September 11, and a small group of religious fanatics attack Americans

[Richardo]

It was 1857, at The Mountain Meadows in Utah.

A band of Mormon 'enforcers' slaughtered about 120 men, women and children in an emigrant wagon train in Southern Utah, heading for California.

I'm reading 'Under the Banner of Heaven' by Jon Krakauer, and just came across that incident today. I was astonished by the coincidence.

[noonwitch]

1. I read a reference to that event in another book

"Leaving The Saints" by Martha Beck. Her father was Hugh Nibley, the Mormon apologist. She mentions the Mountain Meadows massacre as one of those historical events today's mormons don't like to talk about.

Her story is terrible, about how her father molested her, how he lied in a lot of his "scholarship" to back up church doctrine, how every mormon who goes through a temple ritual takes an oath that they would rather be killed (and pantomined the various methods of death) before they would reveal the rituals, etc. She also mentions how BYU purges academics if they discuss feminism or evolution.

Then there's the whole "garments" thing, the special underwear that will protect their bodies from sin and harm.

[Wanet]

4. I also loved "Leaving the Saints"

It's discussion of the squelching of academic freedom is even more interesting now in view of what happened to Prof. Steven Jones, who dared to question the official 911 explanation.
-- Janet

[eallen]

2. Excellent book. Every American should read it.

I had forgotten the date.

The good news is that Mormons are no longer at war with the rest of America. That should give us some hope for the future.

[Radical Activist]

12. Maybe Mormons

are not longer at war with the rest of America because there are no longer protestant ministers leading mobs against them and there's no longer US Presidents sending out federal troops without provocation. They didn't pick Utah because it had good farming land. They were driven out by violence. Much worse violence than what occurred at Mountain Meadows.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

3. Joseph Smith said he was a prophet, dum dum dum dum dum.

It's no use. I can no longer read anything about Mormons without that popping into my head.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. now I have THAT tune in my head

I suppose it is no worse than what was there before... I Will Survive...

sP

[IntravenousDemilo]

5. Next time one of those pairs of Mormon "missionaries" comes to my door,

I shall accost them with this information, and I won't stop belabouring the point until they surrender, or start crying, or renounce their bogus cult. I may even follow them from door to door (at a reasonable distance) and shout out pointed questions about the Mountain Meadows massacre.

So thank you for this.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. Let me tell you of when a pair of Mormon "missionaries" came to MY door.

They started with the standard stuff about how wonderful this religion is and what a difference it made in their lives, blah, blah... standard proselytizing stuff. Then went on to talk about the "Indians = Jews" thing, which I thought amusing, but shrugged it off. Just some different mythology.

Then they went on to explain the "Mark of Cain" thing. Yep. Black people are that way because God's curse on Cain was making him black.

That bit was supposed to have been excised from Mormon canon -- but, if they suspect a favorable reception to it, they WILL use it.

The LDS can kiss my fat pasty-white liberal atheist butt.

(The thing is, I am very Nordic-looking for Brazilian standards. Quite white, blue-eyed, tall, fat, with a foreign accent. I've lost count of people who approached me hoping for friendly validation of their racism, certainly based on my looks.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Isn't that a bit bigoted?

I mean, they didn't commit the Mountain Meadow Massacre.

Isn't that a bit like shouting at a mosque because of 9-11? Shouting at a church because of the holocaust?

And I wouldn't call it a bogus cult. It's now a bogus major world religion. Just like the rest of them.

[IntravenousDemilo]

9. Not at all. Not in the least.

I mean, they didn't commit the Mountain Meadow Massacre.

No, but it was ordered by their coreligionists on behalf of their religion, and apparently probably by Brigham Young himself (the only man brought to justice for the crime was Young's adopted son). I'd never even heard of the Mountain Meadow massacre until today. No Mormon has ever mentioned it to me on my doorstep. They tend to gloss over and, oh so very conveniently, neglect to mention the uglier parts of their history. Well, it's time to call them on it. It's not enough for them to testify to their "faith": they must also justify it. And until these "Saints" actually apologize, make reparations (they have billions of dollars to play with), and repent their evil ways, I'll keep hectoring them until the church falls on its own sword in remorse.

Which is kind of like what I have to do with Jehovah Witnesses. I've been a blood donor for 30 years. I know that my blood and blood products have saved lives, and I also know there's always a shortage. Hell, I even worked for Canadian Blood Services for a while. And when JWs speak out against blood transfusions because they consider it "eating" the blood, when they warn that altruistic blood donors will burn in hell along with blood recipients, when they consider my philanthropy to be something evil, I know what I must do: remind them constantly of their stupidity and hope that they'll realize that they're horrible people so they can leave their cult and start shaping up -- preferably as good, sensible, non-religious people.

Isn't that a bit like shouting at a mosque because of 9-11?

No, I'd certainly get loudly indignant, though, at members of a religion that anywhere recommends crushing certain people, me included, under a wall of rocks for being gay, or stone women to death because they'd been raped. Until they remove the offending passages in the Qu'ran, they should either remove themselves from my sight or apologize on a daily basis.

Shouting at a church because of the holocaust?

Not for the Holocaust, no, because Hitler wasn't getting his marching orders from the Vatican, unlike the case with the LDS-ordered Mountain Meadow massacre. Pius was merely an enabler for the Holocaust, and certainly doesn't deserve sainthood. But I'd berate them for the Inquisition, the Crusades, and any number of other horrors that were actually ordered by the Church. And again, they must justify belief in things unseen, because without justification, this irrational belief is no more than psychosis.

And I wouldn't call it a bogus cult. It's now a bogus major world religion. Just like the rest of them.

Yes, they are all bogus cults, equally worthy of disdain and serious ridicule.

[Radical Activist]

14. "probably"

There is no evidence proving that it was ordered by anyone in the LDS Church. So yes, blaming it on Mormons in general is very unfair. Your accusation that the people who did it got marching orders is speculative and the sensational things you're repeating form the book about Mormons makes the accusations more speculative. Its easy to make ANY religion sound bizarre to those who are unfamiliar with it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

10. I think it is yeah. What about pointing out the story in post #7 instead?

[texanwitch]

6. I found a ,movie about this subject.

Mountain Meadows Massacre
This compelling movie has won
11 awards and is now on DVD!
www.buryingthepast.com

[Radical Activist]

13. What does the book

say the motivation was for the massacre? I've met people who claimed to know a lot about it that shrugged their shoulders when asked why it was done.