My take on the ongoing Steve Irwin DU situation.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

There's an old "Night Court" episode I'm rather fond of- in it we meet Bull Shannon's mom. She's a tough old biddy- she's a New York Harbor tugboat captain. And she seemingly takes an immediate dislike to Harry.

Harry tries so hard. Throughout the entire episode he tries to win her affection, only to be spurned each time. He can't understand it. So he finally asks her why she won't warm up to him.

She frowns for a moment then answers. "Harry," she says, "you just can't like everybody."

Exactly. You just can't like EVERYBODY.

Steve Irwin, it is obvious, had a great many loyal fans. He did good things, and he had a worldwide following. He had a loving wife and children, and he made a name for himself in the world that he can be proud of.

That said, I simply didn't care for him. I have no grudge against him, and I do know his works, and I approve. However, his personality simply grated on me.

I'm certain I'd react the same way if I met one or two of you. I sometimes clash. Big deal. I even fight with my sister, and we're best friends. We just don't happen to see eye to eye on all things. Is there a man or woman here who can say they've never met someone they just didn't cotton to?

This morning I expressed my personal opinion of a man, then went on to say it was nothing personal and his family and fans had my condolences. And that hasn't changed. Steve Irwin was a man who lived his life well, and I'll never take that from him. I should be so lucky as to have an eulogy anywhere close to that when it's my time.

But dammit, Harry, you just can't like everybody. So please don't keep trying to make me.

[Kiouni]

1. well said

it seems this is a common theme with people, if it's topical it in appropriate to go against. I personally liked irwin and his loss is saddening but i can see how some people would like his show. But like Bono or Jolie, he used his celebrity status for good, so he should be commended none the less.
I see your point though, it's like when i said "the passion" was a dumb movie, i meant it was a dumb movie not that i didn't like JC.

[MADem]

2. Certainly.

You can't like everybody. Of course, there's no need to pee on the guy's casket, either. I think that's the troubling bit--not vis a vis you, specifically, but generally.

It's not like he owned Diebold, shot a lawyer during a shooting party in TX, or contributed to the Swiftboat fund.

He behaved a bit "over the top" and some didn't like his risk-taking and what appeared to be 'baiting' of wild animals. Some just hated hearing the 'G'Day' and 'Crikey' and felt it was a bit affected.

I don't think any of his alleged 'crimes' rise to what I'd term impeachable levels, thus, I'll go with the adage 'If ya can't say something nice, don't say anything at all' for this circumstance!

I'm actually surprised at how exorcised people are about this matter. This sort of drama is usually reserved for ire over missing blondes or stories of that nature.

[sandnsea]

3. Who asked you to?

Nobody. People have asked for some basic respect for the dead. And since you brought mothers into the topic, do y'all seriously not have mothers who didn't teach you about respectful silence when someone has passed?? I can't believe there is one mother who would approve of their child disrespecting someone on the day he or she died. If you don't like him, don't like him. It's not necessary for anybody to trash the man. The way DU behaves when somebody passes is the worst thing about the place. It's revolting.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

5. Don't you EVER tell me how to mourn.

I've buried all my grandparents, both parents, one brother, and more than a few friends. The first time I was a pallbearer I was just fourteen years old. I've been there and I've done that enough times to have a lifetime's fill of grief.

[sandnsea]

8. So why have disrespect for someone else's family???

If you know so much about it, I'd think you'd know enough to know that you don't go around trashing somebody else's family.

[AlwaysQuestion]

14. So, why try?

So, why do you even try to justify your feelings? They're YOUR feelings which you don't need to justify to anyone. I don't think you've been disrespectful at all. I think your pov has been well thought out and presented. Moreover, I think you've been honest--and that in my books counts for a helluva lot (whether I should agree with you or not).

[WilliamPitt]

34. Congratuations

Get in line.

I've buried more loved ones than I care to list.

Have some respect for the dead.

A simple request.

[cboy4]

15. YES! Perfect. Everything you said I agree with. It's just revolting.

And what's hilarious (in a not at all hilarious way), is that so many people just don't get it.

[Guaranteed]

29. It's as if somebody's death is our cue to pore over their life

and cast our own judgment upon them.

Is that the way it works? :eyes:

[cboy4]

35. Apparently it does at DU

:eyes:

[Matariki]

55. Really? I did a little dance the day Reagan died.

[sandnsea]

58. DU was tacky that day too n/t

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

6. I have seen it like this before over other deaths here at DU.

It was like this when Reggie White died and also when the Pope died.

[TahitiNut]

9. DU is OK ... until it starts eating its young. It's dinner time again.

Every onece in a while we have an orgy of navel-gazing self-righteousness ... and it's ALWAYS about something upon which we each regard ourselves as having a superior outlook. Death and dying is one such topic - sex is another - and "taste" is ALWAYS the measuring stick.

[cboy4]

18. I'm not going to let anyone get away with celebrating any decent human

being's death without laying into them.

I can promise you that.

[demobabe]

26. Who celebrated Irwin's death?

I haven't seen a single posting. I've seen one where they said "good riddance," but that's about it.

[cboy4]

27. There have been plenty of people....why the hell do you think this topic

is so emotional and controversial?

I mean, check out the original post in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2048652

[demobabe]

28. Plenty of people?

I'm checking out the original post. That guy isn't celebrating Irwin's death and just posted a page of a few tacky graphics (which I'm sure we'll see more of), but that's not any kind of celebration.

He even said "Look -- Steve knew just as well as everybody else that he was completely over-the-top and audacious! His character and on-screen persona absolutely made him the subject of much comedy and jokes. He knew it, he revelled in it, and I am completely certain he'd respect every bit of it."

Yes, it is emotional and controversial, but there is no celebration going on.

[cboy4]

30. Do you really not see how the OP was setting everyone up with

that seemingly reasonable enough response, only to trick everyone into looking at those photos?

And did you see all of the deleted posts in that thread??

You have no idea what was written, correct?

I however do. I read them all.

So please don't lecture me that there is "no celebration going on."

[demobabe]

32. It isn't there

Come on. There was never any celebratory postings. I read them all too. Give me a break.

[cboy4]

37. I do not believe that you have read every thread since this morning and

can come to the conclusion that there "was never" any celebratory postings!

That is outrageous.

You sound like a White House spokesperson.

[demobabe]

38. yes, I have read every thread

Fine. Grammatical error. You win!

Now about those postings: The burden of proof is on you.

That's how logic and factual statements work. You say something and you back it up with proof.

You haven't shown me any proof. All you offer is a sample of bad grammar as proof you're right.

You can do better. I know you can!

[cboy4]

39. You make an accusation that is false, and I have to do all of the research

for you??

I don't think so Scott McClellan. You're the one making the claim. Not me.

The burden of proof is on the accuser.

Why don't you look around and draw some simple conclusions?

Why would there be so many posts about this subject if it was not controversial?

The next logical question would be, "why is it controversial?"

It's mostly controversial because some people are mocking and celebrating his death.

It's the lack of sensitivity and sympathy that's sparking outrage and you know that.

[demobabe]

41. My accusation isn't false. Your supposition appears to be, though.

There are people that are upset. But then there are some people here who are devastated if their rice isn't sticky enough.

Because there are a lot of posts do not prove that postings - which you say are now gone - were ever there.

Could be a whole lot of Freepers came over today and decided they had nothing better to do than stir up crap.

Nobody here is celebrating his death. Get a grip.

[cboy4]

43. Nobody is celebrating his death? Not even just one person? I did not

realize you are the self-appointed spokesperson of all 90,000-plus DU members and that you had interviewed everyone to reach that conclusion! LOL

[ForrestGump]

31. Most of the very worst of it has been deleted

That would be why you are not seeing much in the way of the kind of attacks on the man's memory that set this all off.

[demobabe]

33. Posts have been deleted

But they were attacks on DUers and not people celebrating Irwin's death. I'm not stupid.

[ForrestGump]

36. What

Ever.

Just trying to help.

[TahitiNut]

53. Q.E.D.

:shrug: :boring:

[charlie]

25. Yeah, funny that

Get used to it, happens all the time. Spending a whole day in righteous high dudgeon is too irresistable.

[ContraBass Black]

52. "I don't think I've ever seen anything like this."

Doesn't this happen on DU every time someone famous who isn't a Republican official dies?

[OzarkDem]

60. Its not just about Steve Irwin

Its about the refusal of many to accept unkind, hurtful behavior when someone decent dies.

Some folks are just fed up with it, and have every right to speak out and object.

[Quixote1818]

7. Apples and Oranges

Not liking someone and celebrating their death are two completely different things. Most of the posts people were upset at were those that seemed to be almost glad he was dead. Their are plenty of people I didn't like when they were alive, but when I heard they died I tried my best to respect them. I can see someone celebrating the death of someone like Hitler and perhaps even Rove or Bush as they have done so many evil things and have hurt so many people and damaged the world. However, being glad Steve Irwin is dead is just plane cold blooded and those posts should be pointed out and condemned.

On the other hand, I don't think it's been that bad at all. I have only seen like two posts that were downright nasty. Now we have a number of posts saying DU is going to hell in a hand-basket because of just two evil, nasty posts. I think they are over reacting. If their are only two people out of the 94,000 members, who are ripping on Steve Irwin the day he died, thats hardly anything to even wince at.

[LostinVA]

47. Many more than two nasty posts

Many were -- thankfully -- deleted.

[demobabe]

10. You're trying to deal with this rationally...

...which is the sane way to approach things. But a lot of what is going on here doesn't even have to do with the perceived subject of Irwin's death.

There are people here that are truly grieving, there are some people here that really believe some folks have been insensitive (and indeed, some folks have been insensitive).

But then there are other people who are using this situation to try to influence and turn other DUers against each other - it is political and it sucks.

They go on and on about this or that person's lack of respect or insensitivity or whatever... The reality is that they're using the dead guy to try to influence people here to promote their own standing on the DU.

This is corrupt and sick and makes me nauseous.

This (mostly) isn't about Steve Irwin. This is a pissing match between mini-political sects on the DU and it takes the whole community down.

It sucks.

It really sucks.

Sucks.

Sucks.

Sucks.

[Eurobabe]

12. Nothing different than the in-fighting during the primaries

which really left a sour taste in many people's mouths.

You can't make people like or dislike someone. That is what the little x is for, put the thread on ignore and save your hair.

Sad, but true, some people are just insensitive louts.

[sandnsea]

17. Quite different, somebody is dead n/t

[demobabe]

23. If it were as easy as clicking the ignore x, that would be easy

The problem is that there are folks here using the dead guy to try to make you like them, and trying to manipulate you to not like other people.

Unfortunately, people fall for it.

And instead of having rational discourse here, we have these crazy discussions that make no sense given the situation and a huge amount of DUers at each other's throats.

They use peer pressure to try to make you believe if you don't agree with them, you are WRONG and should be ostracized.

And then they get their groups of people and set up coordinated attacks to try to tombstone people and shut down threads here.

It's a cancer which sadly has infected some members that are considered influential here, and it's more than can be cured by clicking the little x box.

It's a sick ego war, and I don't have any good ideas of what to do.

[astral]

13. We could offer a voluntary group-effort prayer

to help his wife and children, and why not friends and fans, heal. I knew not of this man before, although I realized I had seen him before a couple of times. But his painful sudden death in the prime of his very fruitful life made me sad. And his bereaved wife and two children make me sad as well. And seeing people talk about / post about how they cried when he died, children who only were TV fans of him cried, this is a time to pull together as humanity and send prayers out to the people involved, not to rip each other a new one for having feelings.

It's amazing to see on this forum how some people can come and poop on someone else's sacred space. If you don't give a $h!+ about the guy, nor the feelings of those speaking of him, why bring ugliness and bad feelings in where none are needed nor asked for?

Why make the extra effort to come in there and be that way???

It boils down to positive vibrations vs. negative vibrations. Positive people vs. negative people. Spiritual people feeling moved by a tragic event vs. soul-less people who like to brag about their soul-less-ness.

It's interesting to see. I wasn't used to it as I hadn't been coming here all that often. It's too bad. But maybe "THOSE" there people need my prayers too. . . . that may be a challenge.

[demobabe]

22. Prayer is good

...and anyone who chooses can pray for his family - that is something any and all can do. Count me in.

"THOSE" people you refer to aren't necessarily soul-less, they just are seeking what they need to fill their needs. Maybe looking at it this way will allow you to forgive them and give them your prayers, as they need spirituality's light.

Death and grief brings out the bizarre and it also brings out completely irrational behaviors. I've said this a million times on a million threads that when someone dies, you have to let people grieve their own way. Even if they say things you don't agree with or perceive as pooping on someone else's sacred space. Things aren't always what they seem.

This isn't a funeral home. This is an online discussion board. This is the kind of stuff you get with any discussion board (and often in humanity, too). If it were just a battle of positive vs. negative, I could handle that, but there is sadly much more and it has nothing to do with respecting the dead or anybody else here.

In life, there is a balance, light and darkness, good and bad, positive and negative, life and death. We can't have all good or all enlightenment or all positive - that isn't the way of the universe. However, I could really use a break from the ego battles (not you) going on here on the DU.

[TahitiNut]

11. Gee, imagine how much more attention he'd get if he died in Aruba.

A blond, white guy. They get all the attention. After all, who cares about the Iraqis who died in the last couple of days due to our tax dollars??

:evilgrin:

[REP]

16. A Serious Response

I've been wondering about his myself - why is this death getting so much coverage and discussion? Yes, being killed by a stingray is highly unusual, and a host of wild animal series being killed by a wild yet normally placid animal is highly unusual ... but is it worth this much coverage?

Reading the OP and other posts, and just thinking about seeing the guy on TV - he was one of those people whose personality made people feel more familiar with him than they really were. In the OP's case, this familiarity bred dislike, but many people found him likeable (I admit I am one of them) and rather than a stranger seen on TV dying unexpectedly, it seems more like an actual friend or acquaintance dying, even though that is not the case for most.

That he died in what is usually called the "peak of life" - 44 - must strike a nerve, too.

Yes, US soldiers and Iraqis died today. That is horrible and sadly at this point, predictable. This death 'feels' different, though when you get right down to it, just as pointless as the ones in Iraq.

[The Straight Story]

20. The reason why is

So many people knew him. Sure, not face to face, but they saw him a lot and liked his show. He was familiar to them.

Lots of people die everyday and we don't get impacted. Take a look at the obits in the paper today.

But when it is someone you personally connect with it is different. They won't be seeing him any more, they have seen his family time and again, and can relate to them in this case.

Many of us lost someone we enjoyed seeing. Gone forever. It hurts, because in some way, at some level, we knew him.

[REP]

21. Yes - What I Said

Glad you agree!

[cboy4]

24. EXACTLY.

:applause:

[LostinVA]

48. Also, viewers got to "grow up" with his family

We saw him get married, his wife pregnant and in labor, the kids growing up and interacting with their parenst... plus, I loved the conservation work he did. The shows, especially the Croc Diaries one, and several "bio" episodes, brought viewers into their home. We saw Steve-O cry about his Mum dying, and crying and holding his beloved dog Sui while she died... and his sobs when his first croc Mary died and he had to bury her.

*sigh*

[Quixote1818]

19. Come to think of it, I never liked Harry from Night Court.

I am with Bull's mom on Harry. He irritated me big time! On the day Harry dies however, you wont find me saying anything bad about Harry.


This has been a weird day here on DU. :beer:

[ima_sinnic]

40. so why say anything at all? "I expressed my personal opinion, then

went on to say it was nothing personal." the blatant ridiculousness of that escapes you?
it wasn't enough to simply express your condolences? you had to say, I'm sorry for your loss BUT ... ?
and then to come back again to try to "justify" it?

Your whole post is just totally defensive justifications -- "I have no grudge against him, I do know his works, and I approve, HOWEVER ..." You always have to get in that last little dig.

But it boils down to this: it's NOT ABOUT YOU, it's about him.

Believe me, I have no "respect for the dead" simply to have respect, when they didn't earn it. My vitriol was quite evident when Reagan was memorialized ad nauseum, and Nixon--these were people whose abuse of power AFFECTED ME PERSONALLY in direct and indirect ways. You're not even claiming to have been affected by him in any particular way, you just didn't "like" him. There is a time and place to keep your dislike to yourself because it serves absolutely no constructive purpose whatsoever.

btw, I haven't seen anybody "try to make you" "like" Steve Irwin.

[durrrty libby]

42. It is nearly impossible to teach common decency and manners to adults

but nice try.

:applause:

[ima_sinnic]

44. are we dealing with an "adult" here?

I simply don't understand the need to tell everybody that one didn't like someone. what's the point?

[durrrty libby]

46. Yes …unfortunately they are adults

Rude, insensitive, classless adults

Many of us were surprised at how nasty they were. But in thinking about it,

It shouldn’t be that surprising.

Don’t you see more and more discourteous and ill mannered people on a
daily basis?

It’s a national disease.

[LynneSin]

45. Who cares if we liked him - Kids loved him

That show was never geared towards adults but for kids to learn about nature and all the great animals out there. This wasn't a cartoon or an oversize purple dinosaur singing bad tunes, but a man with a love for animals who loved showing them off in a bit of an adventure each week.

His show wasn't for adults but for kids and kids at heart.

For anyone who criticizes the show I feel a bit bad for because somewhere along the line you lost your sense of childhood!

[LostinVA]

49. The SO and I have done "Cat Hunter" for years

Making believe we're Steve, talking like him, while we crawl across the floor and capture a "Wily cobby cat. Crikey! Isn't she a beaut???"

The SO is really upset.

[mmonk]

50. Someone forcing you to like him? How is that?

[Andrushka]

51. As an Aussie,

and looking through DU as I do each day, I am just astounded at the amount of threads and posts this has generated! I knew that he was a hell of a lot bigger over there than down there (I am in Japan right now...stay with me, now), but jeez, these past two days have been something else!

I'll reserve my personal thoughts on the bloke, but I just thought I'd say that I am really surprised at what I have seen! A lot of hot air and wasted energy, too. Can you lot get back to more important things now? You know, like ridding the world of the crime family in your big house there? I'm rooting for youse! (and I mean that in the American sense, not in the Aussie sense :D )

[TahitiNut]

56. We're having a Labor Day Sale on high-horses in the U.S.

:silly:

More seriously ... such topics require absolutely NO EXPERTISE or academic grounding to have an opinion one deems to be 'correct' and 'better than yours.' Thus, many folks become wannabe Rush Limbaugh's pontificating on "The Way Things Should Be." Unconstrained by any generally-accepted expectation of credentials or skills, many folks adopt their perceived posture of 'expert' or 'moral guide' and take up their bucket of tar and bag of feathers, ready for jihad. In business, I called this the "bicycle shed syndrome" - weighing in at great length on a topic of little direct importance but easy to presume personal expertise. In the meantime, topics of major significance to human life, liberty, and well-being (but unfortunately requiring greater effort to comprehend) go undiscussed and unexamined.

I find it amusing that so many DUers base their opinions of Irwin's activities on the same basis as those alleged Americans who supposedly think Junior C-czar would be god to have a beer with. (God save me from media personas.)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. I didn't like him either.

But that's no excuse for the trolls to be mocking him and celebrating his death.

[Liberal_Dog]

57. No Biggie

We all have our own likes and dislikes.

[TheFriedPiper]

59. Can we get a Steve Irwin Forum?

And get all this crap moved there?

Then we can get back to discussing IMPORTANT things in GD.

[OzarkDem]

61. Its not going to make a difference

Somewhere along the way a line has been crossed and people have decided to stop ignoring some of the more destructive behavior here. It had to happen eventually, things have really gone downhill lately. While rude and boorish behavior has always been a part of DU, its prevalence lately has passed the tolerance level of a lot of people.

[TheFriedPiper]

62. I've lurked here for a really long time

and it doesn't seem any worse to me.

The christians still go crazy when anyone refutes their religious assertions.

The atheists (myself included) still get irritable when bombarded with religious assertions.

People still spend a WHOLE lot of time arguing about silly celebrity crap instead of developing a strategy to save America from the Republicans.

All in all, it's the same ol DU, with a few different faces.

Gotta love it. It's the only one we got.