I'm glad they're showing "The Path to 9/11"

[Tactical Progressive]

You people don't get it. These thugs have, as they always do, gone too far in their self-aggrandizing bubble of contrived reality where they make themselves the hero and everybody else the villian. They were stupid enough to re-introduce their own treachery as a weapon. Big mistake.

Clinton was all over the terrorist threat. Bush and Cheney LET THIS COUNTRY GET ATTACKED. Those are the facts, from every angle and in every particular.

Democrats should have been all over this, screaming from the start, five years ago. Just THINK about what Republicans would have been saying for five years straight if Clinton or Gore had allowed 9/11 in the way Bush did. Instead, we made nice 'for the good of the country', supporting these thugs. And what has America gotten out of the speak-no-evil bipartisanship that Dems proffered for the sake of unity? A lying, stealing, thuggish abuse of everything this country ever stood for. This country has been mauled by these traitors every which way, all based on the power they got from their own treachery in 2001.

Now right-wingers, not content with Dems letting Bush and Cheney skate on their unprecedented treason, have the gall to try to project their depravity onto Clinton as the villian. As we have backed down from fighting them hard they have turned their own treachery onto Democrats, painting us as the wussies on national security, with the unmitigated gall to kick Dems in the teeth for Bush's failure, and now feel powerful and entitled enough to come right out and project their precipitating actions on us.

They have been raping this country of its money, its blood and its Constitution for five years while Democrats stood by silently. How? You watch any political news show and they all say the same thing: Republicans have one club that they beat Democrats with and that is national security. National security THAT THEY BREACHED! It's OUR CLUB!!

And now is the time to use it.

This is an unexpected second chance to go after them over 9/11. I didn't think it would ever come, buried under time and sorrow in a country that doesn't want to understand anything that makes them uncomfortable. But here it is. For five years they have abused Democrats and the United States with their failure. It's time to start hitting them over 9/11 and not stopping.

Every conversation on every topic should have their intentional national security negligence shoved down their throats.

Will Republicans try again to privatize Social Security? Well Tim, Republicans left America wide open to attack from terrorists in
2001 so they could invade the Middle East, so I don't know why we would trust them not to try to destroy Social Security.

What are Democrats going to do about the deficit? Are you going to raise taxes? Katie, we wouldn't be in this mess if Bush hadn't given three trillion dollars to the wealthiest Americans and another trillion in a war they lied us into after leaving us vulnerable to attack by terrorism.

What time is it? It's five years, Chris, since this administration let this country get attacked by terrorists so they could start their long-planned invasion of the Middle East.

This is a serendipitous second opportunity for Democrats and honest Americans to show what really caused 9/11, but all I see online, here and elsewhere, is scared Dems saying, essentially, 'please don't hit us'. Fuck that. This is the opportunity to smash these truly, deeply evil fuckers for their treason against this country in every venue at every opportunity from now through the mid-terms and for years beyond.

The door has been opened and instead of all of this wailing and gnashing of teeth, I think it is time to walk through and start attacking. I'm glad 9/11 is no longer buried under a gentleman's agreement not to point fingers. That unspoken agreement was a totally one-sided capitulation, favoring them 100%, and yet still they have never had the decency to honor it anyway, now finally violating it wholesale.

The gloves should be off now, and Democrats should all quit whining. It's time to fight hard.

Them opening the door on this is is a godsend.

[NewInNewJ.]

1. Glad you are happy.. So is the right wing.

[Tactical Progressive]

7. They're only happy

because they think they are getting another shot to hit Democrats in the back of the head like the cowards they are, without us doing anything but whining for them to stop.

They won't be happy if we have the guts to turn around and hit them back hard and keep on hitting them. They won't be happy at all.

[KittyWampus]

2. Agreed. The Idiot GOP has handed the Dems a Golden Opportunity

I'm glad 9/11 is no longer buried under a gentleman's agreement not to point fingers. That unspoken agreement was a totally one-sided capitulation, favoring them 100%, and yet still they have never had the decency to honor it anyway, now finally violating it wholesale.

[ewagner]

I'll respectfully disagree

the GOP knows something about the American Public that the Dems have been avoiding...

it's just this:

The collective public memory is short....they believe whoever tells them the "truth" last.

For the November elections, whoever tells their version of the truth just before they vote will win.


that's the fact, jack....

[Tactical Progressive]

9. We have nine weeks to tell them the truth last

before the mid-terms.

And another two years to keep telling them the truth before the next Presidential election.

And another ten years to keep reminding them.


Your calculus only applies if we do nothing in response to this perverted assault.

[ewagner]

13. I didn't mean to imply

that we shouldn't respond.....of course we should respond...it's part of the "last word" syndrome.

[nomaco-10]

3. I had to stop lurking and login.....

to say how much I agree with your thread.
We have all done the right thing by bringing the inaccuracies and outright lies of this rightwing propaganda film to the attention of every major media outlet. It is now being debated in the open on just about every news outlet in America non stop for the last two days.

We should be taking advantage of all the media coverage and enjoying this gift we've been given to expose these lying bastards for the propaganda peddlers they are on primetime national television.

As for Clinton, it's about time he got mad. I'm really encouraged that he could tear himself away from poppy bush and joe lieberman's campaign to finally stand up and do something on behalf of all American citizens that still care about the truth in this country.

[Tactical Progressive]

10. It would be great if Clinton and Gore

or other Dems in representation of Clinton and Gore, would start to make it a point to continually show all of the things Clinton and Gore did, and tried to do against GOP resistance, to thwart terrorism.

They were on it, while the GOP blocked their cockpit safety regs, their money-laundering legislation, etc.

[Parisle]

4. Well,... Since It's Happening Anyway,.......

---- I'll agree with this premise. The ground rules just changed,... that's all. The democrats DO have to stop whining and take a vicious and effective stand. The goddamned PNAC neocons are not going to be beaten by a bunch of parlimentarians and librarians. Take the ABC debacle as an opportunity, and go from there. It IS what it IS. Deal with it.

[newspeak]

25. hey, don't mess with librarians

librarians are the ones that have been in the front defending our Constitutional Rights--no, no sirree, I wouldn't be messing with librarians!!!!

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. I'm beginning to wonder if anybody will even watch this thing.

Nobody good is in it, and it's too long for most people's attention span anymore. Most kids will be doing their homework or playing video games at that time.

[MADem]

6. "You People" don't get it?

Uh, I am one of those "you people" and I get it. One more time, these pigfuckers in the GOP are trying to rewrite history and impugn the patriotism of people they disagree with.

I am not going to sit quietly and put up with it.

They are either gonna be forced to fix that piece of shit, which will probably leave them with a three hour programming gap, or cancel it.

This isn't WHINING. This is WAR.

I do agree that they HAVE GONE TOO FAR, but I am not resting on my laurels YET, because they haven't pulled the plug on this disgrace YET. When they do, I will rejoice.

Until then, I recommend EVERYONE grab THIS LIST http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2816301&mesg_id=2816301

and start ripping DISNEY a new asshole...politely, of course.

PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN 3 is in production, FWIW--and a boycott of that would hurt them BADLY.

[bliss_eternal]

12. I'm with you MADem...

Disney wasn't doing very well prior to Pirates. Pirates almost wasn't a Disney production, they were not expecting it to do well, and it was very much a surprise hit. The steam from Pirates helped pull the company out of the hole. They quickly agreed to knock out the sequels.

The Disney financial hole seemed to have been created from a few areas. Roy Disney called the company on this when he accused them of creating "an incomplete theme park" which was Disney's California Adventure. Roy Disney gave up his seat on the board just so he could speak out against the company, and primarily against Michael Eisner and all he's done with the company.

The other aspects of their financial hole came from the accidents at the parks--which seem to have chipped away at customer faith in the company.

Another thing that hurt the company, 9/11. After 9/11 you couldn't pay people to fly. This adversely affected both parks, WDW and Disneyland resort.

Disneyland is also not a "competitive" employer in terms of offering pay commensurate with the cost of living in southern California. They recently narrowly escaped a labor strike, which I'm sure would have added to it's already long list of public relations nightmares.

[Tactical Progressive]

18. This wasn't directed at you personally

MADem, it was directed at the progressive community in general which is acting in its standard defensive posture, which is to say doing little more than getting outraged and demanding, demanding!, that Republicans cease their assault. Same as always. Right-wing thugs could care less; in fact, they're probably enjoying the anger that their latest dishonest and venal assault creates.

It's the same every time Democrats get attacked. From Cleland to Daschle to Kerry and on and on and on, they savage them with disgusting lies, and all we do is get outraged and demand that they cease and desist, like Tom, practically weeping in the Senate. I just no longer believe that is the correct response. In any circumstance and ESPECIALLY in this. I believe that the correct response is to take the shot, smile, and then turn around and hit them in the face. Every. Single. Time. It is the only thing they understand. The only thing they have ever understood. And the only thing they will ever understand.

We all "get" that these people are "pigfuckers ... trying to rewrite history". What I'm saying here that progressives are comprehensively NOT getting is about our reaction: this is not the time to scream for them to stop; this is exactly the time where we should start hitting back. You are on defense. I'm talking about offense. You are not getting that.

Let them air their shitty lies. Then let's spend the next five years talking about how Republicans repeatedly ignored and blocked anti-terror efforts throughout the latter half of the Clinton administration, and about how Bush and Cheney intentionally ignored massive and direct warnings and blocked anti-terrorism actions leading to 9/11.

You "get" that they're bad, and like so many Dems you want them to "pull the plug on this disgrace" so we can all go back to the gentleman's agreement that Bush and Clinton are both culpable so that in fact nobody is culpable. I want them to air their craven revisionism, and for Democrats to spend the rest of their political lives hilighting how Republicans let this country get hammered.

[MADem]

19. I say hit them in their goddamn wallets, and make NO BONES about it

I posted the DISNEY list, and I just posted the APPLE list. Tell those buffoons at Disney that you are changing your plans--no winter DISNEY WORLD vacation, you're calling the cable company and DEMANDING they give you an alternative station to the bundled DISNEY shit, and NO PIRATES III for your family.

Call APPLE and tell them NO computers made by them or iPods under the fucking tree this year.

That's how you demand...you wave your MONEY under their nose and then tell them FUCK YOU, YA AIN'T gittin' none of it!!!!!

And I certainly do NOT feel this way at all: like so many Dems you want them to "pull the plug on this disgrace" so we can all go back to the gentleman's agreement that Bush and Clinton are both culpable ... so I have no idea where you are getting that crap, but it isn't from MY mind.

I blame NINE WUN WUN on BUSH ALONE. Last time I checked, when Clinton was in charge, the FBI wasn't getting their funding cut, the National Security team had an understanding of the real danger, and no one flew any planes into the WTC.

For you to assert that I endorse any such bullshit 'gentleman's agreement' is dispicable in the extreme. And flat out FALSE. I know where the blame lies. And it AIN'T with Bill Clinton.

[Tactical Progressive]

21. So now I'm "despicable in the extreme"

because you can't understand the difference in outcomes between offensive and defensive tactics. Well, ....... for that.

As to the non- ad-hominem remarks in your post:

The result of getting them to pull the plug on this disgrace will INEVITABLY BE to go back to the gentleman's agreement that Bush and Clinton are both culpable. Blocking their lies about Clinton regarding 9/11 will only reinforce the media's notion that NOBODY should be blamed since Republicans are hugely at fault, and will make all real attempts that much more off-limits. Think of it like a blocking move by Republicans: they post lies and garbage which get taken off the air; then nobody can broadcast anything or else it will be 'unfair'. That's just the natural result of shutting down this movie. Whether you endorse it or not, that's in all likelyhood going to be the outcome of your actions.

Secondly, what the fuck does small-scale hurt on an advertiser do against Republican political thugs? They couldn't care less. They couldn't care less if we drove an advertiser out of business. The right-wing scum who perpetrate this kind of smearboating couldn't give a shit less who else they hurt. The networks might but so what? It won't hurt the Republican political machine.

What you (and by 'you' I mean 'progressives like you who are hell-bent on shutting down this movie' - or do I have to spell that out every time I use pronoun shorthand for your position so that 'you personally' don't get pissy?) are not getting is that all this will result in is a moratorium on 9/11 blame in the broadcast media. That doesn't help us, it hurts us. What you are doing, if successful, will in all likelyhood hurt us because it WILL lead back to the gentleman's agreement, again, whether you endorse it or not. It's a 'take all the clubs away' effort and we're the only ones with a real club. Can you not see how counterproductive that will be?

I've already ranted too long on the difference in tactics. If you want to take it personally so you can get nasty, I can't stop you.

I say let the movie air, cleaned up of blatant lies, then produce a 5-hour 'Frontline'-like program on the real negligence that led to 9/11, complete with what Clinton, his Republican Congress, and Bush-Cheney really did. We can do that within a month and demand that ABC broadcast it, but we won't get the chance once you (do you want me to spell it out again?) take this movie off the air.

[MADem]

22. No, you are dispicable, as I said, because you flat out said I was

complicit in a "gentleman's agreement" to distribute blame to President Clinton. That's why. PLAIN and simple. Not a dozen paragraphs of explanation. Now you're trying to suggest in revisionist fashion that you were speaking generally, but your previous post doesn't read in "general" fashion at all.

ONE MORE TIME: I am NOT in the "GUILTY CLINTON" camp. And I have reason not to be. I have more awareness than the average civilian about what went on during that timeframe.

I'll be satisfied with nothing less than a total retraction of any and all bullshit from that farce of an ABC presentation, which will probably strip it down to three hours over one night.

I stand with the historians, the Senate leaders, SECDEF Cohen, SECSTATE Albright, the last fairly elected President, and all the others who are OUTRAGED. Not piqued, not worrying about tactics, not concerned about how others feel--I am PISSED. I want justice.

And while GOP cretins may not care about advertisers, they do when the cash they get from them goes away. The whole enterprise runs on MONEY. And if less comes in, less goes out.

The friends of Rosa Parks understood what pissed off consumers could do, and "small scale hurts" can turn into business-crushing misery. It's a strong lesson, worth revisiting.

I give NO quarter. And if you don't care for my tactics, FINE. Step aside or turn away. But don't tell me how to approach this issue--I take it personally, because it IS personal to me.

[Tactical Progressive]

24. Well, your uncivil attitude, your personal attacks,

and your disingenuousness in choosing to take offense when quite obviously no offense was given, is the only thing that is despicable on this thread.

I never said, nor implied, nor even gave a single thought to the notion that anyone on this board would be in the "GUILTY CLINTON camp", let alone you personally. So I really don't need your reminder. You are disgusting in even implying such.

The only thing you appear to be giving no quarter to is your personal attacks in this thread. Maybe you're having a bad day? Maybe you're on a jihad. I don't know and I don't care. Take your rancor to any of the hundred threads screaming to block this movie.

This was an entirely different perspective from all of those threads. One in which you haven't even had the civility to discuss a SINGLE point I brough up in ANY of your posts. This thread was designed to make people look at the tactical implications of getting this movie taken off the air. You just came right in and started yelling about how you are going to shut this movie down, and from there graduated to unprovoked personal attacks.

I didn't start this thread to make enemies, but you seem intent on being an angry little pissant, completely ignoring the topic, disingenuously pretending there was some attack on you personally, then to cap it off despicably inferring that I was calling you a "GUILTY CLINTON camp"er, when the whole time you've been the one spouting personal attacks. What a load of ugly shit you've brought here.

If you want to discuss any of the points I've made, have at it. If you want to 'give no quarter' about your bad behavior here, take it offline and PM me. You've already fucked this thread up enough without addressing anything in it.

[MADem]

26. No personal attack. Your words were dispicable.

Go read what you wrote. Post facto, you averred you weren't talking 'bout me, but ya coulda fooled me in the initial assertions.

Look, we disagree as to leaving the movie up, or forcing it off. I go for the latter. I'm not taking any more GOP shit, and I was in a position to KNOW what Clinton did with regard to the threat of terrorism.

I am tired of this theme that we need to FEAR the GOP -- I think it is past time that we are confronting them nose to nose over their flagrant bullshit. I am NOT AFRAID of them. They can kiss my tired old retired military ass. I have had more than enough, and this bullshit broke my camel's back.

Your mileage obviously varies, you prefer appeasement and quiet little half measures. I say we don't have time for that shit anymore.

And bad behavior is a two way street, FWIW.

[Tactical Progressive]

27. Your bad behavior has been a one-way street here

You are the one being despicable. I know what I wrote and none of it was deprecatory towards you or anyone else. If you think differently then step up to the plate and explain. You'd better have something better than that I was personally attacking you for being in the "GUILTY CLINTON camp", because if that's all you've got then you'll be a liar.

I don't appreciate personal attacks even when they're warranted, and here they're not even. But you persist in your ugly behavior.


"Look, we disagree as to leaving the movie up, or forcing it off. I go for the latter."

That's the closest you've come to addressing anything I'm saying, and still you didn't do more than just to say "we disagree".

"I'm not taking any more GOP shit ... I am tired of this theme that we need to FEAR the GOP -- I think it is past time that we are confronting them nose to nose over their flagrant bullshit."

See, I'm the one who is not interested in taking any more GOP shit. I want to hit back. What you're trying to do will result in us NOT being able to hit back. You don't want to go there because it's scary. We might have to start fighting them. I welcome the opportunity. The silver-platter opportunity. You still fail to address anything more than your righteous anger. I agree with your (the) anger fully; I am just looking at this tactically from a much broader perspective. I want to hit them back far harder than what you're doing.

Again, if you want to discuss what I'm talking about then do it. If you want to somehow try to justify your extremely antagonistic and dishonest behavior on this thread towards me, let's take it offline. You've gotten enough of your nasty, unwarranted digs in on my thread.

[MADem]

28. You start out calling everyone who isn't on your wavelength "you people"

You People. That's CODE, you know. YOU people...

Then you move on with this gem: like so many Dems you want them to "pull the plug on this disgrace" so we can all go back to the gentleman's agreement that Bush and Clinton are both culpable ...

You lump me in with a bunch of appeasing assholes, you even QUOTE a phrase I used, then you try to DENY it is about ME, and then you have the brass to get shirty when I take offense?

If anyone is making nasty and unwarranted digs, it's you. And it's all because you are angry that I don't see things your way.

Too bad. That ain't happening.

[Beelzebud]

8. Kerry's campaign slogan should have been: 9/11 happened on Bush's watch.

[Rex]

11. It is the act of a desperate group of people IMO.

Watch 'em, this is when they are THE most dangerous to America. Fucking FBI *spit*. You assholes should be arresting Cheney and Rummy, not appeasing them. Whatever they do next to America is on YOUR folk's heads.

[maine_raptor]

14. Agree...........gloves come off

If any repug tries to tell me that it's all Clinton's fault, my reply is simply:



Where's Osama? Why isn't he in jail five years after 9-11?


Don't tell me he's unimportant, he killed 3000 of my fellow citizens, why is he still loose?

Don't tell me we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here; they already "fought" us here 5 years ago and the guy who did it is still at large; when will you get him?

Don't tell me we haven't been attacked since 9-11, I want to know when you're going to close the books on that crime by catching the guy that did the deed.

If, after 5 years, you haven't caught the bastard responsible, it's time for a new sheriff

[southpaw]

15. Here are some facts about Clinton and bush RE: terrorism

Anti-Terror measures implemented under President Clinton:

-- sent legislation to Congress to TIGHTEN AIRPORT SECURITY. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

-- sent legislation to Congress to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF TERRORIST FUNDING. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

-- sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF EXPLOSIVES USED BY TERRORISTS. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

-- Developed the nation's first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Boston airport.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge.

-- Stopped cold the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania.

-- Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).

-- Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.

-- Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after they had left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively -- and successfully -- to stop future terrorist attacks.

-- Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

-- Tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism.

-- Detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries

-- Created a national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

-- Robert Oakley, Reagan Counterterrorism Czar says of Clinton's efforts "Overall, I give them very high marks" and "The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama"

-- Paul Bremer, Bush's Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley saying he believed the Clinton Administration had "correctly focused on bin Laden. "

-- Barton Gellman of the Washington Post put it best, "By any measure available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him" and was the "first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."







In stark contrast, here is the Bush-Cheney anti-terrorism record:


-- Backed off Clinton administration's anti-terrorism efforts.

-- Shelved the Hart-Rudman report.

-- Appointed new anti-terrorism task force under Dick Cheney. Group did not even meet before 9/11.

-- Called for cuts in anti-terrorism efforts by the Department of Defense.

-- Gave no priority to anti-terrorism efforts by Justice Department.

-- Ignored warnings from Sandy Berger, Louis Freeh, George Tennant, Paul Bremer, and Richard Clarke about the urgency of terrorist threats.

-- Halted Predator drone tracking of Osama bin Laden.

-- Did nothing in wake of August 6 C.I.A. report to president saying Al Qaeda attack by hijack of an airliner almost certain.

-- Bush - knowing about the terrorists' plans to attack in America, warned that terrorists were in flight schools in the US - took a four week vacation.

-- By failing to order any coordination of intelligence data, missed opportunity to stop the 9/11 plot as Clinton-Gore had stopped the millennium plots.

-- Blamed President Clinton for 9/11.

[watercolors]

16. Thank you for this

I printed it out to post in my place of business! I get tired of all the blame game.

[southpaw]

17. You are most welcome... but I did not create this list.

I can't remember for sure where I ran across it. It may have been posted here on DU.

In any case, I'm certain it was complied and put out here to be useful in situations such as the one we face now... so I think we are safe to distribute or display it at will. I'm sure the writer of the list would approve. :patriot:

edited for spelling

[Tactical Progressive]

23. That's what I want to see on ABC!

A five-hour miniseries with all of that stuff, in 'Frontline' style.

With limited commercial interruption, if I'm not mistaken.

We practically have an invitation now, if we don't throw it away like so many here are unwittingly trying so hard to do.


Thanks for the great post, southpaw.

[Imagevision]

20. Path to 9-11 will come back to bite GOP in the ass bigtime...

Watch the pundits ask; " so what did you think of path To 9-11 fact or fiction"?
as its content is called into question by history and the true facts of the 9-11 commission findings.

This is beautiful, ABC better get it right, their claim of some parts are fiction before viewing isn't going to fly...