ok, can someone tell me WHY Bush wants to torture people???

[LSK]

Most experts agree that torture does not work. And some might argue that Bush doesnt even want to fight terror.

So what is the REAL reason he is going batshit crazy about torture??? Does Halliburtan have some new torture machine or something???

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Appeal to his base.

They like hearing about "them" getting tortured.

[LSK]

2. yeah but its a potentially divisive issue for the GOP

With McCain adamantly against it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. I think McCain's pretty much marginalized.

[JHB]

3. "Most experts" are wishy-washy, limp-wristed, terraist-huggin Libruls!

...and real manly-men like His Squandership and pals know better.

Plus all of Poppy's pals down in Central and South America handle things that way, and they're doing pretty good for themselves...

[shadowknows69]

11. He likes to hurt things?

just a wild stab in the dark....at a kitten.

[verse18]

5. Because he's a sick fuck.

He gets off on the pain and suffering of others.

[Skidmore]

6. Because I strongly suspect that there is no "there" there.

No matter how much they look and try to contrive, the sorry truth probably is more that a handful of Islamic cultist have been successful at pulling of acts of terror every decade or so. That when it boils down to it the average person on the streets is just trying to survive in those countries. And that whipping it up, both here and there is the only way they are able to keep this thing going. It foments hatred on both sides. It is a technique and a tactic at once.

[LSK]

13. thats an excellent point

In reality we havnt been hit since 9/11 in the US and the Miami and London liquidgaters never really amounted to anything serious and were stopped by POLICE WORK.

[ryanus]

7. So that we will be more likely to accept the torture of citizens

[anarch]

8. I dunno...why did Ted Bundy kill all those people?

Oh yeah, because he was a fucking psycho...same for Bush, if you ask me.

[kohodog]

9. He got tired of blowing up frogs. n/t

[lectrobyte]

I never got the whole blowing up frogs. Did he wet the bed and

start fires too?

[bdamomma]

45. now he likes to blow up people

[ChicagoRonin]

10. Domestic Control

Worst case scenario: The use of torture against alleged terror suspects will eventually translate into its use against citizens of the United States that the government deems "rogue elements," "insurrectionists," or the like. Organizations dedicated to peaceful and lawful opposition, be it PETA, the anti-tobacco lobby, pro-choice groups, will be locked away in legal limbo.

Like I said, a worst-case fantasy scenario - at least I hope so.

[alfredo]

14. Any of us could be branded a terrorist and no evidence to support

the allegations need be presented.

[LSK]

18. the patriot act already does that

He doesnt need torture to do that.

[alfredo]

38. He now wants immunity for the torturer.

[SledDriver]

20. DING DING DING

You guessed it!

First they need to get the laws changed to allow the torutre of "terror" suspects. Then you can just charge anyone as a terrorist as the need arises.

[no_hypocrisy]

12. It comes natural to him? Divertisement? Psychotic mandate?

[atommom]

15. He wants to make it seem more acceptable, and is probably excited

about the prospect of using microwave weapons for "crowd control."

[Avalux]

16. Not all about that - he doesn't want to be persecuted for war crimes.

If he can manage to pass a law rendering the Geneva Conventions "not applicable" in cases of torture, he won't be held liable. There would be a section in his law that would absolve any "agent" who orders, carries out torture.

[LSK]

17. another good point, thanks

[BurtWorm]

22. That definitely answers why this legislation is being pushed on Congress.

But it's still a bit of a mystery why they became so enamored of torture to begin with. How did that bug get in their brains?

[Avalux]

Good question - wish I knew.

Probably not as complicated as the "we can do what we want" attitude. Bushco has had a complete lack of regard for any law or regulation since taking office.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Oh! He's CYAing. No wonder he got super pissy when being questioned

about The Geneva Conventions. ;)

His base is consists of mostly Authoritarian Loving Republican THUGS. The kind of people who adored the bully on the playground as long as they were not ever one of his targets. They adore pompous posturing and keeping "the other" under the heels of their Jack boots. Many of these folks, IMO, are a heartbeat away from joining "The Aryan Brotherhood." However, they realize that literally abusing people would be "Oh so much more fun" if it were, in fact, LEGAL.

The People who ADORE and PRAY for Bush are truly NAZIS. In fact, if they were in charge, they would have taken the woman reporter who simply said, "Hi, Mr. President" to a quiet chamber and beat the crap out of her to drive home the point, you don't address Dear Leader in such a disrespectful way. Further, her press pass would have been withdrawn and she'd be on her way to a re-education camp.

Make no mistake fellow DUers, most of Bush's base, are clearly the Nazis who ALL came out of the woodwork on day Nixon resigned. :(

[Anarcho-Socialist]

19. Bush only wants to hear what he wants to hear

Torturing someone to tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is factual) is a part of this. Il Douché doesn't watch the news or read opinion pages, he is surrounded by sycophants who tell him how great he is and shields him from the outside world. It is part of a wider mind-set in the White House, Defense Department and wherever neo-conservative ideologues meet.

[alfredo]

21. sadism

n.
1. The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty.
3. Extreme cruelty.

[Annces]

53. exactly, sadism probably directed from Cheney

[alfredo]

57. I think what describes these guys is the phrase

sick fucks.


They pretend they are Christians, but when push comes to shove their true evil intent comes out.

[Generic Other]

23. The Milgram Experiment

The experimenter (E) orders the participant (S) to give what the participant believes are painful electric shocks to another participant (A), who is actually an actor. Many participants continued to give shocks despite pleas for mercy from the actor, as long as the experimenter kept on ordering them to do so.


The "teacher" was given a 45-volt electric shock from the electro-shock generator as a sample of the shock that the "learner" would supposedly receive during the experiment. The "teacher" was then given a list of word pairs which he was to teach the learner. The teacher began by reading the list of word pairs to the learner. The teacher would then read the first word of each pair and read 4 possible answers. The learner would press a button to indicate his response. If the answer was incorrect, the learner would receive a shock, with the voltage increasing with each wrong answer. If correct, the teacher would read the next word pair.

The subjects believed that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual shocks. In reality, there were no shocks. After the confederate was separated from the subject, the confederate set up a tape recorder integrated with the electro-shock generator, which played pre-recorded sounds for each shock level. After a number of voltage level increases, the actor started to bang on the wall that separated him from the subject. After several times banging on the wall and complaining about his heart condition, the learner gave no further responses to questions and no further complaints.

<SNIP>

At this point, many people indicated their desire to stop the experiment and check on the learner. Some test subjects paused at 135 volts and began to question the purpose of the experiment. Most continued after being assured that they would not be held responsible. A few subjects began to laugh nervously or exhibit other signs of extreme stress once they heard the screams of pain coming from the learner.

If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:

1. Please continue.
2. The experiment requires you to continue, please go on.
3. It is essential that you continue.
4. You have no choice, you must continue.

If the subject still wished to stop after all four successive verbal prods, the experiment was halted. Otherwise, it was halted after the subject had given the maximum 450-volt shock three times in succession.

In Milgram's first set of experiments, 67.5 percent (27 out of 40) of experimental participants administered the experiment's final 450-volt shock, though many were quite uncomfortable in doing so; everyone paused at some point and questioned the experiment, some even saying they would return the check for the money they were paid. No participant steadfastly refused to give further shocks before the 300-volt level. Variants of the experiment were later performed by Milgram himself and other psychologists around the world with similar results. Apart from confirming the original results the variations have tested variables in the experimental setup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[Parche]

24. torture

We should start using those machines on the right wing Republican party soon!!! haha




GO BRYAN KENNEDY FOR CONGRESS

[democrat_patriot]

25. He honestly believes it works

as a 'tool' to extract information. He thinks it is necessary. He's not insane, just horribly wrong.

[ShortnFiery]

28. Correct! He's not LEGALLY insane. He's a textbook "Sociopath." n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

27. tyrants remain in power by scaring people into compliance

The military is now openly floating the idea of microwaving angry mobs (formerly known as American citizens practicing their First Amendment rights). It seems like too much of a coincidence to me. :shrug:

[Lexingtonian]

29. for a very easy reason

If evidence obtained by torture is excluded from these 'trials', the Bush people probably don't have the legal evidence needed to convict any of the fourteen EvilDoers(tm) of jaywalking, let along masterminding a terrorist plot. That's politically a disaster they can't recover from.

It just tells you how low they went out of stupidity, ego, and fear- and now they need the violations they perpetrated to be legalized and politically redeemed. We'd be legalizing torture if we let them do that, and they will then exploit the loophole created to murder these people- I mean, do you imagine the Bush people will let any of them live to tell what crimes were perpetrated against them and what a farce of due process, equal protection, and "justice" in general they experienced in those CIA and ISI prisons? If that were to come out, a lot of the world might come to the view that Americans were deserving of a historical punishment on the order of a few thousand people killed- talk about bin Laden winning.

It's that pathetic at bottom.

And yes, Bush and his crew don't want to be held personally liable for the crimes they authorized while in office.

[Sapphire Blue]

30. Dr. Justin Frank could tell you...

You can listen to an interview w/Dr. Frank here: http://www.eyeonbooks.com/ibp.php?ISBN=0060736704

[WinkyDink]

31. P-S-Y, Why? Because he LIKES it! C-H-O, Oh, no, he di'n't!

P-A-T-H-Y!

[Mandate My Ass]

35. ...

:spray: :rofl:

[underpants]

32. My opinion? He is covering for Rummy and Dick getting caught redhanded

I would assume that we (the US) do some sort of torturing from time to time but never systematically never as a normal course of business.

I think that this is Rummy and Dick's doing harkening back to settling old scores Cold war era as well as 9/11. I would not be surprised if they have seen one session first hand. It probably does get them off but mostly they want the satisfaction of seeing their enemy's pain.

W is just the front man, the sales man if you will. Unfortuneately he has blurted out in public ( wiretapping and prisons) secrets that they had to go into full spin control because dumbass let on about the secret.

[springhill]

33. I think the answer to that is pretty easy............

He is a psycho, much like Ted Bundy. But, instead of going out and actually killing people, he gets the thrill through having surrogates (namely soldiers, cia agents, etc.) do the kiling and torturing for him. That's how he gets his thrills. How else to account for the smirk he has on his face every time he mentions torture or war? He's a sick man.

[Beelzebud]

34. Ever see Reservoir Dogs? Maybe he just has fun with it.

[Xenotime]

36. You have to pratice on someone...before he turns on us.

[Julius Civitatus]

37. It's Neocon theory: to make other countries fear the USA

It's part of the Neocon / PNAC thinking, and they have repeated it many times, in not so veiled terms.

After 9/11 they wanted to just kick ass around, randomly, to show the US rules and that other countries should fear how crazy and brutal the US can be. That was part of the reason why they invaded Iraq without an exit strategy. It wasn't about invading, WMD, or regime change: it was about making Iraq our bitch in the eyes of the Arab world. Torture was part of the strategy.

OF course, it has backfired: The US has lost its moral high ground, its allies, and even the reputation of its military strength. What the Neocons have done is disgraceful, dumb, and counterfproductive. It will take many years for America to regain its high ground.

And of course, because he is a strange man. This is the same guy who mocked a death row inmate while he was governor of Texas. An he blew up frogs with fireworks for fun, when he was kid.

[spanone]

39. Maybe it's the ultimate rush after fucking up a superpower.

[aikoaiko]

40. About torture not working: I've heard it too, but have you seen any data

I've only heard personal opinion. I've heard well thought out explanations, but no data or research.

Is it an article of faith that it works? Or an article of faith that is doesn't work?

Or is it just an ideological position.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

41. Well, I've certainly never tortured anyone

However, I have a pretty low threshold for pain and let me tell you:

I'd confess to just about anything you wanted me to if things started getting hairy.

So, in my case it wouldn't work. I'd start making up stuff to try and get them to stop.

[Mandate My Ass]

48. That's exactly what happens

interrogator: "Who is helping you blow up the bridges?"

detainee: (with electrodes attached to genitalia) "I don't know anything about blowing up bridges. I'm not involved."

interrogator: (zaps genitalia with high voltage charge) "Now, who is helping you blow up the bridges? You don't want to go down alone do you?"

detainee: "Arrgh! I am not involved in a plot to blow up bridges, I swear!!!"

interrogator: (zapping genitalia for a longer period of time at higher voltage) "I asked, who is helping you?"

detainee: "Stoooooooooop Please!" (desperately searching memory for names of people he doesn't really like to end excruciating pain) "Me and Joe and Bob and Harry. We were going to do it tomorrow night."

interrogator: "I thought so."

:eyes:

[aikoaiko]

50. I guess it sounds like a silly question, but whether it works

...has an empirical answer. And I'm sure people in this country and other countries have collected that data. I agree, I would say anything too, but that information is verifiable.

I'm not saying it work or doesn't work, but I would like to know that answer and I'm sure the data is out there --- somewhere.

Even if it works, we would still need to decide on the ethics of using it, of course.

[MountainLaurel]

42. Because he's a sociopath?

:shrug:

[Disturbed]

49. Torture has been practiced and sanctioned by

Busholini. Now the Regime must make it legal in order not to be prosecuted for the many times that it has been applied. Also, the people that have been tortured cannot be prosecuted for info that they confessed to if torture isn't legalized.

If Dems garner a majority in the House, Senate or both the investigartions may reveal that the Busholini Regime has commited many crimes. This is what the RWing is afraid of.

[Marie26]

43. He's a sadistic narcissistic bastard.

Whenever the subject is brought up, he gets this creepy grin that he can't quite manage to hide. He wants to torture because he likes it. It's just that simple.

[woodsprite]

44. Because he's outgrown frogs? n/t

[Jersey Devil]

46. This is about past torture, not future torture

He is afraid that if the Dems take over Congress they will investigate and find out his Administration has been torturing prisoners in violation of the Geneva Conventions all along. This is an attempt to immunize everyone in his Admin from prosecution once Dems take over.

[EstimatedProphet]

47. Because it makes him and his base feel 'manly'

I think that's really what's driving it.

[Rockstone]

51. Political gameplan

Probaly they see it as dems are afraid of agreeing to use torture, so it is an opportunity to paint dems as being weak on it. That and they think if they make it legal, their past crimes will be forgiven.

[bamacrat]

52. Something in his childhood I'm sure....

Or he's just too dumb to talk to people he'd rather pull their fingernails out.

[lawladyprof]

54. So people will see Republicans as more vigorous in defending

the U.S./us from terrorists/terrorism. It is a political strategy--to help them win elections. Someone let it slip yesterday or the day before on some program I was watching and when I heard that something in my mind went "ker-ching" and a whole lot of stuff fell into place. I wish the Dems would call them on it. "Who was in charge when 9-11 happened?" "Do you trust the party that wants you to think they are tough on terror or the party that is smart and competent enough to keep you safe?"

Still, the use of torture for political gain is appalling--even worse than its use because you honestly believe that it is an effective means of gaining information and preventing attacks.

[leftchick]

55. same reason he stuck firecrackers in frogs

he is a sociopath.

[skip fox]

56. Like like to see everyone who said our interrogation techniques are not

horrible be REQUIRED to watch (at least on tape) at least one of the harsher interrogations."

(How long would Condi last? Would the typical Republican congressperson?)