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John Murtha's article he wrote on reinstating the draft here.

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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:45 PM
Original message
John Murtha's article he wrote on reinstating the draft here.
Read the entire article here.

It is unlikely that the President will call for a draft. A draft is politically unpopular. But we cannot continue to allow the President to pursue open-ended and vague military missions without a change in direction.

Two years ago, I was one of only two in the House of Representatives who voted for a draft, because I believe if we are a country truly at war, the burden should be shared proportionately and fairly. So Mr. President, you have two options, either change the course in Iraq and reduce the burden on our overstretched active force or reinstitute the draft. We cannot sustain the current course.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sorry, Congressman, but giving a madman access to a huge
supply of our children to use as cannon fodder in his wars of corporate convenience is NOT a good idea.

I know you think it was good enough for you in your day. George W. Stupid was not the president in your day.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Murtha is Telling the Country the truth, we have to make a hard Decision
Either pull out of Iraq OR go to a Draft. The present policy is unsustainable. Murtha KNOWS a draft is the Kiss of Death for the GOP. People who would vote for the GOP for tax cuts, "safety", Guns or morality, will vote against the Draft. People who support this war is oppose it once they realize their sons and grandsons are going.

That is what Murtha is doing here, telling this country we have to make a decision, withdraw from IRaq or Expand the number of Troops in Iraq tremendously, the the only way to do the later is the Draft.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Murtha knows the rethuglicans won't send their kids to fight.
The rethuglicans have ALWAYS assumed it was someone's else responsibility to fight and die. Their kids are too busy cutting classes qnd having keggers.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Murtha knows the rethuglicans won't send their kids to fight.
The rethuglicans have ALWAYS assumed it was someone's else responsibility to fight and die. Their kids are too busy cutting classes qnd having keggers.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Murtha underestimates the rah-rah patriotism a draft inspires
among the stupid. Yes, we have a choice, but the draft is the WRONG choice for the reason I stated.

Madmen should NEVER have the means to build huge armies.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. You can NOT have a Draft without Congress agreeing
And that agreement must be POSITIVE i.e. Congress must vote for it, not just do nothing and leave the President do it. Thus this is a CONGRESSIONAL DECISION NOT a PRESIDENTIAL DECISION.

Murtha by this statement is pushing the Democrats to make a decision on this war (and to a lesser extend the Republicans). Do we expand the war or withdraw? If the Democratic opposition to this war is HOW Bush is running the war and the Democrats do NOT what to Withdraw, then the Democrats must be for the Draft for to stay in Iraq we must expand our efforts and we can NOT build such an army without the Draft. If on the other hand, the Democrats want to withdraw we do NOT need the draft. Thus the DEMOCRATS have to make a decision, are we for the draft and staying in Iraq, or are we against the Draft and for withdrawing from Iraq? Both are defensible position from a Military point of View, which to pick is a Political decision up to Congress.

Please note Bush option is NO draft and no Withdraw and Murtha is saying that is NOT working now, will not work in the Future and will lead to disaster unless we adopt one of the other two options he outlined. Murtha is also throwing the Gauntlet down to the GOP, which of these two options do you want. Murtha position has been quite clear, he is for withdraw. Murtha wants WITHDRAW to be the Democratic Position on Iraq and the Draft for the GOP (and the GOP will attack this position for the GOP do not want to withdraw nor do they want the draft).

Thus in my opinion, this is a make a decision speech to both parties. Which do you want. Murtha will be attacked for this for the GOP knows the Draft is the Kiss of Death (As does Murtha) but the GOP do NOT want to withdraw. Lets see how the politicians line up on this one (and how many will attack Murtha for connecting these two issues).
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Can you think of a better way to ignite opposition?
The rallies and marches and demonstrations against the Vietnam War had nothing to do with US using fraud and outright lies to enter a prolonged war on foreign soil against a country that had never been a threat to US security. The rallies and marches and demonstrations against the Vietnam War had everything to do with opposition to the draft.

If you can think of a better way to shake America out of its apathy into action, I'm all ears.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. We are going to impeach, remove and imprison Bush real soon
Then we can get down to fixing this mess.

We are almost there. No sense becoming hysterical now and do something to make things worse.

Don
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Pardon me for not holding my breath
Until I see (hopefully, in about 2 months) that the GOP don't still have a stranglehold on the elective process, I am very pessimistic that Bush will get anything for his crimes except getting away scot-free.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Suburbia will support it, as will Dixie and the heartland
just like they did during Vietnam.

Remember, the only opposition to Vietnam for YEARS came from college kids. Those without the means to go to college went and many of them were enthusiastic about it until they got there and saw the reality.

NO DRAFT!
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I sure didn't see that enthusiasm
and I grew up in a blue-collar steel town where most of the kids didn't go to college. Only reason a kid enlisted was if he thought he was getting drafted he'd run down to the Navy or the Air Force or get some Army recruiter to promise he wouldn't go to Nam. I'm talking about 1967+. These people didn't embrace the hippie culture, but they sure didn't want to go to Nam.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. By the time they got out of Basic
they were pretty enthusiastic about the whole military experience. They sorta hoped they wouldn't have to go to Vietnam, but they also sorta thought they might achieve glory on the battlefield and come home and tell all the girls about it.

My experience is from NC, same era as yours. Then I moved to Boston, where NOBODY wanted to go.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Could be cause I'm up in PA
I sure didn't see much gung-ho from the kids coming back from basic and heading for Nam. Kids I knew basically wanted to get the year in and get home in one piece.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Bad History, most people supported the Vietnam war till 1968
Edited on Tue Sep-05-06 06:25 PM by happyslug
And that support was throughout the Country, inner city, Suburbia, even Collages. The opposition started on the Campuses before 1968 but even then surveys tend to show more support for the War than opposition.

This all changed in 1968 (Through seems to start in 1967). As the war dragged on and seem NOT to end and the number of American died kept going up, opposition started to increase. As more and more troops were needed in Vietnam more and more opposition occurred. At first this was directed at the unfairness of the Draft i.e. why were so many collage deferments being given? When it became more and more clear this was just unfair (and results from Vietnam showed that one of the problem with selective Service was the smarter draftees did not end up in the Infantry, but the infantry needed troops as smart if not smarter than the rest of the army to keep casualties down i.e. Smarter troops learned how to survive combat quicker and better than dumber troops). Thus Selective Service was replaced by the Lottery i.e. 365 dates were put into a ball and pulled one at a time. Everyone draft-able born on that date was to drafted before the next date was to be drafted. In many ways this caused even more problems on Campus for the Collage deferments program was ended and you could now get drafted if your number came up and the fact you were in Collage could NOT keep you out of Vietnam.

While burning Draft cards were the rage on Campus at the time (1968-1972) you could get a replacement quickly (And many did for it was a form of ID during a time period when many states only issues paper Driver licenses i.e. NO picture on the license).

What cause the lost of Support for the war? First was the apparent lack of Success at stopping the Viet Cong. This was reinforced by Tet and Mini-Tet (Which followed Tet in May of 1968). Loses mounted during this period without apparent results.

Surprising the Draft was supported by the majority of Americans even after it was abolished in 1972. While Campus Protests seems to be factor is abolishing the draft, the more important factor was drop in support among the Country's poor and working class who made up the bulk of the Draftees from 1965-1972. Do to lack of support for the war after 1968 the US Army in Vietnam deteriorated rapidly. In 1965 the US Draftee Army was the best army in the war, capable of defeating any other army in open combat. Man for man it was superior to the All-Volunteer Army that Reagan expanded in the 1980s and is in rapid decline as I write. The problem was a Draftee army without support from home deteriorate quicker than an all volunteer force. Thus the rapid decline after 1968. In fact we have North Vietnamese reports AFTER 1968 that tells their troops NOT to fire upon US troops unless the US troops open fire first. We have reports of US troops (other than in elite units like the Rangers, Navy Seals or Special Forces, or in units with high Esprit-de-corp like the Marines or 82nd Airborne) that would just go on patrol pick a location to sit down and have a "Smoke in" and than wait to be called in from their patrol (Please remember I am writing of the period 1968-1972 NOT the period 1965-1968).

Basically the US Army was done by 1970. the Army needed to be pulled out of Vietnam as soon as Possible. The US Army also needed to get rid of anyone who was a draftee who OPPOSED the war in Vietnam (This extended to the ships of the US Navy among the enlisted draftee ranks). The first option was to permit people who wanted to go to Vietnam to go to Vietnam but those that did not, did not have to go. This started about 1971 but not fully implemented till 1972 (Just before the Draft was abolished completely).

My point was and is the main reason we withdraw from Vietnam was that the NON-Collage kids were refusing to sign up for or if drafted actually do more than the minimum required of them. The Collage kids received the Network Coverage, but most had already served or by manipulating the system like Clinton, not going to serve (OR were female and not subject to the draft). The fact that working class kids were NOT enlisting or if drafted doing the bare minimum to get by was what cause the US to withdraw from Vietnam. Lets NOT forget this fact NOR ignore it for it was not on Television (Which is why, even today, most people think it was the Campus protests that forced us out of Vietnam as opposed to the more effective refusal to enlist or to do the bare minimum of service if draftee of the working class and poor that forced the US Army to withdraw from Vietnam).
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Cool. Let's send people to their deaths so we get better #'s at marches
:eyes:

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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Absolutely right!!
Vietnam would never have been Vietnam if that madman LBJ hadn't had the power of the draft to back his megalomania.

This is going to backfire bigtime. I suspect Murtha will not be re-elected after this.

We (the Dems and progressives) DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE THINGS WORSE to mobilize the country. We just need to educate the people better. Keep putting out the message. We'll win in the end.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. Murtha NOT be re-elected??? In his District?????
That is the best laugh I had today. The only question is how much over 60% of the Vote he will get over that GOP commissioner from Washington County that no one has heard of even in Washington County.

As to LBJ, even he realized that Vietnam was going to be his doom, but he wanted his Great Society program so much he was NOT going to leave the GOP scream we can not afford New Social Programs because we need to provide more effort in Vietnam (Or the alternative "We lost Vietnam because LBJ spent to much money on his war on Poverty"). I hate to say this but Vietnam was the price LBJ paid to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed, LBJ's programs to get more money into the inner city and the rest of LBJ's Great Society Program passed.

Furthermore there is some indication that LBJ blackmailed Nixon in supporting these program AFTER Nixon became President (And to support expansion of these programs during Nixon's first term of office). LBJ is believed to have blackmailed Nixon by threatening Nixon that he, LBJ, would release copies of Tapes of Candidate Nixon calling the President of South Vietnam NOT to listen to LBJ but to wait for Nixon to became President. At the time of the conversation Nixon was just a Candidate and thus the statement was Treason, but LBJ preferred to blackmail Nixon than to remove him and get Agnew as President. I believe it was this tape the Watergate Burglaries were after when they broke into the national Democratic Headquarters in the Watergate Complex.

As to Vietnam itself MOST AMERICAN SUPPORTED THE US GOING INTO VIETNAM AND CONTINUED THAT SUPPORT TILL 1968. The GOP used that support to attack LBJ and the Democrats for being soft on Communism (as the GOP had done so since 1945 and the Yalta agreement, including the issue of "Who lost China" called by the GOP from 1949 onward). As I have said previously, LBJ was forced into Vietnam do to domestic Politics. The same Politics that lead Clinton to accept "Welfare Reform" (For most Americans Accepted such "reform" as needed) and why Bush has dropped "Social Security Reform", for most Americans oppose that "reform". Leaders can only oppose what the majority of their people want to a limited degree. Bush is presently running against that tide and is failing. Bush has backed off anything and everything that the Majority CLEARLY oppose and makes sure if the majority has a stipulation that is against Bush's policies, that stipulation never occurs (For example, According to this Administration, Iraq is NOT in Civil War for the Majority of Americans want the US out in Iraq goes into Civil war).

LBJ had the same problem, the Majority of Americans from 1964 till 1968 Supported and wanted the War in Vietnam. That Changed in 1968 and indications that LBJ was changing with it (For example LBJ's call off of the bombing of North Vietnam and the Resumption of Peach Talks in Paris). All indications was that LBJ wanted the US out of Vietnam and was trying his best to do so AND get his Vice President Elected as President. That was a tough act when Nixon ran as the "Peace" Candidate (Based on Nixon's "Secret Plan to end the War" when Nixon became President the plan was reveled, the "Vietmaneziation" of the war, the expansion of an already existing program started under LBJ in early 1968).

Foreign Policy is NOT in a vacuum, and LBJ knew this as while as any other President. LBJ balanced the Space Program, his Great Society Program and the war in Vietnam to get things done but LBJ could only do that by using all THREE programs, if you dropped one the other fell also. Thus the Civil Rights improvements, the Assistance to Education, the Assistance to the Inner Cities that were the hallmarks of LBJ Great Society Program had to be paid in blood in Vietnam.
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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Well, we'll see.
The election is coming up soon. My optimism is not as great as many on this board. How many times have YOUR hopes been dashed in recent years? Just asking.

As for LBJ, what you are saying is that mass murder and genocide is an acceptable method of getting progressive programs installed. Re-read what you wrote and tell me how I am interpreting this wrongly. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Everyone should read Fiasco by Tom Ricks
Edited on Tue Sep-05-06 01:54 PM by Bleachers7
Somewhere in there a General says that Bush is using 10 divisions for a 12 division policy. Now, 3-4 years down the road we are seeing the effects of that. I am more upset about the breakdown of our military than they're petty wars.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sound and competent leadership would not need the draft
However, I would like to see a story a day in every daily newspaper about how this politician and that politician is pushing for the reinstatement of the draft. Maybe a twist here or there. No college deferments. Or instant enlistment if one gets a deferment for college and fails to get a degree in four years (we can call that the Rove plan.) If one is healthy and of age, you are it. I look forward to the day when a republican steps before the microphone and says we need the draft now. "Conservative" sphincters would ache as tightened. bush's base are evil bastards and they should be on patrol in Iraq and Fallujah regardless of age.
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. My thoughts exactly.
Unfortunately the draft is and has always been, skewed toward the poorer of us in the United States. The richer among us either do not serve, or if they do, are placed into "Champagne Units" like the current group sitting in the Whitehouse.

It appears from the article, that Murtha is telling Bush to "shit or get off the pot." Either start the draft, or bring the troops home. Unfortunately, I can see this entire thing going the way of the "Dean Scream" where all that is going to happen, is the words "Murtha", "wants", and "the draft", being circulated and perpetuated throughout the corporate media and blogosphere.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Now he advises against even joining the military
Amazing what a couple of years in Iraq chasing ghosts can do to ones thinking.

Don
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. I like what he said, but it's too subtle for Murkins
They won't get the idea that maybe the problem is we don't belong there - they're going to see a prominent Democrat calling for the draft. They'll point at Democrats and call us war-mongers, because in their mind we'll be trying to reinstate the draft when we're doing just fine anyway.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. John Murtha is a great man but...
I just really disagree with the idea of calling for a draft.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
19. I agree with him - it's time for those who support the war
to ;ut up or shut up. If these Bush and Republicon voters had to put their or their kids or grandkids asses on the line they wouldn't be so quick to put these jerks in to office. I'd love to see the look on some Young Repukes faces when they get that letter from Uncle Sam! Make the draft up to whatever they have the enlistment age at now for both sexes. No deferments except for some severe physical or mental disabilites. Bad knee, cyst on your butt, flat feet - hell you can still drive a truck, tank, Bradley, Hummer, Stryker, etc.

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. The have the ultimate dodge to the draft --- the .mil doesn't want it


They much prefer voluntary troops. There are too many problems with conscripts.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. yep
Conscript me, and there will be problems.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Don't listen to Right Wing war-hawks on this issue
Edited on Tue Sep-05-06 09:18 PM by happyslug
Historically, Draftee armies are as good as Volunteer armies (and often better). The biggest problem with Draftee Armies is motivation. If the Draftee Army believes in the War, they are as motivated as any Volunteer. Furthermore since the Army can select who they want the quality of the Army as a whole increases. Thus man for man an Draftee army that believes in the war they are in will defeat any Volunteer army of the same size, equipment, training, Doctrine, leadership, organization and supplies.

The problem with Draftee Armies is when the Country (and thus the Draftees) no longer support the war. When this happens the army rapidly declines (For example the German Army after the Summer of 1918 when it became clear the war was lost, the US Army in Vietnam when it became clear that the majority of Americans no longer supported the war in Vietnam and the classic example, the Third Punic War where the Roman Army took three years to take Carthage do to the Roman Army asking why are we fighting Carthage when Hannibal has been dead for over a Generation?). In all three cases the Draftee Army was replaced by a Smaller Volunteer Army, The key was the Army had to be Small for only a limited number of people wanted to volunteer to serve in the army (This especially hurt the German Army during the 1920s for their Doctrine had changed during 1914-1918 giving more and more power to NCOs and away from officers, this require good quality NCO who were NOT enlisting into the German Army in the 1920s, thus the quick switch back to a Draftee Army in the 1930s when the German Army was expanded again).

The Roman Army replaced its Draftee/Militia Army with an all Volunteer force and then started it move from a Republic to a Monarchy (The New All Volunteer Army was first form in 107 BC, but 82 BC Sulla had used it to gain Complete Dictatorship over Rome and by 48 BC when Caesar defeated Pompey. had used it to take complete control over Rome). No efforts were attempted to review the old Militia/ Volunteer Army after Sulla for that meant giving power to the lower classes. The Militia Army had defeated Hannibal in 202 BC and destroyed Macedonia in the Second Macedonia War (Which ended in 196 BC). Over the next 50 years the Roman Elite used the Roman Militia Army to loot the Mediterranean (This including Destroying Macedonia in 168 BC and making Greece under Roman control) . Finally the Roman Elite used the Militia Army to Destroy Carthage in 146 BC (and what remained of Macedonia in 148 BC) Destroying what was left of any real opposition to Roman rule in the Mediterranean. Finally the Roman people said enough was enough, they first show this opposition during the Third Punic and Fourth Macedonia war (Both around 146 BC) where the Roman Army was like the US Army in Vietnam from 1968-1972, going through the motions only, not caring if Rome won or lost the war their were fighting but trying to survive the war. This "walking" with their feet continued through the Gracchi (Who the plebeians supported to the extent the Roman Elite killed both Gracchi Brothers whose crime was just wanting to enforce existing law restricting law ownership to what the law permitted and distributing what land was held in excess to landless Romans). The Roman elite were much more afraid of their own people after 133 BC and the Gracchi then they were of any foreign enemy of Rome so when Maius formed the first Mercenary Roman Army in 107 BC, the Roman Elite wanted more for it was the proper tool to loot the Mediterranean AND cost less then giving the Roman Plebeians land. This anti-plebeian policy continued throughout the Empire, even as the Empire fell, the Roman Elite preferred German barbarians as soldiers than arming they own peasants. Finally when the Empire was reduced to the hump of Greece and Turkey do to the Islamic Invasion of the 600s (and the Germanic Invasions of the 400s) the Empire Finally went back to a Militia Type Army and with that Army survived the Islamic Invasion, outlasted the Caliphate, outlasted Charlemagne's Empire, the Bulgarian Empire, the Serbian Empire and even the Rus kingdom of Kiev, till the final blow to the Empire was made during the Fourth Crusade in 1204 AD (Though the real damage had been done at Mazakurt in 1084 AD where the Empire lost to the Seljuk Turks what is now central Turkey). This later Roman Empire is often called Byzantine Empire but if you go by the date of the Re-adoption of a Militia/Draftee Army. it lasted almost as long as the much larger Roman Empire of the Classical period. Furthermore the Byzantine Empire had enemies on all sides, any one of them capable of conquering their Country, unlike the Roman Empire of the Classical period that had no real enemies except its internal enemies of its own peasants. From Hannibal to the Goths Rome was never besieged or threatened by Foreign Armies, while the much smaller Byzantine Empire's Capital of Constantinople was besieged dozens of of times and only taken in 1204 AD.

Similar to the German Army of the 1920s, when the need for more manpower is needed the US must go to the Draft OR reduce the need for manpower by withdrawing from Iraq (Look at Rome, other than Caesar's Conquest of Gaul and Claudius Conquest of Britain 100 years later, Rome conquered NO MAJOR new territory after 107 BC (The large war were who was to Rule the Empire NOT to expand the Empire). For example Rome made Greece Roman Territory as opposed to being Roman "Allies" but that was just a matter of Degree not new Conquest, Egypt had been given to Rome BEFORE Caesar took in in 48 BC, so Egypt was not even Conquered. Augustus tried to take Germany, but failed and never tried again for he did not want to raise the Army needed to do the job. Judea was crushed for REVOLTING against Rome in 70 and 132 BC thus not a new Conquest (Judea had first come under Roman Control under Pompey the Great but even that Conquest was more to secure Egypt's border than to take a major new territory for Rome). This tendency NOT to conquer INCREASED under the Empire as the Roman Empire REDUCED its Army requirements by REFUSING to do anything more than defend Roman territory (The major exception to this was Trajan who took what is now Iraq around 112 AD, but his Successor Hadrian gave it right back). Even when the Romans in the 400s turned to German Tribes as Soldiers, these were used to keep the Roman Peasants from revolting then to conquer or retake "lost" Roman Territory to the "Barbarians". Most people in Gaul considered themselves Romans for at least 100 years after what we now called the Roman Empire in the West had Fallen, this was more true of what is now Spain and Italy. This was true as late as Charlemagne time (i.e. around 800 AD). The attempt to re-take the West by the Eastern Empire under Justinian (c 540 AD) was do to opposition to proposed land reforms in the West by the Barbarian overlords (Most land in the 500s were still owned by Roman elites even as technically the areas were now ruled by Germanic tribes). Justinian ordered the attack on the the Germanic Tribes in Italy, Spain and Tunisia to undo these acts of land reforms (taking of land from Roman elites to roman Peasants). The invasion by the Lombards into Italy in 570 AD seems to be tied in with an attempt to reinstate the land reforms that the Justinian had undone during his reign (while most historians used 476 and the abolishment of the last Western Roman Emperor as the end of the Empire, the same people owned most of the land in the West before and after that date (Mostly Roman Elites) and 570 is a more accurate date for the end of the Empire in the West. 570 AD is the date not only of the Lombards invasion of Northern Italy but the start of radical Land Redistribution to the peasants which would lead to more such land reforms during the whole of the Dark Ages. Thus the Dark Ages is one of the few times in history the rich become poorer and the poor became richer (Notice this is tied in with the disappearance of PAID soldiers and the reappearance of peasants Levies raised to protect their homes and farms).

My point here is simple, Militia/Draftee/Universal Military Service Armies if properly Equipped, motivated, organized and lead can defeat ANY Volunteer/Mercenary Army. The key is Motivation. If the choice is which thief is going to take most of the product of your work, such peasant does not care who rules over him and thus hard to motivate except with money (Thus the ease to raise Volunteer/Mercenary Armies). On the other hand a Motivated Army of Militia/Draftees can defeat such Mercenary Armies, even if minimally equipped and trained (do to Motivation and the ease it is to raise an army when the people are Motivated) if property lead and organized (as opposed to an unorganized armed mob). The key is motivation. The Roman Militia Army had no motivation to go to war just to enrich the Roman Elite and thus were terrible soldiers to loot the Mediterranean after Rome become the sole Super Power in Europe after 202 AD. On the other hand hired Mercenaries are easy to recruit if you promise them a share in the spoils and thus the perfect soldiers to loot with. The problem with Mercenaries is you must be able to pay them, if you do not have the money they will leave your service (They can NOT afford to stay, they can stay for a while, even a few years but over time they will HAVE to abandon you just to feed themselves). A motivated Militia is feeding itself and thus a lot cheaper to form up and if motivation is kept up, able to last for years in the field if they believe in what they are fighting for even if food and supplies are scare for years at a time (As was the case with Rome during the decades long first and Second Punic war and first and Second Macedonia Wars).

The Pentagon knows this, the US was defeated by Peasant Levies in Vietnam and the USSR was defeated by Peasant Levies in Afghanistan (And we are having a problem with the same Afghan Levies). Sadr's "Militia" is a such a Levy (Not quite a draft for Sadr's organization is not quite legal, but not a paid force either and consists of most if not all of the Shiites of military age in the Baghdad Slums in effect a de facto draft). While these forces are NOT anywhere near as equipped as is the US Army, these Militia are motivated and has enough equipment, leadership and doctrine to win (As can be seen in Lebanon where the Shiite Militia they held their fire till the situation was to their advantage and then and only then engaged the Israelis).

Thus the key is Motivation not whether someone is a Volunteer/Paid Mercenary or a Draftee/Militia/ Universal Military Service soldier. While it is easier to motivate with money and benefits then any other way, and it is easier to PAY people to train in proper fighting Doctrine when they are paid to do so, and is easier to have people form into organization to fight if that is how they are to be paid, if the same person is motivated by OTHER FACTORS, they can also be motivated to train properly, to obey orders and to stay in formations. It is harder to do so when it comes to draftees but not impossible and if done you can raise a much BETTER army, cheaper than if you rely on money alone.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Agreed, motivation and commitment are the real issues.

And this is what the military folks I know are really talking about. they don't want to fight along side someone who isn't committed.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. And the Volunteer Army is noted for Non-committed troops
Outside of elite units, most people are in the Army for some sort of Training NOT to fight. This is true of Mercenary Armies as while as Draftee Armies. Committed to the battle is hard to achieve, in ancient day it was achieved by giving the troops part of the loot, but our Army gets no extra pay rom looting, it gets its pay and Combat pay and that is all. What incentive do they have to fight once they realize that they are fighting for oil for US Corporations? This is the problem with the Army at the present time, it is deteriorating do to constant fighting destroying their unit Cohesion. Sooner or later this will lead to a complete collapse no matter if the troops are Volunteer or Draftee.
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. YIKES!....no, no, John, bad idea....n/t
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135th Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. The draft is morally disgusting.
It is slavery, and it is unconstitutional. No one should ever support it, least of all a Democrat in 2006. Murtha should watch his mouth. I don't care about his underlying motive, all I get from his statement is a profound dislike of him. Most people who hear this are going to feel the same way.

I also hate the assumption that the rich are not willing to send their children to war. Of course they don't want them there, but that ignores the fact that America has a volunteer military. No one sells their children into the armed forces, the decision to enlist is an individual choice.

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. The Draft has NEVER been unconstitutional
Edited on Wed Sep-06-06 02:25 PM by happyslug
The draft was used during the Revolution (Through volunteers were preferred except when the Militia was called into service). The draft was used by both sides during the Civil War, as while as WWI, WWI Korea Vietnam and the entire Cold War will 1972.

You may NOT like the Draft, but that does NOT make it unconstitutional, no Court has EVER made ruled the Draft unconstitutional. AS to the Anti-Slavery Amendment to the Constitution, the Same Congress that passed it had also passed the Draft Act of 1863. The amendment was carefully written NOT to include the Draft or Mandatory militia Service but also to include Peonage that still existed at that time in New Mexico (Peonage dated from Spanish days, It was later expanded to include the mandatory service of certain tribes in Alaska that dated from the Days Russia ruled Alaska).

One last note, it is the Nations that went from a Draftee/Militia type army to a Voluntary Army that end up as Dictatorships. While Some Dictatorships (Napoleonic France, Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia) had Universal Service Armies, that was do to the need for LARGE number of troops to fight foreign wars (And ALL of these Dictatorships had overwhelming popular support in their home country, this goes for Napoleon as while as Hitler and Stalin). If you remove situations where you had a popular dictator from the Historical Record the record becomes quite clear, Dictatorships prefer Volunteer (i.e. Mercenary Armies) over arming their own people (i.e. Draft/Militia/Universal Service Armers). The reason for this is quite clear, if the Army and people are one and the same, the leadership MUST address the needs of the people for it is the needs of the Army. On the other hand once you go to a Volunteer Army, then all a ruling elite has to do is pay the Troops and hell with the people. When Gorbachev pulled the Russian Troops out of Eastern Europe, the Communist states of Eastern Europe could NOT use their Draftee Armies to stay in power and thus collapsed (The only Country where fighting occurred was in Romania where the Secret Police Tried to keep the Ruling Communist in place, the Army sided with the people and overthrew the Secret Police and the Communist Rulers).

My Point is simple, while some Dictatorships have Draftee Armies, these tend to be fill in the numbers drafts as opposed to universal service drafts. The former are still basically Volunteer Armies and as such good armies that obeys the ruling elites and will back the ruling elites against the people for that is who is paying them. The later, Militia/Universal Service Armies/Draftee Armies have a problem they are NOT separate from the People they are the people and as such such armies can NOT be used to suppress the people.

This is the lesson of History, even the Ancient Greeks notice it, as the Persian Empire abolished the obligations of the people under the Persian yoke to train in and bare arms for the state (This was to make it easier for Persia to rule the Greeks who lived on what is now Turkey). Rome did the same, abolish local use of arms of the people they conquered (And after the adoption of the Mercenary army in 107 BC forbidding their own people from training in arms). This is the one lesson of history that is frequently forgotten, if you want freedom, you can NOT have a mercenary Army. The only alternative to a Mercenary Army is a Draftee/Universal Service/ Militia Army. Thus if you want Freedom you have to pay a price and historically that has been some sort of mandatory Universal Military Service. If you do not WANT a Draftee/Militia/Universal Service Army be prepared to pay the price of the resulting Mercenary Army doing what its pay master wants done, even if that is against what the people as a whole want done. You pay the price either way, the real issue which price do you prefer to pay?
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