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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 07:26 AM
Original message
"Through Our Enemies' Eyes"
The following information comes from the 2006 revised edition of Michael Scheuer' book "Through Our Enemies' Eyes: Osama bin Laden, Radical Islam, and the Future of America" (2002). The position that Mr. Scheuer, who headed the CIA's bin Laden unit, takes is -- not surprisingly -- a bit different than that expressed by the majority of our politicians, the media, the public, or DUers. I recognize that, but I am posting it this morning, five years after 9-11, in hopes that DUers will read it with an open mind, and consider the implications of Scheuer's stance. And, if it sounds worthy of further consideration, I strongly recommend that DUers go to a bookstore or library and read the revised edition of this book. Scheuer also authored "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror" (2004).


"....A decade ago, our leaders might have been given the benefit of the doubt for failing to understand the motivation of our enemy. Today, they merit no such indulgence from American citizens. They merit only scorn and contempt. President George W. Bush, Senator John Kerry, Vice President Dick Cheney, Senator john McCain, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, Senator Hillary Clinton, Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former President Bill Clinton, and their print and electronic media acolytes are, quite simply, lying to Americans. The motivations of these leaders to lie is not for me to say; I cannot see into their hearts or minds. On the basis of easily accessible evidence, however, that they are lying is irrefutable. .....

"One wonders if Americans would understand what Osama bin Laden meant, or believe he meant it, if the media presented the material of what he actually said to them. Many Americans and other Westerners appear to be nearing the point where few will attach much importance to what public persons say because the mass audience cynically believes everything is said for political advantage, shock value, or to promote a photo opportunity, not because the speaker is sincere and therefore has something worth considering. Even our public persons at times seem unable to hear, let alone understand, what foreign public persons are saying. When asked if the anti-U.S. anger of the Muslim world toward the United States was mistaken, for example, a senior U.S. State Department official said, 'I believe it is. I don't think we consider it unimportant, but we believe it is misplaced, misdirected, it misperceives American policy.' After reflecting, the official blithely disclosed he did not understand what bin Laden and other Islamists are saying. 'Maybe it means,' the official said, 'that we need to do a better job with our public diplomacy, in getting the story over to the people.' In other words, the world's unsophisticated and uninformed Muslims neither understand the altruism of U.S. foreign policy nor that the policy is designed for their own good. .....

"All of the explanations offered by the U.S. media for the rise and influence of Osama bin Laden basically come down to the same idea, to the same universal ideology: The United States is the center of the world; it is, in one way or another, responsible for what happens in the world; and anti-American internationalactors like bin Laden are violent, medieval, and unenlightened anachronisms because the overwhelming percentage of the world's population shares our values and wants to be like Americans. This distorted America-centric vision of reality is leading to a clash of civilizations, as outlined by Professor Samuel P. Huntington in his book 'The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order.' Some of Huntington's critics, however, have concluded that the non-Western world is suffering not from too much American universalism but from too little. Thus, in 'Foreign Policy', Richard E. Rubenstein and Jarle Crocker argue that the civilizational conflicts predicted by Huntington -- Christendom vs. Islam, China vs. the West, and so forth -- 'can be averted and can be resolved if they do occur.' More likely, according to the authors, is a 'violent clash of civilizations could well result from our continuing failure to transform the systems of inequality that make social life around the globe a struggle for individual and groupsurvival -- systems that feed the illusion that either one civilization or another must be dominant ..... Satisfying basic human needs on a global scale will require a powerful movement for social change -- a movement waiting to be born.' Surely the phrase 'our continuing failure to transform the systems of inequality' means nothing more than that we have so far failed to remake the whole world on the American pattern and must try harder.

"Though the delusion-producing nature of this ideological approach to international affairs is apparent -- it can be argued that bin Laden and other Islamists similarly suffer from their ideological lens -- the number of informed and learned people advocating it is astonishing, perhaps validating Gertrude Himmelfarb's definition of cognitive dissonance as 'the discrepency between reality and ideology that only truly learned and clever people can achieve.' ....."
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Can we ever find our way back? Thank you for posting this!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. K & R
:kick:

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Are other folks
watching MSNBC this morning? They are replaying the program from 5 years ago. It is interesting.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I was/am listening.
I just heard bubble-boy give his speech from 9:30 of that morning. He said not one word about recovery or helping those trapped in those buildings. He DID mention tracking down the terrorists responsible for this attack. Well George, it's been 5 years. Where in the fuck is the person responsible? Pardon my language.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. If this is
completely unedited, there is going to be an important bit of information coming up in the next hour, from an interview near the Pentagon.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The guy reporting from the Pentagon thought it was a bomb on the heliport.
It's so strange to watch this. I was supposed to be at work today, right in the World Financial Center, but my allergies kept me up most of the night. I took the day off. This seems so surreal watching. I shouldn't have taken that Claritin. It makes me edgy.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I am hoping
they show a clip relating to Pennsylvania ....
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. What was that plane circling D.C. that they mentioned.
I don't remember that happening. Some "mysterious" plane circling the city?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I don't remember that, either. There was so much chaos. n/t
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
43. It was a C130 that was chasing Flight 77
Most people don't know about this but it is documented in the 9-11 Whitewash Report.

It is the same C130 that the tried to catch up with Flight 93.

Yet, the OCT version claims that no planes were scrambled in time? Go figure.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. I never knew that. Thanks. n/t
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. Something new I've learned.
Thanks for the info. So much that went on that day that I haven't heard before.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. There are days
I wish I could say that.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. I turned it on. The calls on WJ were getting a little over the top.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. I Was Listening To John Meacham This Morning
Say it was not our fault and at the moment I heard him say it I thought, yes and no. Directly we did nothing to warrant it, but as ripples in a lake spread outward, past actions have lead us here. As for a clash of civilizations & OBL, we have always had people in this world who think they should determine how others live. The fundies in this country are waging a different sort of war on us, but harmful too, in that it would restrict us and try to control how we think and act.

As for the Towers, sitting there this morning watching the re=play of the morning we couldn't help ask, after the first plane hit and the time lapse until the second one did, why they couldn't have stopped the second one. The time between the two seemed an eternity.

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Mr. Meacham
views the world through the rose-colored glasses that Mr. Scheuer has suggested are smugged with ignorance.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. Who is the "Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine">
Tom Brokaw just reported that a they took credit for this, a report from Dubai?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I thought was was curious, too.
I hadn't remembered that.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. At this point, a senior member of that group called the media
and denied any involvement with these attacks.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I may be too tired
to think clearly, but when I heard the first mention of the group "taking credit," I thought of Arlo Guthrie's "the last guy" borrowing a dime to place the call.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. !
*shadow government*
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Ha! Did you hear Tom Brokaw say, "This is war."
I never realized how deeply militarized our discourse is. It's shocking, really.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. It is.
It was shocking, indeed. I can remember watching most of these things, in a stunned disbelief. Watching it now is almost as surreal.
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. I thought that was very odd as well,
particularly since the DFLP is a very minor organization that has never conducted any activity outside of the Occupied Territories.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. Don't look at me. I'm with the Palestinian Front for Democratic Liberation
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Lol! Sounds like a club I'd like!
:)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Oh yes. Just steer clear of the Democratic Palestinian Liberation Front.
They're nasty.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. And now, the Today Show has PORTER GOSS weighing in.
He was in Congress back then.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Total Sham
Talking about responding appropriately, making sure the response is aimed at those directly responsible, not innocent people. So where, Porter, did Iraq fall into your scenario?

*shadow government*
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Did you notice that when asked why THE PENTAGON was so
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 10:51 AM by sfexpat2000
vulnerable, he had a rap all ready? I wish I could listen to it again. It was creepy in the extreme.

And why Porter Goss? In the middle of all that supposed chaos, he was the member of Congress that happened to be handy?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Why Porter Indeed
Was ready to go. I wish I could hear it again too because he caught me by surprise and I was only half listening at first.

*shadow government*
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. Albert Turrey (sp?) head of security for the NYC FD says that
there were secondary explosions and that at least one had probably been planted in the building. . . This is separate from explosions caused by open gas lines.


And now, they're running tape of Palestinians celebrating. Didn't we find out later that this was a hoax? I'm not sure any more.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. It was a hoax. Replicons ignore debunking and just keep repeating
the lies until no one is sure anymore.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. And the corporate media just slipped it in there seamlessly.
In reality, Arafat was one of the first to extend his condolences.

:crazy:
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Corporate Media = Replicons
There is no difference in my opinion. Both are loathsome, despicable, treasonous backwash.
I'll be happy when we've evolved beyond them.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. That's What I Was Trying To Remember
I was on the phone at the time and thought did he really say that?

*shadow government*
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. After the "official" story came out, I remember wondering --
what about all those explosions that those reporters kept hearing, announcing -- and recording on tape? They all got edited out, didn't they?
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
25. If only we could get away from the simplistic good versus evil mindset
Americans seem to prefer their moral outlook couched in terms of black and white, except of course when it applies to their own personal moral failings, and then their rationalization is, "It's complicated."

I have never believed in good versus evil as far as this struggle to contain and eventually eradicate terrorism, but it's looking more and more like evil versus evil. Not that I believe our government is noble, but for those who still cling to that illusion/delusion, Eric Hoffer said, No matter how noble the objectives of a government, if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion--it is an evil government.

And of course, there's the ever-insightful Nietzsche: Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Right.
It takes less energy and insight to keep things in black and white, and our citizens tend to prefer that comfort. I got a kick out of your on target comment on people rationalizing their own moral failings .... though to be fair, for much of my life I found it far easier to simply blame others. (grin)

I tend to think of Nietzsche as usually insightful (even unusually insightful!) .... and that quote reminds me of Scheuer quoting Sun Tzu's saying that the key to warfare is knowledge of the enemy, and that to know your enemy is to know yourself.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Do you think Sun Tzu is talking about projective identification?
It seems so.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Yes, in large part,
I do. I think that's a huge part of it.

I also think back to photos I have seen of soldiers from the Civil War, meeting in memorial ceremonies decades after the horrors of the battlefield .... and I'm always amazed at the way many had a mutual respect.

Scheuer is a fascinating author. He makes very clear that he is convinced the US has to destroy the forces of al Qaeda, including killing bin Laden. But at the same time, he outrages some Americans by comparing him to figures in our nation's history, including John Brown, John Bunyon, and Thomas Jefferson.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. The same people who would be outraged were we to compare
jihadis and the new "Minutemen" I imagine.

lol
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I Note But Make No Comment Upon Your Comment Referring To
others. (grin)

*shadow government*
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Or Solshenitsyn who said
the line between good and evil runs through every man's heart.

I always try to attribute that to Jung but I just googled and found I had the wrong man.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. beautiful quotation! Thank you! That is the very line that I have
sometimes challenged DUers to see in them/ourselves, because, of course it is correct... it runs through all of us. Yet, when I ask that we think about that, I get called a RWer.

Or, a commie, if I should say that to the RWers.

:shrug:

What does it really cost us to look into ourselves? Really?

Isn't our goal to bring about peace? Isn't looking into ourselves one of the ways to achieve peace?

What would it cost us to do so?

Thanks again for this quote. I fear it will never be something very many people chose to look at.
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PurgedVoter Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R Because peace requires understanding.
When did we become barbarians? When did we start thinking, 'Our customs are the true customs of the world?' When did we stop looking for truth?
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. "They hate us for our freedoms" is perhaps the biggest Orwellian lie.
K&R.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. From "Imperial Hubris" ....
"...While there may be a few militant Muslims out there who would blow up themselves and others because they are offended by McDonald's restaurants, Iowa's early presidential primary, and the seminude, fully pregnant Demi Moore on Esquire's cover, they are exactly that: few, and no threat at all to U.S. national security. The focused and lethal threat posed to U.S. national security arises not from Muslims being offended by what America is, but rather from their plausible perception that the things they most love and value -- God, Islam, their brethern, and Muslim lands -- are being attacked by America." (page 9)
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civildisoBDence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Osama himself said that his main gripe is the US bases in Saudi Arabia
Maybe our politicians, left and right, are afraid to say out loud that we're too imperialistic, that we desecrate sacred ground without thought because oil is our sacrament, or that we've smashed our own moral compass to pieces on the alter of consumerism.

Say that out loud, and you won't get reelected in any district in the US that I know of.

Newsprism
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. IMO
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 02:12 PM by CJCRANE
that is a very important point. It is not a "clash of civilizations". I've read that Bin Laden himself is quite happy to buy American products and watch Hollywood action movies.

This isn't the article I was thinking of, but something similar (in second half of article):

"Bin Laden 'wore US army combat jacket'

Osama bin Laden wore an American combat jacket and watch as he was filmed speaking about the terrorist attacks against the United States, it was revealed today."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,,566374,00.html
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Interesting.
In Peter Bergen's "The Osama bin Laden I Know," some of the people who have known him for many years note that he has long advocated boycotting American products. It's mentioned in four sections in the book. At the same time, Bergen notes in the mid-1980s, he had an Egyptian pilot purchase an American jet for him.
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
36. OBL attacked the US for one simple reason--for stationing troops
in the land of the "two holies," i. e., Saudi Arabi, home of Mecca and Medina.

BushCo. don't want the US to know that a decade of terrorism was the result of a simple stupid foreign policy action by people like H. W. Bush and (former) Sec'ry of Defense Dick Cheney.

They want us to think that terrorists are demons who "hate us for our freedoms" and can never be reasoned with.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. That is one
of the six reasons that Scheuer notes that bin Laden has listed:

1- US and other Western troops on the Arabian Peninsula.
2- US support for Israel that results in oppression of Palestinians.
3- US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. (Numerous references to the death of innocent Iraqi children resulting from US sanctions.)
4- US support for Russia, India, and China against their Muslim militants.
5- US pressure on Arab energy producers to keep oil prices low.
6- US support for apostate, corrupt, and tyrannical Muslim governments.
(Imperial Hubris; page 241)
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
41. I've seen those eyes...
:hide:


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yikes!
Now that is a frightening picture!
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. Can you clarify, regarding Scheuer's comments about Huntingdon...
Does the author Scheuer mean that Huntingdon's book itself is part of -- i.e., guilty of -- the "delusion-producing nature of this ideological approach to international affairs"? Or is he saying that Huntingdon's book correctly sheds light on the "delusion-producing nature of ideological approach to international affairs"

I read that book a few months after 9-11, as part of a quest to become less ignorant about current world affairs. It seemed to me to be a reasonable reminder of all of the reasons why one cannot correctly perceive other cultures through the same lens as one's own, and I think made the point that hidden behind almost all geopolitical conflicts were cultural conflicts.

But later, a very knowledgeable, very progressive friend was quite dismissive of the book and its author, and I'm not sure why. No single book is the be-all and end-all of understanding the world; the book seemed to me (at the time) to be as useful of a perspective as any other. I guess some might believe that greed or personal interests of powerful elites are the real driver of such conflicts, and that cultural issues are only a smokescreen.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. I think that
Michael Scheuer recognizes the Hungington book "correctly sheds light" on the delusion-producing nature of the ideological approach that many Americans, including a significant portion of our "very knowledgeable, very progressive" friends, take to international affairs. It is very difficult to be objective enough to step out of the frame to get a clear view of the picture .... and that ability is not always a matter of intelligence.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. It doesn't seem to be about intelligence but about being comfortable
with the unknown or unfamiliar. Being able to be comfortable with ambiguity.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Right.
Being aware of it, and being comfortable with it.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Impossible to be objective enough,
for if you pick up any thread we find it is hitched to everything else in the universe.

My friend seemed to think that Huntingdon had his own ideology into which he fit the world regardless of whether or not it really fit, or that it was a convenient ideology to enable people to see political conflicts as inevitable effect of culture rather than emphasizing the nature of power within cultures.

He knew enough about the book to teach it at a college level and I think he respected it to some degree.

Thanks for your reply and for the thread.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Sure.
Your friend is certainly on target in the sense that any single book is going to have limitations. I think that much of the foolishness going on in the world today is the result of people thinking that one book has all the answers, and thus trying to force every issue to fit something in that book (or to curse and kill that which doesn't!).

Scheuer, like Huntington, views conflict as part of the human condition .... as you say, an "inevitable effect of culture" .... and, of course, in today's world, those conflicts often pose the risk of warfare, rather than the raiding or battles of earlier societies. While I do not agree with that on some levels, I recognize that human history provides a strong case for their position. It bothers me to think of what Scheuer says about how many of the little boys we see in the towns and cities of America today are most likely going to die in a war that will be rooted in the errors of judgement being made by today's "leaders."

Last night, when I watched Bush deliver that strange speech, I couldn't help but think that this thread would have made a heck of a "response."
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Osama Letter
Osama Letter


In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it."

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious.
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