Is Voluntary Military Service Honerable?

[ThomWV]

This morning I see a post in which a lady tells us her son has enlisted in the military. There have been many similar posts. Most responses to the post offer sympathy to the author.

Here is the question:

Do you consider it honerable for one to enlist in this nation's military without regard to politics.

[Ravenseye]

1. Other - It's honorable, but should be discouraged.

Did you know that before World War 2 we had a military smaller than Finland's?

Granted it's a different world today and we need a bigger military than that, but it's still so overly bloated, and robs our country of necessary domestic needs like basic infrastructure, health care, public transportation...

Or if you like just our own money.

Military service is honorable, but how our country is currently using the military is dishonorable. Our military should be used to protect us and our allies from harm, and not for the bullshit that is currently going on in Iraq.

[Dulcinea]

54. Yes.

"Military service is honorable, but how our country is currently using the military is dishonorable." That says it all.

[11 Bravo]

2. Yup. It's also honorable.

[ThomWV]

4. Sorry, Couldn't Get The Spell Checker To Work

And I spell poorly.

[11 Bravo]

5. No sweat.

I'm a smart ass by nature, and as an ex-teacher, also something of a spelling Nazi.

[Lowell]

3. Honorable

as a vet with 15 years service I would hate to think it was all for nothing. Someone has to make the sacrifice. We should be grateful to our young people who put their country first, regardless of the political atmosphere of the times.

[acmejack]

14. As a disabled veteran I have to agree.

To be told that I am a dishonorable scoundrel to boot is a real kick in the crotch. I at least always thought I was doing something for the people of the Country, not necessarily good or noble, but I always understood that I served.

[trogdor]

55. I wouldn't have joined if it weren't honorable.

22 years Army. Retired from the USAR in 2004.

Of course, I would still encourage any teenager today to sit out the current clusterfuck. An honorable way to die, if you're a Klingon, but utterly unnecessary.

[TahitiNut]

60. Yep. It is 'We The People' who have NOT done our duty.

National service is honorable in submitting to the will of the American people. When the American people fail to diligently ensure that the deployment of our military does honor to our nation and ourselves, it is the honor of the NATION that is sullied.

Our national honor has been sacrificed on the altar of sloth, greed, and cowardice. It is We The People who have been Absent WithOut Leave. Democracy is not a spectator sport. Sitting back and saying "not my fault" or "let George do it" aren't honorable options. Where are the equivalent sacrifices by the people? Where's the national strike by the 50% who (supposedly) recognize the criminality of this regime? Why aren't people in the streets by the millions instead of just occasionally by the thousands?

Scapegoating the troops is easy ... and cowardly. :grr:

[peace13]

6. Honorable but should be discouraged

until we get an administration that respects each life that has volunteered! They volunteered to protect not have their lives squandered at the whim of political idiots!!

[bryant69]

8. The problem with that theory is that we change administrations so often

The nature of American Democracy - we might very well have both the House and the White House and maybe the senate by 2008 and then lose them by 2012 or 2016.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Not_Longer_Than_20_C]

35. Politicians, like diapers,

should be changed frequently. And for the same reason.

[dogday]

7. Despite the politics of this President

Military service is Honorable and is needed.. Guard for US emergencies and events, and the regular army to protect us if we are attacked....

These guys may be saving our asses one day, they are very much honorable for volunteering to do so...

[Fierce]

9. It's honorable, but not inherently.

Like any job, it's what you do with it.

[wuushew]

10. Absolutely not

The noble mythology of self-sacrifice and love of country has not in any way matched the actual events in which U.S. military might has been used.

The record of the Amerkian military over the last 30 years is very shameful with only a few exceptions in limited peace keeping missions. Even the until recently popular "Gulf War One" was just a sad excuse to run 100,000 Iraqi conscripts through our prized military industrial meat grinder.


Is the profession of solider any more "honorable" than that of fireman, doctor or police officer?

[etherealtruth]

11. I just can't separate the "politics"

I was born during the Vietnam war and have witnessed (how many?) wars that were purely used for political gain ... I can't trust our politicians to use our military wisely and morally.

If I could somehow separate the "politics" ... I would have to say that it was honorable but should neither be blanketly encouraged or discouraged. Determinations would need to be made based upon an individuals skill set and temperament/personality. Many people have served in the military very honorably and have thrived (the relationship should be mutually beneficial)

[Dhalgren]

12. Volunteering for the military is as honorable or dishonorable

as the person volunteering. Volunteer soldiers are mercenaries, and as with any other profession, it can be honorable or dishonorable.

[Retired AF Dem]

36. "Volunteer soldiers are mercenaries"

So I guess you are for the draft?

[Dhalgren]

39. Great logical progression, there...

Mercenaries are not always bad. It depends on how they are used. I think that a democracy that wants to stay a democracy must have a conscripted, citizen army. The US, on the other hand, isn't a democracy. I wouldn't accept a draft from the corporations - we aren't part of them and have no stake in their survival. So, if the corporations want an army, they'd better hire one - and they have! I wouldn't want the corporations drafting US citizens; no, I think that if they want an army they should just prey on the poor and the disadvantaged - like they are doing now, it is, after all, what they do best...

[OnionPatch]

13. Yes, it's quite honorable

To be willing to defend one's country with one's own life, yes. Honorable. The question to me has never been whether or not the troops are honorable. Our leaders of today dishonor our troops by sending them to wars that have nothing to do with our national security.

Yes, it's *honorable* to join the service, but during an administration like the one we have now, I'm pretty sure it's not very *sane.*

[porphyrian]

15. My anti-Aristotelean-essentialism caveat.

There are things about the military that are honorable, and things that are dishonorable. There are also a variety of honorable and dishonorable intentions involved in each person's enlistment. Thus, we cannot say that enlisting in the military is one or the other, or that the reasons for doing so are one or the other, except on an individual basis. Even then, the act itself does not contain some inherent honor property. It is also important to point out that being honorable and doing the right thing are not necessarily one in the same.

That said, I do believe that it is possible to enlist in an honorable manner without regard to politics. I doubt that most people do it for this reason, I doubt that they do it without regard to politics and I don't believe that you can participate in the military without any regard to politics as it's all politics in the upper ranks (the President is the Commander in Chief, after all).

Edit: omitted a "say"

[Selatius]

18. I'll stand behind your words. n/t

[Xenotime]

16. The military is a bloated organization..

They do terrible things to our sons and daughters then don't support them after the war. Esp. when they have been under repug leadership.

[Retired AF Dem]

37. The military does not have to support them

it is up to the civilian govt to do so. And it has done a piss poor job of it for the past thirty years.

[lonestarnot]

17. Not when people are willing to kill for a bushitler vendetta!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

19. Honorable but people need to know what they're REALLY getting into

I think that military service, although NOT for me, is generally "honorable" and I believe that anybody who is prepared to sacrifice their lives for their country should certainly be commended. However, I am concerned that the military seems to be promoting the "perks" (i.e. education, etc.) of military service more and more at the expense of fully explaining the tremendous obligations involved thereof.

[The2ndWheel]

20. I don't know

Not a fan of becoming an agent of the state, especially if it's an imperial one.

That said, people gotta do what they gotta do. Financial reasons, personal choices, family history, whatever.

Plus standing armies will be used.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Killing people is not "honorable".

The 4 years I spent in the Marine Crotch, doing stupid things, for stupid people, for even stupider reasons, is the biggest waste of time in my life.

But, the biggest insult was the idea that I was supposed to kill people because some politicians wanted me to.

[libertad]

28. I spent 4 years in the Navy, and I felt it was honorable. I chose

to look at it as "defending our country". But, back then we didn't believe in "pre-emptive war", etc.

[MadHound]

22. At this point in time, and in fact for the past thirty years

I wouldn't say dishonorable, but perhaps foolish is the better word. You are giving control of your life over to people and powers that have no qualms about throwing that life away in illegal, immoral wars for greed and imperialism. Vietnam should be an example for all to see, a ridiculous, unwinnable war fought for greed and empire that wasted an entire generation of soldiers.

Don't get me wrong, I think that in and of itself service to your country is an honorable thing to do. However, when you put control of your life in the hands of those who are going to dishonor that service, then you are going to look foolish and dishonorable. And it has been evident for thirty year that such is the intention of our government. There are other ways of serving one's country besides the military, and at this point in our country's history, I would recommend those alternatives over the military any day of the week.

[genie_weenie]

23. Much paper has been used to make

people equate the Nation-State with their family. Nation-States when taken in whole context are Evil. Period. The ideal of Nationalism has allowed several genocides, Native Americans (1492-1890), Armenians (1915), Jews (1930s-1945), Tibetians (1949).

And the current Government has ensured the right people will be forced into service. This is acheived by:
A public education system which indoctrinates children into love of country, (my country right or wrong) and obediance to Authority,
curtailing job opportunities and keeping wages supressed (illegal immigrants, out-sourcing and no minimum wage increases),
Millions of tax dollars spent on flashy advertising (which tells young men that serving will make them as hard as a diamond, as tough as Bruce Lee, and have 19yr old blondes with 36DD chests throwing themselves at the them).

This allows the Proper Class to continue to run the Nations industries, military and Government apparatuses while channelling the anger of the lesser Americans away from them...

[EFerrari]

24. Before he was killed in battle, Wilfred Owen called it the old lie:

"Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."

[Bridget Burke]

25. Yet he returned to The Front.

His "shell shock" would have provided an excuse to avoid any further active service.

But he was an experienced officer & thought more men would survive under his command than under a green officer. Owen had no illusions about the War--but he had honor.

[EFerrari]

26. Yes, and that's where the only honor lies, in our service people. n/t

[libertad]

27. It is honorable, but should not be encouraged. I served and

I feel that it was the right thing for me to do, but if was young again, at this point in history, I would NOT choose to serve this Commander In Chief.

[Sammy Pepys]

29. Honorable service....

...is deifned by those carry it out. Military service certainly something worth commending, but whether that service is indeed honorable depends on the actions of those who carry it out.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Depends on the army: joining the US army isn't,

But becoming e.g. a UN peacekeeper arguably is.

I think that fighting for a good cause is good, and fighting for a bad one is bad.

As such, I don't think joining the US army at present is morally justifiable at present, but at some points in the future it may be.

There appears to be a widely-held view that for soldiers professional ethics supercede the other kind - that a soldier who follows orders and does his duty is doing the right thing even if those orders are to do bad things. I am inclined to disagree with this.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. I haven't a clue, I'm afraid.

It may be that they simply use national armies - I don't know for sure; it's not a career I've ever considered.

[cc488is]

43. Exactly

They get their "peacekeepers" from national armies. Many of them not very effective.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. They usually do better than the US is doing in Iraq.

Not that that's a great achievement or anything. But their presence usually cools heads a bit, at least.

[cc488is]

49. Right

They were so effective in Bosnia. I forgot about that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. I admit the merit of eventual peace in THAT one goes to Clinton and Clark.

They were able to rally NATO nicely. Thanks to them, Milosevic spent the rest of his days in jail and things there improved. Thank God it was all more or less over before Dubya could stick his incompetent finger in there. Don't you agree?

By the way: are you implying that the troubles in former Yugoslavia played out WORSE than Iraq?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. You don't seem too fond of the big bad UN.

Should a "strongest country calls all shots" model be more palatable to you?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. Of course. The question is, what's the CAUSE of that ineffectiveness?

For instance, why wasn't the UN more forceful upon th unwarrantedness of the Iraq war? Things like that are trully infuriating, as is Rwanda and others. Gridlock abounds there.

However, it's better than nothing.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

62. Would "nothing" have been an improvement there? -nt

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

64. What you think were the causes of the inaction? -nt

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

66. Heh. I love the Socratic method.

It always works.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. That's what they do. Armies of neutral, non-war-giddy countries

are usually preferred.

Brazil often sends forces to such missions. Haiti, Suez Canal, and a few others inbetween. It's a source of great pride for us, since it's usually true peacekeeping, not advancement of shady interests.

[johnaries]

31. Once Bush is out of office, it will be honorable and should be

encouraged.
But while he's in office it should be discouraged.

[petronius]

32. Offering your service to your country is clearly honorable...

What is dishonorable is when the civilian 'leadership' chooses to use that service in ways that are not in the best interest of the country...

[Zavulon]

33. Military service as a whole didn't all of a sudden become

dishonorable because a psychotic fucktard took office. Like most here I question the validity and sanity of some of our current missions, but to imply that voluntary military service is something dishonorable is an insult to anyone who ever wore the uniform.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. Other: case by case

I don't think it's intrinsically either. Most people just go to it because it looks like the best option at the time.

There are kids who went in to get out of some kind of mess, and there are kids who went in because they want to blow things up. I don't think they are particularly honorable in serving.

But some people obviously are honoring an ideal when they join. You may disagree with the ideal but the person has honor.

I saw the post referred to and I don't think the woman was "dishonoring" her son or his service; she would just prefer for him to do some other honorable thing that doesn't involve possibly dying in an illegal and pointless war. And she didn't provide enough information for us to know whether his intentions in joining were honorable or not.

[Vidar]

38. Honorable but not at present.

[michreject]

41. Honorable and to be encourged

Served with pride.
US Army 1970-1972

Our country will be here long after shrub has left office.

[goddess40]

44. Other - Honorable under real circumstances

For those that signed after all the information about the WMD being a lie I do question their motives. For those that were in prior to bush's crusade I feel sorry for them - their choice were limited:
1) to believe the obvious lie and kill a lot of innocent people,
2 go to Iraq knowing it's wrong with some misguided notion that you are obligated to follow illegal orders or to avoid prosecution (and possible "friendly" fire)*
3) stand up and say I won't fight in an illegal and immoral war and go to trial.

*I also understand that many of our soldiers don't have the intellectual capabilities to understand the illegality of this crusade and that there is some brain washing and a lot of propaganda (lies) fed to them during boot camp and wherever they are stationed.

[Vickers]

45. I served honorably under a couple of douchebags.

Their ineptitude didn't lessen my achievements.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. The correct choice is missing from that poll:

"It all depends on the circumstances."

For example, I wouldn't mind much if a child of mine joined tha Brazilian armed forces (although I'd point out there are better careers out there). But in the US, now? A whole different can of worms.

[Protagoras]

53. Other

It's not inherently anything. People are honorable or not based on their actions. I served (during peace time and GF1) and frankly most of the recruits who went thru basic training with me joined for a whole variety of reasons that had little to do with Honor...oh sure a few probably felt very red-white-and-blue (I did when I was 18 and now wonder where my head was) but what I remember were there to Pay for college/easy secure job/avoiding criminal penalty/panicing because a kid was on the way, etc.

In other words, many many were there for private reasons. The Military was a job. They had applied because for a variety of reasons. Often they needed the pay check.

Most weren't there because they thought they were going to save the world. That doesn't mean some didn't. It doesn't mean that their service would not or could not be honorable. But it means that the motivations differ, and the character of their service differs.

I feel like I served well. I learned what I was supposed to learn. I did my time. Then I was done. Being sent over to Kuwait was something that happened to most of my friends and their reactions were all over the board. I didn't see HONOR in it. I saw normal, scared people reacting in all the normal scared ways. If that's honorable then I see honor all around me every day. I applaud it, but I don't think it's unique to the military. And I don't think the military has a greater dose of it than many many other professions.

Honor is something that should be earned, not something that's pinned to one's chest simply because you enlist.

Perhaps we need to clarify what we mean when we say "Honorable" otherwise most such discussions become circular.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. You put it much better than I could.

Otherwise, GMTA. :yourock:

[Solly Mack]

59. In and of itself? No. How you conduct yourself as a soldier? Yes

I know a lot of soldiers who have no business being soldiers.