbtries]

62. another link

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article6492.htm
video and transcript of hersh's speech to the ACLU - i'm listening right now, and he makes excellent points. specifically regarding how we as people require honesty and integrity in our relationships, and as a people, we have somehow consented to simply go without.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

29. By us talking about it here and at Kos - it might get picked up

Kos has been talking about this too.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. It's too bad we have to keep on forcing the media to do their jobs.

n/t

[Spiffarino]

33. Big media is a lot like the Bush family

They take care of those who make them the biggest profits and increase their power. It is too bad, but we have to be the media because traditional media is dead. It's nothing but spin for profit.

[babylonsister]

31. From July. Why did it take so long? nt

[wiggs]

155. July 04! nt

[Spiffarino]

32. Nobody wants to see this, but it must come out

Even unbearable truths must be known for a democracy to work as designed. The alternative to knowledge is tyranny. That's why Bush and his henchmen are so keen to keep even the smallest piece of information under tight control. They despise democracy and seek its destruction.

As with Germany in 1945, America has to face the real truth about what its government is doing in its name. Then the healing can begin.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

34. one of the kids committed suicide before the attorney could get to him

that was on c-span (book tv).

[mmonk]

49. You must be speaking of Barbara Olshansky

and the detainee at Camp Iguana at Gitmo.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

35. I'm going to make it a campaign to get this out.....

I feel like I owe it to these kids and these people.

[johnnydrama]

38. yup

I absolutely believe the ridiculous statements the preznit is saying, like if Congress doesn't pass what he wants, he'll stop the program alltogether is to put pressure on them to pass this fast.

These crimes have already been committed.

He's not asking to change the law, because that would admit past guilt.

He's asking them to interpret the laws differently so no crime ever took place.

It's disgusting, and everything should be done to stop him.

[Ice4Clark]

41. In May 2004 ALL 100 senators were given the opportunity

to view the photographs and videos.

If they bothered to show up, then they know how bad it was/is. The pentagon seems to be the keeper of all of this evidence per the article at the link below.

STORY LINK

snip:

Senators will not be allowed to make copies of the images, and congressional staff members will not be allowed in the room, the aide said.

Under this scenario, the Senate will never formally take possession of the material.

That will leave it to the Bush administration to decide whether the images will be released to the public.

Government sources have said there are 200 to 300 more photographs and several digital video clips detailing abuse.

[katinmn]

122. What sick f**** in the Senate knew this and did nothing??

They are no better than Bushitler. Enablers. Complicit.

[SquireJons]

40. Without evidence, what can we do?

How did Hersh get to see the video's, pictures and hear the audio files? Why hasn't the evidence been made public? As much as I hate the current misadministration, I have doubts about these allegations. The one credible story I did read about involved a boy of 15 or 16 being raped by an Iraqi guard. That's bad but not the same as the systematic rape of up to 100 teenagers by US forces. Detention and isolation leads to abuse pretty much everywhere. When young teens are incarcerated here in the US, there is a very high likelihood of them being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, it's part of human nature.

I think this story is a red herring and will continue to think that until someone releases evidence. John Warner is a Senator from my state and for the most part I respect him (even though he is a republican). He helped work out a compromise on the pictures and videos whereby each member of congress was allowed to view the material, including the pictures and videos that were not released to the public. Presumably, this includes the material that Hersh saw. Each member of congress saw this stuff and no one went to the press. Why? Either because the evidence did not support the accusations, or because they are not allowed to go public with what they saw. Given the nature of congress, what are the chances of Kennedy or Pelosi watching videos of boys being sodomized and not going to the press about it? Not very likely in my opinion.

[Disturbed]

43. "what are the chances"?

They members of Congress would be indicted if they revealed what they saw. They will not throw away their career for that.

This Regime is guilty of many crimes, incl. War Crimes. This is why Busholini is DEMANDING the revision of the Geneva Conventions and the legalization of Secrect Prisons and Warentless Spying.

[jazzjunkysue]

70. Well, this explains everything, doesn't it? No oversight.

We need to send these links to our bloggers and our own senators and start making it public knowledge and vote them all out.

[SquireJons]

116. I don't know

You have hundreds of members of congress. What are the chances of just one of them saying "this is wrong and I don't care about the personal consequences." If we're talking about child rape here, I'd say the chances are pretty high. They constantly leak information about things that are not important, so why not this? Plus, any such congress person would know that they would have the backing of the public on this issue. No one, not even rummy or uncle dick could actually stand up and defend such actions. They would have to sit and grouse. I think the pictures that congress saw showed lots of dead people and prisoners being humiliated and tortured. More of what we already saw. But the rape of women and children? I'll have to see it to believe it... or at least have an official source back such allegations.

[converted_democrat]

46. Our congress members and Senate were asked to watch it, and many did.

Lindsey Graham made several public statements on the issue.. Many of the congress critters had to stop watching because they got sick.. Graham made several public statements about it, and how sick and wrong it was.. Go google it for yourself. The evidence is out there, our congress members have seen it..

[SquireJons]

114. Yes, I have seen these stories

But I yet to read anything other than Hersh's article that details actual accounts of children being raped. It does seem clear that family members of high profile detainees have been targeted for abuse, things like the story of the boy who was driven naked through Baghdad and smeared with mud, then shown to his father to get the man to talk. That is bad, that is torture... but it's not rape. While individual accounts of sexual assault have undoubtedly occurred, I have yet to see evidence of a systematic program involving rape of detainees. We have Hersh's accusations... and nothing else. The comments by Graham are serious, but refer only to known cases. That some members of congress turned away from the pictures and videos is understandable. They showed lots of corpses, and abuse during interrogations, or 'setting the right conditions for interrogation.' But that's not what is being alleged. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to defend our policies or any one in the administration or military. Torture is wrong... always, and particularly disturbing when adopted as official government policy and used against women and children.

But the accusations are that children have been systematically sexually assaulted by US officials while in US custody. To date we have one case involving a non US official and rumorers of women passing notes asking to be killed (something that sounds a lot like propaganda to me). That's it. There needs to be more before we start throwing around such serious allegations. When they turn out to be wrong, it undermines the whole anti war movement, in that the administration will use it as a pretext to move against their critics.

[converted_democrat]

126. BS-

"The comments by Graham are serious, but refer only to known cases."

How do you figure that? The cases he was referring to were what he and others were watching on tape, and he confirms that rape and murder occur.. How are those known cases? (To my knowledge the only rape story that is known is the Abeer story, and that was years after these incidents happened.) Oh, and BTW, the Abeer story is a child rape story. Besides that Sy has been with the New Yorker for longer than I've been alive, and he enjoys on of the best reps. in journalism today.. Why is it so important to you to be such a pollyanna about this? Go look at the links I gave you in the post below.. There are several articles (something like 10 or so) and many of them back up the allegations made here, and they weren't written by Sy.. I guess I don't understand what good putting your head in the sand..

on edit- Just read your post again..Rape and murder occurred, but it's okay because it might not have been systematic? Sickening...

[SquireJons]

140. I never said it was ok

But I can make a distinction between systematic abuse, like the torture of detainees which has been documented and shown to have occurred at multiple locations over a sustained period of time, and isolated sexual abuse which seems to have been restricted to one prison, and a very small number of incidents. My main point was that before we go ringing the air raid shelter, there had better be some proof of these allegations. Otherwise we hand Rove a huge propaganda opportunity. It's interesting to me that no one has come forward and made any allegations or filed any charges. Thousands of detainees have been released. Many have claimed to have been tortured. None claimed to have been raped. Lets keep or eyes focused on things that actually happened or at least things that can be verified. These child rape stories have been circulating for over two years and I have yet to see any meat on the bones. I really find it hard to believe that hundreds of congress persons viewed images of child rape and said nothing. I just don't believe it. So how come nobody else has seen what Hersh describes? How come Hersh didn't have copies of the pictures himself? It all smacks of sensationalism to me, until someone comes forward with proof, which no one has. Yet.

[converted_democrat]

141. Why do you think they are with holding the last round of evidence and

pics? We have seen some really bad stuff come out, yet this is so bad they won't release it no matter how many times the court demands that they do? If it isn't what Sy claims, and what Graham claims, why don't they release the evidence and show us? Rummy said himself that it was "much worse" than anyone imagined, and that it was "much worse" than anything that the public had been privy to, and the same evidence made congress critters sick after watching it.. Why are the DOD trying to suppress the evidence? Why won't they release it, even after they've been ordered by court order? Graham himself mentions rape, and murder, I believe him.. YOu don't believe him, why? Do you think he made it up? I don't..

I find it sick and sad to see such a "progressive" view on this site.. But it MIGHT not have been systematic, so it must me okay.. How sick.. We have a repuke Sen. telling us that he witnessed rape, and you want to roll over like nothing happened.. Sick.. Sad.. Pathetic..

[converted_democrat]

47. Here look at this- Lindsey Graham confirmed rape..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

[mmonk]

44. They HAVE put up with it. They've had horrible pictures

for awhile now and they don't do anything about it. Our government officials are impotent and morally bankrupt.

[lala_rawraw]

50. yup... i cannot even cover this... i tried, but

i lost my mind and had nightmares, could not function for weeks... i cannot even write about it, but i tried:((

[glitch]

69. hug nt

[jazzjunkysue]

71. Laura, you have to. No one else will.

[bobbolink]

78. Did you read what happened to her? People can only do what they can do.

I'm grateful for all that she has done, and understand things she can't do.

It's up to the rest of us to contact wire editors, etc.

*WE* can make noise over this.

[jazzjunkysue]

80. What happened to her? I go to Rawstory alot. It's doing well.

They cover other stories, why not this?

[bobbolink]

82. Why not??

Did you read the post you replied to??

She explained clearly why not.

People can only do what they can do.

Some things are beyond us.

[jazzjunkysue]

86. Her job is reporting news, right? If not, I'll get my news elsewhere.

[bobbolink]

93. How....kind of you.

Read her post before you JUDGE!

Then, if you still feel like posting the same criticism, find a heart.

[bobbolink]

84. Here. I'm reposting her words. Please hear what she is saying!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2148785&mesg_id=2149716

[bobbolink]

72. Here's to you, lala-- I can understand.

:pals:

Thank you for trying. I appreciate it. :hug:

[bobbolink]

76. This is the "tectonic plates shift" Hersh spoke about before, if I

remember correctly.

If we only had a functioning media....

Here's one thing to do... find the story on this, then call your local paper and talk with the "wire editor". They are the ones who get stories from the wire services and get them into the paper.

I did this with the Downing Street Minutes, with the Denver Post, and the wire editor got a good article in the next day.

It can work. Give it a try.

[calimary]

104. Good work! Yes, we have to be our own media at this point.

The powers that be still live in bush's back pocket. They don't show much of a sign of being ready to move out just yet.

I'm at least gratified to see that the AP's Terrence Hunt (on the print side) was in there on the White House grounds yesterday, asking the asshole a pointed question. I guess he does all the heavy lifting for my old stomping grounds. Mark Smith, the radio network's fair-haired boy, never seems to do squat except sit toward the back and watch everybody else ask questions. He doesn't even ask a powder-puff one. He just sits there! And while I worked there, he was the guy who almost always got the "merit raises" every year. For meritorious - WHAT??? Never understood that one.

[bobbolink]

137. Calling all wire editors... !!! ^_^

I'm not familiar with Terrence Hunt--glad to know there's another name of a "good guy". They are so few, they stick out. :) Wish I could have seen him delivering the pointed questions. Just so I can cheer for him. :bounce: :hi:

[CoffeeCat]

92. lala...I'm so sorry...

It sounds like you were deeply affected by this subject.

I hope it's ok to ask for a clarification. I don't want to
appear insensitive, in light of you mentioning how painful this is.

Respond if you feel comfortable, and I surely will understand if
you can't. Hugs to you.

My questions are:
Are you saying that you saw the awful non-published Abu Graib photos
and that you couldn't write about it, because the subject matter
was so upsetting? Or are you saying that you wanted to cover what
you saw, but someone prevented you from covering it?

Thanks for reading lala, if you got through this. Take gentle care....

[SPKrazy]

157. The Horror

that line from Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now goes through my mind when I read about this stuff.

i couldn't write about it either i don't think

Sy Hersh can, i don't know how

[bedazzled]

53. i told my "christian" repug neighbor they were raping children over there

over a year ago, and asked her what she thought jesus would think about that.

she said she had no problem with it. they would do that to us if they came over here.

it's impossible to argue with such idiocy...

[leftofthedial]

55. "don't see even freepers putting up with children being raped"

the freepers I know would put up with anything. ANYTHING. There is no abomination that can't--and won't--be spun by the demagogues of decadence in the radical right.

These jackasses have perverted the entire notion of "reality." A little pedophile sodomy is nothing. Especially when it's perpetrated against brown-skinned future "Islamofascists."


It is incomprehensible that there is even debate on this issue. The monsters in power have exposed themselves as enemies of humanity.

[indepat]

56. War is hell and tens of millions of Amerikans will trust W to do whatever

is necessary in his reichous judgment to kept us safe and strong even if kids must be sodomized.

[Supersedeas]

139. exporting Texan Publican values?

[seemslikeadream]

58. America can you smell the burning flesh, see the trains rolling by?

Wake up! Do you want to be remembered as just standing by, letting it happen?

Survivor Roman Kent in English:

"How can one document the smell of burning flesh which filled the air? How can one describe the living skeletons, still alive, just skin and bones?"

[calimary]

111. Unfortunately that is our legacy now. We have lost the moral high

ground. Just completely lost it. And whether the Pentagon keeps this locked up or not, people will know. The women crying outside Abu Ghraib will know, and they'll talk about it. And those who hear them - THEY, in turn, will talk about it. And the anger and rage against us will fester. And we won't have anything to fall back on. I remember these stories. When they come out again (hopefully they do finally see the light of day), there will be millions of Americans gasping in horror - "we just didn't know." I think there's a Nance Greggs piece on this here. "We just didn't know!" And that's no excuse. Because we DID know. Sticking your head in the sand pretending something doesn't exist or will go away does not make it so. It only postpones the agony. And I will watch. And I will point out, where I can, that YES - you DID know. You just didn't want to deal with it, or do anything to stop it. You drank the Kool-aid, and then begged for more.

I have a VERY deep sense of shame about my former profession. I am ashamed of my fellow journalists. Just ashamed. They're nothing but lapdogs. Which equates to nothing AT ALL.

[seemslikeadream]

115. indeed, they wanted not to know.

http://www.kimel.net/germans.html

In my opinion, none of these statements is false, but one other must be added to complete the picture: in spite of the varied possibilities for information, most Germans did not know because they didn't want to know. Because, indeed, they wanted not to know. It is certainly true that State terrorism is a very strong weapon, very difficult to resist. But it is also true that the German people, as a whole, did not even try to resist. In Hitler's Germany a particular code was widespread: those who knew did not talk; those who did not know did not asked questions; those who did not asked questions received no answers. In this way the typical German citizen won and defended his ignorance, which seemed to him sufficient justification of his adherence to Nazism. Shutting his mouth, his eyes and hears, an accomplice too the things taking place in front of his very door.



Song Of Choice
Early every year, seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard, they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before the leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Hold your mouth, how can you know?
The seeds you cannot see may not be there
The seeds you cannot hear may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow higher, they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Everyday another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognize a warning?

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and then you know
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry, you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do
If the fascist's party slowly climbing back
It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It will soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth, they're never there
And if it happens here, they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Segger

[seemslikeadream]

59. U.S. Vice-President Dick Cheney

"On this day in 1945, inside a prison for the innocent, liberators arrived and looked into the faces of thousands near death."


Innocent little children, Dickie? Iraq, Dickie? Sound familiar, Dickie?

[seemslikeadream]

60. United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan

"The evil that destroyed 6 million Jews and others in those camps is one that still threatens all of us today. Every generation must be on its guard to make sure that such things never happen again."

I guess we let our guard down, huh?

[glitch]

68. He gets it. I hope a lot of other world leaders get it too. nt

[seemslikeadream]

61. Paul Wolfowitz

"Never again and never forget."




Ooopsy Paul, I guess someone forgot, huh?


on edit:

Maybe he didn't meant that for all nationalities

[librechik]

63. But it NEVER happened at Gitmo, so what's the problem?

According to Tony Blankley on McLaughlin Report. Watch for this talking point

[SaveOurDemocracy]

64. As one of the 99.9% of 'Merkins who...

...hadn't heard this claim, I was horrified, sick to my stomach at the thought of this taking place, and being covered up. I had to walk away for awhile because i felt so devastated.

I detest BushCo. I detest their agenda. I detest their lies and manipulations. I detest their betrayal to our Country and Constitution. I detest their arrogance that has cost us our good-standing, and good-will, throughout the world. I believe they are greedy, evil, self-serving thugs. They repel me ... and they frighten me. I would not mourn the untimely passing of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, or any of their neocon friends. I would, instead, feel a great sense of relief ... one less lunatic at the helm.

I tell you all this because I refuse to accept lies, half-truths, or twisted facts from ANYONE. I love the internet because I can research what I'm being told, I can verify what is fact, I can chase links and uncover truths for myself. When I read something as mind-numbing as ... "Seymour Hersh says the US government has videotapes of boys being sodomized at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. "The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking," the reporter told an ACLU convention..." ... I need to find some supporting data.

I am cynical enough that I don't single-source anything. I am also not naive. I know that war can bring out the absolute worst in human beings. I remember Vietnam and the Mai Lai massacre ... and so much more.

I was unable to find any independent verification of this claim ... in fact, Sy Hersh causes me to doubt his remarks, with his own words. I'm not saying that it never happened ... I'm just saying I won't embrace it as truth until I see some real evidence. I think taking one man's unsupported claim, and proclaiming it as fact, casts doubt on us as a community ... and makes it easy for those who wish to dismiss us.


http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/

...There are two Hershes, really. Seymour M. is the byline. He navigates readers through the byzantine world of America’s overlapping national-security bureaucracies, and his stories form what Hersh has taken to calling an “alternative history” of the Bush administration since September 11, 2001.


Then there’s Sy. He’s the public speaker, the pundit. On the podium, Sy is willing to tell a story that’s not quite right, in order to convey a Larger Truth. “Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people,” Hersh told me. “I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say.”...

and then this ... which addresses the speech he made and events following:

Occasionally, Hersh’s half-confirmed spoken accounts of key events in the Iraq War do get significantly revised when they make their way into print. Last July, not too long after the Abu Ghraib story broke, Hersh spoke to the annual membership conference of the American Civil Liberties Union. He stood before the crowd and in mid-speech appeared to talk to himself. “Debating about it,” he muttered, then paused. “Um.” Clucked his tongue. “Some of the worst things that happened that you don’t know about. Okay? Videos,” he said. “And basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys, children, in cases that have been recorded, the boys were sodomized, with the cameras rolling, and the worst above all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking. That your government has. They’re in total terror it’s going to come out.”



What Hersh said wasn’t entirely correct. His book Chain of Command would deliver the authoritative Seymour M. version: “An attorney involved in the case told me in July 2004 that one of the witness statements he had read described the rape of a boy by a foreign contract employee who served as an interpreter at Abu Ghraib,” Hersh wrote. “In the statement, which had not been made public, the lawyer told me, a prisoner stated that he was a witness to the rape, and that a woman was taking pictures.”



Horrifying stuff. But key details were different from the impression Hersh gave to the ACLU crowd. And the Sy version raced halfway across the Internet before Seymour M. could get his boots on.



Many who blogged the revelation believed that Hersh was talking about multiple rapes committed by American soldiers. Nearly everyone took it for granted that Hersh had seen the videotapes himself because he’d described their horrifying soundtrack. And everyone did assume that there were in fact videotapes, which there may not be. (“Was it a video camera or a digital camera? Nobody was quite sure,” Hersh told students at Tufts later in the year.) The speech was so widely blogged that the ACLU says Hersh asked it to remove part of the video—including the sodomy allegation—from the organization’s Website, which it proceeded to do.



That was Hersh’s first encounter with streaming online video, something that makes a spoken remark as replicable and as easy to distribute as the written word. He’d never heard of it before. “I actually didn’t quite say what I wanted to say correctly,” Hersh now says. “It wasn’t that inaccurate, but it was misstated. The next thing I know, it was all over the blogs. And I just realized then, the power of—and so you have to try and be more careful.”

[Wednesdays]

98. That, folks, will be the Freepers' response: destroy the messenger

Never mind that Lindsay Graham has seen the tapes and was sickened by them...Sy Hersh is one of them librul media folk, and so there's nothing there.

One more time, link to the thread that shows Graham and others have seen the tapes too:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

[countryjake]

123. Why didn't you search in the place where the story broke?

That screaming was mentioned the very first night that anyone in this country heard anything at all about the atrocities committed in our name at Abu Ghraib, long before Hersh was giving speeches about it or writing about it, for that matter. Also mentioned was videotape, sent home by at least one soldier, before his tour was over. This is information coming directly from the U.S. Army, no matter how much you'd like to claim that Seymour Hersh is blowing things out of proportion or, as implied by the article you've linked, copied, and quoted here, actually lying about the matter!

I suggest that your research capabilities seem to be severely lacking and that the single source which you've cited is simply bloviating about how much they detest the esteemed Seymour Hersh and worse yet, condemning his continual attempts at exposing and bringing the truth to the people of this country.

Every single person who heard the story the night Sixty Minutes broke it, in fact, became a part of "the community" who is aware of just how low this country will go in both perpetrating and covering-up inhumane savagery done in our name. Those who continue to express disbelief or downplay what is seen as sickening by most are merely condoning barbarism, but for the few who truly are simply ignorant or naive.


Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed
60 Minutes II Has Exclusive Report On Alleged Mistreatment
April 28, 2004
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

~snip~

Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."

There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten.

"It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation," says (Brig. Gen. Mark) Kimmitt.

[Downtown Hound]

65. One thing though

I think freepers will find a way to explain it away as an "isolated incident" or whatever. Many children have died in this war, and that hasn't seemed to bother their conscience one bit.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

77. Stick with the facts we can prove...

I agree there are lot's of bad things that happened/are happening. Why not stick with THOSE facts?


It's kind of like the 'Path to 911' ... the factual story, on it's own, is dramatically gut-wrenching enough. THAT'S what lends the 'LIE' to the claim of the need to 'dramatize' parts. It's why there's no denying they had an agenda.


I think it's extremely important that we maintain OUR credibility ... or we devalue ourselves.

[Fovea]

105. Remember It was no worse than a Skull and Bones

hazing.

That is the Repug official line.

[terrya]

66. I can only hope that someone in the United States Government...

who has even a shred, a particle of a conscience...who has access to those videos....would release them to the media.

I know that's a forlorn hope in THIS government.

But that WOULD be the final straw. If there are people who would STILL support this government in its immoral war..then there's no hope for this country. None.

Seymour Hersh is above reproach as a journalist. I absolutely believe him. And that's what's so sickening, so horrific about all of this. That it's true.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

81. No One is above reproach...

... and it's dangerous to think that way!

see my post above ... or just go directly to the link: http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11... /

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

67. bookmark-read tonight.

[jazzjunkysue]

73. I had heard rumors but didn't know there was video, and the senate had

seen it. I also didn't know Hersch was speaking out.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

83. Please tell me ...

... how do you know there IS a video?

[ReadTomPaine]

87. Members of the Senate have seen and commented on it..

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’ -------Quote of Sen. Lindsey Graham (R)

From this link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

..mentioned upthread.

[countryjake]

124. In Washington, members of Congress viewed fresh photos and videos

of Iraqi prisoner abuse on Wednesday, and said they included disturbing images of torture and humiliation. ~ May 13, 2004 ~

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617228.shtml

[Catherine Vincent]

75. I don't think it will. The Bush cabal will do whatever they have to do

to cover this up. Remember the Franklin Coverup?

[dkofos]

85. Must be why rummy makes so many trips to Iraq.

bUSH too.

[MasonJar]

89. Is Lindsay Graham supposed to be one of the principled Pugs?

I saw him say on C-Span that the American people deserved to see the tapes. Then after he personally viewed them, he totally backed off. Also he is one of the phonies who made an agreement with the Dems and then backpedaled after the Dems kept their part of the bargain. Neither represents principles in my book.

[MasonJar]

90. Thank God for journalists like Hersh; they are few in number.

[CoffeeCat]

91. If Congress members SAW crimes...

...on those tapes--then why weren't the perpetrators of those
crimes punished?

I don't get this.

We saw Lindy England and that Charles dude go through trials. There were
other crimes and our government has witnessed them. Yet, they do nothing.

That doesn't even make sense.

It appears that they only prosecuted those crimes that Americans saw. They
prosecuted to temper outrage. They didn't prosecute other crimes that
were committed with VIDEOTAPE evidence--to keep these crimes hidden.

That's so revolting. Where are our Congress members who have seen these
tapes and why didn't they demand prosecution for the crimes they witnessed????

:mad:

[FourScore]

94. I don't really understand

why this is being brought up again. I remember when all of this came out. I was SO hopeful the release of all the videos and photos would disclose the horrors of this administration. Didn't happen. Well, then I thought maybe someone would leak the videos. Didn't happen. Okay. Then I thought Sy Hersch would write an article about it. Also didn't happen. What did happen is that Sy Hersch backtracked (which I found greatly disappointing because I really admire the man):

"I actually didn’t quite say what I wanted to say correctly...it wasn’t that inaccurate, but it was misstated. The next thing I know, it was all over the blogs. And I just realized then, the power of—and so you have to try and be more careful."

http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11719/index.html

"In his book, Chain of Command, he wrote that one of the witness statements he had read described the rape of a boy by a foreign contract interpreter at Abu Ghraib, during which a woman took pictures."

http://www.answers.com/topic/seymour-hersh

I don't want to go down this road again unless someone finally provides some evidence of these allegations.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

95. There are people on both sides who...

...only hear what suits them.


I also tried to point out, in my initial post above, that Sy Hersh later 'qualified' the claims he made in his speech to the ACLU. I posted his statements ... and the link. It was pretty much ignored.


People will believe what they choose to believe ...I just want the truth.

[FourScore]

96. Yep.

I was pretty disappointed in Sy Hersch that time. I still think the world of him, but I think people need to understand that this is a dead-end.

[mistertrickster]

97. Dittos and more dittos. Sy Hersch making allegations is nothing.

They got nothing.

If Hersch can't get this the original evidence out in the open, then there's no point in talking about it.

It's just "allegations" that can be easily dismissed.

I totally believe everything he's saying of course . . . it's just that we need the proof or the media will continue to ignore it.

[Wednesdays]

99. One MORE time...

Read.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4229732

On edit: "Dittos"...hmm, I seem to have heard that phrase before...some radio program, I think.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

101. I saw your response...

... and I did go look at the links. I saw nothing that 'I could take to the bank'



If the Senate did, indeed, view these tapes ... and they do show American soldiers, either directly raping and sodomizing boys, children, women, or allowing Iraqui guards to do so ... and they (Senators) remained quiet ... then they are ALL hideous cowards and, in my mind, are in collusion and are all traitors.

[FourScore]

102. I remember all of this.

I'm just saying, if the actual videos and tapes don't come out in the open, then nothing is going to happen. I no longer believe that they will. Maybe they do exist. Maybe they don't.

I have grown weary of the "gottcha'" posts. You know the ones:
Karl Rove leaked and to be indicted
Dick Cheney to be indicted on conspiracy
Video evidence of child rape and tortue
Proof of election fraud

Nobody's listening except for those us on the same side. The general public is SO in the dark. Is there really video evidence? Great! Bring it on! Because without it, these are just hollow words.

[countryjake]

120. Did you read those links? Congress viewed this stuff, some were sickened..

by what they saw and had to leave the session. There is no doubt that much worse than what was released to the public does, in fact, exist. It's also true that this administration will do everything in its power to prevent any further knowledge of those atrocities ever coming to light. Talking about it and talking about it some more is the only way we'll ever keep them from burying their crimes, totally.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/iraq/main617228.shtml
May 13, 2004

~snip~

In Washington, members of Congress viewed fresh photos and videos of Iraqi prisoner abuse on Wednesday, and said they included disturbing images of torture and humiliation.

"The whole thing is disgusting and it's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein.

"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."

Some key senators thought the pictures should remain secret -- and not just because they are evidence in a criminal investigation, reports CBS News Correspondent David Martin.

"It diminishes these photos from inspiring the enemy from inflicting further damage, harm, otherwise on the members of the armed forces of the United States,'' said Sen. John Warner, R-Va.

The private screening marked the latest turn in a scandal that has rocked the Bush administration and apparently led to the beheading of an American in Iraq by Islamic militants who said they were avenging the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison.

"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Ben Nighthorse Campbell after viewing the images.

[DisgustedTX]

100. Is that a problem? Bush enjoys sodomy

Victor Ashe.

[Virginia Dare]

106. GOD DAMN THEM!

If there is a God. And God damn us for looking the other way while this was going on. By "us" I mean our country as a whole, all of us.

I remember some months ago I was doing some research and stumbled across some pictures that appeared to be of Iraqi women being gang raped by men who appeared to be in U.S. Military uniform.

It was supposedly posted by a former military officer who came across them and was so sickened by them, he felt like the public needed to know.

I have no idea if they're still on the web or not. I have no idea if they were legit are not. I just don't have the heart to look.

:cry: :cry:

[Blue_Tires]

107. k+r

[Danger Mouse]

108. I hope...

I really hope...that this is not true. This is too awful. Just too horrible imagine. This is beyond evil.

[Old and In the Way]

109. I want to know what we've gotten for this torture.

How many documented cases of hard evidence acquired? What did it do for us? No half-ass political spin. I think Bush's need for a "reinterpretation" of Article 3 of the Geneva COnvention is obvious. He's a war criminal. He needs to get this legislation passed in advance of the November elections. It is all about trying to inoculate themselves from responsibility in their pro-torture actions. They are all a bunch of sick people.

[The Count]

113. I don't know about you, but a few juvenile grown up men had a great time

planning this and watching the photos. "Rumsfield, I congratulate you for a great job" W said after going through all photos.

[WinkyDink]

127. Rather than "juvenile", I'd use the word "pedophiliac".

Or at least "perverted".

[The Count]

112. W saw the pictures, came out and said publicly: "Fabulous job, Rumsfield!

No kidding, this is exactly what happened - and all the multitudes of crimes burry one another and no lighting from the sky strikes.

[Disturbed]

117. NBC also reported that the rape of young boys by Iraqi guards

NBC also reported that the rape of young boys by Iraqi guards, apparently in a special section of ... Christian boys and girls get their kicks at Abu Ghraib ...
web.fastermac.net/~cuairtear777/8Buntitled.html

[Marrak]

119. Alberto...

wave this nightmare away...
<>
:dem: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :dem:

[saltpoint]

125. Not difficult to imagine why the Bush administration is not keen to

have this footage on the web, but I can't vote to hang the lot of them until I see the evidence.

As horrifying as it appears to have been, I wasn't there. Hersh is a reliable source, but we know how deceitful and dark Rove can be.

Best to tread quietly and see if a conscionable insider slips this to a responsible reporter. Christiane Amanpour would be someone I'd trust to manage this story.

Not Brit Hume.

[WinkyDink]

128. How about we hang the lot of them for the INVASION alone??

[saltpoint]

131. A slow hanging is now occurring. It wasn't so long ago voters were

told Iraqi citizens would welcome its U.S. "liberators" and that our soldiers' path wold be strewn with roses.

Hasn't happened.

Rumsfeld's pig-headed plan for occupation, if it can even be said to BE a plan, has generated more and more violence.

Generals call for Rumsfeld's head as Dubya's poll numbers drop. Foreign policy is no longer a long suit for these guys. It's now their signature failure.

[WinkyDink]

132. I wasn't speaking metaphorically.

[saltpoint]

133. I know.

[countryjake]

134. To the Hague with the lot of them!

Loved your response!

[Imagevision]

135. And bullshit Bush is telling us what isn't... "ACCEPTABLE?!!!

[bobthedrummer]

138. Years ago civilian, police and military reports about the ritual abuse

of children at Abu Ghraib (and elsewhere) were ignored. Today this cannot be ignored nor denied as it has profoundly harmed so many people, people that are telling the truth in growing numbers.

It is ritual abuse, it was systemic, even marketed in some criminal cult circles that employ many "experts" to deny this-and yet it is true. Special Access Programs and the criminal use of security classifications have failed to contain these reports.

This was discussed here years ago-here is one of the most horrifying and evil components of all history--currently endorsed by the decider, his shadow government, his mercenaries, his evil worshipers and his torturers.

[bobthedrummer]

142. kick

[NNN0LHI]

145. We know what happened to Khalid Sheikh Mohammeds children now

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144871928.html

We have your sons: CIA

March 10 2003
By Olga Craig
Kuwait


Two young sons of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the September 11 attacks, are being used by the CIA to force their father to talk.

Yousef al-Khalid, 9, and his brother, Abed al-Khalid, 7, were taken into custody in Pakistan in September when intelligence officers raided a flat in Karachi where their father had been hiding.

Mohammed fled just hours before the raid but his sons and another senior al-Qaeda member were found cowering behind a wardrobe in the apartment.

The boys have been held by the Pakistani authorities but this weekend they were flown to America where they will be questioned about their father. CIA interrogators confirmed that the boys were staying at a secret address where they were being encouraged to talk about their father's activities. "We are handling them with kid gloves," said one official. "After all, they are only little children, but we need to know as much about their father's recent activities as possible. We have child psychologists on hand at all times and they are given the best of care."

Mohammed, 37, is being held in solitary confinement at the Bagram US military base in Afghanistan. He is being subjected to "stress and duress" interrogation techniques.

[upi402]

150. the same "psychologists" that fine tune torture methods and approve them?

[bobthedrummer]

152. How "ethical" is the BFEE and it's "decider"? eom

[bobthedrummer]

147. kick

[upi402]

149. shame on US for allowing these betrayers of democracy to operate

shame on all Republicans.

they worried so much about the media issue of Clinton's beejer.
and justify this tacitly

[bobthedrummer]

154. kick.

[Imagevision]

159. LINDSAY GRAHAM: "We`re talking about rape and murder here"

we`re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience, we`re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

[AntiFascist]

160. I have to say...

a long time ago wmr reported that porn videos from Abu Ghraib were being sent to the White House for entertainment. At the time I thought this sounded too incredible to be true. Now that this story is hitting more mainstream media I'm beginning to wonder.

[CHIMO]

161. Seymour Hersh: Knowledge of Prisoner Abuse Investigation "Severely and Unu

Seymour Hersh: Knowledge of Prisoner Abuse Investigation "Severely and Unusually Restricted"

AMY GOODMAN: Seymour Hersh, you say that the pictures yet to come unreleased, NBC news quoting U.S. military officials, saying they show American soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner and acting inappropriately with a dead body. The official said there also is a videotape apparently shot by U.S. personnel showing Iraqi guards raping young boys. Where are the videos and photographs?

SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, the army clearly has some of them, but the big fear they have is, you know, this is -- this is the CD, NAPSTER-burned CD generation. Before the investigation began in early January, these were being pass around throughout , throughout the brigade, the brigade of which Janice Karpinski was -- the 800th MP brigade, we're talking about 3,000 or 4,000 people. God knows how many copies and how many videos are out there. But I think it is fair to say that people will be negotiating with the -- with the French photo magazines and the German magazines wherever they can. I don't think we're very far away. I don’t know, I can't tell you that -- where the videos are, but I have heard what NBC wrote, I certainly heard and probably worse.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/10/1417253&mode=thread&tid=25

Dated from 2004.

[woodsgirl]

163. When our

lawmakers vote for torture they can be tried at the Hague.
They know it too. They know they will have a hard time winning
elections on these kind of voting records. Is something going
on that is even more sinister than we realize? All the small
plane accidents where the dems. die, lone gunmen, death
threats to anyone who speaks out against Bushco. Nationwide
voter theft always favoring republicans. We have a dictator
and a coup has taken over D.C.Greg Palast arrested by homeland
security for taking pictures of NOLa survivors in
concentration type conditions. Why don't WE call it. The
Katrina aftermath was genocide. Children being tortured and
sexually assaulted is gestapo.