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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:17 AM
Original message
Bush and God Again: "senses a "Third Awakening' of religious belief"
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 11:40 AM by bigtree

President Bush said yesterday that he senses a "Third Awakening" of religious devotion in the United States that has coincided with the nation's struggle with international terrorists, a war that he depicted as "a confrontation between good and evil."

Bush told a group of conservative journalists that he notices more open expressions of faith among people he meets during his travels, and he suggested that might signal a broader revival similar to other religious movements in history. Bush noted that some of Abraham Lincoln's strongest supporters were religious people "who saw life in terms of good and evil" and who believed that slavery was evil. Many of his own supporters, he said, see the current conflict in similar terms.

"A lot of people in America see this as a confrontation between good and evil, including me," Bush said during a 1 1/2 -hour Oval Office conversation on cultural changes and a battle with terrorists that he sees lasting decades. "There was a stark change between the culture of the '50s and the '60s -- boom -- and I think there's change happening here," he added. "It seems to me that there's a Third Awakening."

The First Great Awakening refers to a wave of Christian fervor in the American colonies from about 1730 to 1760, while the Second Great Awakening is generally believed to have occurred from 1800 to 1830.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/12/AR2006091201594_pf.html


excerpts of the interview from Lowery at NRO: (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDdiZGNlMjgxMzUxYTI1OTdmMWFiMTE4ZmZiMzc2ZDM=)

"Bush’s faith in the rightness of his strategy in the broader war is deep-seated — it is, indeed, a product of faith. “Freedom is universal,” Bush says. “And I recognize there’s a debate around the world about the kind of — whether that principle is real. I call it moral relativism, if people do not believe that certain people can be free. I mean, I just cannot subscribe to that. People — I know it upsets people when I ascribe that to my belief in an Almighty, and that I believe a gift from that Almighty is universal freedom. That’s what I believe.”

So it is somehow appropriate that a wide-ranging conversation on the war and the capacities of cultures to change swings around toward the end to the role of faith in our own culture. “Cultures do change,” Bush says. “Ideological struggles are won, but it takes time. It just takes time. You look back at the ‘50s, I don’t know how evident it was that — I guess there was — when you think about it, there was a pretty stark change in the culture of the ‘50s and the ‘60s. I mean, boom. But I think something is happening here.”

“I don’t know,” he continues, “I’m not giving you a definitive statement — it seems like to me there’s a Third Awakening with a cultural change. And it would be interesting to get your observations if that is accurate or not accurate. It feels like it. I’m just giving you a reference point, if this is something you’re interested in looking at. It feels like it to me. I don’t have people coming in the rope line saying, ‘I’d like a new bridge, or how about some more highway money.’ They’re coming to say, ‘I’m coming to tell you, Mr. President, I’m praying for you.’ It’s pretty remarkable.”


My answer:

"Faith shows us the reality of good, and the reality of evil," President Bush said at a prayer breakfast shortly after 9-11. "Some acts and choices in this world have eternal consequences. It is always, and everywhere, wrong to target and kill the innocent. It is always, and everywhere, wrong to be cruel and hateful, to enslave and oppress."

Abraham Lincoln spoke to the notion of divinity's mandate to vigilance when he remarked on the violence of the abolitionist, John Brown in his Cooper Union address.

He said, "An enthusiast broods over the oppression of a people till he fancies himself commissioned by heaven to liberate them."

"Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed," he continued. "There is a judgment and a feeling against slavery in this nation, which cast at least a million and a half of votes. You cannot destroy that judgment and feeling - that sentiment - by breaking up the political organization which rallies around it."

Lincoln suffered for the success of his war at the point of a terrorist's gun. It would be impossible to argue that he died merely for the defense of territory. The surrender of the southern army brought freedom for the majority of slaves. And, no matter how we judge the immediate impact of Lincoln's proclamation, the victory led to the emancipation and the subsequent empowerment of Africans in America.

Yet, Lincoln believed that adherence to the principles of democracy would distinguish any victory in a manner that would provide for the durability of the Union and foster a national affirmation of the rights of the individual.

"It was that," he said, "which gave promise that in due time the weight would be lifted from the shoulders of all men."
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. Third Awakening' - Third Reich?
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. said the same, "Third Awakening" == "Third Reich"
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. That is absolutely, absolutely what I first thought when I read the piece.
:scared:
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. the word Bush is looking for is "trend" or "fad"
as in, being super-Christian is a trend, or a fad.

Its part of mainstream culture.

Everyone talks about their "walk with Jesus" now...


Too bad nobody actually believes it.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I prefer the term "popular mania"
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 11:23 AM by kenny blankenship
or "mass hysteria"
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. It started just after 9/11, Christianity got really aggressive
and that's when I started noticing more prominent ads for Christian rock and compilation albums, and when I started hearing more and more people boast about their "prayerfulness" and their dedication to their faith.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. collective psychosis
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Too bad he does
Holy missions usually don't turn out well.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. he doesn't believe in any of it. He just uses it
no one, and I mean no one, in the US is a "true Christian"
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misternormal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Yeah... look at the Crusades...
wait... middle east... armies sent there...

Holy shit... The "Bush Crusade"... failing like all the rest.
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. You obviously haven't been to the South in a while.
A sizeable percentage of the people there do believe it. It's something I notice every time I go back to visit, and it's been steadily growing over the last 15 years or so. People in that part of the country have always tended towards fundie-ism anyway, but it's got me really worried nowadays because of the mean-spiritedness combined with the victim mindset ("Oh, everybody's persecuting Christians now!") that characterizes a lot of it.

In other words, to many of these folks, their actions are deeply un-Christian, but they truly, truly do believe they're "walking with Jesus". Unfortunately, the Jesus they believe in is more like Rambo on crystal meth than the Lamb of God. Their Jesus carries a sword and smites unbelievers, and in His absence they'd be happy to step in and take his place. Those damn Left Behind books have a lot to answer for.

Have you ever had a look at the "End Times Chat" section of the Rapture Ready website message board? I look in there from time to time to see what the latest craziness is and never know whether to laugh or cry.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Actually, that expalins why that version of Christianity became mainstream
because, if you think about it, when you watch bornagains and rapture-ready preachers or listen to what the believers say, all you have to do to get to heaven is say you believe in Jesus, and tell everyone you know how Christian you are.

They don't actually have to live classic Christian lives, at all.

They just have to say they believe.

And that's enough to get into heaven.


And, since they feel so good about their afterlife, they become arrogant, and that's why they boast about their religious convictions.

Its a massive ego trip
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. It's the arrogance I hate the most,
their smug sureness that they're the elect, the chosen, God's favorites who are going to heaven. If I were God, they'd be the last people I'd want to hang out with.

And don't you just know that once they got to heaven, there would be fistfights over who's the most holy and who gets to sit next to Jesus at dinnertime.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. The arrogance goes farther than you imagine, then
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 12:15 PM by ComerPerro
I heard one pastor, the really fat one, Hagee?

He was talking about how in heaven people would have different robes, made of different materials, depending on the type of life they led, and how his robe was going to be very nice, but others would not have nice robes.

He said that you would be able to look at someone and instantly know what kind of person they were on earth by the robe they are wearing.


So, in fundie heaven, there is still class and status and divisions between...


EDITed in afterthought: These people simply do not believe in equality of any kind, do they? They aren't capable of it. Even in heaven, someone has to be better and someone has to be worse than them
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yeah, I've said that before (maybe even to you
in another thread recently!) that for people like that, it's like the old song by (I think) Kris Kristofferson - I think it was "Jesus was a Capricorn" - that said in the chorus "Everybody's got to have somebody to look down on". For the fundies, that applies even in heaven.

Personally, I believe that if there were a hell, Hagee, Dobson and Robertson would deserve to be in the hottest pit.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. So, God is telling Bush that he is destined to the same fate as
...Lincoln? Bush believes he will be a martyr and Americans will then have a spiritual awakening?:wtf: Bush is most definately mentally unstable.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. Baylor University: "Religion Thriving in the US"
Edited on Wed Sep-13-06 11:33 AM by sparosnare
CNN's "faith and values" correspondent reported on Baylor's study this morning (feature coverage!), which came out yesterday. Of course I don't believe anything coming from Baptist Baylor, clearly put out there to support the idea of a Christian Nation and Bush's messed up idea of governing.

"Researchers at Baylor University found nearly 92 percent Americans believe in God or a higher power, and their image of who God is shapes their lives in profound ways.
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

Among the study's conclusions: that Americans see God in one of four distinct ways. Sixteen percent see God as critical, 23 percent as benevolent, 24.4 percent as distant and 31.4 percent as authoritarian."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14805530/
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I seem to remember a similar percentage who believe we are descended
from aliens :silly:
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
10. "Bush rejected sending troops to find Osama bin Laden," says the article.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. post it.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. In last para of first reference given by OP:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/12/AR2006091201594_pf.html

The White House did not release a transcript of Bush's remarks, but National Review posted highlights on its Web site. On another topic, Bush rejected sending more troops to the Afghanistan-Pakistan border areas to find Osama bin Laden.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. put it in another post
it deserves it's own. I wish there was more to it than the blurb. Gotta get that interview.
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filer Donating Member (444 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
13. Bush understands evil.
He and his henchmen epitomize it. We're praying too, Mr. Bush, that you're not allowed to do further damage.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry, folks. Bush is absolutely right here.
"a confrontation between good and evil, including me"--He admits it: Evil includes him.
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Tyo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
18. He's right about the confronation between good and evil
Thing is, it's taking place in America not in the Middle East and the evil is not Islamic theocrats and "fascists", it's Christian theocrats and our own Fascists.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
19. Maybe what he senses is all the people praying he'll be impeached
As the result of a sweeping Democratic victory this November.

Not to mention all those people praying that the U.S. can survive him and his cabal.
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Raffi Ella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. Jesus FUCKING Christ
If there were any justice in the world george bush would be struck down by a bolt of lightening as he spoke these EVIL words.
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GreatCaesarsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
23. religious nuts are the only people he's allowed to meet!
"he notices more open expressions of faith among people he meets during his travels, and he suggested that might signal a broader revival similar to other religious movements in history."
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. Bush wrestling more ferocious strawmen
"Bush’s faith in the rightness of his strategy in the broader war is deep-seated — it is, indeed, a product of faith. “Freedom is universal,” Bush says. “And I recognize there’s a debate around the world about the kind of — whether that principle is real. I call it moral relativism, if people do not believe that certain people can be free. I mean, I just cannot subscribe to that. People — I know it upsets people when I ascribe that to my belief in an Almighty, and that I believe a gift from that Almighty is universal freedom. That’s what I believe.”


Just the other day I was telling my daughter, "Hon, certain people cannot be free." It must have been the umpteenth time last week I expressed that belief.

:sarcasm:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. he believes certain people's lives are less important than others
His dual invasions and occupations have had collateral killing of innocents which his regime justifies as an acceptable consequence of that 'freedom' he's spreading around. He does subscribe to that.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Since it obviously didn't take the first two times...
the third time is not necessarily the charm.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. "a group of conservative journalists..?
I thought they were all "fair and balanced"? When can we get a "group of liberal journalists"?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. !!!
perfect
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well, He Used One Of The "Idiot Phrases"
He used "moral relativism". HEY SILVERSPOON! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MORAL RELATIVISM, AS COMPARED TO ANY OTHER MORALITY! (Sorry for shouting!)

All morality is relative. If it wasn't Silverspoon wouldn't have dropped bombs on Baghdad. In his mind, a terrorist blowing up a bus with a bomb on his person is bad. Dropping bombs on bad guys is good! This idiot doesn't even know that he is making a RELATIVE JUDGMENT! Get it, Georgie?

The context for every decision, good, evil, selfish, magnanimous, or whatever, is everything! A soldier accidentally shooting someone while firing back at the enemy (friendly fire) is considered excusable. The context is why that guy isn't a murderer.

Without context and situations, morality doesn't even come into play. If i'm alone in the woods, i don't have to do the moral thing and give a homeless guy a dollar. He's not there! Only i am. On the streets of a major city, suddenly i have to make a decision, based upon morality, whether i should ignore that person or give him the buck. Without the situation, the relative set of circumstances, if you will, morality isn't any issue.

Or course, his audience was a bunch of cretins who think this phrase has some meaning. So, once again, he gets away with having the intellectual depth of onion skin.
The Professor
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
35. These fuckers are going to start a civil war to get what they want.
50 years from now the USA will have broken up, bet on it.
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triguy46 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
36. No doubt, he got this directly from God, as past messages to him have come
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. Commentary: Bush and the 'Third Awakening'
By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Wednesday, September 13, 2006; 1:22 PM

Bush often calls attention to all the people who he meets who say they are praying for him, and that's how the subject apparently came up yesterday. As Rich Lowry and Kate O'Beirne blogged for the National Review: "He jokingly noted, 'Now maybe the only people who pray in America come to my events.'"

National Review senior editor Jeffrey Hart touched on the issue of revivalism in an op-ed for the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette last year. He wrote that Bush "has brought religion into politics in a way unknown to recent memory. And he has owed both of his electoral victories to his Evangelical Christian base. This indispensable base has profoundly affected his policies, foreign and domestic.

Hart wrote that the "Third Awakening of Evangelicalism believes all sorts of bizarre things, such as the imminent end of the world, the second coming of Christ, the sudden elevation of the just to heaven and the final struggle of Good versus Evil in Jerusalem: Armageddon. We thus have the immense popularity of the Left Behind series of novels by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins."

Concentrating mostly on the public health-related effects of Bush's Evangelicalism, Hart wrote that it "has real and often dangerous effects on the world in which the rest of us . . . live."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/09/13/BL2006091301177_pf.html
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