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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 04:49 PM
Original message
Mexico challenger rallies support /pics
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 04:50 PM by cal04

Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador sings the national anthem during a rally at the main Zocalo plaza in Mexico City, Mexico






Thousands of Mexicans have again turned out at a rally in support of the left-wing candidate in the contested presidential election.

Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador told supporters in Mexico City's vast main square that they had a constitutional right to try to change the government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5311048.stm

pics
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060903/photos_wl/2006_09_01t224903_283x450_us_mexico_election
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Obrador is not the saint many of you believe he is
and what he is donig... take gun, aim at foot, pull trigger. Hope he does not manage to trigger a civil war
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. AMLO is a saint compared to Fox and Calderon
Whatever happened tp "give me liberty or give me death".
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. een following the whole mess and read all I could
on both ... and while Calderon is no saint, Obrador has so many Authoritarian personality elements, that it is right down scary.

Don't take my word for it, read the Mexican Press, and I don't mean only televisa or TV asteca.. Hell, these days even SubComandante Marcos is rather critical of him, care to tell me why? (Not to mention Cardenas, the FOUNDER of the PRD, but I am sure you knew this)

I am just stating a fact, he is no saint, and he has way too many warts... worrisome warts...

Will Calderon be a saint? Hardly... but Obrador was not a better choice... or to quote Mexicans with a dogie in this fight (we don't beyond they are our neighbors), Cadleron was the lesser of two evils. Oh and those Mexicaans ranged a slice from the poor to the well to do.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You must be a supporter of 'free' trade and sucking the poor in Mexico
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 05:06 PM by w4rma
dry. And a supporter of not creating any middle class in Mexico. You do realize that this exploitation of regular Mexicans is why we have this illegal immigration problem on our Southern border, correct?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not at all
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 05:10 PM by nadinbrzezinski
just a student of the truth... and the truth is that I have talked to Mexicans and read all I could get my paws on, It has been an interesting transformation, including that of Marcos, who went from for all intents and purposes calling for revolution in support of Obrador, to now being extremely critical of Obrador.

Explain that fact among many others. (Like Cardenas's begging him to stop what he is doign because he is damaging the left)

The reality is... what many Mexicans said, the choice on july second was not a good one, for anybody
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I heard Nader say that exact same thing, over and over in 2000 and 2004.
But at least Nader didn't says that Bush was the "lesser of the two evils".
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I heard Mexicans say this to me
and when asked why they said... well Calderon is no saint, but Obrador... he may turn the country into a dictatorship. I did not quite hear Nader say this in either 2000, or 2004... even if in 2004 he would have been close to the truth.

Look just because somebody claims to be a Liberal does not mean they are good. There are ayatollahs on all sides and political fanatics. Obrador happens to be one of them, just like George Bush. His life history has plenty in common, except the silver spoon of course with George. THat is, they share personality traits.

My conclusions are based on readying reams of Mexican Papers and talking to mexican citizens... and reading interviews. What are your conclusions based upon?
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Calderon/Fox are the folks working on a dictatorship.
Just like Bush refused to count the votes in 2000, Calderon/Fox have fought to keep the ballots uncounted. They know they committed massive fraud and that is why they have fought a full count tooth and nail. You are being suckered just like Bush suckered folks back in 2000 (I have no idea if you were suckered back then, also).

This whole thing is going on because of Calderon/Fox *refuse* to count the votes when their country has a history of stealing elections. I do find it interesting how someone can be tricked into believing that the dictator wannabe is the one trying to count votes and the savior of democracy is the one trying to stop the counting of votes.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. It tells you how complete the brainwashing is, doesn't it? Good grief. n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Ok... having grown up in Mexico
and having seen my fair of rigged elections... this one was actually pretty clean by Mexican standards. I am sure you know this, or maybe not, but the TRIFE threw out votes that were bad for BOTH sides.

I am also positive that you know that PRD members SIGNED the actas de Conformidad at the end of the day on July seocnd... which has already pissed off many of those poll workers.

Believe what you want... but the people, aka Mexicans, many of whom voted for him.. would not again... and I actually hoped for election nullification by the TRife, which also was requested by every editorial page in the city... again I am sure you knew this already, because Common Dreams has told this right?

And if you want to beleive this is brain washing, so be it. As a member of the reality based community, who HAS spent hours, if not weeks, readying and weighing the evidence, I can tell you... the Ameircan left is about to get hoodwinked.

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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Having researched this election well,
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 06:54 PM by w4rma
this one was cleaner than when the establishment stole the presidential election in 1988 from the major left-wing candidate. I am sure you know this, but the TRIFE threw out votes that were bad for BOTH sides in the small partial count, even though Calderon and Fox have fought tooth and nail for the TRIFE to not look at the ballots at all while Obrador's whole point is that the ballots need to be counted.

Election ballots found in trash dump in Veracruz

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2373785&mesg_id=2373785

Believe what you want... but the people, aka Mexicans, many of whom voted for Calderon.. would not again... and I actually hoped for a fair count of the votes.

And if you want to believe this is brain washing, so be it. As a member of the reality based community, who HAS spent hours, if not weeks, readying and weighing the evidence, I can tell you... you've been hoodwinked.

So, I suppose according to you Chavez has "hoodwinked" the American left also (never mind the breaking of the oil barons in Venezuela or the huge, unprecidented reduction in poverty)? Or maybe just every outspoken left-winger in Central/Southern America is a "wannabe dictator" according to you? And big corporate media (which is even more corrupt in the South than here in America) should be trusted when they smear those "dictatorial left-wingers" for actually standing up fighting back peacefully?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Believe what you want
I am done...

Being a member of the reality based community bites at times, for multiple reasons
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Delude yourself all you want with rumormongering and innuendos.
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 08:34 PM by w4rma
As a member of the reality based community and a student of the truth and facts, I've done my research.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. How About You List Those "Worrisome Warts"
since we obviously don't know what you are talking about.

"Authoritarian personality elements,"

Like what exactly?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. You are familiar with the events around the
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 05:10 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Governorship and election of Tabasco?

Then there is how he left the PRI, due to ahem irreconcilable differences. (They did not elect him chairman of an important body and he felt slighted)

Those are just two of them

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. any details would be appreciated
because suggesting something, doesn't equate to fact. Sorry... but I remain skeptical when I see people dissing the left. There is plenty of that already in the mainstream media, and most of it has been debunked as propaganda. So I remain extremely skeptical unless I see evidence to back up an accusation.
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hogwyld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. The very definiton of ANY politician is
to put it bluntly, a whore. You sell yourself to the special interests, and you vote for the one that you mostly identify with. While AMLO may not be a saint, at least you can admit that he would look out for the interests of the lower to middle class people, while the PAN guy just wants more of the same corporatism and free market crap that has left so many people behind. True socialism would help everyone except the elite bloodsuckers.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Does anyone remember which whore from the Bush bunch
went to Mexico to direct the smear campaign for Calderon, the candidate they wanted to win?

Once he was in place, he kicked up a filthy smear against Obrador which cut well into his numbers (after Obrador had been far ahead for a long time) using standard right-wing dirty tricks, like questioning his humanity, claiming he was dangerous, wild, was destined to become another Hugo Chavez (reinforcing the right wing smears against Chavez simultaneously), etc., etc., etc. It was completely underhanded, and typical for people who intend to win at all costs.

I can't remember which scum it was.

Quoting any opinions of Obrador from "a Mexican" as being standard wisdom is bizarre beyond belief, as they, like Americans, have diverse views, some of them based on dirty campaign lies by the opposition.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for the photos! n/t
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Many people do not realize what a lockstep the war profiteering
corporate media is in, as to demonizing leftist (marjorityist) leaders. Be gentle with them, Judi. They know not where their "memes" are coming from. It takes quite a lot of experience and insight--including (for most people) unplugging from corporate monopoly TV and radio "news" for a while--as well as psychological courage (willingness to face the real world), and critical reading abilities (seeing through journalistic tricks and dishonesty)--to understand how inside out, upside down and backwards corporate "news" has become, and how propagandistic and fascist it has become. It's nothing more than the "Big Lie" of Orwell's "1984."* Whatever it asserts that serves the interests of corporate rule (and its related wars), you can be fairly certain that the exact opposite is the truth. And some of us have traced some of these self-serving corporate "memes" (lies that are given currency by monopolistic media) to their source.

The Lopez Obrador as a "dictator" meme came directly from a professor at William and Mary College, who wrote a book called, "Mexican Messiah." He is the original AMLO "swift-boater." He likely wrote it at the behest of (and funded by) some rightwing think tank. However it got written and published, it has proven useful to the corporate rulers--and they have picked up on it and replicated it in opinion columns, editorials, and even in news articles and the framing of news stories. It's not yet quite so pervasive as the one on Chavez (below), but it's getting there. The man of the people, the spokesman for the huge population of the poor and the brown (by far the majority) in Mexico, the politician who lives in a small apartment and believes that, with so much poverty in Mexico, well-paid government officials should cut their salaries, the man who pledges to bring more fairness and justice to the economy, is now a "dictator"--a self-important "messiah," and also a leftwing bogeyman, a Castro, a Che, a Mao Zedong, an armed revolutionary, a jungle guerrilla fighter anxious to blow the heads off all the rich and super-rich.

It's just laughable. AMLO, the dictator. All he wants--and has ever spoken of--is FAIR taxation and an equitable economy. The super-rich experience this mild policy as beheading. Those 5 multi-billionaire CEOs who control all news here (and most Mexican corporate news as well) want to hang onto every peso of unseemly profit. Take one peso away from them, and they die a small death. They project AMLO--who only wants fairness--as their executioner. They find some whore academic to write it up--AMLO wants to be Mexico's "Savior." And it goes from there--from Jesus to Stalin--in one big fit of corporate paranoia.

The other aspect to this demonization of any strong leftist (majorityist) leader is that it focuses on him, as a personality, and ignores all his supporters and his policy team. Would THEY follow a dictator? It's ridiculous. And it's a huge insult to THEM--to the citizens, voters, organizers and professionals who support AMLO's candidacy and believe that the election was stolen. Are THEY "dictators"? All of them, collectively--at least half of Mexico? All they are asking for is, a) that all the votes be counted, and b) fair economic policy. And if they resist a stolen election, and resist egregious unfairness--peacefully, as they have been--is that dictatorial? It sounds like democracy to ME! Democracy at its best. But THEIR wishes are rarely or never considered or given voice in the corporate monopoly media. It's easier to focus on and demonize one person. And with that person demonized, it is then easy to twist everything around, and blame HIM for the violence that the Fox/Calderon fascists may be planning, or for divisiveness in the country. The divisiveness is the result of extremely unfair economic policy. Lopez Obrador did not do that. THEY did. Neither he nor his supporters are causing division. They are expressing their OBJECTION to that division--the rich elite vs. the vast population of the impoverished. And THAT is democracy! For if they were to put up with it, and remain silent sufferers, they would be acquiescing to their own oppression and to fascist policy--just as surely as blacks in the American south acquiesced to segregation, until, one day, they decided not to. And they, too, were called disruptive, troublemakers, and divisive, and their leader, Martin Luther King, was demonized. He was considered the Devil himself by some. J. Edgar Hoover hounded him to this death.

The war profiteering corporate news monopolies have done a similar trick on Hugo Chavez--a man who has been elected and re-elected by Venezuelans in the most heavily monitored elections in history. There is absolutely NO evidence that Chavez is "authoritarian." None! Nor that his supporters and his cabinet and his majority in congress would abide "authoritarian" government. Yet you find this "meme" about Chavez--that "his critics" claim that he is "increasingly authoritarian"-- throughout the corporate news monopoly press, in AP articles, in the NYT, the WaPo, the WSJ, and elsewhere. Always without quotation marks. "His critics claim." The ONLY quoted source I have ever found for this opinion of Chavez is Cardinal Carillo Lara, an extremely rightwing Catholic cardinal who spent his career in the Vatican running the Pope's finances, and was forced out of that office during the fascist banking scandals of the 1980s. He's now very old, and regularly spouts anti-Chavez opinions--to the embarrassment of the more moderate and liberal elements of the Catholic Church in Venezuela. So, is THIS who AP, the NYT, WaPo and the WSJ is "consulting" about Hugo Chavez? Probably him and Condoleeza Rice. There IS a tiny rich oil elite in Venezuela that loathes Chavez--and 24/7 corporate monopoly news vituperation of Chavez in the Venezuela media. Both this tiny rich oil elite and the corporate news monopolies openly supported the violent military coup against him, and he has taken NO revenge upon any of them--other than the actual main coup actors in the military, who were convicted and jailed (and were recently sprung from jail, possibly by the CIA). But I've never come across another quoted person, saying that Chavez is "authoritarian."

If you believe that Hugo Chavez is "authoritarian," then you have suffered over-exposure to corporate news monopoly propaganda, and should take a break from it and go on a Buddhist retreat or something. (Watch your mind watching your mind. Know what I mean?)

The same with Lopez Obrador.

Anyone can become full of himself, and authoritarian, and a dictator, of course. Look at Bush! HE's slaughtered a hundred thousand innocent people. He's had thousands of people tortured. He has torn up the U.S. Constitution and is daily inventing laws to suit himself and his junta. Do we ever see HIM described in these terms--authoritarian, dictatorial? They also always put "leftwing" in front of Lopez Obrador and Chavez, as if it were their first name or part of their official title. "The leftwing mayor of Mexico City." Do they ever put "rightwing" in front of Bush's name or title? "The rightwing President of the U.S."? (Think about it.) But there is NO EVIDENCE that this syndrome has hit either Lopez Obrado or Chavez. They like the spotlight. What politician doesn't? They are showmen. What good politician isn't? And they are both STRONG-MINDED individuals and leaders. How can you lead a movement for change without being strong-minded? They both at the same time seem to be good listeners--they are very responsive to the people they meet, and to the people in general. And they are also thoroughgoing populists. This is their only crime, really. To fascists, someone who tries to represent the interests of the majority must be a fake, or a dictator, out to behead the rich. Who in his right mind would want the rabble to have a voice in government? What man with power wouldn't use it to make himself rich? That's how they think. And so they conjure this spook--the leftist dictator--out of past spooks (the leftist guerrilla; the communist revolutionary; Robespierre), and repeat it thousands of times, until it becomes the unconscious, kneejerk spook that pops up in peoples' mind every time they hear the name Hugo Chavez. Another word for it is brainwashing. Our of their own demons--greed, tyranny--they create this phantom leftist leader, and, with the tremendous media power they have, they plant that phantom in everyone's heads.

I've almost laughed sometimes--although it's painful, too--seeing anti-Chavistas here at DU try to defend this spook, Chavez the dictator. They sputter and hem and haw (blogging-wise). One of them came up with a plank in the Venezuelan Constitution that says that maligning the government or the country can be prosecuted. It's never been used. They said, "But what's it doing there?" A lot of people wrote that Constitution. I don't know what was on their minds. All I know is that Chavez has IGNORED it. So they have a bad law. So do we--any number of them. What does that have to do with CHAVEZ? And where is the other evidence? He just the other day squelched a plan by the mayor of Caracas to confiscate two country club golf courses for low cost housing because it was UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Venezuela's Constitution guarantees property rights. How radical and dictatorial is that? All the evidence goes the other way-that Chavez is respectful of the law and the limits on his power as president. There is NO evidence--not even a hint of evidence--that he is "authoritarian."

Nothing. Nada. He is NOT a dictator. He is the duly elected, and very popular, president of his country, with policies that respond to the will of the majority--all in all, a rather moderate program.

I should also mention that both Mexico and Venezuela have a lot of oil. Ring any bells? And both Chavez and Lopez Obrador support using some of their country's oil profits to help the poor--lawfully of course, through fair taxation. Now THAT is dictatorial.

-------------------------------

Note

* Perhaps an even better analogy is "Alice Wonderland." The Red Queen orders all the white roses painted red. Her minions immediately get out the buckets of red paint and paintbrushes and begin doing so--because if they don't, "Off with their heads!" Alice enters the scene, sees them painting the white roses red, and finds this absurd. She still has a logical brain from the normal world. She can see quite clearly how idiotic it is to PAINT roses--and how tyrannical the Queen is (to order them to be painted, because they are not "her" color). "Alice in Wonderland," aka, "Through the Looking Glass," is literally an inside-out, upside-down, backwards world, in which the lies of society are mirrored. People who have begun to understand how bad corporate "news" is, are like Alice. We spot the lie more quickly. But those who are steeped in corporate "news" are like the denizens of Wonderland who have learned to accept the utterly absurd as their reality. They seem to have no choice--it's all around them. Absurdity is the norm. And, in some cases--as with the Red Queen's minions--it's a matter of survival. If you don't accept white roses painted red, as real red roses, you get your head chopped off. Orwell summed up this Big Lie method of propaganda with Big Brother's phrase, 'War is peace." Sound familiar? Black is white. 2 plus 2 equals 5. The earth is flat. Say it often enough and it becomes true--sort of--because everybody seems to believe it. And I stress "seems." The human mind is always rebelling, or capable of rebelling, against lies, falsehood, deceit, propaganda. I know. I survived years of rightwing Catholic education. Alice in Wonderland Deluxe. The Catholic Church, Bush & Co., and the corporate news monopolies are similar to the Red Queen. They are painting white roses red all the time. But absurd as their assertions are, it is not that easy to step outside their Wonderland and find reality and truth for yourself. The "news' is our umbilical cord to the "nation." They use that dependence against us. If we cut the cord to their lies, then who are we? What can we trust? How do we determine what's real and true? It can be hard. But it's very important that we try.
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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Peacepatriot....awesome as usual.
I especially love your Alice In Wonderland analogy.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
22. K & R
:kick:
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