george ryan is not a hero. some facts about the death penalty.

[mopinko]

i want to scream this as loud as i can. george ryan's motives for his moratorium on the death penalty in illinois are filthy and self interested in the way only a thug can be.
first of all, although is was unlikely, he could have been, and should have been prosecuted in the deaths of 6 children. somehow (?) he managed to defuse this issue in his re-election campaign. but the corruption for which he was convicted- trading bribes for commercial driving licenses for UNQUALIFIED TRUCK DRIVERS, directly lead to 6 children burning to death in their minivan, while their parents stood helplessly watching. read that sentence again, please. ok, he changed the law that could have been applied to HIM!!! this money went into his campaign fund. most likely, since he was the chairman of illinois for bush, it probably helped * as well. got that? 6 children, AT LEAST died because he sold his office. how many others have died in crashes with these incompetents is anyones guess. i doubt that number is zero, tho.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/ryan/cst-nws-ryan22.html

secondly, the men sitting on death row, as well as 13 innocent men that had already been released, in many cases, were there because they had been tortured to confess. the stench of commander john burge, of chicago, who tortured suspects, especially black suspects, for years, would have been stinking up the entire state of illinois in the near future if these executions had gone forward. this was not about political embarrassment. this is about a stench from the deepest dungeon that threatened to sink george ryan, and may yet sink richard daley.
http://www.ccadp.org/deathrow10.htm


ok, so this is not, well he was a bad guy, but he did this one good thing. he used his office to protect HIMSELF, and no one else. no one. no one. no one. he is a typical republican pig. i cannot wait to see him rotting in prison. he is human garbage.

[Warpy]

1. Some pols, even vilified GOP pols, are mixed bags

Nixon was one of those.

Ryan was another. He could have managed to hush the whole thing up, stonewalled the press, said the innocence project had done their job and now everybody on death row was guilty as sin and gone on killing them.

He did the unpopular thing, though, and canceled the DP. That took some courage, and that's what he'll be remembered for in the future, not the systemic corruption he likely inherited from both parties.

We're having similar things go on here in NM, where briberies and kickbacks have just been business as usual. We have two officials on trial, the previous and present office holders who just thought bribery and kickbacks were the expected way to do business. The corruption didn't start with either of them, they were just too damn dumb to realize it was WRONG.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

6. "systemic corruption" is correct. There are probably a lot of

people in Illinois government who would like Ryan to take the full rap so they can go back to business as usual.

[mopinko]

7. not a mixed bag

at all. he was covering his own ass. had the willis thing stirred the media, or prosecutors, to root through the public record for unqualified drivers that were involved in accidents, i have no doubt at all that more bodies would have landed at george ryan's feet.
he was covering his own ass. in true thug fashion.
get this straight. people do not pay bribes to get a commercial license if they are qualified to get it the right way. george ryan sold his office. the first responsibility of the illinois secretary of state is to insure the safety of illinois roads. to make sure that people driving 10 tons and more at highway speeds know what the hell they are doing so that people do not get KILLED!! 6 children were fried. their helpless parents stood and watched. how many more at there that we do not know about? hundreds and hundreds of unqualified drivers are on the road because of this man.
he knew he belonged on death row as well. he covered his own fat ass.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. ok

let's get this straight. Among the many (over 50) people arrested, indicted, convicted, pled, or given immunity in this mess were many first level clerks. THEY took the bribes. Then, their direct supervisors. THEY forced sales of campaign "tickets" luncheon tix, and donations. Then, their bosses. THEY added more pressure on staff and outsiders for $$$. Then, the top aides to George. These guys are/were as dirty as George.

George did not cause the accident. He did not drive the truck. He did not sell a CDL. He did not load the truck. He did not have a piece of metal fall off the truck. There is no proximate cause between the loading, driving, and a piece of metal falling off the truck and puncturing a gas tank on a highway. None. The absence/presence of a CDL would have changed nothing with respect to the accident. The guy who bought the CDL could have just as easily been driving without a license, or with a valid CDL and those kids still would have died.

Now, Did he sell his office? you bet. And he was found guilty. And he deserves every day of the 6.5 yrs behind bars.

Unfortunately, many others in both parties in Illinois deserve the same fate.

The crooks and liars website could spend all of its time on Illinois and no one would notice.

[AngryAmish]

3. CDL means you know things

For example, it means you know English. The guy driving the truck did not. Are you aware there was one or more people pulling alongside him, yelling that the piece of metal was dangling behind the truck?

Also, in order to get a CDL you must know the proper procedures for driving a truck. Part of the procedures you are trained to do in to inspect the truck and trailer before you drive. This guy did not do it.

No proximate cause b/w Ryan and the accident? That is true. But the lack of a CDL and the accident you bet that there was.

[mark414]

4. it was exactly that, an accident

and yes the guy had every reason in the world to not be driving that truck but you can't place the blame for it at ryan's feet

it was a tragedy and tragedys don't always have someone to point the finger at

[AngryAmish]

5. $100 million worth of tragedy

That was the sum paid to the Willis'. They pointed the finger at the driver's company, leasing company, company that owned the trailer and a few others that I don't remember.

The finger was pointed and they agreed that they were at fault. Not a dime from the state, tho.

on edit: It doesn't mean that Ryan is not a turd.

[mopinko]

10. it was not an accident.

it was negligence. it was the easily predictable result of letting unqualified drivers on the road. people do not pay big bribes for licenses, unless that is the only way to get them.
try this thought experiment. imagine yourself on a busy highway. your 6 kids are in the car with you. you are trying to keep up with the traffic that is flowing at 15 miles above the limit. giant trucks loaded with steel beams and heavy equipment. look in your rearview mirror, and think this- the secretary of state of my state takes bribes so that unqualified drivers can drive these rigs. are you going to shrug your shoulders and say "shit happens" now?

[mark414]

18. yeah

ryan's a big POS and prosecute the hell out of him for the laws he broke but what happened happened (and it happened in my damn city and i remember it clearly) and i'm tired of there having to be a scapegoat for every damn thing that happens, they're called accidents for a reason

[ChairmanAgnostic]

12. You obviously do not understand CDLs, nor Illinois law

CDL exams are in three parts.
a) driving test
b) written exam
c) HazMat (if applicable) exam

the State of Illinois (and many other states) provide their CDL written exams in English, Spanish, Polish and (the last I heard) were considering a Russian language exam. The test includes the signage in english which must be understood by the exam taker.

Yes, I know the whole story. Yes, I was in the courtroom on occasion. Yes, I saw the attacks by Powers on TV and in the papers against the gov for years. And no, I do not support the ex-Gov. When he held my firm up for donations, and let it be known that business i received from the state in those days would be at risk, I knew two things long before the Willis accident. One, ryan is a dirty scum Illinois pol that got caught. Two, I wanted out of a firm that was willing to be blackmailed into supporting a dirty pol. So I got out.

If there is no proximate cause between the selling of his office as SecState, there is no legal cause of action for the Willis accident. PERIOD.

And the Supreme Court has held that a violation of a statute must be directly related to the accident before that statute violation can be part of a suit. Willis' suit had those claims barred. A better example of proximate cause and relationship to a statutory violation is the dram shop.
If a tavern owner sells you four too many G&Ts, knowing how plastered you are, and you run over the surviving Willis kids, there is proximate cause, there is a statutory violation which directly led to the accident, and you can be sued under the dram shop cause of action. That is not the case here. George did not sell the CDL personally. He did not instruction anyone to do so to the Willis case driver. He did not personally allow that driver to get on a highway.

And for your information, there are IDOT estimates that 38% of Illinois CDL holders who do NOT do a proper pre-trip inspection, despite it being required by law. Mainly small haul and local carriers can't afford the time, so they ignore it. The mid and large carriers don't dare getting the fines if their docs and pretrip inspections aren't in order.

[AngryAmish]

15. CDL Written and Road Tests

"CDL computerized tests, road and skills tests are only administered in the English language. To request an oral CDL computerized test at a facility equipped with automated written testing equipment, you must contact the facility manager."



I am not intimately involved in the CDL process but if there are provisions (at this time) for non-English speakers to get a license then I am not familiar with it.

I am familiar with the concepts of proximate cause and that is why the state did not pay the Willis' a dime (as I stated in my post.)

And just because pre-trip inspections are not done it does not mean they should not be done.

[mopinko]

23. although you may be perfectly correct on the law

the fact is that patrick fitzgerald was working his way up the chain of command. and george ryan's "office" was not just any office. it was an office whose job it is to safeguard the public safety. it is the difference between giving your worthless nephew a job picking up the garbage after the jazzfest and giving him a job as a firefighter.
and also remember that whistleblowers had already contacted him at that time and told him that they felt he had blood on his hands. whether this is a claim that will stand up in court or not. prosecutors were on their way to his door. he was morally, if not legally, responsible for those dead children. if there was any moral calculus behind his actions, it is that. i have blood on my own hands. i know that some of these men are actually innocent. had confessions tortured out of them. i am the chief executive of this state. do i want more blood on my hands? i contend that without that underlying stain, he would never have made that decision. i do not find it admirable that one killer would have mercy on another.

[mopinko]

8. george ryan DID sell the cdl

his signature was on it. he ORDERED those clerks to take the money and hand over that license. he did sell it. the money went into HIS pocket. not the clerks pocket. his pocket. and there were many, many more. how many accidents do we not know about?
are you saying that george ryan was unaware that his job was to maintain the public safety?

[peacebaby3]

9. The work that MANY people were involved in regarding the

DP in IL was very real and Ryan's role in backing and supporting it was very real. You can write a crazy rant all you want about other things, but I know from personal experience that it was REAL work and when you suggest otherwise you criticize and denounce a lot of work by many other fine people.

You can dislike Ryan and hold him accountable all you want for the other things he did in the past, but his work regarding the death penalty in IL was incredible and unheard of by any governor, Dem or Rep.

[mopinko]

11. it is not incredible to cover your own ass.

and as he saw fitzgerald picking his way up the chain of command, heading straight for him, he knew he had blood on his hands. he wanted the ultimate justice for others for his own political good. but when he was in the sights, he changed the rules. it was not an act of courage. it was an act of cowardice.

[peacebaby3]

14. Really? Can you prove any of that or are you just spreading some

truthiness?

I have some personal experience with the matter and disagree 100%, but of course what you "feel" is true, must be right. :sarcasm:

Exactly how would placing a moratorium on the DP while appointing a commission to study it in IL and then when the commission came back saying it was horrible and fraught with error, deciding to reduce the sentences of all on DR (except for a few that he gave complete clemency because of overwhelming facts of innocence)to life help him?

The death penalty was not abolished in IL. In fact, there are already about 6 people sentenced to death and on DR in IL since Ryan left office.

[mark414]

22. that doesn't make any sense?

even if he was found responsible for the death of those kids there's no way any jury in the world would send him to death for it...

take it for what it is, a good thing, and separate the man from what actually happened - you don't have to like a guy to appreciate what he did, even if he sucks on everything else

[AngryAmish]

13. face it, Ryan is a turd

I agree on what he did on the DP but it does not make him any less turd-like. Why did he get a free defense by possibly the best defense lawyer in the country? Maybe becuase he had made his friends (including the law firm) rich over the years.

Georege. Ryan. Is. A. Turd.

[peacebaby3]

16. It probably had a lot to do with his later work with regard to indigent

defense while he was in office. Many people in the defense community know the entire story behind it and many of us worked on it.

He has to pay the price for the mistakes he made, but he should also get the credit he deserves for his work on the death penalty.

I know here on DU that it's unpopular to not love or condemn someone and every issue is suppose to be black and white (and it depends on which day it is if we are supposed to hate or love a person), but in real life, it just doesn't work that way.

[AngryAmish]

17. Winston & Strawn (his defense firm)

Run by former Illinois governor (R) Jim Thompson. A lot of their work is government bond work. They made a lot of money over the years. Free defense was payback.

As I said I agree with his stance on the death penalty. But he is a turd.

[peacebaby3]

19. I can't argue the reasons why the firm represented him because

I simply don't know and probably never will. Unless someone from the firm has said publicly that is why they defended him, I'm not willing to speculate, but agree that it may have been payback if what you say is true and verifiable about the firm receiving work because of their relationship with Ryan while he was in office.

I'm not willing to call him a turd because I see two sides to the man and while I won't condone what he did regarding the corruption, I have seen another side and have to acknowledge what I know to be true. Just as I believe in redemption for those on death row, I believe I also must be open to it for all, including George Ryan. Has he earned it? I'm not sure I'm capable of answering that question, but he definitely gets full credit for the work that I know about regarding the death penalty.

Believe me, it was much harder to actually recognize the work that Kenneth Starr has done with regard to the death penalty than it was for Ryan. Starr recently spoke out against the death penalty with a former mentor of mine and it was almost unbelievable. I felt like I was listening to a borderline "bleeding-heart liberal". Who would have ever thought we would see that day?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. I so mistrust starr that my guess is he is simply

looking to the near future.

I suspect that the neocons in the Bush administration have committed so many treasonous acts, that Starr is simply trying to keep these future convicts from getting the death penalty.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. exactly on point.

even worse is the GOP lawfirm that represented him for free. They have come close to being kicked out of several courts for fraud and misrepresentation. Big Jim Thompson, another former Ill Gov, just stepped down as chairman. They are as filthy as Ryan.

On the other side, Bloggo might be getting the next cell to George's. The investigation of our current (D) governor with respect to hiring/firing, and campaign donations is not going away.

He may be the first governor to be indicted while being sworn in for a second term. The corruption in Illinois politics is so thorough, so deep and so longstanding, I wonder just how anything gets done.
The mayor's top aides are either indicted, convicted, or squealing on others. The bloated Cook County board managed to pass a hiring freeze only to disclose that 1400 political favorites were hired despite the freeze. Watching the political crime pages in Illinois is more entertaining than watching the White Sox slide into third and dismally fade away.

[mopinko]

24. when you tell me that blago

is selling the public safety, and not just handing out partonage jobs, then i will agree that he belongs in the cell next to ryan.