Evangelicals intensify calls for parents to pull kids from public schools

[MikeNearMcChord]

NEW YORK (AP) — Public schools take a lot of criticism, but a growing, loosely organized movement is now moving from harsh words to action — with parents taking their own children out of public schools and exhorting other families to do the same.

Led mainly by evangelical Christians, the movement depicts public education as hostile to religious faith and claims to be behind a surge in the number of students being schooled at home.

"The courts say no creationism, no prayer in public schools," said Roger Moran, a Winfield, Mo., businessman and member of the Southern Baptist Convention executive committee. "Humanism and evolution can be taught, but everything I believe is disallowed."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2006-09-02-evangelicals-schools_x.htm

[tallahasseedem]

1. Good.

I dont want them around my kids anyway.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Only problem is

every kid who leaves is a financial loss to the school district.

[ComerPerro]

9. don't they still pay taxes anyway? So does it matter?

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Yes it matters

and yes they pay taxes but districts receive state aid based on attendance. So when they lose kids, they lose money. This is why the charter schools in KCMO have been so damaging to that district. 20% of the kids have left to go to charters, which means the district has lost 20% of its state aid.

[ComerPerro]

12. yeah, good point.

[Critters2]

18. So-called "progressives" are doing the same here

I have four families in my church who home school. They have this silly notion that it's the progressive thing to do, and can't understand why I'm not supportive. They simpy do not understand that we have a responsibiity to all the children in our community, not just the ones who share our last names. No sense of a social contract.

Makes me crazy!

[mzteris]

24. sorry - but -

I have an obligation to my child first.

I pay taxes. I support ps. I vote. I buy all those things they sell. I have kids in ps.

But - for my one son - PS did not work. What should I do? Say - oh well, son. Too bad you can't get the education you need and deserve. You have to suck it up and get dumbed down with the rest of 'em. Your ag/ld designation just isn't recognized and isn't accommodated. You just aren't entitled to soar to the heights you can attain.

yeah. right. sure.

Tell you what. For everyone who truly believes that ALL kids deserve exactly the "same" - Why don't you take half the food off of your kids' plates and take it to the poor side of town for the kids who don't have enough? Why don't you take half of the clothes out of their closet with you when you go? For EVERY activity you enroll your child in (soccer, karate, dance) sign up a poor kid who can't afford it. For EVERY activity you take your child to - (movie, restaurant, amusement park, pool) make sure you pay for another kid who can't afford to go. If you have more than one, you have to do the same for each and every one.

Still sound "fair"?

[Critters2]

26. Yeah, it still sounds fair nt

[mzteris]

28. so you'll be doing all I suggested, then, eh?

I'll hold my breath.

[Critters2]

29. For all you know, I'm doing it now

I consider generosity a virtue, and concern for the poor a social obligation.

[mzteris]

So ARE you?

Do you? I think not. I'm wondering if you have kids?

There are social obligations and then there are familial obligations - in my book, my kids do come first. When you have kids, you'll understand what I mean.

[Critters2]

32. I believe firmly that my community's kids are my obligation

Sorry if you don't get this, but those I know by name are not the center of the universe. Continuing to force the poor to do with less ultimately hurts the whole community. Taking money from the public schools so the rich can homeschool hurts everyone in the long-run.

[mzteris]

34. So you DON"T have kids. . .

just as I thought.

When you do, you'll "get it".

I'm not forcing the poor to "do with less". I deliberately moved into a neighborhood and sent my child to a school for the diversity it offered.

You think only the RICH, homeschool?

ROFLMAO.

That's a good one. I can't wait to share that one with my hs'ing friends. Most of us have significantly altered our "lifestyle" so we CAN homeschool. We believe in doing what is best for our children. Even if it means going without the latest in fashion, having a new car, or living in a big house.

I know single moms, stay at home dads, working parents - people who do whatever they have to do because they have NO OTHER CHOICE for their child - but to homeschool. I'm sorry you can't understand that the public classroom is not necessarily the best place for every child to learn.

There are challenged kids and gifted kids and challenged/gifted kids - who CAN NOT!!! get what they need - and deserve - in a public classroom. Do you seriously believe they should be allowed to languish in the "system"?

edit spelling

[Critters2]

36. Interesting how defensive you are about this

I believe what I believe. It is a matter of social philosophy with me, and it matters that my children are a part of the community--and that their education not come at the expense of others. I'm a social democrat, I believe in the value of community. What my child does at the expense of the community harms the community--including my child.

I'm committed to a social contract view of community, and your snide rudeness won't dissuade me.

Do what you want with your kid. But take responsibility for the effect your choices have on others.

[Blue_In_AK]

38. For what it's worth

I agree with you.

[readmoreoften]

42. how does taking a learning disabled kid out of public school harm...

a community? The person didn't stop paying school taxes. If a parent has a GLBT child who is getting urinated on every day, are they supposed to keep the kid in school "to make a stand" or is it reasonable to say that maybe they should take the child out of that institution until anti-discrimination laws are passed and enforced.

Strong public schools are a top progressive goal, but keeping your special needs kid in an institution that's failing them doesn't do anyone any good.

[Critters2]

44. Again, see post number 9

Schools receive money based on attendance. Poorly funded schools perform poorly--in all areas. The way to improve schools is NOT to pull kids out.

[The Straight Story]

54. I don't see money as the main issue here

Many HS'ers I know don't have a lot of money at all, and even share supplies at times. If they are getting by on a shoe string budget why aren't schools doing better with the money they get?

Choice is part of being a democrat to me. From abortion to homeschooling people have choices to make in their own lives. Sending my daughter to a public school just so that they can get more money, and then blow it on admins while laying off teachers, does not seem like the best way to help my daughter. Her sacrifice won't change a thing and only empower schools to keep doing poorly here.

Now they are getting a wake up call as more and more people leave, the cash cow is drying up and they have the oppurtunity to fix things, yet they still pull stupid shit like they did here this year: build a 100k playground for a school. Not too bad I suppose. But the following year (this year) they closed the school down.

The antics of our school board are the stuff of local legend (and god rest bill moss's soul, he was a wild character...). I used to watch the school board meetings on tv just for the antics. Seriously.

The system here has failed, and I won't see my daughter crushed by it. When they fix the problem then I might consider it - but it has been a joke here for more years than I can recall.

I am not the problem. Money can be A problem, but is it not THE problem. The school board and yes the parents whose kids pull a lot of the crap here are to blame.

Teachers are usually a pretty damned good lot, with some exceptions (like the hs teacher that burned my books, and a few others I remember that were a little bizzare in ways).

It's a matter of trust - which they had and lost and don't seem to making any effort to restore.

My 3 boys though did go to a public school, and a pretty decent one at that in a whole different county.

[proud2BlibKansan]

92. Public schools have many expenses home schoolers and other schools

do not have. Like transportation. It is ignorant to compare per pupil expenditures of home schoolers and private schools to public schools.

[MysteryToMyself]

143. For a school to do what your local school did

was a setup. They wanted the school to fail, so they could privatize it.

We all need to watch who is getting on our school boards. We could get some radical right who want to privatize or worse.

[Critters2]

171. Homeschooling aids in the movement toward privatization of education nt

[dsc]

55. You are being more than a little dense here

First, many learning disabled students actually cost more to educate than the state funding amount. Thus the district might actually be financially better off. But more on point, if a school isn't serving your child well and you can't get them to do so, then you have every right to pull them out. I had a very crappy middle school experience. I wasn't pissed on every day but I had a lot of mean shit done to me due to being gay. I survived due to being very interested in leaving that town. I was determined to go to college. If a school can't or won't serve all children it shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't have all children attending it. I say this as a public school teacher.

[Critters2]

58. The fact is that most homeschooling parents aren't doing so

because their kids are being pissed on for being gay. They're doing it because li'l Johnny is just too gosh darn smart to be around all those normal kids all day. Or because they don't want their kids minds sullied by people who think differently--this is true on the right and the left.

I'm sorry your experience sucked. But it doesn't justify abandoning the public schools to the kids who will be most difficult and most costly to teach.

[dsc]

62. I am hardly advocating that

but in point of fact the main person you were responding to stated he or she was homeschooling due to the school's unwillingness or inability to deal with the child's learning disability. Not due to the child being too smart to be around normal kids. I believe that in most cases public schools are a better idea than homeschooling but even as a public school teacher I concede that there are some rare instances where public schools aren't the best option. Given what the poster you were berating wrote I believe it is likely his or her situation is one of those rare instances.

[Critters2]

67. The poster I'm "berating" is, in fact, one of those

who believe their kids to be too smart to be around normal kids. She's said so in more than one post...

"You have to suck it up and get dumbed down with the rest of 'em. Your ag/ld designation just isn't recognized and isn't accommodated. You just aren't entitled to soar to the heights you can attain."

Little Johnny is a genius who can't be expected to be in those awful public schools with the majority of the population. :eyes:

[dsc]

75. ld is learning disabled

I am unsure what ag is. Even if it is gifted, which it might be, the ld part appears to be his or her biggest problem. I took her dumbed down comment to be a reference to what that district is doing to special ed not regular students.

[mzteris]

138. The LD part WAS

the biggest problem. (see my other posts for rants. :) )

Actually the "dumbed down" comment - was in reference to NCLB - because that's what that program WILL do to all kids if it continues... hopefully we'll get rid of the neocons and get rid of it and schools can go back to actually teaching kids something useful besides how to "take the test".

[Critters2]

162. You don't fight NCLB by pulling your genius out of the public schools

[mzteris]

137. Oh puhleeze.......

He's not a genuis - I never said that -

He IS bright, though. He was designated as such by the school in 1st grade. Unusual, yes?

Then when they finally recognized that he had dysgraphia - they wanted to TAKE AWAY his AG designation and all of his AG accommodations. Like he suddenly wasn't smart anymore???

They had absolutely no comprehension that you accommodate an ag/ld student differently from either one of those.

I tried very hard to work with the school. Then his teacher stopped talking to him. Yes. His advanced teacher REFUSED TO SPEAK TO HIM - under orders from the principal. You have NO idea what we went through there.

You have no idea of how hard it was. My son started crying when it was time to go to school. He started with the stomach aches. He started having headaches. He started having anxiety attacks - because he was being treated like a pariah in his advanced class because the principal wanted to "prove" he didn't belong there 'anymore'.

The AG teacher, the school psych, his other/previous teachers - knew it was a totally ridiculous power play by the psychotic principal.

We tried to get transferred to another school. We went to the school board. She sat there and LIED to the school board about what was going on in the school. The SB - said "it's her school - she decides whats best for your child." (This from a fundamentlist sb member, btw...)

It was total bs. We were only going to pull him for the rest of the year (it was Christmas) until we could find another school option (not private - we couldn't/can't afford it!) - but it worked so well for him, that we continued.

I didn't abandon PS - PUBLIC SCHOOL ABANDONED MY CHILD.

Get it now?

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. 99% of the kids I know who have been pulled out of public schools

to be home schooled had parents who got mad (usually about one thing) and they pull their kids out. It is a reactionary decision made in anger. Often, the child has been suspended or punished and the parent doesn't agree. So in my experience, l'il Johnny is just too gosh darn well-behaved to get in trouble at school.

[Critters2]

149. Yeah, I've seen that, too

That's the reason one of my parish families homeschools. Yet, we've lost two Sunday School teachers because of "Li'l Johnny"'s behavior. I wish they'd home-Sunday School, but I'm gonna have to deal with the little monster come Confirmation time, either way.

[Zhade]

102. "They're doing it because li'l Johnny is just too gosh darn smart..."

Heh - you noticed that self-aggrandizement of people living through their little "geniuses" too, eh?

Some people really need to be ready to accept the possibility that their little one won't be the next Mozart or Einstein. Oh, the kids'll be smart - like most kids of liberals - but those lost in "my brilliant little one is SO smart and SO talented"-land are going to receive a sudden shock when reality sets in.

(The whole TAG nonsense pisses me off, because I've seen the focus on being such destroy lives, up close.)

[Spangle]

60. So your saying... That the SCHOOL is more important

And here I thought it was about the children. Me BAD.

yes, yes, I know how schools are funded. Are YOU aware how kids are educated? Some kids get a decent educations, some don't. So If my child's school sucks, to bad.. he should attend nayway. So that school don't loose their funding. I get it.

But I'm no longer buying it. Let me tell you why.

If the medical profesion was ran like they school system. We ALL would refuse to go to a doctor.

Schools are still in the theory of education stage. Constantly trying to find a theory that actualy works. And those theorys are taught to prospective teachers in college. When the theory if found to be defunked, does anyone go back to all those NOW teachers and tell them it was all bogus? Nope.

They just teach the next group something else. Would you like a doctor trained like that? Or want one that was all ways testing this theory or that theory out on you. Doubt it.

Educaiton is a prodcut that we are buying with our tax dollars. WE are not getting what we are paying for. We ALL know this is a problem. But every attempt we have made to correct it, the more it screws things up.

Teachers that can't teach. Lessons not being taught. Students not learning. Same story, over and over again. State and national testing came in to play to find those kids who are behind to HELP them. ANd if a teacher is constantly having students not coming up to par.. then what? Lord forbid they get the blame. If it was any other profession, such a person would be required to attend addtional school or tested to see what is the problem. But not that field. Same with school administration, etc. It's not just the teaches. They just get the blame unfairly.

Since the FCAT started in Florida, instead of encourging schools to do better, they have found ways to push the familys of students to carry the 'burden' of wither the child fails in school. If the school is failing to teach, parents are required to do so. Some how it now looks bad on the child and family. Not the school or teacher if that child fails.

If we were talking about a child's health... It would be the doctor and hospitals.

Sorry. If I had the guts, I would pull my kids out in a heart beat. More and more parents are making that choice because they KNOW that educaiton is the most important thing for a child to have.

If that child doesn't attend that school, that school hasn't lost anything. Not one dime. That money goes back into the state budget. The tax money goes else where. Also, that school doesn't have to pay for that childs education. However, the parents do. All the books, etc.

I'm tired of of hearing that EACH child is worth $$. That is BS. The school funding comes from several different sources. Based upon the type of children that school is educating. Special needs kids cost more to educate. No way they are spending the same amount on a special needs child then they are a regular child. If they are, something is wrong. But when you look at the 'lump' numbers, that is exactly the way it's reported. It's done that way so no one really knows where the money is going.

Children comes fist. Not the schools.

[Critters2]

63. That is the poorest example of writing I've read on DU

Poor grammar, poor spelling, poor style. Me, I can write well. I do public-speaking for a living, after 16 years of public education.

[Spangle]

73. Your point being?

Only someone with 16 years of educattion should speak up on anything? Get over your self.

At one point it was said that only 'certian' educated people should vote.

By the way, wanta take a guess at how many years of public education I have had? LOL!

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. zero?

Spell check is an amazingly helpful device.

[Critters2]

148. My point was that, if this is what private education produces,

I'm not impressed. And if this is the kind of education homeschoolers provide for their children, I'm scared for their children.

If I were to limit people's access to the franchise, I would only let poor people vote. But all the homeschoolers would scream bloody murder.

[pnwmom]

183. Your point was to insult the poster. You know very well that the

odds are overwhelming that he or she was the product of a public education, because the vast majority of Americans are.

[Critters2]

197. Whereas you're arguing that this person should be teaching

his/her children grammar and spelling--and could do a better job than the public school teachers you've been insulting throughout this thread.

[pnwmom]

202. No, I'm not, and neither is the poster. The poster never said

s/he could do a better job personally. S/he just wished there were more options.


And I think there are many fine teachers in the public schools. But the public schools aren't set up to work for everybody, at least in my district.

[Critters2]

203. Well, at least one PS teacher seemed to feel insulted

and rightly so.

[pnwmom]

204. That is that teacher's problem.

But I actually have more of a problem with my district's administration, my state's SPI, and NCLB than I do with the dozens of teachers my children have had (with one unfortunate exception). But those good teachers are stuck in the system. I'm not.

By the way, in my district many of the best teachers are taking early retirement. Some of them go on to teach in private schools! It's not a good place for anybody.

[pnwmom]

181. "Me, I can write well."

How nice for you.

[Critters2]

198. It's all thanks to a public education! nt

[dsc]

64. teachers get continuing education all the time

and yes part of that is telling us what new theories are happening in education and what is wrong with the old theories.

[countingbluecars]

76. Wow, quite a public school

bashing thread. I'd like to address this statement for starters.

"Teachers that can't teach. Lessons not being taught. Students not learning. Same story, over and over again. State and national testing came in to play to find those kids who are behind to HELP them. ANd if a teacher is constantly having students not coming up to par.. then what? Lord forbid they get the blame. If it was any other profession, such a person would be required to attend addtional school or tested to see what is the problem. But not that field. Same with school administration, etc. It's not just the teaches. They just get the blame unfairly."

I have been teaching for over twenty years. I have advanced degrees in education. Yet I am constantly required to take courses to keep my teaching certification current. I attended summer workshops and worked on curriculum committees. I spent the last two weeks in workshops to prepare for the new school year and to improve and enrich my teaching skills. Oh, and yes, I had a student who did not pass the state mandated tests last year. She worked her little heart out in class and after school with me. Her family is migrant, and she will be in a different school in a different state this year. I took responsibility for her learning while she was my student. She went from a non-reader to reading at the second grade level. Since she was in fourth grade, she was required to take fourth grade level tests! The tests don't help these kids, the teachers do.

[Spangle]

78. Not ment to be

Just makes me mad when the "funding" is considered an issue for why students shouldn't be pulled out and homeschooled. WE still have some backwater school districts in America. Sadly. I know If my child was attending one of those schools that don't believe in teaching real science, I would be pulling them out in a heart beat. That is just beyond... Also, in some schools emotionaly handicap, mentaly handicap, learning disabled (various forms), and ADHD children are grouped together. If you have one of those children and the school is teaching towards one of the other types, then your child will not be geting the type of education he/she needs. But the school might not be able to afford to have that many different class rooms/speciality teachers on hand. Might be more cost effective if the child is taught elsewhere.

Those test should only be used to see which child needs what help. And to see if that child is getting help. Or if the help that child is getting, is working. The test should be a help mate to the teacher and to the schools. But 'teaching to the test' is worthless. Puts to much attention on the test. Which should just be 'a test'. To much stress on everyone.

Congrads on having most your class pass the tests. Wonderful work with the little girl. She will remember what you did for her. And so will you.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

94. You have a very poor understanding of school finances

along with several other things I will refrain from pointing out.

Yes the school does lose massive amounts of state aid for EVERY child who is pulled out or who never enrolls in the public school in the first place. Yes each child represents $$. That might seem crass but it is the way the system works. Staying in and working for change is better for your child as well as all the others.

To quote you, yes children do come fiRst. And educating them costs more and more money every year.

[Zhade]

104. "Education is a product [sic]" - that's where your argument falls apart.

Education isn't a product, it's an integral part of the social compact of a successful society. The better-educated the populace, the freer and healthier it is.

[Solo_in_MD]

107. However, levels of success can be measured and should be

and if there are metrics, at a macro level, looking at it as a product is fair

[Zhade]

178. I don't disagree with that.

NT!

[mzteris]

45. I get defensive because hs'ers are continuously attacked

on DU.

Simple question:

If my son were blind or deaf, would I be guilty of "cheating the general populace" because I sent him to a special school?

My kids ARE part of the COMMUNITY. Whyever would you think that they were not?

My snide rudeness? You're the one accusing me of "cheating poor children".


edited for spelling and clarity.

[Critters2]

48. There are publicly funded educational opportunities for

disabled children. I had a blind child in my congregation in Iowa who went to public schools, did well on tests and was a great, bright kid all around. And he didn't cause the school to lose funding by being in a private school.

Again, for clarity...schools are funded according to attendance. Each child not there costs the public school money. Poor kids are dependent on public education, as both parents (if there are two) work, etc. By removing your kid from the funding formula, you take resources from poor kids with no options but public schools.

But you've already declared quite clearly that poor kids are NOT your concern.

[mzteris]

50. How many have you fostered/adopted?

I was a fostermom and am now an adoptive mom and I completely and totally resent your statement.

One more time: I have a child in PS; I graduated on from PS. The one in a ps school I deliberately chose FOR it's DIVERSITY.

I don't give a damn about the whole tax thing - some kids do not, can not, shoud not be in public school.

Some of them - you wouldn't WANT in your kids classes. You'd probably be the first in line screaming about how little Johnny is being SOOOOOOOOOO disruptive and why doesn't the admin DO something about him. I'm on the boards with parents every single day talking about their children's issues both at home and in the classroom.

While my son wasn't a behaviour issue - he was NOT getting his educational needs met. Should I have just let him vegetate? You tell me. Should I have sacrificed my child's future because the school system sucked so much they weren't capable of giving him the education he deserved?

[Critters2]

51. No, you should pull your little angels out, and let only poor kids

vegetate in the public schools, obviously. You have no obligation to anyone but yourself.

[mzteris]

52. Are you being argumentative and rude for a reason

or just to mess with me?

Do you know how to read?

I pulled ONE child out of ps. ONE - the other is IN PS. The other graduated from PS.

ONE child - ONE - needed an education the ps could not give. I am not, will not, shall not - let him vegetate.

You want yours dumbed down. Be my guest.

[Critters2]

53. What about kids without your resources?

Oh, right...not your problem.

[Spangle]

74. You still haven't explained

Why they should punish their child? Why their child should fall through the cracks. Just so the school can get a check for the child and NOT educate the child.

Before you attack because of the choices made. YOU need to come up with a realistic and workable solution. You havne't done that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

97. Kids don't fall through the cracks when parents insist that their needs be

met. I see it happen all the time. I am a special ed teacher and I can assure you that the kids whose parents fight for the education their child deserves and work WITH the school to assure that education is provided are probably the most well educated kids in the system.

[readmoreoften]

99. Way to tell the reader that they just haven't "fought hard enough"

Not all public schools are the same. My parents took me out of a school with massive drug dealing, violence, and bi-weekly bomb scares that left us out on the bleachers for half the day. (This was twenty years ago.) What the hell were my parents supposed to do? The reality is-- some public schools are better than others, usually based on the wealth of the community to begin with.

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. Well I would have gone to the police

if my child's school was infested with that level of crime and violence. Or I would have moved to a safer school.

I teach in a school that serves a very low income area and it is excellent. We just got our test scores back and once again, we made AYP, as we have every year since NCLB became law. We have been honored for being one of the best elementary schools in the state. We have also won awards from the federal dept of education. So no, the wealth of the community does not determine the excellence of the local schools.

[readmoreoften]

109. My parents ALREADY moved to get me out of an unsafe school district.

Being working class, they couldn't afford to sell the house and move to a wealthier area so that I could finish high school. The more REALISTIC option was to put me in a private school for the last three years of high school. Not all poor and working class areas have schools as good as your own. Especially when you get to middle and high schools where the despair of poorer communities can't be counteracted by lackluster school system.

The focus, in my opinion, should not be berating parents who take their kids out of these schools because they are in danger of ruining their futures. The focus should be on funding education properly so people won't need to take their kids out of school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. And they didn't think to call the cops?

I know I would have.

[readmoreoften]

115. The school itself called the cops. Who do you think cleared us

out of the buildings to sit in the bleachers all afternoon. It was only kids calling in the bomb threats to get out of class, but of course they had to take the threats seriously. After I left, one student did put a bomb in a locker setting a few others on fire.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Bomb threats are federal offenses

I guess I would have called the FBI.

[readmoreoften]

123. Twenty years ago laws weren't enforced with such gusto.

This is at least 10 years before Columbine. The worst that teachers feared were knife fights. (In my first few days of middle school, a fellow classmate was stabbed to death by another girl over a pop music album.) They didn't call the FBI over juvenile delinquents back then. At the same time, they couldn't risk the bad publicity of a student or two being injured by a locker bomb. Even with bomb threats, in 1985, anyone who thought that kids would *actually* blow up a significant portion of a school would be considered an alarmist nutjob who needed a few days off. Putting a bomb in a locker or setting a locker on fire was within the realm of possibility but coordinating an grand attack worthy of the FBI was unthinkable. This was back in the day of "boys will be boys" and "school yard pranks." We were even allowed to smoke in highschool during lunch.

In the same vein, a teacher at the same high school was reprimanded for a statutory rape conviction with a former student (a 15 yo girl). Not fired, not registered-as-a-sex-offender-- just given a few weeks off without pay and told to never do it again. At my new, private high school one obese classmate was referred to as "Fat Phil" by everyone in school-- including the faculty. ("Fat Phil" later murdered someone before he commit suicide.) And that was at the private school. This is, of course, before so-called "political correctness" was involved. Thank god for political correctness.

Things change a lot in 20 years.

[Zhade]

106. Your argument basically boils down to the following:

"My little genius got his, fuck the other kids."

[mzteris]

140. actually no, it doesn't

but if you want to think that, go right ahead.

[Critters2]

151. Sure it is

You've been quite clear about this...you're not responsible for other kids in your community. The poor can do without. How is this NOT what you've been saying?

[mzteris]

175. Obviously your ability to read and interpret

is significantly impaired.

[Zhade]

180. What's even stranger is that you refer to PS as "dumbing down" kids...

...yet you have one child in PS, and one out of PS.

Why do you want to "dumb down" the one you have in PS (as that IS the view you expressed about kids in PS)?

[mzteris]

196. you don't think NCLB is

doing its best to dumb down education in this country???

FWIW - I was angry when I wrote that response and didn't express myself appropriately.

I don't think PS in general is bad. Some schools totally suck. Some school systems totally suck. Some teachers - aren't.

Just like some parents are terrible parents. Not everyone should or can homeschool.

Not every kid should be homeschooled. Not every kid should be public schooled.

It's what works for the individual child.

Why do people not want to give me a choice of what is BEST for MY KID?

I really and truly don't understand the animosity towards hs'ers.

Question: do you know who AVA is?

[Critters2]

199. I've been quite clear about my objections to homeschooling

Have you not been reading this thread?

[Critters2]

150. Exactly

How progressive is that?

[Spangle]

72. actualy, this isn't the way it works.

People have been trying to 'fix' the school system. It refuses to be fixed. It's rather wrong that it's allowed to control US because we do need the school system. The biggest fear, is that we wouldn't need them. Until it became an option for parents to homeschool, no one had a choice. Parents had to accept.

They no longer have to. Parents who can't afford private education (which isn't any better in some places) might be able to homeschool.

Until the school system takes this seriously, we really can't take them serously. They need a total over haul. Starting with the way teachers are trained and certified. To the way schools are ran. The way theorys should be totaly investigated and approved before EVER getting in the classrooms.

By saying that ALL kids should attend a defunk school, is saying that we have no control. That is what got us into this problem in the first place. We have a system in place that is totaly out of control. WE have adminstrators,etc that is only concerned with keeping their jobs. Failling year after year, and don't get demoted, etc. No other job market does an employee or 'business' continue to run when it fails year after year.

It's all the schools. THEY need to way up. From the top down to the bottem.

[Spangle]

83. A child not there, costs the school money?

How is that?

Here we have to many chlidren attending. The more that attends, the more portables are needed. More teachers that are needed to be hired. Shortage of books, etc.

If a child isn't there, there isn't a cost associated with the child. The school doesn't loose.

I think you might be confused because of the hidden cost of educating special needs children. When the issue was rised that WE as society had the responsiblity to ALL the children, including the mentaly handicapped, there was some issues over the cost of such an issue. To make it more digestable to those who balk over such things, the cost has been kinda obscured. When we hear that we are spending $5,000 per child, that really isn't the truth. WE are actualy spending more on some children. Because of their special needs. Now days, that includes many different specialitys.

As far as costs goes, it's totaly understandable. Speciality teachers cost more. Plus, they have smaller class sizes. In a small school, there might be just one special needs teacher and one special needs student. Does anyone seriously think that childs $5,000 covers the cost of THAT teachers salary for a year? But, that teachers whole salary IS the cost of educating that one child. See why some might balk?

Schools get different types of funding. They get funding for the various types of student needs that school has. Those funds are pulled together in a general fund. That money is divided amoungest the number of students that school has attending. And that is where they get the per child cost.

Now then. When talking about charter schools, private schools, etc. And recieveing funds from tax payers, which amount should be allowed to go with the child to their new school? The real amount spent on educating that child? Or the one that includes the 'hidden' costs? AFter telling the general public that the local school spends $5,000 per child, parents THINK they have that money that they should be allowed to pay for private, etc. Such schools don't offer alot of the 'special' education for the special needs children.

Now we have a catch 22 in play. Schools can't come clean with how they explain the 'per child' spending. Because there are some people out there that have problems with the cost of special needs students. And in places that are considering allowing the educational funding to follow the child, can not realisticly pass that 'per child' funding with the child to the next school. Because all those funds were not ment for THAT child who isn't special needs. And NOT to a school that wouldn't offer special needs services anyway. If they did, then the school would realisticly be loosing money if that child leaves and the money follows the child. But the government knows and understands the problem. THAT isn't going to happen.

[pnwmom]

116. You're wrong on the financial aspects.

The reason schools are funded according to attendance is that when there are fewer students, fewer teachers are needed, and -- since teacher salaries alone are the biggest budget item -- costs go down.

When students withdraw at odd times of the year, there may be a DELAY before schools can reduce costs accordingly. But they can, and will, in the next budget period, when they are free to hire fewer teachers and even close facilities if they need to. In the meantime, the majority of families that pull students out are still paying school taxes every year, for which no services are provided.

If you don't believe me, just look at several years worth of budgets from any district that has fluctuating enrollments. When the enrollment is predicted to be lower, the budget is lower. Our district is adjusting its budget -- and hiring and laying off teachers -- as late as September every year.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. No the homeschoolers continually come on these threads about

public schools and tell one bad 'school failed my child' story after another. I for one am over it. I rarely post in the education forum anymore because of the constant public school trashing posts.

And to answer your question, your kids are not part of the school community if they are not enrolled in school. Seems pretty obvious. :eyes:

[mzteris]

132. Community has more than one meaning.

I was speaking of the community at large - NOT just the building in which children are housed.

My hs'ed son has plenty of PS friends.

And AGAIN, P2B - I HAVE A CHILD IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, too.


And if you NOTE - this THREAD turned into HOMESCHOOL BASHING. And about how all hs'ers are a bunch of rightwing nut jobs and how "we're" cheating the ps'ers.

I don't go into PS threads to bash ps - I go into threads to disabuse people of the notion that hs'ers are only fundies. We have PLENTY of hs'ers on DU. Liberals. Activists. Religious. Non-religious. All colors. shapes. sizes. and philosophies.

[joe_sixpack]

194. No need to feel defensive.

No matter how much you get bullied here. You are doing what you think is best for your child. Taking you child out of a public school is not going to cause the whole system to collapse.

[pnwmom]

112. How does one student getting a non-public education come at the

expense of those that do?

I'm not clear on what you're saying.

[Momgonepostal]

79. I wouldn't say "rich" but most homeschoolers I have known

or known of has one parent whose job is good enough that it allows the other parent to stay home with the kids. The only exception I can think of is a single mom who lived with her parents, so the grandparents helped with the schooling. I do believe that a lower household income is not conducive to homeschooling.

[TransitJohn]

145. Okay as a parent

I call bullshit on the "when you have kids you'll understand." Totally not germane to the points being made. And, just because I've procreated, how does that make me more of an expert?

[Critters2]

152. Singles without kids get this crap all the time

I sometimes think that if these Earth Mothers had their way, they'd keep us from voting...because we don't know about "real life".

[TransitJohn]

153. I know, and it totally sucks

I have several friends who are childfree by choice, so I know that mentality is wrong on so many levels.

[Critters2]

156. And there are those who are unable, physically, to have children

Still, in the eyse of the earth mothers, not full citizens--or even adults.

[proud2BlibKansan]

91. Glad to see you get it

[Critters2]

155. Oh, I do

I feel VERY strongly about this. It pisses off the homeschoolers in my congregation. But they're so effin' touchy. They get pissed off if I say, in a children's sermon, "So, what did you do at scholl this week?" or if I ask a kid what grade she's in. Invariably, I get a lecture afterwards about how all kids aren't in school, or "my little sweetie doesn't identify with a grade". Okay, I sometimes do it to piss'em off.

My faith tradition has always supported public education, and I'm not going to deny that tradition because I've been called to a church full of rich, spoiled "progressives" who are really libertarians in disguise. Until I came here, I always served congregations with lots of public school teachers, and I respect the work they (you) do. I won't diss 'em, or stand by quietly while others do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

173. What makes me sad

is knowing how much public education could use the passion of those who reject it.

[countingbluecars]

35. My school does

the things you suggest. The teachers and parents provide food,clothing, and books for needy families in our school community. We sign kids up for after school activities and provide transportation to these activities. The school community works together to benefit all the children in the school.

I don't think we are unique in this. There are many good people out in the real world.

[MysteryToMyself]

56. That isn't the way it works

No one is asking anyone to take anything away from their own children. You can give your child a full plate and still give enough for other children to have full plates, unless you are poor, yourself.

Go to this link to see where the tax money really is going and see if you think we are spending too much on our schools.

http://www.truemajority.org/...

The truth is unless the private school you are sending your child to is charging $20,000 a year, then you probably aren't getting as much as you think you are from the private school. By the time the owner takes his profits, then there isn't much left to spend on the child's learning equipment or hire the best teachers.

I don't understand what the initials,ag/ld, you used to describe your child mean. advanced genius /learning disabilities?

Most schools have classes to teach the advanced and those with learning disabilities, but, if you are getting more from the private school for your child, then that is the way to go.

I have an advanced learner in the family. He is in some classes that are advanced and others that are regular. To me, the main thing is to get the basics down pat, then after that those who are advanced can soar and those who are not will have a good solid foundation from which to build.

I went to a poor school that had the 1st and 2nd combined and third and forth grades combined. I learned a great deal in school, but had to learn more on every thing that I went to do, when I dealt with real life, but I had the basics to make it fairly easy.

Once they weaken and destroy the public schools, then the cost of private schools will go up to $20,000, more than likely.

[mzteris]

129. you missed my point

- - the other poster was saying one had to "sacrifice" their own child for the sake of the "other kids" - I was trying to illustrate what that meant in terms other than education. (I tend to use analogies a LOT - and extremes of analogies in order to make a point...)

I think schools are UNDER funded - and there is too much waste spent in administration. I think teachers are grossly underpaid and under appreciated. I think eliminating things like art, music, and recess is a COLOSSAL mistake.

I don't resent paying taxes for the schools. I do resent the implication that I'm "cheating other kids" because I pulled my one son from ps in order to hs him because that was in his best interest. I do have another child IN PS and graduated one from PS, btw.

ag/ld means Academically Gifted/Learning disabled. The school district identified my son in first grade as AG - when two years later they found he had an LD - they wanted to STRIP him of his AG designation - and no longer offer him the gifted options - and put him in an LD program. What? He suddenly stopped being smart because they finally recognized that he had dysgraphia???

There are other issues, etc... suffice it to say - my son's needs were best met at home. Could another school work? Probably. But he loves the freedom hs'ing offers him to pursue his interests his way. Works for him. Works for us. Why is it anyone else's business what we choose??

Public schools are in far more danger from the bush admin and the fundamentalists who are systematically taking over school boards than they are from me. If the fundies take over the school systems, everyone on this board would be clamoring to private or hs.

[MysteryToMyself]

172. I already posted in another post

before I read this, but my grandson tested out genius one year and advanced one year, then the next year he was put in the remedial math, which is what he had tested the highest on. So, I know they do make mistakes.

I did notice 2 years later, when he came to live with us, that even though he could get math easily, he understood concepts I didn't understand, he didn't have his basic multiplication and division down pat. I taught him to memorize them. In fact I bribed him by paying him for learning them. But I think he learned them the year of the bad teacher.

Yes, you need to do what is best for your child. There is no one else going to do it. It could be that one year, that one teacher was not the norm. But I wouldn't want to chance it, if I were you.

[mzteris]

174. You r grandson may have had

dyscalculia. Math "facts" are difficult to retrieve - but concepts are easily understood. Or he just had a bad year when he first was introduced to them.

[Taoschick]

59. You are correct

I have an obligation to my child first.

Don't ever apologize for taking that position. It is unreasonable to expect you to deny your child the best you can offer him just because someone else doesn't think it's "fair". Not all children are the same and not all children can be forced into a specific setting with the same results.

My parents made huge sacrifices to put me in a private school because they knew it was better for me. Their choice didn't take anything away from anyone else.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. You work to change the system

instead of abandoning it. My kids had trouble fitting in too. But instead of pulling them out of school, I became an active parent. I fought at the school level, at the administration level and finally at the school board level to get the programs put in place that my kids needed. I started a parents group with other parents whose kids' needs were also not being met. I didn't miss a school board meeting for years. I was even asked to run for school board. And that district today has the programs in place that we demanded. That school district still calls me to give workshops and help with teacher training and my kid graduated from high school 10 years ago and we don't even live in that district anymore.

It is similar to what is happening in this country today. Instead of sitting at home and wringing my hands complaining about the corrupt politicians representing me, I am being pro-active and working to elect candidates who will be the change we need.

Working within a system to change it is much more productive than abandoning it and criticizing what it didn't do for your child. Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this. Paying taxes and voting for school bonds and levies just isn't enough. Public education is under attack in this country and will fail if we don't all work to fix it. I am heartsick when I meet parents who have abandoned their public schools and discover how passionate and wise they are. We need that passion on our school boards and in our schools. The future of our public schools is at stake here. When they fail, our communities fail.

[countingbluecars]

90. Excellent post.

You say it and live it so well, proud2Blib.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Thanks CBC

These are scary times. We absolutely must communicate that a strong public school system is the lifeblood of a community.

[pnwmom]

111. I'm with you, and I don't understand the argument they're making here.

My youngest no longer attends public school. But I still support the district. I help out with phone calling on the levy, pay my taxes, etc. But I couldn't get the district to listen to my concerns about my son's education, and I had other options, so I took one.

The reason I took my kid out was that my district USED to promote an individualized education, and now takes the cookie-cutter approach. (Which a surprising number of people around here seem to be advocating.) The pendulum will swing the other way some day, but that will be too late to help my son, who doesn't fit any of their molds.

The financial argument some people are making here is bogus. Obviously, as enrollment goes down, fewer teachers are needed, whole buildings can be closed, if necessary, and costs go down -- not in the same proportion as enrollment (because some costs are constant), but overall they do go down. In the meantime, the tax money keeps rolling in. There may be a temporary imbalance if the state lowers reimbursements before the district has a chance to lower its costs, but in the long run the costs are lower for the district, too.

The real issue here then isn't costs, it's jobs. Teachers and administrators have a stake in maintaining all the jobs that they can, and I'm in sympathy with that. I think our class sizes are much too big. But I think it's bogus to blame public education's financial problems on people who opt their children out of their public schools.

[mzteris]

131. thanks

***The pendulum will swing the other way some day, but that will be too late to help my son, who doesn't fit any of their molds.***

EXACTLY!!

One can work "within the system" for DECADES before the slightest change is effected. By then it would have been way too late.

It was apparent immediately that the district we were in had absolutely NO concern for MY child. We went to the school board and could have gone to court - but by then my son was having complete meltdowns because his TEACHER REFUSED TO TALK TO HIM!!!!!! Because the Principal - who was a complete control freak - told her not to (or she'd punish her with "bad duty", not allowing her time off, giving her all the 'bad kids', etc...... This is not an exaggeration. After we left the school - one of my son's old teachers - told us that the Principal would make teachers' lives a living hell if they didn't toe the line. That school had the highest teacher turn over rate in the county. The only school they would let us transfer to was another 1/2 hour away - and I was already driving a 1/2 -45 minutes to school. What was I to do?


**The financial argument some people are making here is bogus. Obviously, as enrollment goes down,**

Hs'ers are what - like 2% of the population? I don't think ps's are in danger from our leaving.

Besides, many hs'ers required additional $$ and attention - for spec ed, 504's, IEP's, special classes, programs, etc....... - that personally I think it frees up $$ for the GP.

[pnwmom]

160. I wonder how many of the idealists here would actually be willing

to sacrifice their children to the cause -- if public education were failing them.

[BrotherBuzz]

19. And despite the lose of money the public schools still have to....

have contingency plans to accept the same kids leaving the schools if they are forced to return for any reason, like economic downturn or if the Charter school fails for any reason.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Or when they get kicked out of those charter schools

and come back to public schools.

[BrotherBuzz]

88. Well, then there's that

;)

[Solo_in_MD]

27. That depends on the state

CA its a big deal, not nearly as important in MD.

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. It depends on how they do their student count.

Some states do one count a year (usually in September) and that is the number the state goes by all year. In other states, they take daily or weekly attendance figures and report those to the state.

[pnwmom]

57. Charter schools receive money from the state. Students at private schools

or home schooled students do not. So the situations are not comparable.

Fewer students in the schools means less money from the state, but it also means fewer students to serve. So it should be a wash.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. No it is not a wash

Kids leave, but the teachers and other employees still need to be paid, the utilities need to be paid, books and supplies need to be purchased, gas needs to be bought to run buses, etc etc

No it is not a wash.

[pnwmom]

110. Teachers aren't paid if they are laid off, which is what happens in

my state when enrollments are lower than expected.

Our district adjusts employment every year based on how many students are expected to be in school, and teachers salaries are more than 2/3 of the budget. So fewer students means fewer teachers, and less money to spend on books and supplies.

Also, the amount parents are paying in taxes remains exactly the same, so overall -- in the long run -- when students leave the system for private education, the remaining money available per pupil is actually somewhat higher than it would be if ALL students were taught in the public school only.

[proud2BlibKansan]

114. The buildings don't shrink

and the price of gas and textbooks doesn't go down. Fewer students also does not mean fewer textbooks or supplies.

This really isn't as simple as you want it to be.

[pnwmom]

124. Unnecessary buildings can be shut down, rented out, or sold.

If there are fewer students, fewer books and supplies will be ordered for the next budgeting period.

As I said, the proportion of savings isn't the same as the reduction in enrollment, but there is still a net savings overall, once the student is out of the system. There may be unreimbursed costs for students who leave in the middle of a budget period, but in the next budget the figures are adjusted downward to account for lower enrollment.

And after that, for every year the student is out of the system, parents are paying taxes for services they don't receive. (Which I have no problem with, by the way, since public education is a public obligation.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

163. Okay let's close your neighborhood school first

:)

[Critters2]

168. That'd be okay with pnwmom

She homeschools anyway, and like all the homeschoolers here, feels no concern for other children in her neighborhood, or anywhere else.

Lookin' out for Number One--like a good Democrat :eyes:

[pnwmom]

179. My neighborhood school in Seattle closed the year we moved there.

We were disappointed, but I'm not going to blame that on the kids who were homeschooled!

[Maestro]

61. In Texas, the ADA computes to only $79.00 per child.

It doesn't come close to what we need to educate our kids. The local communities make up the rest in property taxes. The Texas do-nothing government has changed the funding somewhat moving the collection of taxes to more sin taxes, cigarrettes and alcohol, but essentially the impact at my school would be minimal at best. Overall, it might have a bigger impact on the district as a whole. I'm so sick of the few fundies that are at my school that I say, go!

[dsc]

66. per what length of time?

Is that per day?

[Maestro]

82. The whole friggin' year

as far as I can tell.

[dsc]

126. that is mind boggling

Most states spend that in about 2 days.

[MysteryToMyself]

164. Texas doesn't have a state tax

does it? In AR we get 45% from state taxes, 45% from property taxes and 10% from federal taxes. Or that is the way it is at my grandson's school. We have 14 per class and we have excellent schools and lots of them.

There are worse things than paying taxes. One of them is having bad schools due to lack of money.

[Maestro]

176. Nope, no state tax

so the property owners shoulder all of the responsiblity for funding local schools. However the old system was declared unconstitutional because most districts had hit the tax limit that they could impose on communities so, in turn, the only way to raise funds was to inflate property values. This created a sort of state-wide property tax which is illegal. I wrote a whole thesis paper on this. The state funding is so convuluted it is nuts! A state wide income tax for education seems more appropriate but even there you have problems.

[MysteryToMyself]

165. Texas doesn't have a state tax

does it? In AR we get 45% from state taxes, 45% from property taxes and 10% from federal taxes. Or that is the way it is at my grandson's school. We have 14 per class and we have excellent schools and lots of them.

There are worse things than paying taxes. One of them is having bad schools due to lack of money.

[proud2BlibKansan]

89. My district has been devastated financially by charter schools

We have lost 20% of our kids and a huge amount of state revenue. And we watch these kids leave our system, go to a charter, get kicked out or fail, and return to us just in time to bring our test scores down. It is a friggin mess.

[pnwmom]

118. Charter schools are a totally different issue, because

they get funding from the state. The funding that would otherwise go to the local district goes to the charter school.

But private and home schooled kids get NO public funding. Their parents' tax money just goes into the pot with everyone else's, and no services go out in return.

[Critters2]

159. Services given to the poor don't benefit you?!

You're kidding right? Or have I wandered onto Free Republic?

[countingbluecars]

166. I find that most of the homeschooling threads

sound like they could be found on Free Republic.

[Critters2]

167. This one certainly does

When did a sense of community and social contract cease to be an important part of progressivism?

[pnwmom]

185. You know I already said, multiple times, that I fully support public

education. I know the value to the community. But when a person sends their child out of the system for education, then their tax dollars are not coming back to them in direct services -- unlike taxes paid by people whose kids are in the public schools.

Just like other people without children, we support school levies for the good of the community -- not just so our own children will benefit. (And, unlike some parents of public school kids, who stop voting for school levies as soon as their kids are out of the system.)

[MichiganVote]

184. You are wrong to assume that private or home schooled students

get no public funding. First of all many districts in the US have home schooling support and after school support for those students who attend private schools. Summer school programs including those that provide free or reduced lunch are available to these students. Moreover, private or home schooled students may derive benefits from sports programs, state / district testing, and special services re: Psychological assessment, Speech, OT, PT, Hearing, Vision or Social Work services.

The tax money that is paid to states that is paid to districts comes from many more senior citizens, single adults, and/or married w/o children citizens than private or homeschooled childrens' parents.

Having read through this thread it appears that what you want is money for the price of a private education. Sorry, I for one do not care to pay for the religious instruction that you or other parents choose for your children. Nor am I supportive of private education choices on the part of parents in supposed educational settings that have -0- accountability.

Why should parents be paid to exercise a choice about their kids education while my concerns as a voter/taxpayer are dismissed? If equality is the issue, why can't the tax payers who don't have children in any kind of school recieve an equal amount of compensation? Don't they deserve a tax break too?

edit/typo

[pnwmom]

186. That's totally not what I've been saying.

I'm not complaining that parents of non-public-schooled kids don't get enough money from the state. I'm not asking for any money for the state and I don't get any services. I've opposed both charter schools and tuition rebates for private/parochial schools.

All I'm saying is that when parents like me take their kids out of school -- for whatever reason -- that act in itself doesn't create a financial burden for the system. Some people here are trying to argue that there is LESS money available for education when people like me pull their kids out, and that's just nonsense. My taxes still are going into the pot, and I'm not getting anything out. There is no way this is creating a financial burden to the district.

[MichiganVote]

187. Trying to define what is a financial burden in the public schools

is a very confounding business. For some, a financial burden is defined as the cost of playing sports. For administrators it may mean a loss of enrollees. Much of the reason for that is that school budgets are not determined the same day they have an a opening day count or mid year count.
Hence, for administrators, every student that is lost represents a loss of revenue for a school system. This is burdensome in that sometimes more teachers are on hire than are needed. Same with busing routes, special services or virtually any other service provided to students.

Your taxes may be going into the "pot" as you call it, just not your local schools "pot". Instead, your taxes are released in other educational initiatives such as grants, professional development for school staff in your state or to other state/local measures. Nevertheless, the amount of your state or local tax dollar (per education) will not be equal to the allotment released to a school distict for an attending student.

[pnwmom]

189. The loss of a student's reimbursement is only a factor if a student

leaves between budget periods, and then only affects that year. After that, I'm just paying taxes like anyone else who doesn't have kids in the public school. I'm supporting the schools, just like everyone who votes for the levies, pays taxes, and/or volunteeers in the schools.

If I'm creating a debit situation for the schools, then so is the retired couple next door.

"Nevertheless, the amount of your state or local tax dollar (per education) will not be equal to the allotment released to a school distict for an attending student."

Why should it be equal? They've been spared the cost of educating my child.

If schools care about enrollment, then they could do more to keep the students.I worked hard at my son's school, I got along with the teachers and the administration, but they were all hamstrung by the dictates coming from the district level.

My school district, which was quite progressive when we first moved here, has turned its back on any parents who don't believe in constant testing and a cookie-cutter education. We have a "standards based education" now. They're totally focused on getting all kids to perform exactly at grade level in every subject. (And they're so obsessed with NCLB testing that they no longer teach social studies in elementary school -- it's not on the test.)

Our district is getting high scores and lots of plaudits so its approach is working, apparently, for the large majority of kids in the middle. But my son doesn't fit in their little mold, so with every year in school, he was hating it more. Why should I put up with that, when I had other options?

Don't bother tell me to stay and work in the system. I did that for 3 kids over 15 years, and I knew there was no way the problems now would be fixed before it was too late for my son. Especially since this district is so proud of its high test scores. They don't care about kids like my son.

[MichiganVote]

193. A school's budget year is not the same as the state/local gov't

Be that as it may...

"The loss of a student's reimbursement is only a factor if a student leaves between budget periods, and then only affects that year."

---Student enrollment represents potential revenue, that's just a fact. Student enrolls, school has revenue or partial revenue for any part of the school year. Students in a community who don't enroll or enroll elsewhere = loss of revenue.

"If I'm creating a debit situation for the schools, then so is the retired couple next door."

---You don't "create" a debit situation by not enrolling your child in the local public school. However, figuratively, your family has more "revenue" potential to contribute to the school district than the retired couple next door. Even tho' many senior citizens vote for advances in school funding, economic stress is hitting them hard now too with the loss of Medicaid/Medicare benefits.

"If schools care about enrollment, then they could do more to keep the students."

---I know of many schools that try very hard to meet the needs of a diverse student body AND the dictates of federal/state/local offices or agencies. I'm sorry if that has not been your experience.

"My school district, which was quite progressive when we first moved here, has turned its back on any parents who don't believe in constant testing and a cookie-cutter education. We have a "standards based education" now. They're totally focused on getting all kids to perform exactly at grade level in every subject. (And they're so obsessed with NCLB testing that they no longer teach social studies in elementary school -- it's not on the test.)"

---NCLB was not created by school districts. Its a Federal law. And for what it's worth, nobody likes it. School folks don't mind accountability, but this law is all about testing.

"Our district is getting high scores and lots of plaudits so its approach is working, apparently, for the large majority of kids in the middle. But my son doesn't fit in their little mold, so with every year in school, he was hating it more. Why should I put up with that, when I had other options?"

---I don't recall trying to tell you what to do with your child. Do you?

"Don't bother tell me to stay and work in the system. I did that for 3 kids over 15 years, and I knew there was no way the problems now would be fixed before it was too late for my son. Especially since this district is so proud of its high test scores. They don't care about kids like my son."

---I'm sorry your son's experience was difficult.

[pnwmom]

201. No, you didn't try to tell me what to do with my child.

But some of the posters that I was responding to were saying that it is wrong for anyone (especially any Democrat) not to send their children to public schools.

Apparently you didn't read enough of the thread to be able to take my posts in context.

[MichiganVote]

205. I read the posts pnwmom...but I think its best to confine your objections

to the posters whose opinions you object to. Frankly, as a parent and as an educator and as a licensed therapist, I believe its best for children to be in an environment that optimizes their learning. If, as you say, the public school system was not a good fit for your child and you have another option that works, that's great.

Having said that, I hope more parents do challenge public schools to improve their responses. Its important they learn to do so effectively. That is not the same as painting public or private schools with too broad a brush nor do I intend to undo the good that these schools offer.

For my tax money, I simply prefer to support one public system, not two. And as I indicated, I do not support tax payer funds for private education. I believe there are too many pitfalls in something like that.

[pnwmom]

206. Well, we agree on that. I don't favor vouchers or charter schools because

they do take public money away from public schools.

But I don't understand people (not you) who criticize others when they decide another option is better for their child, and when they are willing to spend money on tuition instead of nice cars or vacations (our new car is 10 years old). And that was the issue I was discussing when you objected to some of my opinions.

And, yes, I understand that there are many people who don't even have a car and never take vacations.

So what's the answer? Should all the people who think like me be voting Republican? Or should we vote for Democrats, continue to support the public schools, but send our children elsewhere if that's what seems best?

How pure do we have to be to be welcome in this party?

[MichiganVote]

207. Purity, in any form, seems a pretty lost cause among human beings

If all I did in life was object to the legitimate use of other people's money....I don't think I'd have enough time to be happy. And I like being happy, its very satisfying.

I live in Michigan, but I do drive a foreign car. In fact, 2 out of three of the family cars are foreign. Should I consider myself a bad citizen of Michigan or an up and coming globalist? Same question, different issues.

[miketorse]

8. Ditto n/t

[JitterbugPerfume]

136. I would agree with you

if my ding bat ex daughter in law had not pulled my very bright 14 yr old grand son out of public school.

She did it without consulting my son (his present wife is a teacher) and they are helpless to do anything about it without coming up with a bunch of money for a lawyer

these kids are being denied an education


memorizing bible verses is part of his "homework" ALL home school is NOT equal

[sendero]

3. There's nothing I'd like more..

...than for these douchebags to keep paying school taxes but take their kids out.

And for those who haven't been paying attention - there is no surer way to get a kid to rebel like crazy the day he moves out of the house than to fill his head with bs and restriction all his childhood life.

I've seen this many times, and I personally think the insular life that these parents are building them in their childhood and teen years will backfire later.

If their "faith" has to be reinforced 24/7, it's not faith at all, it's fucking brainwashing.

[SoyCat]

31. We're dealing with just that in my family right now. My niece has just

been enrolled in an extremely small evangelical school and is rebelling mightily. Oh yes, we've also been cut off from her. I'd like to strangle her father.

[rfranklin]

4. That guy's a Moran!

It says so right in the article.

[AX10]

5. These fascists do want any other religion other than their own.

I am pro-public school!

[nolabels]

125. They have no alternative other than to ram their religion down your throat

Analyze their position, a loosely written fairy tale that stole philosophy and well intentioned mannerisms (along with many other things) from others for centuries. They called much of all the stolen booty part of their religion, then they called all that was done by them good and just. You have to ask yourself why would a leopard change it spots if what he has now worked for him past.

People that get hostile over beliefs (any beliefs) obviously have much to hide.

[and-justice-for-all]

6. This is part of the Xtian Nationalist Movement...

..And its lethal is allowed to follow through.

They can teach Creationism in Sunday School and they can pray at home...There is more then ONE faith that attends public schools, so if they want to pray in school then they will have to tolerant of other religious practices during school too. Religion in school is more of a distraction from getting a really education, its extracuricular, they have churches to do those things and home school should only be allowed in special cases.

Taking kids out of public school will set them back on a social level, they will not know how to act around people from their age group. Social interaction is just as important as math and science, taking a healthy kid out of public school is not good for the kid.

Christian Nationalist have a plan, a very evil and venomous Nazi like plan:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm#anchor8123

Conquering by Stealth and Deception
How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power

By Katherine Yurica

September 14, 2004

Paul Weyrich’s Secret Manual on How to Win Politically

Since the writing and posting of my essay, The Despoiling of America in February 2004, there is more and more evidence that not only has a cultural war been launched, but that the plotters are winning it. “Dominionism” now looks more like a term that is applicable to both right-wing-religious believers and to the neo-cons who were created and born in an astonishing resurgence of an immoral Machiavellianism: both groups believe in domination and control. While religious adherents adopted a decidedly heretical Christian doctrine,<1> the neo-cons continue to use the American churches to help execute their cabal. It was expressed this way by a Yurica Report talk board participant:


“One of the more sinister aspects of the current crisis is the influence of Leo Strauss on the pro-war, “neo-cons” who are determining so much of our foreign policy. While the Christian right thinks it is running the show, Leo Strauss’ irreligious philosophy is actually in control. Strauss believed that the rulers should not be religious, but should use religion to manage the people — which he evidently regarded as a stupid herd. He also believed that a state of war was great for controlling and directing the masses. So it’s all come together: the weirdest book of the bible , with its mysterious disasters; the scheming behind the scenes warmongers and an incident of terrorism that has served admirably as the Project for a New American Century’s hoped-for ‘new Pearl Harbor.’” Adrien Rain


Americans and the main-stream media have been very slow in catching on to the fact that we are in a war—a war that is cultural, religious and political. One document not mentioned in The Despoiling of America is the closeted manual that reveals how the right wing in American politics can get and keep power. It was created under the tutelage of Paul Weyrich, the man who founded the Free Congress Foundation. Conservative leaders consider Weyrich to be the “most powerful man in American politics today.” There is no question of his immense influence in conservative circles. He is also considered the founder of the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank made possible with funding from Joseph Coors and Richard Mellon-Scaife. Weyrich served as the Founding President from 1973-1974.



To get a sense of how revolutionary the political fight for power in the U.S. is, we need to look at a few quotes from what has been dubbed, “Paul Weyrich’s Teaching Manual,” the Free Congress Foundation’s strategic plan on how to gain control of the government of the U.S. Written by Eric Heubeck, and titled, “The Integration of Theory and Practice: A Program for the New Traditionalist Movement,” the document is no longer available at the Free Congress Foundation’s website for obvious reasons. But excerpts are published at the Yurica Report. The excerpts explain why the Dominionists are winning; the tactics they endorse are sheer Machiavellian:



I have paraphrased the four immoral principles of the Dominionist movement as the following:



1) Falsehoods are not only acceptable, they are a necessity. The corollary is: The masses will accept any lie if it is spoken with vigor, energy and dedication.

2) It is necessary to be cast under the cloak of “goodness” whereas all opponents and their ideas must be cast as “evil.”

3) Complete destruction of every opponent must be accomplished through unrelenting personal attacks.

4) The creation of the appearance of overwhelming power and brutality is necessary in order to destroy the will of opponents to launch opposition of any kind.



According to Jeffry Sharlet, Hitler’s Mein Kampf and William L. Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich are studied as textbooks in a particular leadership training group he wrote about in Harper’s magazine.



Eric Heubeck, the author of Mr. Weyrich’s manual, does not mince words. Here is a sample of the most immoral political program ever adopted by a political movement in this country. Notice that the manual begins with the adoption of the fundamental fact of Machiavellianism:



“This essay is based on the belief that the truth of an idea is not the primary reason for its acceptance. Far more important is the energy and dedication of the idea’s promoters—in other words, the individuals composing a social or political movement…



“We must, as Mr. Weyrich has suggested, develop a network of parallel cultural institutions existing side-by-side with the dominant leftist cultural institutions. The building and promotion of these institutions will require the development of a movement that will not merely reform the existing post-war conservative movement, but will in fact be forced to supersede it—if it is to succeed at all—because it will pursue a very different strategy and be premised on a very different view of its role in society….



“There will be three main stages in the unfolding of this movement. The first stage will be devoted to the development of a highly motivated elite able to coordinate future activities. The second stage will be devoted to the development of institutions designed to make an impact on the wider elite and a relatively small minority of the masses. The third stage will involve changing the overall character of American popular culture….



“Our movement will be entirely destructive, and entirely constructive. We will not try to reform the existing institutions. We only intend to weaken them, and eventually destroy them. We will endeavor to knock our opponents off-balance and unsettle them at every opportunity. All of our constructive energies will be dedicated to the creation of our own institutions….



“We will maintain a constant barrage of criticism against the Left. We will attack the very legitimacy of the Left. We will not give them a moment’s rest. We will endeavor to prove that the Left does not deserve to hold sway over the heart and mind of a single American. We will offer constant reminders that there is an alternative, there is a better way. When people have had enough of the sickness and decay of today’s American culture, they will be embraced by and welcomed into the New Traditionalist movement. The rejection of the existing society by the people will thus be accomplished by pushing them and pulling them simultaneously.



“We will use guerrilla tactics to undermine the legitimacy of the dominant regime…



“We must create a countervailing force that is just as adept as the Left at intimidating people and institutions that are used as tools of left-wing activism but are not ideologically committed, such as Hollywood celebrities, multinational corporations, and university administrators. We must be feared, so that they will think twice before opening their mouths…



“We will be results-oriented rather than good intentions-oriented. Making a good-faith effort and being ideologically sound will be less important than advancing the goals of the movement…



“We need more people with fire in the belly, and we need a message that attracts those kinds of people….We must reframe this struggle as a moral struggle, as a transcendent struggle, as a struggle between good and evil. And we must be prepared to explain why this is so. We must provide the evidence needed to prove this using images and simple terms….”



In actuality, the concept that dominionist minded conservatives should establish parallel or dual institutions is a new form of segregation. This is especially apparent when a conservative institution offers the same services or products as the liberal oriented institutions. In other words, if it is not possible for dominionists to takeover or grab power in every institution—they create a parallel world so that the left is to be separated and segregated from the right and conservatives are urged to purchase from the conservative institutions.



The fact that Weyrich’s plan has actually been instituted is all around us. The Council on Foreign Relations is mimicked by the secretive dominionist Council for National Policy. <2> The so called “liberal” press is countered with Fox News and Sun Myung Moon’s Washington Times, and dominionist talk show hosts spew their right wing political views and venom from coast to coast. Public schools are countered with private home and chartered schools. And in the last few months a move has been made within the churches to break-up and divide denominations along the lines of conservative beliefs in certain social issues so that two sets of churches will be created: one that practices right wing politics and one that is liberal!



It almost mimics what Jesus said he would do in the Bible: those on the Lord’s left will be cast into outer darkness, those on the Lord’s right will be the chosen elect, the over-comers of God’s people. This biblical imagery appears to be a powerful biblical affirmation for church-goers who desire to be on the Lord’s “right” politically as well—until one realizes that when the two groups of people stand facing the Lord—the mirror image is reversed: those on his right will be those facing him on the left; those on the Lord’s left will be those facing him on the Lord’s right! It’s just an aside, but it suggests to me that justice will actually be done, when the Lord says, “I never knew you” to those who loudly proclaim their hypocritical religious devotion to him, while ignoring his command to feed the poor and cloth the naked. The biblical passage goes on to say that those about to be cast out ask, “When did we fail to feed the poor and cloth the naked?” The answer is: “In as much as you did it unto the least of these my children—you did it unto me.” When dominionists seek to privatize medicare and social security, and deregulate corporate controls on whole industries, so that the poor and needy become poorer and needier, they have done it to the Lord.








The Myth of Terrorism and How the Corporate
Complex Joined the Power Grab





Yes! To this thought I hold with firm persistence;
The last result of wisdom stamps it true:
He only earns his freedom and existence,
Who daily conquers them anew.
Thus here, by dangers girt, shall glide away
Of childhood, manhood, age, the vigorous day:
And such a throng I fain would see,--
Stand on free soil among a people free!
Then dared I hail the Moment fleeing:
“Ah, still delay—thou art so fair!”


Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe, from Faust





The entire strategic conversion of the U.S.A. and its constitutional order into a theocratic corporate market-state is based upon an alleged threat to the “security” of the country. The political analysis of how, why and the historical “necessity” for the market-state has been laid out in a book for all of us to read. It’s the road map that joins the corporate world with the religious world.



The eloquent analysis from an eloquent and brilliant mind can be found and read in: The Shield of Achilles by Philip Bobbitt. Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 2002. Almost the entire book was written prior to September 11, 2001; however Bobbitt made insertions into his text to account for 9/11’s impact upon America’s foreign and domestic policies. Bobbitt uses Shell's Scenario Planning as his model to test possible scenarios in risk planning for the future. His book was being offered for sale at several think tank web sites when I decided to purchase it. He is a lawyer--professor of Constitutional Law at the University of Texas Law School in Austin. Inscriptions in two of his books show that he may have had a recent Christian conversion experience. He's a brilliant man. He was a fellow at King's College, London, in the War Studies Department and was counselor on international law at the Department of State. He was the director of intelligence, senior director for critical infrastructure and senior director for strategic planning at the National Security Council (under Clinton). He cites Condoleezza Rice' writings several times in the book.



Time Magazine published Bobbitt's essay explaining his book on September 9, 2002. He wrote:



“If September 11 is the forerunner of a new world conflict, coping with the conflict could bring a new constitutional order in its wake. In the 21st century, what might be called ‘market states’ could replace nation-states. Market states will have the same borders and political systems as nation-states but will shift important responsibilities from government to the private sector; multinational corporations will become surrogate agents of government, filling roles that government can no longer play and blurring the boundaries between political and corporate leadership....”



My response to Mr. Bobbitt is this: Corporations are not democratic bodies. They do not make good governments. (I have 20 years of experience working within a corporate entity that attempts to govern a community. Its record is dismal; it acknowledges no constitutional rights for its citizens. Only the bylaws and Articles of Incorporation hold sway and even these are frequently broken should it be advantageous for the board to do so.)



I call Bobbitt a dominionist based on his political preferences and his religious leanings. For instance Bobbitt prefers the privatization of medical care, social security, pensions and schools. (At page 671.) He prefers the discouragement of government regulations of any kind and will tolerate income disparities. He prefers that job creation be achieved at the cost of job security. And he prefers an all-volunteer military. <3>



Moreover, Bobbitt prefers a laizze faire “entrepreneurial” market-state that is confrontational to workers as opposed to two other possible market states which he creates as models: The “mercantile model” (in which he says consumer opportunities are sacrificed to the long-term opportunities of the society as a whole) and the “managerial model,” which he says is often called the Soziale Marktwirtschaft, (p. 672) (Social Free-Market Economy) that provides a social safety net for society. Thus Bobbitt places himself completely in line with the political right’s agenda. Moreover, while holding the Christian banner aloft, he that Christianity betrays. For he willingly places corporate business interests above the welfare of the people. In my understanding of the scriptures, Bobbitt’s model is not a Christian model—it is in fact the antithesis of Christianity. (In this I agree with Jimmy Carter.)



One of the more astonishing statements I came across in Bobbitt’s discussion and praise for the entrepreneurial market-state is this:



“The Entrepreneurial Model tends to loosen the identification that citizens feel with the larger polity: autonomy and individual achievement are so prized and the consumption of particular goods so meaningful an act of self-definition that the citizens of these states ‘invent’ their citizenships, identifying themselves with those subgroups within the state with whom they share a consumption pattern.” (Page 670.)



Mr. Bobbitt has just described corporate heaven! But in reality, Bobbitt is envisioning a Faustian perversity, for he replaces Faust’s vision of a free people standing on free land—the American ideal—with a vision of citizens identifying with their peers based on each other’s pattern of purchases. Faust was willing to give his eternal soul for his vision of freedom. What price does Bobbitt and the religious-right pay for their vision I wonder?



Let’s look at another vision. This one is based in fear. Bobbitt regards terrorist groups as “virtual states.” What an incredible elevation of the Mafia concept. We are asked to accept superpower equivalence for those criminals who have the imagination to network! Hence the war against the virtual state can last 100 years or more. Bobbitt’s emersion in war and his fear of attacks blinds him to issues of what is moral in warfare. He lumps retaliatory military strikes by the U.S. for an attack upon the U.S. with pre-emptive strikes against an alleged enemy.



I want to contrast two passages. One is written by Bobbitt, the other by Mr. Bush’s writers. First Mr. Bobbitt:



“…uclear weapons strategy, clandestine intelligence collection, and covert action sometimes require a level of secrecy that is incompatible with open government or even the relation between parliamentary oversight and the citizenry that links government to the people…It is simply absurd to think that a system of nuclear deterrence could be maintained if the president had to go to Congress for a declaration of war before launching a retaliatory or pre-emptive strike.” (p. 235)



In September, 2002, Mr. Bush delivered a document to congress titled, “The National Security Strategy of the United States of America.” In it congressmen read:



“For centuries, international law recognized that nations need not suffer an attack before they can lawfully take action to defend themselves against forces that present an imminent danger of attack….We must adapt the concept of imminent threat to the capabilities and objectives of today’s adversaries. Rogue states and terrorists do not seek to attack us using conventional means…Instead, they rely on acts of terror and, potentially, the use of weapons of mass destruction—weapons that can be easily concealed, delivered covertly, and used without warning…To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively.”



Mr. Bush needs war. Mr. Bobbitt sells the idea of the necessity of war in this quote:



“There is a widespread view that war is simply a pathology of the State, that healthy states will not fight wars. This view ignores the role strategy plays in the formation and continuance of states. War, like law, sustains the State by giving it the means to carry out its purposes of protection, preservation, and defense.” (p. 780)



How Machiavellian Mr. Bobbitt sounds. Peace is bad for us. And war is not only good—it’s a necessity.



I would add this: Mr. Bush’s April, 2004 press conference brought a new vision I had not heard before: “America” he said, “is called to bring freedom and liberty to the people of the world.” It immediately reminded me of Pat Robertson’s phrases. The words “liberty” and “freedom” had special meaning to him and to “Christians” like Patrick Henry: “Liberty carries a heavy responsibility. It demands Christian self government…” (This definition was offered on the 700 Club on July 1, 1986.)



Does Mr. Bush mean that the U.S. will preemptively invade other “heathen” and “uncivilized” nations and establish “Christian” governments over them? Maybe.



Lastly, in closing his book, Philip Bobbitt reiterates his own uppermost emotion: “We are entering a fearful time, a time that will call on all our resources, moral as well as intellectual and material…” He then closes his amazing work with this:



“I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year: ‘Give me a light, that I might tread safely into the unknown.’ And he replied, ‘Go out into the darkness and put your hand into the Hand of God. That shall be to you better than light and safer than a known way.’” (p. 823)



As a Christian, I always thought that God was light or illumination and this is particularly true because Jesus said, "I am the light of the world." I also took to heart Psalm 23: where we are taught “to fear no evil.” In the end, all that Philip Bobbitt has is the fact that he is surrounded by darkness. He has placed his hand in the hand of someone he thought was God, but he cannot really see who it is that is holding his hand.



Pity the nation that submerges itself in fear and its rhetoric. Americans and the British did not get through WWII by dwelling on fear. They did not overcome their enemies by cowering in the darkness and placing their hands in the hand of an unknown stranger. They won because they overcame their fears and outfought their enemies. That is our task once again. These are not “fearful” times. These are the days of creativity and courage. Since when has any nation trembled before a handful of criminals? Call them what you may—Pirates? Outlaws? Gangs? Or Goliath? They have never had a future much less a projection of a hundred years of successful criminality. Our world has never been safe from dangers: mankind has been subjected to earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, diseases, accidents, and has not death visited both the young and old? But civilization keeps marching on. Let us never follow false leaders into the valley of fear ever again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



<1> The doctrine that Christians should seek worldly power and use it to dominate the culture of any country they occupy was first expressed by Pat Robertson on his 700 Club show in the 1980’s. On his 700 Club television show (5-1-86) Robertson said: “God’s plan is for His people, ladies and gentlemen to take dominion…What is dominion? Well, dominion is Lordship. He wants His people to reign and rule with Him…but He’s waiting for us to…extend His dominion…And the Lord says, ‘I’m going to let you redeem society. There’ll be a reformation….We are not going to stand for those coercive utopians in the Supreme Court and in Washington ruling over us any more. We’re not gonna stand for it. We are going to say, ‘we want freedom in this country, and we want power…’” Robertson said on his program the 700 Club (5-13-86): “We’ve sat idly by long enough and said, ‘Well religion and politics don’t mix.’ Don’t you believe it. If we don’t have moral people in government then the only other people that can be in government are immoral. That’s the only way it goes. Either you have moral people in there or you have immoral people.”



<2> The Council for National Policy (CNP) was founded in 1981 when Timothy LaHaye (author of the Left Behind series) became the organization's first president. LaHaye is credited with the idea of the organization. The CNP has been cloaked in secrecy since its inception. The organization holds three meetings each year to plan the strategy for implementing its agenda. The activists meet with their financial backers who put up the money to execute the agenda of the institution. The membership list and any speeches made to the members are kept in strict secrecy. White House officials have appeared before the group, including President Bush, but their remarks have been held in secrecy. The Yurica Report obtained a list of members from several years prior that reveal the heavy weights in the Christian and hard right dominionist movement. Here is a sample: Gary Bauer, Pat Boone, Grover Norquist, Dr. Gary North and R. J. Rushdoony, (North's father-in-law, the founder of the Christian Reconstructionist and Dominionist movement), Lt. Col. Oliver North, Pat Robertson, James Robinson, Howard J. Ruff, Nelson Bunker Hunt, Howard Ahmanson, Jr., Phyllis Schlafly, Bob Jones, III, Jack Kemp, Alan Keyes, Dr. James Kennedy, Beverly LaHaye, Tim LaHaye, Marlin Maddoux, Peter Marshall, Jr., Dr. James Dobson, Jeffrey Coors, Joseph Coors, Bill Bright, Major General John K. Singlaub, Lt. General Gordon Sumner, Jerry Falwell, Father Charles Fiore, Alan Gottlieb, Lt. General Daniel O. Graham, Edwin Meese, Paul Weyrich, John W. Whitehead, Rev. DonaldWildmon, Pierre du Pont, Ann Drexel, Arnaud deBorchgrave, Richard DeVos, Terry Dolan, Sen. William Dannemeyer, Jesse Helms, etc.



<3> This latter point of an all-volunteer military may appear to be a surprising inclusion. However, it's worth looking at the dangers of an all-volunteer military. Dr. M. Scott Peck in his book The People of the Lie writes : “A draft--involuntary service--is the only thing that can keep our military sane. Without it the military will inevitably become not only specialized in its function but increasingly specialized in its pyschology. No fresh air will be let in. It will become inbred and reinforce its own values, and then, when it is once again let loose, it will run amok as it did in Vietnam. A draft is a painful thing. But so are insurance premiums; and involuntary service is the only way we have of ensuring the sanity of our military ‘left hand.’The point is that if we must have a military at all, it should hurt. As a people we should not toy with the means of mass destruction without being willing to personally bear the responsibility of wielding them. If we must kill, let us not select and train hired killers to do the dirty job for us and then forget that there's any blood involved. If we must kill, then let us honestly suffer the agony involved ourselves. Otherwise we will insulate ourselves from our own deeds, and as a whole people we will become like the individuals described in previous sections: evil. For evil arises in the refusal to acknowledge our own sins.” (At page 232)

[ComerPerro]

10. That person holding his hand sounds familiar. Who could it be.... maybe

SATAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wiley50]

77. Thankyou For Giving Voice to My Deepest Fear

Thankyou for all the work you put into this post.

Yes, Katharine Yurica of yuricareport.com
has been the greatest canary our coal mine
of freedom has ever seen.

I lived in Tulsa in the late 70's and early 80's
the town owned by Oral Roberts and Kenneth Copeland
I know the insanity in the eyes of a Rhema Bible School student.

And I have been afraid for all these years

People who do not see the growing danger of the religeous right
are blind in their own egotism.
These people are like the walking dead on meth,
like The Stepford Wives with knives.

and to them, Smirkzilla is their Messiah

Don't make the mistake of laughing them off
Misunderestimating them will be fatal for us
And slavery for our children

When we get another 911
either by internal or external cause
their militias will be in the streets
and on your doorstep

I live in Tennessee now
I know of a dozen different ones
armed and ready for what they see
as the call of God
to fulfil His plan

Sure, They are Nutty as Fruitcakes
But are all psychopathic homicidals
are
Either escape
or be prepared to defend yourselves

It's coming

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. "These people are like the walking dead on meth"

:rofl:

Funniest reply in the whole thread.

[napi21]

7. That's fine. Ithink that's probably a good thing.

Do they also have some taxpayer funding in mind? THAT I disagree with! My parents sent me to a Catholic grade school & high school. Back then, it only cost $200 a year. I personally feel I missed out onthe interaction between young boys & girls in the high school years because it ws an all girls school. I have to believekids who are home schooled will find it even worse! There are lots of things in the world all parents would like to protect their children from, but bad things aren't going away. I think the home schooling parents are harming their children by protecting them too much. There'll be a rude awakening when they finally have to get a job and face the real world.

[ComerPerro]

13. "Christian" home school programs should not be recognized

[Solo_in_MD]

30. But Christian, Buddist, Islam day schools should be?

what about atheist home schools?

[ComerPerro]

33. well, obviously "atheist" day schools wouldn't teach the Bible

as literal, scientific, and historical fact, now would it.


People often try to confuse atheism or no religion with religion.

Your post reminds me of all the good Christians around me who try to argue that Christianity should be taught in public schools, because "by not teaching about religion, they are showing a bias towards atheism"

[Solo_in_MD]

39. Religious home schools should not be dismissed based soley because they

also teach religion. Each home school situation should be judged on how the students do on the dreaded standardized test.

I am a radical when it comes to education. I believe in testing. I believed it when I was teaching and I believe it now. I see no reason not to apply the standard tests to all schools, home, public or private. That position is unacceptable to the HSLA as it is to the NEA. Too bad...we are short changing the kids if we do not hold the schools to some level of accountability.

[ComerPerro]

71. The reason religious home schooling of any kind should be dismissed

is that it primarily teaches religion, and does so at the expense of other more important things.

Its only a matter of time before these home schoolers start demanding their own test (every answer, BTW, is (d): God did it)

I'm not a big fan of catholic or Christian private schools, but at least we know they are teaching the basic subjects.

Religious home schools are often just as bad as Christian Universities (Diploma Mills) like Pat Robertson's school.

[Solo_in_MD]

105. It seems inconsistent to claim that the private schools are tolerable

and home schools are not, since they are in essence private schools. Its also not particularly rational to lump all home schools that have a religous instruction as part of the ciriculm together. Check out the home school area here at DU and open your mind a little.

[LeftyMom]

135. Especially in states where a home school is a private school

In California the only legal distinction between our family's homeschool and St. Whoever's up the street is that thier enrollment is sufficient to require an annual fire inspection and ours is not.

[and-justice-for-all]

120. Its all part of their plan.....

Read the message in my first post....Its vital people understand whats going on and what these people are working towards, it may sound all fine and dandy but the result is a knife in the neck. Please dont be fooled by those people.

Education is very important, we need our kids learing the things that make a future possible. They dont need to be praying or reading the bible they need to be working on chemistry, math and sciences.

[citizen snips]

46. I agree

home school is not the real world.

[stepnw1f]

14. Creepy Control Freaks

who demand to live in a bubble excluding all other human beings. These types would revel in genocide of all others, I am convinced.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamidue]

16. From July of this year:

Study Finds Worst Performance in Conservative Christian Schools
...........
In eighth-grade math, children in Lutheran schools did significantly better than children in public schools, but those in conservative Christian schools fared worse.

The report separated private schools by type, and found that among private-school students, those in Lutheran schools did best, while those in conservative Christian schools did worst. For example, in eighth-grade reading, children in conservative Christian schools did no better than comparable children in public schools.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0715-01.htm

[knitter4democracy]

20. I could've told you that: have you read their curricular materials?

I interviewed for a Baptist school when I was first trying to find a teaching job, and I went through their materials for high school English. It was crap. There were too many fine books and poems left out, and there was nothing to encourage thoughtful reading and literary criticism. Most of them use the Berean system, and it's just crap.

My in-laws sent all four of their kids to a Baptist elementary, and their kids were a full year behind when they switched to the public high school. Thank goodness they were all hard-working and smart enough to deal with it (well, their mom wrote one daughter's papers, I'm pretty sure), but it was horrible.

[Wise Child]

40. I went to a Baptist school,

They skipped over modern literature pretty well, few relevant Twentieth Century authors, there was some attempt at superficial comprehension, yet no literary criticism. One enlightened teacher had us read To Kill A Mockingbird, very little modern literature taught besides that, leaving us with no grasp of modern literature. It's probably why I majored in English.

[EFerrari]

70. Welcome to DU, Wise Child!

I see you are in the right thread. :)

[knitter4democracy]

127. I went to a Nazarene college.

As an English major, I was constantly upset with our curriculum. It was heavy on the classics but seriously light on the twentieth century. When they tried to fix that and have a Contemporary Lit course, it turned into a fiasco. They put a new prof, a Dickens guy, no less, in the class, and he had no idea how to teach it. His syllabus came from his book of the month club. :eyes: Anyway, he also made us read the New Yorker every week, and a short story in there offended the "Christian" sensibilities of the Christian Ed and religion majors in the class. They made such a fuss that the prof almost got fired, the New Yorker was yanked from the school library and banned from the campus as pornography, and we all had to turn in our copies to be destroyed (some of us refused, but we weren't fined).

Yeah, that's what small-minded crap can happen in a Christian school.

[riderinthestorm]

158. And there are now more Evangelical colleges than ever

to accomodate all of these homeschooled religious right kids. They will take them regardless of what they have been taught, and then these schools have set up a pipeline to set these kids up in patronage jobs (like Bob Jones University and the conservative intern system in Washington for example).

It's a frightening progression that should alarm everyone.

I watched a pair of girls for 8 weeks this winter during the Florida horse show competition season. They were 12 and 14 years old, living in a deluxe camper van mostly alone. Their father sets up the scoring systems for most of the competitions in the south during the winter and these two girls were basically on their own for 6/7 days. They were homeschooling themselves. They said their mom would check their homework via online but when I asked them each day as we were hacking what they were studying they would just giggle and roll their eyes. Algebra? (oh yeah, they'd giggle and look away), American history? (uh huh. snort!) etc. etc.

They were the middle kids of 8. Their two older siblings were in "college" at Liberty University, one of their sisters was about to go to Bethel.

Religiously based homeschooling is not about educational learning imho, it's about indoctrination and total social control of these kids growing up.

[knitter4democracy]

190. That sounds like some kids I knew.

There are some religiously based homeschooling parents who are serious about a full education. I've known some of them. There are many others who are more concerned about not letting their kids be exposed to anything they might diagree with.

My last roommate in college had been homeschooled, along with her two younger sisters. She knew almost no math or science and yet went on and on about how she was far better prepared for college because she'd read Plato and the classics. Guess what her dad's degree was in. :eyes: She and I had a huge fight one night about it (my mom's a retired public high school art teacher, my stepmom a retired home ec teacher, and I was in training to be a high school English teacher and a product of public schools). I asked her how in the heck she thought she was better prepared when the only major she could feasibly handle was a communications degree (an easy load at our school). There was no way she could've gone into any of the sciences, into math, or even into business--how is that well prepared?!

She never spoke with me about it again after that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. They have a Christian home school curriculum that is just horrible

It is all workshhets, worksheets, and more worksheets. I guess that is so Mom can sit and read the bible while Johnny does 1000 math problems.

[knitter4democracy]

128. I've seen parts of that.

I was less than impressed.

I have a cousin whose wife is homeschooling their daughter, and they always go on and on about how she's a grade level ahead for her age. They're using Berean, though, so it sounds like she's on track.

[LeftyMom]

139. Some of the "Christian" texts are really quite bad

Not just because of the anti-science attitudes, but because they're so focused on drudge work and repetition. I think there's an attitude in some fundie families that you'll ruin the child's character if you let them have any fun and a lot of the books they use appeal to that idea. BJU stuff is like that, and while Saxon isn't Christian fundies love it, as far as I can tell, primarily because it's deadly boring and repetitive.

There are a few that are reputed to be pretty good though, even a few popular with non-Christians who just skip over the God bits but find the rest worth the trouble.

[knitter4democracy]

191. Hey, I like Saxon.

Math finally made sense to me when I was in my school's pilot Saxon program. It never really made sense to me before that.

It's true, though, that much of it is dreadfully boring. It would take a creative teacher to make it worthwhile.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. They'll pose a real threat to immigrant labor.

You know, picking tomatoes, emptying bedpans, scrubbing floors, and all those other jobs the nasty "illegal aliens" are "stealing" from them.

[mzteris]

21. not all homeschoolers

are right-wing "Christian" nutjobs....

some of us are progressive liberals who are homeschooling because it is the best possible option for our children.

I am NOT anti-PS - I have one in PS and graduated on from PS, but one of my kids is better off with a hs setting.

Please do NOT lump all hs'ers together. Please do NOT for one moment believe that all hs'ers are ignorant.

There is a homeschool group here on DU - if you'd like the truth about hs'ing, look us up.

[Critters2]

22. See post number 9 nt

[brer cat]

37. We all need to remember to be more respectful of each

individual's situation. Education needs of children vary widely as do the ability of public schools to provide. I sent my own child to Catholic schools in Atlanta area even though I'm not Catholic because the local ps were so low performing and limited in resources. I still paid taxes to support those schools, and believe in ps but it's simply not for every child.

My hat is off to you, mzteris!

[Critters2]

43. You paid taxes, but

the school district received less state tax monies because your kid was in a private school. Public schools can't improve their performance without better funding. Each child NOT in attendance at a public school harms the school.

How do Democrats not get this?

[NashVegas]

65. What You Seem to Not Understand About Public Schools

Which of these quotes regarding education is not real?

1. "School produces mental perversion and absolute stupidity." --Vincent Youmans, world-famous American physician and academic (1867)
2. The creation of the compulsory public schooling system was ordered by "certain industrialists and the innovative who were altering the nature of the industrial process." --James Bryant Conant, President of Harvard University from 1933 to 1953 (1949)
3. "We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science." --Rockefeller's General Education Board (1906)
4. Education is "the development of critical reasoning and the acquiring of basic facts relating to science, history, the arts, and similar areas." --Education Department (1968)

[Critters2]

68. What I understand is that homeschooling and private schooling

are privileges of wealth, that abandon the public schools to become the poorhouses of the future...where middle and upper class "progressives" wouldn't even consider letting their kids be seen.

[pnwmom]

122. As a good Democrat, when my child needs to go to the emergency room,

should I limit myself to the public hospital? Because that is all some people can afford? Or, am I allowed to take him to a private, nonprofit hospital? And do we remain in good standing as Democrats if we use our private health insurance, even though so many people don't have any?

What about you? Have you ever had private health insurance? Have you used a private hospital? But don't you believe in public health?

In my family, two of us went to private school, and two didn't, based on our needs and interests. My own children have all taken a different path through school, based on what was best for each of them at the time.

Sending some of our kids to private school, or homeschooling them, doesn't mean we're giving up on the public schools. It just means that a particular child needs something else. We're not a communist country and we still do have choices.

[Critters2]

147. The only hospital I have easy access to is a public hospital

You assume everyone has choices. You're wrong. A privileged few do. You're among the privileged few. The French had a term you might want to look up--"Noblesse oblige". You really do have a responsibility to those you don't know.

[pnwmom]

154. You didn't answer my question about private health insurance.

Do you have health insurance? Do you think it's unfair to use it when other people don't have it?

Having access to a private, non-profit hospital doesn't put me among the "privileged few." It just means that I live in a large, metropolitan area. And, like the majority of Americans, we do have health insurance.

But just because we have insurance, and do use it, doesn't mean I don't support the idea of public insurance -- I do. Just as I support public education, even though my youngest child is no longer in the system.

[Critters2]

169. I volunteer a good many hours each week

with an organization that works toward single-payer universal health care. I worked for 4 years as a health care consumer advocate, at less than minimum wage, to find ways for the poor to have access to health and dental care.

I've spent my life working to fight the system that makes health care available only to a portin of the American people.

I feel a responsibility to all members of my community and my nation. I'm a Democrat.

[pnwmom]

177. Good for you. But it sounds like you have or have had health insurance.

Which proves my point. It doesn't hurt the rest of the community if you stay healthy due to your health insurance -- or if my son gets an education, because I go outside of the system. As long as we both keep supporting public health and public education.

[Ikonoklast]

141. Wealth? Puhleeze.....

I am a product of private schooling, up to high school, as were my four siblings. My parents sacrificed mightily (they were far from rich; blue-collar working-class all the way) for us to attend the school OF THEIR CHOICE, and they chose a Catholic education for us.

My three children also attended private Catholic schools, up to university. I am a single parent and have dug deep to accomplish it, as I, too, am a blue-collar working stiff. It was MY CHOICE for them.

When the local public school district was having money problems due to some serious fiscal mis-management, and told all the private schools in our district that they were not going to bus 'their' students, all the private schools decided to tell the public school district that they were going to shut down and send every student to sign up at their local public school, K thru 12. About 1600 students total, IIRC.

Panic ensued. They had absolutely no way in hell of absorbing that many new students.
They found money to bus everyone. Funny how quick that happened.


They also always 'found' money to buy new sports equipment every year, no matter how bad things got. I always resented the fact that I was forced to pay taxes so that some football coach could have nice new uniforms for his team every year.

If my kids played sports, and they all did, I paid the extra amount for equipment, uniforms, transportation, officials' fees, etc. ad nauseum. I didn't expect someone else to do it for me, rich liberal latte-drinking elitist that I am.

[pnwmom]

121. We don't "get" it, because you're wrong.

The school district with fewer students NEEDS less in state tax reimbursements because they have fewer students to educate. Fewer students mean fewer teacher salaries to pay, which is the biggest item in any district's budget. Some costs are constant, so district costs do not go down at the same RATE as enrollment, but they do go down overall, EVEN accounting for the fact that some students withdraw between budget periods.

You also are ignoring the amount of money that parents of private/homeschooled kids pay in taxes, for which they receive no services at all.

[mzteris]

47. thanks.

It's nice to not be dumped on. :)

Every child deserves an education.

[JI7]

23. "everything i BELIEVE is disallowed"

yeah, dumbass, it's not about fucking beliefs. evolution is not taught based on belief but with science behind it. and kids can pray in public schools during their free time if they want. nobody is stopping them. just because the school doesn't lead and order everyone to do it and set aside time for it doesn't mean it's not allowed.

[mzteris]

25. and when the fundies take over the school boards

who do you think will be crying for the right to homeschool?

[citizen snips]

49. exactly

nobody is taking the individual's right away to pray in public schools.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. He's peeved that he can't force those beliefs on others

No one is suggesting that he can't teach his children whatever he wants at home. He wants everyone else's children to be taught it too, that's the problem. Since he can't have that he's pulling his kids out.

[mainer]

41. So now we have our own madrassahs?

There's a reassuring trend.

[sakabatou]

69. Hey, MORAN!

Read the laws carefully: It doesn't state that prayer in school is disallowed.

[MysteryToMyself]

146. We are supposed to have

Separation of Church and State. Right?

Foresight tells me that when the republicans perfect mind control, then we will see a time when only one religion will be allowed in schools and in America. Wasn't that the way it was before we came to America? And that is why we fight it here.

Even if it isn't the law, it is a good idea.

[LostInAnomie]

81. I have been saying that for years.

If they want to have school led prayer, learn about creationism, have classes over scripture, etc. go to a private school. Modern public schools are not designed to indoctrinate to a faith. Do that on your own time with your own dollar.

[Kurovski]

100. I don't get it. Do they believe they're all flying up to heaven soon

in one rapturous mass, or not?

Why bother with this if they're all headed out soon? Where's the faith?

[NMMNG]

117. Hello!!!

Schools are for education and the teaching of facts.

Church is for religion and the teaching of religious beliefs.

They don't allow the teaching of evolution and humanism in their churches so why do they think that the teaching of creationism and other religious topics should be allowed in schools?

[LWolf]

130. Public Schools take a lot of criticism from all sides.

Fundie christians aren't the only people who bash public ed. Democrats are good at it, too. Democrats are especially good at criticizing the state of public ed while they support the legislative efforts of republicans to undermine and privatize public ed. Meanwhile, it just feeds the flames of those burning to indoctrinate children safe from anyone who is "different from us."

[leesa]

133. This is so sad. I know some people can do homeschooling, but most cannot

My two nieces and one nephew are homeschooled and they are so backwards socially and their education is so spotty, I fear they will never be able to function in the real world. Of course, one girl's goal is to work at WalMart anyway, so I guess that might work...The boy was probably very bright though, and I don't think he will be able to function outside the home.

So many Fundies are not well mentally and if their kids are not exposed to other normal kids and homes they will never escape their homes as whole people.

[Raffi Ella]

134. The Bush Mullahs have really stepped over a line.

Seperation of Church & State;What part of that do they not understand and or respect??

We need to start a coalition to protect "Seperation of Church & State",educate people on what that means and make people aware of these extremist behavior.

[OzarkDem]

142. GOP needs more money

Most voucher programs and charter schools have been shown to be nothing more than massive campaign money laundering machines, taking money from the state & fed governments to establish "for profit" schools, a percentage of whose profits are funneled back into GOP campaign contributions.

Just another GOP scam.

[proud2BlibKansan]

182. Actually, vouchers are really a way for the taxpayers to pay

private school tuition for kids whose parents can already afford it. The voucher movement started back in the 60s and 70s, when parents formed private schools for their kids to keep them from having to go to integrated schools. They have the schools they want, the only thing missing is the govt funding.

I think we should use the same 'I got mine, you get yours' argument for vouchers that conservatives use for so many other govt services. Pull yourself up by your own boot straps, work hard, save your money and you too can afford private school for your kid.

Hey it works for welfare and health care, why not education? :)

[MysteryToMyself]

144. Here is a win win idea

I wish I had thought of it. Some public schools are furnishing the text books and the tests, but the student is taught at home by the parents. The teacher is available for help via the phone or computer. I suppose the public school gets the dollars that is given per student for attendance, because they are part of the system. Wouldn't that work for home schoolers?

I am a Baptist. I don't remember ever having a school prayer when I went to school, and that was before all this talk of no prayer in school. I taught my children about our religion at home and they learn most at Sunday School and at the church. I sent them to school to learn the basics and learn to deal with different people. The same for my grandchildren, now. I wouldn't want certain religions to be taught to my child. What if the school teacher was Islam??

I believe that as many Islam believers will go to Heaven as Baptists, especially the Jerry Falwell Baptists, but still I don't want my children to get confused.

Some of these people pushing for religious home schooling are wanting to start up a profitable private school. They want to drain money from the public schools.

Once the privatizers destroy public schools, good private schools will cost $20,000 or more a year. That is what good ones cost now. It will be as expensive as college.

[LeftyMom]

157. I wouldn't want that.

Some of the home-based charters here offer that, and the public school district uses home-based programs to continue to get paid for kids with behavior problems (and typically assigns them work well below grade level and a teacher to meet with an hour a week, now may or may not show up.) You couldn't pay me to enroll my child in one of those systems- and they do pay, though typically with a free computer and other goodies.

As a homeschooling parent I value the autonomy that allows me to tailor my child's education to his needs. Needing to follow the local schools scope and sequence and use thier books would be a waste of my child's time and of mine, as he's well ahead of grade level in some areas, a bit behind in one and needs- as I would argue all children do- an education tailored to his unique needs and learning style. Besides, why should the school get paid for my labor? The whole reason he's not enrolled is that they aren't capable of educating him- why reward thier inability to do the required work?

[MysteryToMyself]

170. That is what my grandson gets in public school

He is put in classes according to his ability. He is in regular and advanced classes.

They even have classes for juvenile delinquents. They work with them in many ways to help them graduate without ending up in reform school.

They are not perfect, but I wouldn't be either as a teacher.

My grandson was put in the delayed learner's math class after testing as a genius once and advanced once in another school in Colorado. After that was straightened out, then things worked out better, but it was a hassle for my daughter. She and the teacher argued it out with the principal there. He sided with my daughter at the end. You have to stand up to them for your child sometimes. He is in AR now, and his biggest problem is not wanting to do his homework. I would hate to deal with that all day long. My daughter works outside the home, so she couldn't do it.

I am worried I have a hyperactive grandchild headed to school next year. That could present a problem, because we don't want him drugged. Bushites have passed a law that they can drug them without parental permission.

They push kids too hard, I think. The basics are the most important. Then they can do what interests them easily once they get the reading, writing and basic math facts down. But what do I know?

[RagAss]

188. Good News !!!...take those little kooks away from my kids !!!!!

[bluestateguy]

192. Yes, please do

That then gets their nutty parents out of the system too. Then they will stop bothering the rest of us. We can bring back realistic sex education, condoms in school and teach evolution as a fact.

Door's that way my fundy friends!

[Nikki Stone 1]

195. May be a way of creating a critical mass for a vastly expanded VOUCHER

system. Creating a demand for privatized religious education (how many parents really have the time and income to home school?) is the beginning of splitting apart the public system. It can justify more funds going to religious/private schools and less and less going to the public system.

I would love to see where the traitorous Department of Education falls on this.

[Critters2]

200. Progressives who homeschool and use private ed are helping

achieve this end, too.