I want to make this crystal clear, microwave weapons ARE LETHAL...

[originalpckelly]

they can be as lethal, if not MORE lethal than traditional bullet based weapons. I DON'T mean brain cancer, I'm mean instantaneous death. (Or a slow boil.)

I study physics just as a personal interest, and from that I know that the ONLY THING that determines whether they are lethal or not, is the amount of energy used.

If they use the wavelength which will cause pain, they use the right wavelength to boil a person alive, and possibly explode their heads. (I mean this literally.)

They can be used for non-lethal measures, but they can also be used for lethal measures. The only thing that separates the two is the amount of energy used. Think of it like a radio:

You can change the radio. They already have the right radio station. The weapons they plan on using are loud and cause the equivalent of ear pain. They can however turn up the volume to cause permanent hearing loss.

Now that is the metaphor. In the real weapon, it doesn't take that much energy as it does with the audio wave to cause damage. Most of us probably have microwaves in our kitchens. If you were inhumane enough to put some sort of mouse in there (Mickey ;-)) you would almost certainly see that mouse explode. This will happen to people if they are exposed to a short burst of high energy microwaves.

It is also possible with only a tiny bit more energy than the weapons will use, to boil someone slowly. In that case the pressure probably wouldn't build up in the various body cavities to cause a person to explode, so they would suffer slowly until they passed out, or died of a heat-related death.

THIS IS REAL! That is why these weapons CANNOT, ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT BE USED! Unlike bullets, you don't really have to reload if you have a power source. Unlike bullets, which are limited in their ability to penetrate a number of people, these microwaves have the ability to kill large swaths of people at the same time.

This is very serious, and something must be done to stop it. These weapons are the sort of thing Saddam Hussein and Hitler would have despotic-wet-dreams over. This is a tool of tyranny, because it enables a few or one person to keep hundreds at bay. WE CANNOT ALLOW THIS! It may very well determine the fate of our country and our people.

[LynnTheDem]

1. Killing us softly

According to the Marine Times, the VMADS -- called the "people zapper" -- may be capable of inflicting far more than brief discomfort when not used as directed; that is, for no more than three seconds.

"The amount of time the weapon must be trained on an individual to cause permanent damage or death is classified." (In other words, it only takes one 18-year-old recruit with a sick curiosity or a slow watch to turn the thing deadly.)

In 1995, in fact, a military spokesman qualified the concept of "non-lethal" weapons: "It's really less lethal ... because these weapons if improperly used could be lethal."

Marine Col George Fenton, likewise, is on record in the May 2000 National Defense Magazine saying the term "non-lethal ... does not mean that they can't kill or injure."
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2001/03/newshole1.html

Although high-powered microwave weapons are designed to destroy the electronic equipment used by enemy command centers, their effect on humans in the vicinity is less clear.

The U.S. military says HPM weapons are non-lethal, but that doesn't mean free from harm. The U.S Marines Corp. is currently developing a microwave-based weapon that inflicts a brief, intense burning sensation on the target's skin similar to touching a hot light bulb. Mounted on Humvee, the weapon is designed for crowd dispersal. The temperature settings are variable, however, and can be set as high as 130 degrees F.

Given that temperature variability, it's possible that someone in the path of a HPM burst might be cooked like a meal readied by a microwave oven.

Source: Scientific American, February 18, 2003
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000CBC91-B6FD-1E51-A98A809EC5880105

What happens to all the people driving vehicles on busy streets when they're "knocked off their feet" during rush-hour by being hit with maximum unbearable pain just because they are within that radius; is it murder when they all crash and die?

Will the US government offer tips on how to deal with and explain to children who are caught within the radius, for example playing on the swings in the playground, when they are suddenly hit with extreme maximum pain out of nowhere? Will they offer suggestions as to how we convince our traumatized and terrorized kids they can safely go outdoors again? Will the US govt pay for the years of counseling for kids traumatized, terrorized, and neurotic, living in fear 24/7 that the pain may suddenly hit them again?

Will pregnant mothers who are within the radius experience such maximum pain that they spontaneously abort be charged with murder as "late-term abortion"?

How about the ill, the elderly, the handi-capped and the infirm; when they are "knocked off their feet" by the maximum pain and fall and break open their heads; will the US govt pay for all funeral arrangements, or if they survive, for all medical and future care treatments?

What happens to those who happen to be walking next to busy streets and are "knocked off their feet" into traffic and run over?

How about high-rise window washers and construction workers? Or crane operators who may happen to be lifting tons-heavy objects when they're hit with this maximum pain & lose control of their cranes; will the US govt pay for all persons & property killed/damaged by being crushed?

What about infants and toddlers who aren't able to "flee" from the pain and are "cooked like a microwave meal"?

And this of course is assuming the WMT operator has a very accurate watch, knows EXACTLY the number of seconds before the "maximum pain" becomes death, isn't distracted for even 1 second, and isn't overly curious and/or a psychopath who wants to see what happens if the gun goes on for just another few seconds longer...

But sure...do it to Americans first, so America realizes what's done to others in our names.

[peacetalksforall]

2. Exploding, boiling, phosphorizing, crushing, water-boarding,

forcing sex, shocking by electricity and inhumaness, dogs, sensory deprivation. Gassing seems kind. How long is the country going to wait?

[Pachamama]

8. I feel sick....

:puke:

I'm living in a nightmare that I can't wake up from....can any of this possibly be happening in my country??? Can it possibly be that my own government would be doing this to its own people??

:cry: :puke: :scared:

[fed-up]

3. kick, this needs more Rs, needs to be read by EVERYONE! nt

[originalpckelly]

4. I think it is basically like calling a gun a non-lethal weapon.

Yeah, you can manage to shoot someone without killing them, but it is also really easy to kill them. The same applies with this type of weapons.

[ancient_nomad]

5. WTH is happening in our country?

This is soooooo sick and frightening. Just when you think it can't get any worse, more of this comes to the forefront. Thank you for posting this. I am going to start printing this crap out and leave copies of it in the supermarket carts.

KnR


:kick:

[originalpckelly]

6. If you didn't already see it, here is the AP...

story that originally informed us all that they were planning on testing these weapons here:
"
Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before they are used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.

Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions in the international community over any possible safety concerns, said Secretary Michael Wynne.

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," said Wynne. "(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

The Air Force has funded research into nonlethal weapons, but he said the service isn't likely to spend more money on development until injury issues are reviewed by medical experts and resolved.

Nonlethal weapons generally can weaken people if they are hit with the beam. Some of the weapons can emit short, intense energy pulses that also can be effective in disabling some electronic devices.

On another subject, Wynne said he expects to pick a new contractor for the next generation of aerial refueling tankers by next summer. He said a draft request for bids will be put out next month, and there are two qualified bidders: The Boeing Co. and a team of Northrop Grumman Corp. and European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co., the majority owner of European jet maker Airbus SAS.

The contract is expected to be worth at least $20 billion.

Chicago-based Boeing lost the tanker deal in 2004 amid revelations that it had hired a top Air Force acquisitions official who had given the company preferential treatment.

Wynne also said the Air Force, which is already chopping 40,000 active duty, civilian and reserves jobs, is now struggling to find new ways to slash about $1.8 billion from its budget to cover costs from the latest round of base closings.

He said he can't cut more people, and it would not be wise to take funding from military programs that are needed to protect the country. But, he said he also encounters resistance when he tries to save money on operations and maintenance by retiring aging aircraft.

"We're finding out that those are, unfortunately, prized possessions of some congressional districts," said Wynne, adding that the Air Force will have to "take some appetite suppressant pills." He said he has asked employees to look for efficiencies in their offices.

The base closings initially were expected to create savings by reducing Air Force infrastructure by 24 percent.



By Lolita C. Baldor, Associated Press Writer"

[tridim]

12. Shouldn't that Air Force secretary be in Leavenworth? n/t

[ninkasi]

15. Why don't they just experiment on each other?

If these nimrods think this is such a good thing to have, but are afraid to use it on the international community, instead of using it on us citizens, why don't they practice on each other? They're the ones who love these vile toys, let them do the experimenting on each other.

They want to avoid "raising questions" abroad, but are willing to maim, kill, and terrorize us. These people are all psychotic. They have no business being in control of weapons like this, and I can imagine them trying to create situations where they will have "unruly crowds" to practice on, the evil shits.

[leftchick]

21. Wynne is a fundie evangelical nutjob!

where the fuck is congress about this??

[gumby]

7. I read about the development of this crowd control

method being developed a while back.

It makes me wonder what those who want their guns to protect themselves form the government will do when they get microwaved? I don't think you can use defensive fire against a microwave. Those gun-guys are such sillies.

[Pachamama]

9. Wear Tinfoil/Aluminum foil suits???

:tinfoilhat:

Hey, they don't work too well in the microwave....just wondering.... :shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Twin strips of mylar and aluminum foil...

with a one inch layer of unpopped popcorn kernels inside.


...


Oh, C'mon, someone was going to say it.

[Pachamama]

13. Popcorn, eh?

:popcorn:

Okay, your right, someone had to say it....and as we all know, humor is important in the darkest of times to keep us sane.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. I think that line about testing it via crowd control purposes in the US

is creepy as hell, if it can be confirmed.

[Pachamama]

16. I am willing to bet that they are beyond the "testing" phase and have

actually started using it in various situations on people - without their knowledge.

It has been discussed here on DU on many occasions about people at some protests in Washington and elsewhere reporting strange symptoms and illness and dizziness.

Creepy as hell is an understatement. My guess is that like everything in this administration, they are doing it long before they admit it and then they send people out to float the idea in the media as a trial balloon and see what people's reactions are.

Everyone needs to know about this and let the administration and the media know this is not acceptable.

I swear its bizarro world...I have watched just in the last hour the video tape of Bush with Lauer on the topic of torture, heard our administration and President justify torture and secret prisons, read the AP report of the use of these microwave weapons on civilians and then read about how Cheney was sent to break the deadlock of Senate on the surveillance and torture use and prosecution. Then I turned on the Radio to listen to the voice of Michael Chertoff talking about how the next attack will most likely come from a weapon of mass destruction (as opposed to a plane).

:WTF:

I swear, things are getting creepier, scarier and more frightening by the moment. So do you think that when the masses of Americans finally have had enough and take to the streets that these Microwave weapons are going to be used on them?

:eyes:

[Leopolds Ghost]

40. How can a microwave weapon defend against the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man?

Armed with non-lethal marshmallow foam crowd control device?

(cue Michael Bay:) In scene 2, they both EXPLODE.

[troubleinwinter]

11. I also study physics

Would you care to provide some links so that we might brace our discussion with something other than "THIS IS REAL!"

Thank you in advance.

[originalpckelly]

17. Thanks for keeping a level head,

:hi: I hope you'll understand why I was so very outraged at this proposal:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Air-Force-Weapons.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

I have a feeling that my outrage spilled over into my account, and "THIS IS REAL!" was the result. Thanks again :hi:

[OneBlueSky]

18. understand this . . . BushCo DOESN'T CARE! . . .

it's all part of their long-term strategy to eliminate any and all opposition (that's us) and retain power permanently . . .

it's what God told them to do . . .

[converted_democrat]

19. Does anyone here remember the thread about the bodies in

Lebanon that were blackened and shrunk, but they could not figure out why? I believe that it was Lebanon (guess it could have been Iraq), but I could be wrong about the details, it was within the last three months, and the article was either in LBN or GD, and it might have been moved to the 9-11 forum. The people that examined the bodies said they had never seen anything like it, and that all moisture had been removed from the bodies, and the bodies had shrunk to half their normal size or more, and no one could figure out why. Wonder if there could be a connection?

[converted_democrat]

20. Found the thread, wonder if there is a connection?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2415439

snip-
"We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man," said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital.


edited to add this story too-
http://rawstory.com/comments/19173.html

[peacetalksforall]

27. Phosphorous in Fallujah and supposedly in Lebanon. ?? nt

[lonestarnot]

32. hmmmm. I also wonder....

[Swamp Rat]

22. Only monsters like Stalin, Hitler, Mao et al would ever use it.

EMP weapons have potential to cause great harm to an entire continent or more.

Imagine if every electronic circuit was permanently fried. The world would be in utter chaos.

[hootinholler]

23. When I was in the Navy...

I really should start this out with "and this is no shit" (inside navy joke, sorry).

Anyway, I was on a training base with several radar sets. One radar tech could see the antenna from the controls and would wait for seagulls to land on it, crank the power up and pulse it to watch them explode.

-Hoot

[glitch]

35. What an asshole. Next step serial killing. Guess he fit right in with this

admin.

[xchrom]

24. the right wing religious wackos

in charge of the air force -- NEED TO GO.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

26. not while Colorado Springs continues to wash their brains.

that place is scariest of all.

whose orders will they follow? a general's or a religious leader's?

[soothsayer]

25. So you can set your phaser on 'stun' or 'kill' eh?

[Sugar Smack]

28. THANK YOU for this, honey. People thought I was crazy when

I brought this to their attention a few months ago. They really thought I was making this shit up.

[originalpckelly]

33. I know it sounds like futuristic Sci-Fi, but we are living in the future..

these things are possible. And thanks to the development of cheap microwave ovens with compact, but powerful magnetrons these weapons are far more likely than they were years ago.

[undergroundpanther]

38. Sugar

I went through that ridicule too. But now will they listen? Will they CONTINUE to blow everyone who says something they assume is "conspiracy" off? Or will they at least give it a LISTEN before they blow off information such as this, Microwave weapon that can so easily kill American citizens off in droves? I hope so.Our future depends not on pooh poohing what these right wing psychopaths are capable of,but confronting it and thinking of ways to defend ourselves against this sadistic tyranny and technology of a sick mind..

Why have The Bush thugs been so secrecy obsessed,telling so many lies,and defying law? So where has the black budget been spent? Congress says it does not know,but they SHOULD.IF Congress was doing thier JOB. The Black Budget sucks out MAJOR tax money from this country,.for WHAT?

I Say, YOU FIND OUT right NOW,CONGRESS what is being done in secret with OUR taxes.. Stand UP for the PEOPLE , NOW, you lazy, incompetent,ignorant,self serving,apathetic,rich, spineless, shit heads!


For WE KNOW Bush-co has been busy building the base and weaponry for dominating,subduing and enslaving American people and the rest of the world. ON the TAXPAYER dime. Just like PNAC says they want to do.PNAC wants to RULE THE WORLD.That is the definition of TYRANNY!!

But yet how do we hear of weapons like this ? By some yahoo who is called a conspiracy nut until, THE TRUTH COMES OUT.Than people get concerned and WRITE THIER OBLIVIOUS CONGRESSPEOPLE about it.

And always it's Congress who didn't know about it. The Media certainly isn't gonna say ANYTHING about it ,they are not free anymore.

What lazy asshole on the hill didn't read the fucking memo or even ask to SEE it before they VOTED it into LAW? WHY did the "elected Representatives" LET US DOWN with their oblivious comfortable apathy? Why did Congress let tyranny dupe them? Oh yes the Republicans played games, they made Dem's look bad, they robbed the constitution from us by hiding shit in reams of papers no human could read,and you dumb ass congress RUBBER STAMPED IT INTO LAW without READING IT??? ! HOw Could you be so IRRESPONSIBLE! YOU let the republicans play games with laws and YOU did not stop them,why?

Was it because Congress likes having the perks of power too much? Wanted to keep that kick ass congressional health insurance,and all the other perks of privilege, Concerned about something as stupid as "legacy", than to grow some spines and stand up and challenge the ignorant constituencies with career endangering truth telling? .And Did congress like getting the GIFTS and bribes more than rejecting the bribes of the corporate gravy train..? Yes?

A Congress of incurious,uninformed,charismatic cowards just sold our freedoms away for a bit of ethical cowardice..and for the desire for re-election they failed to tell the truth or even stand up against tyranny..They are morally corrupted,to not stand up and speak out against the tyrants and corporate money bribers corrupting the halls of power alongside them.They should be ASHAMED.

[Bridget Burke]

39. Back in the 70's, my Mom worked at an AF Base....

Somehow, she got to answer the phone when members of the public called in to report weirdness. Like UFO's, etc. Most of these folks were obviously worse for drink or otherwise impaired.

One repeat caller was a lady who insisted that someone was shooting "Raytheon Rays" through her ovaries. Of course, Raytheon makes one of these microwave weapons.

Just an odd coincidence. I agree that microwave weapons are real threats.

[arikara]

46. Schizophrenic people often believe that they are being attacked

by rays of some sort. They are also often highly intelligent, intuitive and very creative. I often wondered if they weren't actually ill at all but perceiving a different actual reality than most of us. Like people that have shamanic type experiences.

Its hard to explain.

[C_U_L8R]

29. There should be a UN resolution

the people need to be protected from their corrupt governments.

[Sugar Smack]

30. Kick

:kick:

[mopinko]

31. anybody still having trouble

with MIHOP after reading this? fuck. i can't wait to get these fucker to the hague.

[Tigermoose]

34. I, for one, welcome our corporate overlords...

May God save us poor consumers.

[rosesaylavee]

36. Ok people, get a grip and start

writing your congressmen and senators. This is a wingnut that most sane people would not agree with - no matter which side of the aisle they sit on.

We need to act today on this. I sent the following to both my senators:

Dear Senator,

In case you missed this crazy bit of news, please read what our Air Force Secy thinks is ok to do to US Citizens. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html

Please do **something** about this maniac?

Doesn't have to be tome - just get them the information that this guy needs to be reigned in immediately with an apology to the American public.

[Recursion]

37. Pacemakers?

Wouldn't they probably kill anybody with a pacemaker? Or some other life-preserving technological device that can be harmed by EM?

Maybe we could finally get rid of all those pesky old people who keep demanding the government live up to their commitments to them :sarcasm:

[Leopolds Ghost]

41. Boston Massacre II :-(

Unfortunately, the temptation to do evil and the general apathy of the American public is such that something like this is bound to happen -- and when it does, it will cause plenty of Americans to suddenly lose interest in politics after a stern talking-to by their relatives, just like after Kent State -- or after the purges by Stalin, Khomeini, etc.

[Danger Mouse]

42. Ugh.

Yeah, the effects of this weapon, if misused (and you know it will be), would be pretty horific. Can you just imagine some sadistic, twisted solider or cop cranking it up all the way just to watch people fry...or more likely, explode? I never imagined something horrible like this being possible.
:tinfoilhat:

[jmowreader]

43. I assume the weapon has a timer on it

This to protect the weapon, not the people in front of it...magnetrons cheap enough to sell to the government have short duty cycles--the ratio of on-time to off-time. If Private Joe Schmuck is standing up there just frying people left and right with his ray gun, eventually he's going to blow the magnetron in it. And while he's standing there attempting to get the spare into the ray gun, the people he didn't fry will crawl up on the vehicle he's frying people out of, pull Private Schmuck out of the roof hatch, and beat him to death.

So what'll happen is the army will know how long you can zap someone before they explode...say it's five seconds...but they won't tell Private Schmuck this because they KNOW he'll set the timer to six seconds every time he turns the weapon on. They also know how long it takes to cause excruciating pain--say, three seconds. They will tell Private Schmuck to set the timer to three seconds and fire at will. Eventually, the people who aren't in the line of fire of this thing will attempt to beat the operator to death, so at that time the riot scene commander will order the timer set to four and a half seconds--on the verge of death, and a time which will cause permanent damage. You probably won't see ever again if you're irradiated with a nearly-lethal dose of RF. You'll probably lose every hair on your body. You'll definitely get major third-degree burns.

If that doesn't work, expect six-second bursts.

And if THAT doesn't work, they still know how to make nerve gas...

[GETPLANING]

44. Already in use in Iraq and Lebanon

Directed energy weapons are in use in Iraq and have been reported to have been used in Lebanon. Physicians in Iraq and Lebanon have reported unusual injuries and deaths that they have never seen before. Democracy Now had a segment on it a few weeks ago. Basically, it's a humvee with a powerful microwave transmitter on it that literally boils it's target with directed microwaves. Google it. I can't imagine a more painful death. What the fuck has this country come to?

[mistertrickster]

45. Wouldn't this require just massive, unbelievable amounts of energy?

And how would the people using it be protected against it?

If it's a beam, couldn't the beam be reflected back?

[AspenRose]

47. Evil.

Pure, unadulterated evil.