The President of the United States is currently laying out an arguement...

[mikelewis]

...to legalize torture. Let me say that again so it sinks in. The President of the United States of America is currently laying out an argument to legalize torture. Doesn't anyone else find this to be surreal? What sort of person supports torture under any circumstance.

Set religion and politics and whatever else is clogging up your perception aside and think about just how fucked up that is. When our children join the military, they may one day be force... FORCED... to torture another human being. No trial, no judge, no witnesses, no presumption of innocence... only the methodical administration of pain. Let me assure you of one thing... My children will NEVER participate in this country's military. If something this twisted can even be considered by lawmakers then let them send their children to commit acts of pure evil. They'll never get mine.

These fucking devil-worshiping Republicans are going to leave an indelible shit-stain on our country that future generations will hate us for... mark my words. Our great grandchildren will hear stories of this time and hang their heads in shame over the fact that they come from such weak and servile stock that would allow this travesty against humanity to continue. The reason we don't torture people is not because they may not deserve it and it's not because we're not "macho" enough, it's because to torture someone requires that the person doing the torturing turn into a sadistic animal... a worshiper of pain and misery... a child of Satan. What monsters are these that haunt the halls of our government? Look down at your children and ask yourself, could you ever see that child hooking up jumper cables to a man's testicles... or slicing a child with a knife to force a mother to talk... or holding a human head under water until the feet stop kicking and then reviving and repeating... revive and repeat... revive and repeat.

Wake up America, we are ruled by monsters whose devotion to their dark god has eradicated their humanity and ruined their souls. Are you going to sit idly by while they force your children to kneel down at the feet of the Devil? They are not followers of Christ and even the most strident Atheists will attest to that. Jesus warned us of these monsters and told us how to spot them. He said...

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
So by their fruits you will know them.

The tree that yields the fruit of torture is a rotten tree. America must not eat of this fruit. If we do, I assure you we will all suffer; for God will not suffer anyone whose hands are stained in human blood and who so willingly assents to doing evil.

[SmokingJacket]

1. I think it's all a Charade.

Honestly, I think the US will torture if it wants to no matter what the laws say.

I think what's going on now is a big ISSUE that congressional Republicans can part ways with the president on so that they'll have half a chance of being reelected. "Look," they'll say, "I'm not the president's puppet! I can think for my own self!"

Watch Bush become more and more irrelevent over the next two years while some other Repubs are groomed to take his place.

[yurbud]

5. in the past it was informal. The Bushies did it with White House memos

and the sophomoric homoerotic style makes you wonder if a certain frat boy didn't sit around and make up the tortures himself.

"Hey, there was this funny thing we used ta do ta the pledges at Skull & Bones..."

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. duplicate post n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

81. Ding ding... we have a winner!

"Tell them what they'll be getting, John McCain!"

"Well, Karl, our winners will be receiving 2 more years of Republicans in congress and ANOTHER Republican President who's not afraid to stand up to Bush, even if it costs him the nomination!"

Love the OP.

[baldingrockwarlord2]

2. I am asking your permission...

to post that entire entry into a discussion group if I may. May I please?

[mikelewis]

9. Of course.

[WinkyDink]

3. The late Pope actually pondered whether Bush is the AntiChrist. Seriously.

We are governed by evil, twisted men---and one woman.

And I, too, would like to post this in a political forum elsewhere.

[truedelphi]

23. Nope the former Pope did not do that though

Wayne Madsen laid out the argument that he did.

What Pope said was (and here I am parpaphrasing) that he wished that he was a younger man so that
he coudl take on the negative elements that were now operating in the world.

He also referred to the fact that when he was a younger man he had been strongenough to fight
fasiscm. (As a young man in his late teens and early twenties he had actually battled the Nazis)

The exact quote implies that once again fascism has raised up its ugly head.

However the actual date of his quote was in the early or middle eighties. I have never found anything anywhere to prove that he said these words AFTER Bush II assumed the Presidency.

If I'm wrong, please let me know. I would love to put it an an actual news article as a lead in.

[mmonk]

47. He told the chimp if he invaded Iraq,

he will go without god.

[truedelphi]

66. And then the Pope sent one of his favorite bishops

To Baghdad, just two weeks before the bombs dropped.

Often I have thought that if the Pope were younger, and not so close to death,
he would have gone to Iraq himself.

BTW Ari Fleisher said to People Magazine that the most inane question he was
ever asked was what would the US Armed Forces doif the Poep was in Irawq on the day ithe Shock and Awe campaign was to start.

i don't think that question was that inane. And I also would not have been
shocked or awed if they had decided to bomb Iraq even with the Pope being there inside its borders.

[civildisoBDence]

71. Pope JPII took on Nazis and was instrumental in the fall of communism

moreso than Reagan and Thatcher. He was the moral force behind the Soviet collapse and was targeted for assassination because of it.

Where is a pope like Saint John Paul the Great when we need one?

Newsprism

[Leopolds Ghost]

80. Inane? That's telling.

Apparently Fleischer believes the Pope was predictable and "on the reservation". How arrogant. They seem to treat a lot of world leaders like underlings.

[arewenotdemo]

84. Murdering scores of Iraqis didn't prevent the Cheerleader from picking up

John Paul's critical support come election time.

April 21, 2005 | President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied Vatican officials to help him win the election. "Not all the American bishops are with me," he complained, according to the National Catholic Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S. bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion were committing a "grave sin" and must be denied Communion. He pointedly mentioned "the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws" -- an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger wrote, priests must be ordered to "refuse to distribute it." Any Catholic who voted for this "Catholic politician," he continued, "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion." During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with "evil."

http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/blumenthal/2005/04/21/tk/index.html

[TankLV]

86. As opposed to the CURRENT Pope.

My how low we have come...

[texpatriot2004]

4. "...And by their fruits ye shall know them..." Matthew 7:20 nm

[Lisa]

6. where does it end?

Listening to him was kind of like hearing those apologists going on about how things weren't really that bad for slaves, that they were so much better off than workers today, that the abolitionist side was so shrill and impractical, etc.

Or reading Swift's "Modest Proposal" -- of course that author didn't support eating the children of the poor, he was being satirical to make a point. But looking at Bush, I had the kind of shock that one might get, realizing that he was actually serious!


From Thomas Jefferson:
"The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God. These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves, let the annual return of this day forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner07042003.html

We spent the past few generations trying to climb out of the pit -- it was so deep that people didn't even realize it WAS a pit, and just assumed that this was the way the world had always worked, and even how it should always work. One of the things that identified America, to itself and to the rest of the world, was getting out of the pit (and helping other people out as well). And now, someone is trying to push us back in. Not just any someone -- as you so eloquently point out, mikelewis -- the President of the United States.

[malaise]

7. Indeed

Doesn't anyone else find this to be surreal? What sort of person supports torture under any circumstance.

Frightening would be a better word.

[spanone]

8. Appalled. Horrified.

[indepat]

10. Tens of millions of Amerikans have been eating up all the bad fruit

borne by an extreme RW agenda and loving it.

[gully]

11. Sureal? After what we've witnessed?

I wish I did find it sureal, I'm beyond that.

[gully]

12. BTW, how the hell can America alone decide a universal treaty

is void? Absurd.

Not sure if "treaty" is the correct legal term, but you all get my drift.

[Hamlette]

63. unfortunately, Bush wants that to be the argument, we are just

interpreting (changing even if you want) a treaty. He doesn't want/let us talk about whether torture is right or wrong. See how he changed the conversation when he "answered" David Gregory's question yesterday?

[gully]

67. Correct. Clarification of "torture?"

Again, absurd.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

13. What kind of person advocates torture? Someone who as a child shot

his brother Jeb in the rump with his air rifle, to his parents' great amusement. Somebody who gleefully killed thousands of frogs that would populate the meadow behind the estate after every good rain. Somebody who as governor was absolutely sure no mistake ever was made on Death Row, and who mocked one woman on the gallows in falsetto voice, "Please... Don't kill me!"

[Generator]

14. Yeah, we don't torture because

It doesn't work.

It's wrong.


It's that simple.


If we aren't better than "them" then we have missed the point. We are the monsters. And yes I am stunned that this man-cretin-whatever he IS-is letting this be spoken of as if it is nothing, a necessary thing when all civilized nations condemn it. We are not one ounce better than some hell hole third world nation-and Bush wants to make sure we keep it that way.

[Truthiness Inspector]

15. I'm not sure this is correct

I realize I am the lone dissenting voice on this thread, but my understanding is that he is asking for interrogation techniques to be specifically defined---by the Congress.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. He's not asking that at all.

He's asking for a pardon.

[grasswire]

42. correct

He already allowed the torture. Now he is looking for a retroactive change in the law to absolve him/them of war crimes.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. And everybody, I mean everybody, knows it.

Yet it's a "debate."

This is the nadir of the Chimp presidency.

















So far.

[many a good man]

17. Its obscene

In 1964, Justice Potter Stewart tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . but I know it when I see it . . . "

This quote, and the intent behind it, is well known as summarizing the irony and difficulty in trying to define obscenity. For at least fifty years, the Supreme Court has been struggling with defining what speech is "obscene".

It is surprising that the difficulty in defining obscenity in our history did not fully begin until the mid-1900s. Supreme Court Justice Brennan, who served from 1956 to 1990, who was one of the great, and often liberal, legal minds of the 20th century, attempted repeatedly to define obscenity. The task was much more daunting than he had anticipated.

http://library.findlaw.com/2003/May/15/132747.html

Can you define obscenity? If you can, then you can try to define torture.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

20. One man's electrified nuts is another man's pleasure.

:eyes:

Perfectly making the OP's point.

[many a good man]

31. You miss the point

Geneva Conventions purposely crafted a broad definition. If you delve into specifics, then all that is not not specified can be claimed legal (don't underestimate human ingenuity!).

President Beelzebubba's words show astounding ignorance. There has been a long trail of case law since Nuremburg that destroys his characterization of GC Article 3 as "vague."

"National security" is the opposite of freedom of speech.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Can you define obscenity?

If you can, then you can try to define torture.

Obscenity is a (perceived) 2nd person crime. (In the mind)

Torture is a 1st person crime. (On the body)

I understand the point you're making and the obscenity paradigm was one of the first things to come to my mind upon hearing the Chimp trying to rationalize it. I also understand the point you're making about the parsing of language and the ultimate futility of chasing down a "standard" re: language.

It's an interesting existential phenomena.

One could parse the middle meanings of torture forever...but...detainees have been killed. That's hard to parse.

[many a good man]

39. Killed.

When you put it like that its easy to see how all this talk is just a diversion.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. Killed.

But what does "killed" really mean....

:noemoticonavailabletoexpressmydeepsadness:

[dave29]

50. pro-life-after-death

there, that's it.

[Truthiness Inspector]

22. I appreciate the thoughtful responses

I am wondering, though, how if you can't define torture you can prosecute someone for it.

For me, torture would be listening to Ann Coulter 24/7, but to right-wingers that would be heaven.

It's the issue of definition of torture that is up for debate, as I understand it.

[many a good man]

35. OK. Let's say Congress declares explicity "waterboarding is torture"

How do you address the administration's utilization of the tactic? Do you let him off scot free because it wasn't explicitly stated by Congress aforehand? Or do you punish him?

What if Congress votes waterboarding is OK? Its clearly condemned by the World Court. All members of Congress and the president who approved it, all who condoned it or participated in it, is officially a WAR CRIMINAL under international law.

Our country is currently officially condoning torure. "Torture" hasn't yet been explicitly defined, because the world knows it when we see it. Beelzebush is merely trying to bully himself into a "get of jail free" card that just won't wash.

Face the facts. This is America.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. It is defined in the GC as cruel or humiliating treatment.

You cannot hurt or humiliate prisoners. It is that simple. Doing so is a war crime. We have hurt (to the point where we have killed) prisoners and we have obviously gone to great extents to humiliate them. This is not a semantic argument. The words are quite clear.

[Atman]

19. Not actually

He asked for nothing other than that everything the SCOTUS said was illegal now be made legal.

Can you say "Hitler?"

[truedelphi]

25. Yep that's pretty much it BUT

He also is framing it inside the idea that the Senate is to be "Clarifying" the Geneva Convention - which is very well written and certainly not an unclear document, so he is speaking with a forked tongue.

For anyone to "clarify" the Geneva COnvention and come up with the concept of detaining people in unknown camps that are not within the purview of The Red Cross, etc is to really re-write the document. But Bush does not see that contradicition.

[Atman]

26. Yeah, it's been so vague since 1945.

Every other president seems to have understood it. Bush, though, is flummoxed. Maybe because he's a stupid fucking moron who couldn't even read "The Pet Goat" without 2d graders helping him.

[emmadoggy]

74. This is the part that really sticks in my craw...

The fact that the Geneva Conventions have been around for DECADES and through countless wars and are accepted and ratified by, what? almost 200 nations?? No previous President or other world leader seems to have had trouble figuring it out or understanding it or has needed to "clarify" it. It's ludicrous and completely obvious what he is trying to do and ANYONE - no matter how much they support this administration - who can't see through this ploy is a completely brainless schmuck.

Vague, MY ASS. What? They want a laundry list of all the torture techniques that are forbidden so they can then come up with a whole new crop of techniques that no one has previously thought up and they can then claim, "well it's not on the list!!!" God, they are despicable. The whole POINT is to not lay out specifics so that people can just dodge around them!!

Their reprehensible policies and slimy tactics are becoming more and more bold and "in your face" and yet we still have roughly 40% of this population and a majority of congress who support this administration. Where has the moral conscience and dignity and humanity of this nation gone?

:cry: :cry: :cry:
:mad:

[TankLV]

88. Kinda like generic drugs and illegal drugs.

The anti-drug laws and patent laws are extremely finite in their definitions of patented medicines and illegal drugs.

All a person has to do is change ONE chemical or ONE molecule, and technically the new compound is not included in the illegal or patented categories and as such is technically legal or not-patented.

Same thing will happen here...

[truedelphi]

24. Just got to watch him in action at the Press "Roast"

of earlier today - he states that he is asking the Senate for this,(the right to torture) and that
if they don't give him what he wants, well, it's all over...

He was angry and petulant and sorta "They better let us torture or we'll take our wars
and our marbles and go home."

He also said that "The American people better understand..." We are his little chil-run and he is
the Big Daddy and Gee we better get it together or his big bad belt is coming out to whip our butts.

[mikelewis]

29. Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions

This is current U.S. law...

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

He's seeking to apply new rules to "terrorists" because he "believes" they are not subject to Geneva protections; this in spite of the recent SCOTUS rulings. Because of the courts decision, he's trying to get the practices he's currently using legalized retroactively. He's hoping this will allow him to continue to torture people and get him off the hook for any laws he may have broken.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

34. Way to memorize..

..White House talking points.

[kohodog]

38. and what planet do you come from?

This is such a blatent ploy to ignore international law and justify torture. If it was a dictatorship (and we're pretty damn close), he wouldn't need to throw a tantrum and threaten us with terror because he could just stick a cherry bomb up the ass of anyone he wanted and light the fuse.

[Hamlette]

64. if that is all he wanted, he would allow us to talk about which techniques

he won't. It is not what he wants, it's just what he says he wants.

He's not saying, let's have a discussion about what kind of treatment is right or wrong. He's saying: this kind of treatment is right and that's my definition, end of discussion.

He drank his own Kool Aide.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. You need to extract the hook, line, and sinker, and then

get that kool aide pumped out of your stomach. What exactly do you think is the difference between these 'interrogation techniques' that Bush wants to exempt from the geneva conventions and the cruel or humiliating treatment of prisoners that is explicitly prohibited by the Geneval Conventions?

[TankLV]

87. He's asking for them to defined more CASUALLY - to specifically

ALLOW more methods that are now considered WAR CRIMES.

He is asking for clarification - clarification to TORTURE...

[Atman]

18. I find his "threat" to stop it unless Congress approves is totally surreal

"If you don't make my illegal activity legal, then dammit, I'll just go ahead and stop it!"

WTF????

What is scarier is that Congress just might do it for him!

[mikelewis]

32. There's no question they're going to pass this legislation...

If by some miracle, the Democrats manage to take either House, he'll need this legislation to stave off an impeachment attempt. He's caught red-handed (literally) and he needs to cover his ass. The Repubes will pass this, I can guarantee you. After much posturing, the Repubes will appear to rebel against this President, yet in the end, they'll give him exactly what he asked for.

[TankLV]

91. Let them. You can't make something legal RETROACTIVELY.

What he HAS ADMITTED DOING is ILLEGAL now - passing new laws AFTER THE FACT won't make what this WAR CRMINAL did legal - he can be prosecuted for his crimes, no matter what the REPUKES do.

And, secondly, if the repukes can RETROACTIVELY change the law, the Democrats, IF they regain control, can, and BETTER, likewise RETROACTIVELY change the law back...and we'd better not hear from the usual apologists here to "move on" and "that is in the past - what are you gonna do NOW" bullshit...

[many a good man]

37. Let him torture or he'll refuse to protect America

This is filibuster material if I've ever seen it.

[havocmom]

21. What sort of person? The one who signed the order

and has since been informed that it is illegal.

What I want to know relates to his needing 'clarification' for some young intelligence officer.... Anybody else smell the likelihood there has been a legal mutiny, that someone, or even many, have refused an illegal order?

[Raksha]

30. That somebody refused an unlawful order...

that is the most optimistic scenario of all. I really hope you're right about that. I would LIKE to believe there are still a few people left in our government and our military with a functioning conscience.

[truedelphi]

33. 5,000 American GI's are AWOL in Ireland

And every time TruthOut interviews someone who is not going back to Iraq,
they always talk about how the reality of what they were ordered to do
during their first tour (and their compliance with it) is not something they
want to continue

I can't believe that intelligence officers have their humanity doled out to
them in lesser proportions - some of them must balk at performing these activities

[havocmom]

45. I know one for sure who has been enraged by what has gone on.

There probably are thousands. The first to say 'no sir, I will not' is never the last.

There is the humanity and then there is the logic. Some things you just don't do because it only brings bad. Do this to your enemy, your enemy does it to you. And someone who is being tortured will say what they think you want to hear. Torture is no guarentee you get truth.

There is humanity and then there is logic. There are lots of people who have both.

[truedelphi]

65. "There is humanity and then there is logic.

There are lots of people who have both"

Unfortunately none of them are anywhere near to influencing
The "It is wrong to think" President.

I am beginning to wonder if the man is deaf. Even morons start to
realize whenthe support has left them, their bad ideas - like dirty stinkey
diapers - need changing. And fast.

[havocmom]

70. The only ones allowed close enough to influence ARE the problem

But the ones all over who are gonna say No Sir, and not obey are the solution. The malAdministration only has power if they can keep people following orders. If the orders are illegal, and a few refuse them, it WILL create a wave which will swamp the ship of fools.

bush is NOT the problem. He is just the visible head of the festering pimple. Once enough anaseptic gets applied, the pus and bacteria at the root will be encapsulated and rendered harmless. It WILL be quite a fight though. The good news is that fight IS going on. That was evident in how red and inflamed the head of the pimple has been of late.

[NotGivingUp]

27. It's time for these monsters to pay for their crimes...Let's not

settle for anything less. It's been depressing to see what's happened to our country, but tonight I'm feeling like we've reached a turning point. We can have our country back, and we can have it back BETTER than it was.

[Independent_Liberal]

28. Right bro!

It's up to us to stop the Bush Regime's and the GOP's fascist remaking of society!

[Disturbed]

40. Clarity.

Busholini said that the Secret Prisons are a necessity in the War On Terror. The methods of interogation in those Secret Prisons are necessary. Congress must approve both. In order to approve the methods it must be stated what those methods have been. Will those be revealed?

If the Geneva Conventions must be changed to be more specific with what is allowed then every concievable method of interogation must be written down that will be allowed. Also, what is not allwed must be written down. Those could be a real long lists.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

41. When the shrub said "clarify/more specific" he MEANT to specify that

any and all acts committed by himself and his surrogates, are LEGAL.

[havocmom]

46. The shrub shudders

Someone explained Poppy can't get him out of the Hague. Cheney has to be hysterical. Their feet of sand are washing out from under them.

[slipslidingaway]

48. Some good information at this site.

snip>>

"As I explain below, however, that's only half the story, because the draft Administration bill would (i) retroactively legalize all the unlawful acts that were approved and performed from 2001 to the present day (see section 9, page 86); (ii) would cut off all judicial review of U.S. compliance with the Geneva Conventions (section 6(b), page 79); and, most importantly, (iii) would authorize the CIA -- and, for that matter, other agencies, including DoD itself -- to engage in what the President today euphemistically referred to as the CIA's "alternative set of procedures." Those proceudres include many techniques that today's Army Field Manual would purport to prohibit for the military"

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/cias-alternative-set-of-procedures.html


snip>>

"SEC. 9. RETROACTIVE APPLICATION.

This Act shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act and shall apply retroactively, including to any aspect of the detention, treatment, or trial of any person detained at any time since September 11, 2001, and to any claim or cause of action pending on or after the date of the enactment of this Act."

http://balkin.blogspot.com/Bush.Military.Commissions.Bill.pdf

[roamer65]

49. I think I am beginning to see the scenario

for the eventual invasion of the United States. If Mexico goes into turmoil, it would provide the entry point for invading forces. The other nations of the world will only take so much and they will eventually act to try to stop the madness.

[jmowreader]

73. It would be easier to invade via Canada

The northern frontier--the Canadian border--is nowhere near as heavily guarded as the southern frontier--the Mexican border. Also, the main things an invading force would need to secure, which are mostly inside the DC beltline, are closer to Canada than they are to Mexico.

Unfortunately, with this numb-nuts you'd also have to take Crawford, Texas, because you KNOW that's where he'd run to.

I actually half-expect someone on his Secret Service detail to shoot the dumb bastard.

[kerstin]

51. Their allegiance to torture

has about as much to do with extracting information from terror suspects as domestic surveillance has to do with monitoring terrorist communications. It is a clear act of terror masquerading as a counterterrorism measure, with the ultimate goal of suppressing and intimidating the population as a whole.

It also seemed to me it was very deliberately introduced as a topic by Bush's personal "portable chorus" very shortly after 9/11. I have a very clear memory of neocon architect Bill Kristol announcing the need for torture in "fighting terrorism" as soon as November of 2001. Looking back, it was obviously something we were being inured to with the reptilian Kristol and others being assigned the task.

I fully expect them to begin the campaign for convincing Americans of the necessity of torturing other Americans deemed "enemy combatants." (And anyone who objects will, of course, be un-American.)

These are cowards and soulless, barbaric bullies.

[Pachamama]

54. The AP story quoting the Sec. of the Air Force's desire to use Microwave

"Non-Lethal" weaponry on US Citizens for crowd control is also with those very same goals and purposes in mind that you mention. It serves the purpose of "normalizing" and also as a "pre-warning" to those that would be planning in the future to rise up and speak out against them.

They are soul-less cowards and barbaric bullies. And they are in charge and they are scarier than we realize. I'm far more scared about all this than any "threat from terrorism".

[kerstin]

55. They are the only one terrorizing me.

It's hard for me to believe that this time will actually pass.

[Pachamama]

61. Same here...

And like you, I keep the faith alive that this time will actually pass, but I also have this sickening feeling that these people play for keeps and have no intention of giving up power. They will keep it somehow, even if the actors front and center change. I am a generally positive person, and yet when I look at what is happening, I have a bad, bad feeling we've been here before...

Germany in the 1930's perhaps? I say that with a lot of sincerity and excellent comparisons. I only know that based on what my Grandparents used to tell me (they escaped Nazi Germany a few months after Kristall Nacht) and then what I know from studies of history and the rise of the Nazis and fascism in Europe, there are way too many eerie similarities.

I imagine the way you and I and our friends and family talk in disbelief and disgust of what we see happening and wondering why else the vast majority doesn't see it. There is that sense of "what can we do?" and then we try to rationalize it and say that there is no way it can get worse...or can it?

[kerstin]

82. Are your grandparents still living, by any chance?

I wonder what they would think of what is happening in this country today. There were wise to have recognized "the night of broken glass" as the dark harbinger it was.

I had no relatives who lived through that horror but, like you, have studied some on my own about the rise of Naziism, etc. A book I often refer to is "Analysis of the SS State" and, I agree, the parallels are striking and numerous -- the demagoguery, the insidious usurpation of power, the bastardization of language for purposes of psychological manipulation, the normalization of increasingly savage demonstrations of man's inhumanity to man. The methodology strikes me as so similar, in fact, that I would say that they have been consciously adopted by the architects of the current day incipient totalitarianism. They have learned the wrong lessons very, very well it would seem.

Another book I find applicable is Erich Fromm's "Escape from Freedom."

Thank you for the thoughtful discourse, Pachamama. I'm rather isolated, so it's good to connect with someone who thinks and feels similarly about the creeping oppression.

[Pachamama]

89. No, sadly they are not living...But I believe that if they were, they'd be

very alarmed and they would be speaking out about it to everyone.

Yes, I agree that they were wise (and lucky) to have recognized the night of broken glass as the dark harbinger it was. They weren't jewish, but had neighbors, friends, colleagues that were and they knew that it was a matter of very little time left. I keep hoping that we aren't moving in that direction but that if we are, that I am able to "channel" that wisdom and know when its time to leave here.

I constantly have such a strange sense of deja vu these days...

:hi:

[kerstin]

92. As far as I'm concerned, that time has come.

I'm investigating other countries now to immigrate to. I'm afraid if I wait much longer, I'll find myself in a Halliburton concentration camp being tortured by a fellow American "just following orders."

This virile strain of Republicanism cannot tolerate creativity, original thought or beauty of any kind and it seems they are on a quest to eliminate all trace of it. They seek not to govern, but to enslave. They cannot create, so they destroy.

My friend tells me that all I talk about is what's happening in this country. It's true, I brood constantly. I want to go back to writing poetry and short stories, but it seems so insignificant now. I feel as though I have a very aggressive form of cancer and have only a meager few weeks to live.

[Pachamama]

52. The rotten tree named Barbara produced the rotten fruit named George

And America has been gorging itself on its fruit...and yes, we are all suffering because of it. And even if those of us who don't eat from this fruit are not guilty of perpetrating the evil that comes from it, we all are if we don't try to speak out and stop this from happening.

Thank you for the great summary what is taking place...I couldn't agree more. The idea that these people in the Bush Administration want to turn our children into murderers, torturers, sadistic instruments of their twisted minds and evil intentions....

I'm not religious, but the warnings of Jesus you quoted are so eerie and clear in their warning. The question is whether anyone is paying attention.

[kerstin]

53. And we will be even less convincing than the Germans

when we claim, "We didn't know."

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

56. I have never been so ashamed of my country

At least before, he *pretended* he wasn't breaking the law.

[mikelewis]

57. A Reading from the Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20

Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ...

...then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Then the Lord sayeth, "Bring out the Holy Branks and the Divine Judas Cradle so that that which is vile shall be made clean, through the grace and love of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Apply your ministrations on those you believe to be wicked or conspiring against the Lord so that their evil shall falter and God's grace can be revealed. Should the Devil speak wicked lies through their mouths and profess innocence, drive him forth with Mother Mary's Iron Maiden and then deliver them forth to God with God's Guillotine."

Blessed are the torturers; for they will administer the Kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the videographers; for they shall record the Lord's delight in pain so that leaders can see and delight.
Blessed are the sheep that allow these laws; for they will most certainly be persecuted in God's name.

[emald]

58. being of a ripe old age

I have learned that you can judge a person by the "trail" of his life. GWBushit trail has an overpowering stench of evil. Lies to start a war (can you imagine this? lying, LYING, to start a war), smears others with lies (plame), punches the law in the nuts with his torture dreams. How can this be?

[NJmaverick]

59. Start calling him the TORTURE PRESIDENT

A nice take off on the war president. If we all start referring to him that way...

[Straight Shooter]

60. I could only refer to him as the "Torture leader."

Little Boots will never earn the title "president" from me. As much as I despised Reagan, I know he won the election by an overwhelming majority of votes, Iran/Contra dirty tricks and all.

But Little Boots never attained anything in his life without manipulation, money, and malice aforethought.

==============

Another poster mentioned something I also posted about yesterday on DU. Is bush watching these torture videos? How many? How often?

[librechik]

62. Only for him. If any of us get caught torturing, say, a neighbor's kid

we would be eligible for the death penalty. The Shrezz is Insane.

[creeksneakers2]

72. I find it surreal

Its like a nightmare.

[NJCher]

75. it was indeed surreal

Where he kept saying, "The program will not go forward. The program will not go forward." was where I found it the most surreal. What does this wretch think? That we want him to perteck us so bad that we will back him tortoring people?

Kerstin, your post 51 is what I try to get across to my classes. Unfortunately, I do not think people understand that this is the ultimate game plan: breaking down the barriers as to what is acceptable so that absolute power can be wielded. I remember a time when I never dreamed this country would fight an unprovoked war, a war of choice. How quickly they have brought down the barriers civilization has established.




Cher

[kerstin]

83. Are your students high school or college level?

I'm afraid those who have come of age post-9/11 won't understand how things are supposed to be.

I believe there's been a deliberate campaign to desensitize us to cruelty with the effect of expanding the boundaries of decency, for the very purposes you state.

Thank you and good luck in fighting the good fight with your students.

[NJCher]

85. my students are college level

Mostly sophomores, juniors, and seniors.

Yes, that is the scariest thought of all: that they won't know how it's supposed to be. Teachers everywhere need to think about this. It's bad enough what video games have done, let alone systematic torture, cruelty and inhumanity exhibited by the government.




Cher

[happydreams]

76. And torture doesn't work anyway.

So there must be another reason for his lunacy. Like maybe he just wants to let everyone know what happens if they cross Bushista power.

[Danger Mouse]

77. Still can't believe it either...

But what frightens me more is how many people actually SUPPORT that sick bastard, and would fully support torturing perceived terrorists. There are some particularly sick and twisted and individuals...far too many...who would view you or me as 'traitors' and deserving torture and death as well.
The parallels between Bush and Hitler are too numerous to ignore.

[mnhtnbb]

78. The late Pope was not alone in wondering if Bush is the anti-Christ

www.bushisantichrist.com

Makes a helluva an argument.

The man is evil. Through and through.

[Jed Dilligan]

90. Vietnam and the War on Drugs

unleashed these dogs on us. Bush wants to institutionalize it. That's gross, but I'm not sure we can turn back the clock either.

Then again, I fear that the cruelty of the frontier and the plantation will be in our veins until we stop existing as a nation.