Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I have a question about Sandy Berger, please help.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:30 AM
Original message
I have a question about Sandy Berger, please help.
A friend of mine, who can be way in the RW field on talking points about politics etc, stated that Sandy Berger was caught red-handed stealing documents from the White House. Supposedly said documents had something to do with counter-terrorism or lack thereof. Is this just another RW smear? Can someone please give me proof? As much as I try to reason with this person he just pouts off RW talking points from the stupid radio commentaries he listens to. Michael Savage is his favorite. Our discussion was centered around PT911 which I didn't watch and the debate started when I stated why I had no intentions of watching it. I had read enough to know it was inaccurate and wasn't going to waste my time on the "blame Clinton, poor lil ol' all-hat-no-cattle junior got dealt a helpless bad hand" propoganda. I don't get it, this person is extremely bright but I think he is brainwashed from the talk radio he listens to. Please help with the Sandy Berger thing. Peace.

PS also could someone provide a link to the Eric Schwartz song, Clinton Got A Blowjob? Thanks. Sisters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here's information from Media Matters:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Wow thanks for the link.
I've read about half and it is as suspected another RW smear he heard from Michael Savage. I keep telling him to stop listening to that RW wing baloney, he insisted MS is not RW wing but just speaks the truth about Repubs and Democrats. Unbelievable. Thanks for the link.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. ridiculous link
because the link was written BEFORE the case was adjudicated

since the above link was written, he PLEAD guilty.

did you read what he ACTUALLY admitted to ?

in his plea?

i thought not

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Please refer to the link below on his plea agreement
Copies and his hand-written notes not originals, placed in pocket not stuffed down pants.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. here's what was written on his guilty plea
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2005/April/05_crm_155.htm

he admitted he KNOWINGLY commited a crime

so, the oversight thing is silly

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Oh I'm not disputing that
I'm far too much of a skeptic to think he inadvertently took them. But i don't think he would have been stupid enough to stuff it in his pants. It's easier and draws less attention to place the papers in a pocket or folder. What is not clear to me is whether it was 5 copies of the same document from the archives or 5 copies he made of the archives documents. The plea agreement states he returned 2 copies and he also returned his hand-written notes but he shredded 3 copies. Oh well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Swiped from the National Archives vault
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. he copied his own notes which were archived, and took the copies
leaving the originals intact in the archives. He meant, he said, to refresh his memory before testimony to Congress.

How can you steal your own notes?

That talking point is a boondoggle. Nothing there. Besides, he fessed up and was punished. That's more than the Dauphin will ever do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. His notes, his ideas, but our property (and classified)
I did not know about his copying his own notes and leaving the originals intact, I thought he lifted the real stuff. Understood that it was dealt with, and water under the bridge, but the trolls from the right seem to be fond of water under the bridge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. nope, that was made very clear in the investigation--copies, not originals
but of course the RW loves to distort that point and pretend it was a huge security breach, when in fact nothing was taken OUT of the public record, and Berger was not revealing secret info to anyone who shouldn't have it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. He took multiple copies of
something that had been handed out at a meeting. The same something, only one of which would have had his (contemporaneous) notes on it.

The copies were part of the archives; had he wanted to make handwritten copies of his notes and take that copy home, that wouldn't have been the same kind of problem.

There's still suspicion about what the participants of the meeting wrote on the handout; since he destroyed them, we'll have to rely on his memory. Other copies of the handout were still present, so we know what the original said. Perhaps he intended to eventually remove all copies? Perhaps he wanted to remove the copies bearing notes made by selected officials? Perhaps he was going a bit batty?

He did fess up, though I think it was plea-bargained to avoid a brouhaha. Dunno. But the notes in the margins of the copies were the only copies of those notes extant.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Wait a minute
The prosecutors said that what he took were copies.

If he had taken, say, Janet Reno's copy of a memo presented to her at a briefing, along with her notes in the margins, would that not have been an original?

My understanding is that the archives retained all the originals, and that no information has been lost.

Why Berger would shred three of the copies and return only two is an interesting question. If he destroyed contemporaneous accounts of the meeting, he deserves significant punishment. If his intent was to destroy copies of classified materials (knowing that the originals were safe) because he didn't want them disseminated, that's something else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
67. Copies can be originals.
They were copies of a document. The markings were original. But the documents were copies. Hence the massiveness of the brouhaha: it wasn't just taking classified materials, it was taking potentially unique copies (there's that word again) of classified materials.

Very imprecise, this language business.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. Tricky tricky and none of the newspaper articles make it clear.
Language is a tricky business, however I did some digging and his plea states that the documents in question were copies of versions of the same document (other copies of said versions were also turned over to the 9-11 commission). In other words 3 of the copies of the versions were destroyed, 2 of the copies of the versions were later returned and another set of copies of the versions were handed over to the commission. Nothing happened to the original potentially unique versions. He also made hand written notes of material and took that home with him (which he later returned). The charge was unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents. I am not sure what destroying originals would be covered under.

At least thems the facts as far as I can discern. I certainly hope that no one is given the opportunity ever to destroy originals or unique versions of originals held by the archive, that would just be plain stupid.

http://unbillablehours.typepad.com/unbillablehours/files/bergerproffer.pdf

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. That was the breach--he wasn't allowed to take notes and
take them with him. So he sneaked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Exactly they were his own notes...and he should have had a right to copy
them. I wonder why we don't hear of the Repug Aide who broke into Dems Computer in the Senate and stole information. He was an aide to Orrin Hatch and was supposed to be prosecuted, but he finally resigned and is probably making millions as a lobbyist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. It's true -- But it wasnt necessarily nefarious
He did get caught taking out some sensitive security papers that he should not have removed.

He says it was an oversight on his prt, and he was borrowing them to work at home without realizig that it weas illgal to do so.

I'll take him a his word.

But right wngers will assume the worst.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. um, no
he stuffed the items in his pants; that is strong evidence that he was concealing them and knew it was wrong.

this is similar to how the law views shoplifting (and i have viewed it as a cop). there are times when people will walk right out of the store with a can of coke or something in their hand and forget to pay. quite often it is not shoplifting. they merely forgot.

but when they stuff items into their pants - it's CLEARLY shoplifting. because people don't do that with stuff they intend to buy

it was not an oversight, or he wouldn't have stuffed them in his pants

and if a rightwinger had done the exact same thing, i am convinced you would not have the same response

double standards. it's what's for breakfast

it has nothing to do with being right or leftwing. it has to do with looking at things DISpassionately vs. through a partisan lens

you are obviously doing the latter



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Apparently DU is not right-wing enough for you.
How long did you take to notice this?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. nothing
it has nothing to do with right or leftwing.

it has to do with viewing ACTS as a partisan (ie a false double standard) or as a rational human being

one can believe in leftwing causes, but not be mired in a smoky partisan lens that causes you to discount criminal activity by leftists, but condemn it when done by rightwingers. if that's your deficiency, so be it

sandy berger was wrong to stuff those items in his pants and try to sneak them out. he was caught. the idea that he stuffed them in his PANTS and walked out them as an "oversight" is laughable political spin

do you HONESTLY believe that? is your cognitive dissonance THAT absurd?

dishonest acts, crimes, etc. are wrong no matter who does them

HONEST rightwingers, for instance, wouldn't claim that watergate was not a crime.

HONEST leftwingers wouldn't claim that lying under oath was not a crime

etc.

do you dispute the facts - that berger stuffed these items INTO his pants and walked out and that this showed a Knowledge that his act was wrong and he was trying to conceal it?

do you?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. Sandy Berger is a leftist?
That being said, I agree with the essence of what you are saying. Although, beyond that he broke the law and did something that was clearly illegal, the degree of nefariousness of those deeds seems open to question (meaning his motivation for doing so). The courts interpretation seemed to be that he really did take them to prepare (knowing it was wrong) and then destroyed them because he couldn't or wouldn't sneak them back in. I can imagine more dastardly reasons, but I don't see any proof either way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
68. That's A Completely Unfair And Inappropriate Statement.
And if you don't think you'd view this case differently if it had been a neocon who was caught doing it, you would be surely lying to yourself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
15. Read the Media Matters and use some simple logic
As one who is constantly stuffing notes into my pockets, I can certainly understand how he did that.

And there's a matter of simple logic. What possible reason would he have for taking such a chance to "steal" documentrs or smuggle out his notes?

I'll put it into the category of stupid and absent minded, and maybe a little arrogent. But nohing more than that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Um, no to the "Um, no": He put notes in his pants POCKETS
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 12:04 PM by JHB
The Media Matters link above goes over it, and if that's not good enough go to more official sources on the matter.

When leaving he put his handwritten notes into his "jacket and pants" pockets. It didn't take long for the Limbots and Friends to morph that into the shoplifting-type pants-stuffing you note above.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. for pete's sake
the media matters link was written BEFORE he pled guilty

so why not go to a SOURCE document AFTER his plea, not a biased media source reporting on the ALLEGATIONs (that were later proved)

here...

i'll help you;.

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2005/April/05_crm_155.htm

you can rely on biased media shills, or wait and go to the actual report oN THE PLEA

the friggin media matters link was written BEFORE the facts were even out in the court

MY link was the result OF his guilty plea. where he acknowledged KNOWINGLY committing a crime

hth

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Alright. Mea culpa
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 12:34 PM by JHB
That was sloppy of me. You have my apologies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. And where does "stuffed in his pants" show up in the DOJ press release?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. You are right xgsnk, however there are slightly mitigating circumstances.
Sandy did not take ANY originals from the archives, but made copies. it was the copies that he stuffed in his underware because it is also illegal to make copies of anything in the archives. I'm sure Sandy knew he wasn't allowed to make copies either, but mentally excused his actions because the originals were allleft intact, and at least he BELIEVED he needed the info to prepare for his upcoming testimony.

Were his actions wrong? Yes, of course. But I believe it's a stretch to compare this with shoplifting, since nothing of material value or original belonging to someone else was taken. There was a law broken, but it was something other than theft.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. He didn't "Make" copies
He took five different copies that belonged to the archive. According to the Washington Post write up these were copies on one document altered five different ways to be sent out of the WH. I.E. One to the CIA, one to the FBI, one to the Justice Department, etc. etc. etc.

He destroyed three of the five. My theory is that those three were altered in a way that could be misconstrued that Clinton knew more than he did (or admitted) about the terror threat.

Berger always struck me as a fall on the sword for your boss kind of guy. Just from the times I saw him on TV in the 90s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. It's confusing because the originals were copies.
Berger didn't make copies; he took copies.

Imagine a meeting: Everybody gets a copy of the same text for review. People mark up their copies. After the meeting, the copies are retrieved. I've been in such meetings involving university personnel. Our copies were shredded. Papers from such meetings at the White House, they wind up in the archives.

Are the copies originals? No. But the mark-up makes them originals. The only reason apart from mild dementia for stealing multiple copies is if you're either after all the copies, or want the marking-up erased from the record.

Remember the Wilson-related article bearing Cheney's comments/questions about Wilson's trip being a 'junket'? Had that piece of paper been archived before anybody became interested in it Cheney could have come along and stolen it. Then one could say a simple copy--one of many thousands--had been taken and destroyed, no big deal. Or he was merely stealing his own notes, no big deal. Cheney might have replied that it wasn't anything of consequence. Who'd be able to challenge him?

There are reasons why even marked up copies are considered originals and stealing them is wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's like a giant game of telephone, isn't it?
Berger took copies of classified documents that he himself had written from the National Archives so that he could have them before testifying before the 9/11 commission. He wasn't supposed to do that and was given a large slap on the wrist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. The documents were written by Richard C Clarke....
But the notes in the margins belong to Berger.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. Rush Limbaugh always
refers to Sandy Berger as "Sandy Burglar."

I believe that after the investigation, Burger may have paid a fine, but was exonerated of 'evil doing.'

But, this 'Sandy Burglar' story has been repeated so often, it has become "real" history for the wing-nuts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Amazing how that happens
My friend can't stand Rush which makes the whole thing kind of funny but sad. I'm going to email the above link and tell him congratulations for pouting off RL talking points. He can't stand Ann Coulter either but I guess if Michael Savage says it it must but true :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. What bothers me the most is that the documents were lost.
I've never tried defending the Berger thing against a RWer, and really wouldn't like to. If one of theirs had done what Berger did, I'd have crucified him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. No documents were lost.
He made copies - copies were lost. The orginals were never removed at all, according to the media matters write-up posted earlier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. Well, not exactly.
What was lost was his hand-written notes from the time. That leaves it all open to speculation as to what was on them, and suggests he may have wanted to remove something incriminating.

As I said, if a RWer had done what he did, I'd have nailed him. I'm not going to hold a political ally to such a noticeably different standard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. Ah, thanks for the clarification
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. You are so wrong.
Please see my post #33 - please stop spreading rumors and false versions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
33. Guess you have NEVER done any real research, on your own
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 12:56 PM by merh
without a computer or a blog to point you in a direction.

If you get the chance, go to the National Achieves and try to do some research of your own.

If you bothered to do that, you would discover that the ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS are never provided to you and what copies that are provided to you are tracked by the National Achieves employees. They log the description of the documents (which may or not be bates stamped or have a bar code, depending on the inventory method used by the achieving agency), date when the documents are copied and who it is that has requested the copies and the staff monitors the COPIES. The ORIGINALS are returned to their storage folder or whatever means it is the agency uses to maintain the ORIGINAL documents. THE ORIGINALS ARE MAINTAINED AND NEVER GIVEN TO THE RESEARCHER OR THE AGENCY REQUESTING THEM. (The 9/11 commission was provided COPIES, never the originals.)

As Samuel "Sandy" Berger had a security clearance because of his job in Clinton's administration, he was allowed to see the COPIES of documents that were classified and that he or others working with him, had in fact created. I believe it was a memo that had four or five versions before the final memo was produced relative to terrorism and the Clinton's administration's policies. You or I could not see those documents if we asked to see them given we have no security clearance. BERGER had the proper security clearance and was PROVIDED COPIES and not the original documents.

When the National Achieve staff checked the copies log, they realized that Berger had removed the COPIES provided on two occasions. They contacted him and he provided them with some of the copies, but he had tried to destroy others by cutting the COPIES up with scissors in his office. (Which he admitted to in his misdemeanor case.) Why he removed the copies and tried to destroy some of them only he truly knows. I would surmise that he was accustomed to having the ability to remove copies of documents that were once his own and that he unwittingly walked out with them. Once he realized he had, he was either embarrassed or worried that he had copies of classified documents and he tried to destroy them, rather than admit his mistake.

There is a factual finding by the US Attorney General's office, the United States Attorney's handling the Berger misdemeanor case, that finds that the 9/11 Commission DID RECEIVE COPIES of the documents.

7. The National Commission on Terrorism Attacks Upon the United States (Also known as the 9-11 Commission) received copies of each document in the normal course of document
production.


If you would bother to actually research on your own and not settle for what a blog tells you or a message board argument contains, you can use the PACER court system and find the "Factual Basis for Plea" (proffer) filed on April 1, 2005, in the US District Court for the District of Columbia, Cause no 1:05mj-00175-DAR (Docket #6). The case is styled USoA versus Samuel R. Berger and it was a MISDEMEANOR charge of "unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents", not the grand felony scheme of trying to steal documents to protect the Clinton administration as is tauted by the vast rightwingnuts that worship the "dreamy weed in chief".

If anyone has the ability to scan the document and post it as an image, will be glad to provide you with the PDF copy I have.

In closing, you seriously need to try to think outside of the blog world and beyond what you are told.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Ahem, read ABOVE
Excellent post, merh, thanks for laying it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. I get so damned tired of folks regurgitating blogs and
message boards. The Berger court documents are on file and available to anyone that wants to invest $.08 a page for them. Just sign on to pacer and have at 'em.

I wish I had the capability to save them as images to post here but I don't. I do have the PDF documents.

I'm funny in that I like to THINK FOR MYSELF and make up my own mind based on the actual documents and court record and not on what someone tells me.

/rant off


thanks sandnsea :hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Thanks for that explanation
Wow Bravo! i've been waiting for the full answer to arrive and now I understand. The whole copies language was confusing. I didn't know the National Archives gives out copies of the originals. Thanks for that information. I read the plea agreement but still found the answering puzzling and without the information you provided I can see why even the well intentioned could have it wrong. Thanks again for the clarification. :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. As others said, Merh...excellent post!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. hi cat
:hi: thanks for the kind words :hug:

you don't know how they are so needed :loveya:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
13. From his plea agreement.....
He took five copies of the same document that had slight variations based on the audience they were to go too. He destroyed three of them with scissors. He NEVER stuffed anything into his socks or pants. I wonder if he was trying to get rid of some innocuous stuff that could be leaked and used against Clinton and Clarke (i.e. taken out of context).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16706-2005Mar31.html

snip
=================================================================
The deal's terms make clear that Berger spoke falsely last summer in public claims that in 2003 he twice inadvertently walked off with copies of a classified document during visits to the National Archives, then later lost them.

He described the episode last summer as "an honest mistake." Yesterday, a Berger associate who declined to be identified by name but was speaking with Berger's permission said: "He recognizes what he did was wrong. . . . It was not inadvertent."
=================================================================

snip
=================================================================
The terms of Berger's agreement required him to acknowledge to the Justice Department the circumstances of the episode. Rather than misplacing or unintentionally throwing away three of the five copies he took from the archives, as the former national security adviser earlier maintained, he shredded them with a pair of scissors late one evening at the downtown offices of his international consulting business.

The document, written by former National Security Council terrorism expert Richard A. Clarke, was an "after-action review" prepared in early 2000 detailing the administration's actions to thwart terrorist attacks during the millennium celebration. It contained considerable discussion about the administration's awareness of the rising threat of attacks on U.S. soil.
=================================================================

snip
=================================================================
The Berger associate authorized to speak with reporters described the chronology the former national security chief gave to the Justice Department in his negotiations with the Justice Department. On Sept. 2, 2003, the associate said, Berger put a copy of the Clarke report in his suit jacket. He did not put it in his socks or underwear, as was alleged by some Republicans last summer.

=================================================================
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. It seems to me that he may have
taken copies of the documents to review, make sure he knew what he needed to know. I don't see how taking copies, not originals, would have benefitted Clinton and Clarke in anyway. Thanks for the link.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Each copies had handwritten notes in the margins
Or they were altered based on the audience. He may have destroyed the three copies that were altered in a particular way that could have been requested by someone else and used erroneously in the 9/11 commission hearings.

Just a thought, but he did DESTROY with scissors, gov't property. Thus, his plea agreement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. The plea agreement does sort of read that way, doesn't it?
It does read that it was 5 copies of the same document in the archives that he removed, 2 returned and 3 shredded with scissors. If it's against the rules to copy documents from the archives how could he have made copies himself?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Please stop making assumptions that are based on your understanding
and not on what occurred or the facts as they exist on record in the US District Court.

See post 33.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. based on the newspaper article I just read....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16706-2005Mar31.html

----------------------------------------------
Archives officials have said previously that Berger had copies only, and that no original documents were lost. It remains unclear whether Berger knew that, or why he destroyed three versions of a document but left two other versions intact. Officials have said the five versions were largely similar, but contained slight variations as the after-action report moved around different agencies of the executive branch.
----------------------------------------------

This is not a blog, and that is what I was basing my assumptions on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. GO read the court documents on file
They contain the facts -- newspapers tend to slant the news too.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Do you have a link for the court documents?
I'm lazy or not so interested as to spend more then a few minutes searching (one of those two .. maybe both). Thanks in advance if you have one :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. See my post 33 for a description of the case
This is the link to Pacer https://pacer.login.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/login.pl?court_id=00idx

you have to sign up for an account, but the costs are minimal.

:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Aha you work for PACER don't you!
Whats your commission per page, 2 cents .. 3 cents ?? Oh, wait a second hmm public ... .gov, ok you're off the hook :)

Actually thats kind of cool
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. It really is a cool site
You can access all sorts of actual pleadings and documents on file in some of the most interesting cases filed in most federal courts through out the nation.

Like I said, I don't like to accept what is written by another if there is a chance that "facts" are of record and can be what they are, legitimate facts.

BTW - welcome to DU :hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Thanks
:hi:

I'm not a big fan of smilies, but I feel obligated to return the hello :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. I read they were copies, as in computer print outs, of the originals,
nothing (not even notes in the margins on the originals) was lost (WSJ article, but opinion). Perhaps thats mistaken .. anyone know?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. See Post 48...I think you are right.....
Then destroying three copies did not make any sense at all. Unless he didn't know he had the copies or it was inadvertant. Who knows.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feuerhexe Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. I can make sense of it, I think.
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 01:37 PM by Feuerhexe
Ok, you are Sandy Berger and you take computer print outs from the archive (of several original copies of the same document .. copies of copies) home with you because either a. (stupid, but not so evil) You don't want to be chained to the archive while you work with them or b. (bad and maybe evil) You want someone to see them who legally should not.

Now you have those papers in your office and either you (happy Sandy Berger glasses) want to destroy them so sensitive material does not get out as a result of your dumb decision to take the stuff with you or (evil Sandy Berger glasses) you don't want to get caught with the documents, so you destroy the evidence of your evil deeds. As to why destroy some and not others ... that I don't have a good guess at. It seems to me to point toward the scatter brained defense, but it could be that for whatever reason he wanted to keep a copy for himself to read in the future?

On edit: Square brackets makes things invisible? My whole commenting on my own statements style is going to suffer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. My goodness you have an interesting name: "FormerDem06?"
Wha?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. One day I am going to save my reponse to this post...
I am a NC Democrat who is refusing to vote Dem (or Repub) in North Carolina until Republican in Democrat's clothing House Speaker Jim Black resigns. I didn't realize I could never change my name so I'm stuck with it. I will however vote Dem in EVERY national election race I am allowed to cast a vote for.

Black is taking lobbyist money by the fistfuls (from big business) and he recently took a bunch of blank checks and passed them out on the Senate Floor. Top it all off with his recent buy out of a Republican at an International House of Pancakes, and I am very angry right now. Dems are not supposed to act this way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Thanks....
Agree with you on Jim Black. Makes one wonder how it's tolerated. Why it's tolerated.

Welcome to DU. Your name might have folks wondering if you are a Freep, though. Maybe you could PM Skinner and ask him if you can modify it so you don't get folks questioning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. "stuffing security documents in his pants and socks"
I wonder where did this start. Probably some right winger wrote an editorial and printed that as a half-hearted joke and the dittoheaded bushies have been repeating it ever since!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
36. please see my post #33
:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. ((((((((((THANKS)))))))))))) REALLY GREAT INFO!!!!!!!!
I understand. Thanks so much if I have questions in the future I will wait to hear from you! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. you are welcome
:hi:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. please pmail me if you need to.
I may not have the answers, but I will be glad to help you try to find them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sam Odom Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
61. Berger Will Plead Guilty To Taking Classified Paper
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 01:53 PM by Sam Odom
The deal's terms make clear that Berger spoke falsely last summer in public claims that in 2003 he twice inadvertently walked off with copies of a classified document during visits to the National Archives, then later lost them.

He described the episode last summer as "an honest mistake." Yesterday, a Berger associate who declined to be identified by name but was speaking with Berger's permission said: "He recognizes what he did was wrong. . . . It was not inadvertent."

...

The terms of Berger's agreement required him to acknowledge to the Justice Department the circumstances of the episode. Rather than misplacing or unintentionally throwing away three of the five copies he took from the archives, as the former national security adviser earlier maintained, he shredded them with a pair of scissors late one evening at the downtown offices of his international consulting business.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16706-2005Mar31.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC