Some Sick Doin's at the Santorum House.

[true_notes]

From Wikipedia.

Santorum and his wife, Karen Garver Santorum, have six children: Elizabeth Anne; Richard John ("Johnny"), Jr.; Daniel James; Sarah Maria; Peter Kenneth; and Patrick Francis. In 1996, their son Gabriel Michael was born prematurely and lived for only two hours (a sonogram taken before Gabriel was born revealed that his posterior urethral valve was closed and that the prognosis for his survival was therefore poor). Karen Santorum wrote a book about the experience: Letters to Gabriel: The True Story of Gabriel Michael Santorum.<9> In it, she writes that the couple brought the deceased infant home from the hospital and introduced the dead child to their living children as "your brother Gabriel" and slept with the body overnight before returning him to the hospital. The anecdote was also written about by Michael Sokolove in a 2005 New York Times magazine story on Santorum.<10> Karen is also the author of a book on etiquette.

[yourout]

1. That is creepy.

Sleeping with a dead body......WTF.

[dogday]

2. This is just plan sick

I don't care how you want to spin it... Sick and twisted....

[liberalnurse]

52. I really don't believe they actually did that.....

I sense that she is fictionalizing the loss in effort to arouse the "right to life" poole. I do not dispute that they are making the claim....but, I want witnesses. :eyes:

[tenshi816]

128. He did do it,

according to this article in the Washington Post in April last year.

The article starts out:

In his Senate office, on a shelf next to an autographed baseball, Sen. Rick Santorum keeps a framed photo of his son Gabriel Michael, the fourth of his seven children. Named for two archangels, Gabriel Michael was born prematurely, at 20 weeks, on Oct. 11, 1996, and lived two hours outside the womb.

Upon their son's death, Rick and Karen Santorum opted not to bring his body to a funeral home. Instead, they bundled him in a blanket and drove him to Karen's parents' home in Pittsburgh. There, they spent several hours kissing and cuddling Gabriel with his three siblings, ages 6, 4 and 1 1/2. They took photos, sang lullabies in his ear and held a private Mass.

"That's my little guy," Santorum says, pointing to the photo of Gabriel, in which his tiny physique is framed by his father's hand. The senator often speaks of his late son in the present tense. It is a rare instance in which he talks softly.

He and Karen brought Gabriel's body home so their children could "absorb and understand that they had a brother," Santorum says. "We wanted them to see that he was real," not an abstraction, he says. Not a "fetus," either, as Rick and Karen were appalled to see him described -- "a 20-week-old fetus" -- on a hospital form. They changed the form to read "20-week-old baby."

[KingFlorez]

3. Weird, just weird

[Sugarcoated]

4. How far along was her pregnancy, I wonder?

[true_notes]

7. Not sure

However, it doesn't matter. If you sleep with a dead fetus of any sort, you are insane. No "God's intervention" bullshit. You are insane.

[tenshi816]

129. 20 weeks. n/t

[JitterbugPerfume]

5. those poor children

can you even imagine how this must have affected them?

[Horse with no Name]

6. This ISN'T the issue to go after him on

How people deal with their grief is none of your business.
Things of this nature are more common place than you might think and you alienate each and every person who has had to deal with the death of an infant.
We are a party of personal choice. This was their personal choice. It doesn't have to be yours.
It's not very progressive to ridicule this. Not at all.

[true_notes]

8. You shouldn't do that ummm hummmm...

He's just a little feller ummmm hmmmm.

Rick Santurums Run for Congress

<img src="">

[Horse with no Name]

11. Not funny at all.

Good try. I am a nurse and I would surmise to say that I am pretty able to talk about how family members deal with death.
And I am hear to say that anyone that wants to criticize THAT is a very narrow minded and shallow person.
Santorum gives plenty of substantive material for people to criticize.
Why drag this weary topic out again?

[maseman]

26. Gonna go get me sum biscuits and gravy...ummmm hummmm

[JitterbugPerfume]

10. have held a dead son in my arms

so I think I know what I am talking about Those children were not equipped to deal with this

[Horse with no Name]

12. I am sorry for your loss.

But I know what I am talking about as well. It's none of your business.

[dmr]

135. I agree with you

I held and rocked my newborn daughter in my arms for a long time after she passed away, as her father and I quietly wept.

For anyone to interfere and pass judgement on how this or any family copes with their grief is cold-hearted and cruel. It makes no difference whether we agree with them or not. We just cannot attack the heartache and emptiness of those who've lost a child.

[renate]

162. I am so very sorry for your loss

What a touching, heartbreaking story. There just aren't words for how sorry I am and how much I wish you hadn't suffered such a loss.

I couldn't agree with you more that grief is a very personal process. I cannot imagine criticizing the way this family, or any other, dealt with their loss.... it felt right to them and I hope it gave them some comfort.

At times like this we're all just human beings and I would hope that we would feel compassion towards anybody who had to undergo such pain.

[MindMatter]

151. Keeping a dead baby overnight

to sleep with is sick. This guy is deranged.

Grief often peels away veneers of pretense, taking us down to our core selves. When you get to the core of Santorum, you find one sick fuck. He isn't just a bad guy, he is mentally sick. Grieving cannot explain that behavior.

And please, you are not the only person who ever grieved.

[Gormy Cuss]

29. I value your insight on this matter. Thank you. n/t

[Berry Cool]

13. I have to say, I agree with Horse.

I bear no love for Mr. Santorum, but jeez, from what some of you say, you'd think he had sex with the poor thing.

I cannot even imagine what it must be like to have a baby and then learn that it has no chance of survival.

We are past the old days when couples who miscarried or lost a baby through stillbirth or a birth defect that meant they were nonviable were told to just "forget all about it" and focus on having another child.

We now realize that when a child turns out not to be viable, many hopes and dreams die along with that child...who, to its parents and family, was a person. A person who died.

We now understand that it's OK and healthy for them to grieve their loss in whatever way they find helpful. Some choose to spend an hour with the baby they have lost to say goodbye. Some even have that time photographed, pictures taken of the child. It's their way of validating the personhood of the one they have lost.

If the Santorums chose to make the unusual decision to take their baby home for one night and share him with their children, and even to sleep beside him for one night, is that so horrible? Was the goal not simply to make him real...to make it OK to say "We had a son/brother named Gabriel, but he died"? Rather than pretending he never existed?

For some, maybe a few hours in the hospital would have been enough. They chose a night at home. I can't judge them. I don't know what it's like to be them.

People have their own ways of grieving and have the right to do it on their own timetable...not someone else's or in accordance with what someone else thinks is proper.

Let's criticize Mr. Santorum on his work as a politician...that should give us plenty of fodder for criticism, without having to resort to Rove-like attempts at personal smears that he does not, in my opinion, deserve.

[hootinholler]

14. Hear Hear!

People do things through grief that others think odd.

Not for me but not for me to be critical of either.

Thanks, this needed to be said.

-Hoot

[annabanana]

35. I'm with you on this.

I wouldn't presume to intrude on such a personal matter.

I'm only sorry that this miserable person would so happily intrude on personal matters of mine. He clearly has his head up his ass not to recognize that his pain isn't "more privileged" than anyone else's.

[knitter4democracy]

90. Thank you!

I'm so tired of seeing this trotted out periodically. I don't care what they did to deal with their grief. Only someone who'd lost a child could truly understand their need to do that. You know, funerals used to be in the person's home with visitations going on for days with the deceased lying in state in an open casket. Death didn't used to be this gross, icky thing we all had to run away from.

[DesertRat]

102. And it doesn't say that they brought home a dead baby from the hospital

It says that the baby lived for a few hours. I think that they brought him home for the few hours that he lived, then brought him back to the hospital. I know a couple who did that as well and it was a loving thing to do for the whole family.

I can't stand Santorum. But I would never go after him on how his family dealt with the tragedy of losing a child.

[RamboLiberal]

147. No they brought the dead baby home

Now I'm not going to criticize them for this. How they handled this is their own business and beliefs and not ours to mock IMHO.

This is one subject I wish Randi Rhodes would drop. When she gets on her rant about Santorum bringing the baby home and letting "his kids play with a dead fetus."

I saw no such thing in the reports I've read.

Again - there's lots that's creepy about Ricky. But I'm not going after this!

[JerseygirlCT]

133. I completely agree. There is PLENTY of substantive stuff to

hit him with. This is just a distraction, and it's a mean one, too.


He's an ass, he's an idiot, he's said and done any number of truly harmful and stupid things. Plenty of fodder there, I'd think.

[Patchuli]

136. If they wrote about it in a book, they made it

everyone's business who happens to read it. I don't see anyone "going after" the Santorums for doing that, but it's not mentally healthy at all. I would have to wonder if it scared the other kids and if that was a good choice.

That said, it was their call.

[Ken Burch]

160. I agree.

A lot of people actually go through very elaborate processes with stillborn children or those who died as infants, naming them, taking pictures.

While I have no use for Rick Santorum, this must have been a horrible loss. I don't see this as political. Plus, this could really backfire if anybody tried to use it. There's already a good chance that the Freepers will post this thread in their forums to use against us.

Best to leave this one alone.

[leftofthedial]

9. When introducing the dead infant to your family, always

introduce the girls first, beginning with the eldest female living child and continuing in descending order of age. Introduce each child individually to the dead infant, rather than as a group.

When entertaining, the proper hostess will seat the dead infant's body to the left of the hostess. Always use freshly polished silver when the dead infant's body is seated at the dinner table. The highly reflective surfaces will give the dead infant's skin an almost lifelike glow.

When sleeping with the body of your dead infant, be sure that the dead infant is in the middle of the bed. Otherwise, the dead infant's body could fall out of bed unnoticed, posing a tripping hazard for others who might need to arise in the middle of the night to attend to personal matters. Nothing is more annoying than tripping over the body of a dead infant in the dark.

[Berry Cool]

15. Very funny. NOT.

You know, it'd be nice to see DU'ers try to be above the Rovian cheap shot.

How do we know that they didn't take care to make sure their children wanted to see the baby? How do we know they didn't make sure they had someone to talk to if they had a hard time afterward? How do we know they didn't allow their children to opt out if they chose to?

We don't, do we? But boy, are some of us quick to rush to judgment.

[saracat]

25. Actually, I find it more offensive that Santorum is allowed to shove his

beliefs down our throats on the national stage yet some feel that a subject his wife wrote about and profited from ought to be taboo because it isn't nice. What they do to women's rights isn't nice and what Ms.Santorum did to profit from her tragedy wasn't nice. That gives the public the right and the obligation to comment.This was NOT a private grief.

[leftofthedial]

39. when flaming another DUer over a Santorum dead infant post

always be sure to mention Karl Rove.

[stepnw1f]

71. Oh Yes It Was

Here's another:

When the GOP decides to have their next Convention, maybe they should hold a ball room dance with Terri Schiavo's corpse. Each GOP member of Congress can take turns dancing with her for the cameras, while announcing, "she's still a live... see!".

[saracat]

23. Actually while offensive, since Mrs.Santorum wrote an ettiquette book

this is pretty clever.

[PCIntern]

16. The brilliant Robert Gorlin who was a

Mayo Clinic doc who specialized in syndromes and particularly those involving the head and neck, once addressed our dental school class back in the 70's. He said,and I'm paraphrasing, that there is no excuse for any stillborn infant, no matter how defective, to NOT be draped in an appropriate manner so that the family may hold him or her and achieve closure. Too many of these poor things were whisked away, never having been touched by the parents, who then not only grieved for the rest of their lives, but were always unsure if the truth had been told to them. People differ in fascinating ways, and although my first instinct is to say that this is pretty sick stuff, I've heard a lot worse over the years.

Although I cannot abide Santorum, if this asshole and his wife thought that was the best thing to do, then we have no say in the matter, except to shake our collective heads and go back to defeating him on the issues which count.

[saracat]

17. Not to criticize the manner of grief but what about de comp?

Wouldn't that set in? If they slept with it, I don't think it would have been iced. Wouldn't it be traumatic for kids to see that? And what about the smell? I am sorry but while I can sympathize with their loss, and the desire to hold their child close, this has some health and physiological issues attached. I have lost several family members and can't conceive of bringing the corpse home and keeping it overnight to say goodbye. But then again wakes used to be at home. However we do live in a different society now.

[Horse with no Name]

18. It wouldn't set in that quickly

provided the house was kept cool enough.
If you remember though, in the old days, they used to bring the body home and lay them "in state".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony)
In Ireland, the traditional Catholic wake is still carried out in some areas, particularly rural Ireland. Soon after the death, word of mouth will spread the news and neighbours, relatives and friends will attend the house as soon as they hear. Neighbours help in preparing food and tea as well as alcoholic beverages. The corpse will normally be dressed in white linen and laid out in their own bed. Candles are usually lit and the corpse is never left alone.

The "Irish Wake" is a traditional mourning custom practiced in Ireland. An integral part of the grieving process for family, friends, and neighbors of the deceased, Irish wakes are occasions that mix gaiety and sadness. The custom is a celebration of the life that had passed, but the tone of the wake depended largely on the circumstances of the death.

A wake usually began at the time of death and lasted until the family left with the body for the funeral service. If a death occurred in the evening, the wake was not held until the following night to allow mourners to travel and prepare for the services.

Preparations for the wake began soon after death. All clocks in the house were stopped as a sign of respect, and women gathered to bathe and dress the body. The deceased often wore white garments, and if a man died, his face was shaved clean before being dressed. The body was then lain out for viewing on a table or bed, and was not left unattended until the burial. All mirrors in the household were also removed or turned around.

[saracat]

22. I believe I mentioned that but I have a friend whose mother

was dead less than a day and the blood had already turned her feet and hands black.Their would have to be some biological reaction eveident, even if the house was cool.And in general, as a society( American) we do not advocate house wakes anymore.And as an Irish American, I have never even heard the bit with the mirrors.That is a Jewish custom.

[Horse with no Name]

28. That is called pooling

When the blood is no longer pumping through the body, it generally sinks to the lowest point of gravity--usually the buttocks, thighs, heels, elbows. If the head is lowered, it can pool there as well.

[saracat]

30. I know. And my GF, who was an adult , still has nightmares about seeing it

The concept of contemporary kids possibly viewing such is disturbing. And from a politician who doesn't think kids have the ability to decide anything and supports parental consent for all issues because children don't have the capability to decide, I find it unlikely he would give them a choice.

[tenshi816]

149. People still have house wakes in the South,

or they do in rural areas anyway. When my grandmother died, my grandfather insisted that we adult grandchildren sit with my grandmother's open coffin in the living room overnight, and we went along with it to keep him happy. We took turns doing it in 3-hourly shifts and it was just my luck that my turn came in the wee small hours of the morning. Creepy doesn't begin to describe sitting alone in a candlelit room with a newly-deceased close relative in the middle of the night. I have a vivid imagination anyway and at times halfway expected my nana to sit up and ask if I wanted to play gin rummy.

This went on for two days after my grandmother's death, with visitors going in and out of the house all day long and us sitting with her at night. On the third day, the hearse came from the funeral home to take her coffin to the church for the funeral service.

It has always been the custom in my family (and for that matter, for their friends' families) to have wakes at home but surely, as you say, it must be a practice that's dying out (no pun intended). I don't live in America anymore so didn't do it when my own mother died, but I wouldn't have done it anyway. My feeling is that it's something people used to do when communities were more tightly knit and people tended to stay put in the same place all their lives.

[bumblebee1]

145. My step mother held the wakes of both my father

and her father in the parlor of her home. There was assistance from the local funeral home. To me, it seemed rather strange to do this. However, neither man was in bed for the viewing. They were in their caskets. I don't recall any mirrors being turned around, as there were no mirrors in the parlor. I'm not sure how the casket was taken out of the house for the trip to church for the funeral Mass.

[saracat]

19. I also have to say, it is nice that so many are PC and above criticising

this but if this were a Democratic candidate , they would use this every way they could. And that is why they win. We are too nice.Being above the fray has done nothing but labal us as "elitist" and lose us elections. I am not saying we should use this particular example to attack Santorum just saying our reaction to this says something about the Democratic Party and is an indication why we lose.We has restraints.The GOP does not.

[countingbluecars]

20. What they did in their grief

should be their business, but she wrote a book about it! Did she make and keep money from the sale of this book? She could have expressed her sorrow in a private journal if she needed an outlet! Shame on the Santorums.

[hedgehog]

24. So no one should ever share their experiences with others in the

hope of easing other's pain by sharing? I'll keep that in mind.

[saracat]

27. She shared to make money.There IS a difference.

[hedgehog]

32. Do you know what she did with the money?

I can't find any reference. Who knows? She might have donated the proceeds or used them to pay medical bills. In any case, are you suggesting that any author who ever writes about personal tragedy is only doing it "to make money"?

[saracat]

37. Obviously there is no evidence that she gave the money to charity either

or you would have mentioned it. These are souless people who would inflict their rules of conduct on everyone else causing death and heartbreak and yet some feel they should be protected from criticism? Why should the Santorum's be cut a break? Does Rick cut the thrteen year old rape victim a break when he votes to destroy her life? Did the GOP and Santorum worry about the gay families they destroy? The fact is she wrote a book about her tragedy and profited. That makes it proper for anyone to comment. Her grief is no longer a "private" affair and immune from criticism by propriety.As an "etiquette expert, she would know that. As for any other others, some do and some don't. And all are subject to public comment.

[hedgehog]

41. Criticize her opinions all you want.

My objection is when you start criticizing her methods of facing a personal sorrow. There is an entire genre in American literature of people describing how they faced personal difficulties whether they were death, disease or accident. It is not dishonorable or exploitive to write such a book.

[countingbluecars]

Her book sounds very political to me.

Karen Santorum, a former nurse, wrote letters to her son during and after her pregnancy. She compiled them into a book, "Letters to Gabriel," a collection of prayers, Bible passages and a chronicle of the prenatal complications that led to Gabriel's premature delivery. At one point, her doctor raised the prospect of an abortion, an "option" Karen ridicules. "Letters to Gabriel" also derides "pro-abortion activists" and decries the "infanticide" of "partial-birth abortion," the legality of which Rick Santorum was then debating in the Senate. The book reads, in places, like a call to action.

"When the partial-birth abortion vote comes to the floor of the U.S. Senate for the third time," Karen writes to Gabriel, "your daddy needs to proclaim God's message for life with even more strength and devotion to the cause."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61804-2005Apr17.html

[hedgehog]

66. She wrote letters to all the children during each pregnancy.

It's another form of journaling. She was encouraged by her mother who had lost a child to SIDS to publish this set of letters. The OP derided the Santorums for how they handled the dead body of their child. In the course of this thread, that has expanded to criticizing the Santorums for publicly stating their opinion on abortion. You may argue that Santorum has no right to take away choice from women. It is another thing to ridicule him and call him sick because he and his wife didn't make the same choice you might have. If they hadn't acted as they did, you would be calling them hypocrites and you would be right.

[countingbluecars]

69. I never called them sick or ridiculed

them for the choices they made in dealing with their grief. I do, however, believe that publishing those letters was all about the politics of anti-choice-not about dealing with grief.

[hedgehog]

83. OK, but what's wrong with that?

"Here's what I did when faced with a problem pregnancy, here's why I did what I did, here's why I'm against abortion." As I said, at least she's not a hypocrite.

[countingbluecars]

91. She politicized and made money

on her dead child. Just seems wrong to me.

[hedgehog]

112. What if Cindy Sheehen ever wrote a book?

[saracat]

115. Did cindy sleep with Casey's corpse? Did she introduce people who had

met him to a dead body and ask them to hug and kiss him? Hmmmm?

[hedgehog]

116. The question is, would you accuse Cindy of capitalizing on and

politicizing her son's death if she wrote a book about how it impelled her into the anti-war movement? Sauce for the goose....

(By the way, I would not accuse her of politicizing or profiting from her son's death. I'm just using her as a for instance.)

[countingbluecars]

120. Cindy is not using her son's death

to advocate taking away basic civil rights. The Santorum's agenda (promoted in Mrs. Santorum's book) is anti-woman/anti-choice.

[hedgehog]

121. She is using her son's death to advocate an end to the war.

The principle is using a personal loss to advocate a political position, regardless of whether or not we agree with the position.

[saracat]

123. I see your point but Cindy was thrown into her position through

circumstance. Mrs.Santorum was always anti-choice and just seemed to grab an opportunity of personal tragedy and use it not only to promote her pet agenda but to enrich herself. If nothing else she used it to support her husband's position and a Senate salary is nothing to sneeze at.I have not noticed Cindy getting rich. If she does and starts to be an elitist with her own benefit foremost, she will be equally vulnerable to criticism.

[hedgehog]

124. I think you're stretching to attribute motives to someone you don't like.

She has surgery to save the baby's life, the baby dies anyway and the first thing she thinks of is making money off her circumstances? I don't think so. I would also remind you that Freepers accuse Cindy of grandstanding for her personal celebrity. We can disagree with people without making them out to be total monsters. Dehumanizing the enemy doesn't sound like a Democratic virtue.

[saracat]

131. Excuse me? I am stretching a point? But this is exactly what she did!

I don't think she did it for money's sake alone.I think it was the result of being an empassioned zealot for anti-choice. I think she feels that using her child in this manner does not make him die in vain.She is getting some "value" out of his brief life. This is much the same as those who think Terri Schiavo did not die in "vain" as she inspired their cause. I think it is very sick thinking and not defensible by any means.I could say that you are "stretching" to attribute positive motives to someone who doesn't deserve it because you are probably too nice a person to attribute such wacko motives to a greiving parent. However the Santorums are not now nor ever have fit a sane person's description of "normal".

[countingbluecars]

125. I accept your point here,

and yet I have difficulty comparing the two in my mind. Cindy is right and Santorum is wrong.

[Maine-ah]

150. she did.

http://www.koabooks.com/productdetails.cfm?SKU=Cindy1

[hedgehog]

21. They knew the baby was in trouble and Mrs. Santorum actually

underwent surgery so doctors could attempt to repair the defect. The surgery at 20 weeks was an apparent success, but an infection developed and the child was born early. He lived two hours before dying. (For those who insist on using technical terms, I think this means he was a neonate rather than a fetus.)

It wasn't so long ago that it was customary to have the corpse laid out in the front room and to take turns sitting with it all night. Remember also, that even five years ago people were appalled at the notion of taking a sick person home to die. Now Hospice is considered a wonderful thing. I went to family funerals with the corpse laid out before I could walk. I know families that consider funerals too harsh for 12 year olds. How families handle the death of a loved one is very personal. I think Santorum is being criticized for this because he is a hated politician who is also perceived as a member of a majority "white" culture and is therefore expected to behave according to those norms. People should be aware that there are many cultures within the majority "white" culture and treat them with the same respect given non-white cultures.

[Patchuli]

146. I am sad for this family for their loss

but sleeping with a dead baby is just very very strange. I don't think there were any customs to do that.

[hyphenate]

31. Sorry to make light of this a little

But my mom had triplets in 1958 and they didn't live more than a couple of weeks. My mom knew they were dead or dying, though the little girl lived a bit longer than the two boys.

She said she named the triplets with all the family names that she hated so that when she had more kids, they wouldn't get saddled with horrible names. It was a good way to honor the "ancestors" and still have her own way when the time came. :)

[hedgehog]

34. Everyone has his/her own reaction to sad situations.

I'm glad your Mom could see ahead to better times!

[Pathwalker]

33. So, I take it you've never been to an Irish wake?

In the old-fashioned Irish traditions, the dead person ATTENDS a wake where they are toasted, kissed, saluted, etc. This can go on for hours, or longer, depending on the attendees affection for the deceased, the liquor, each other.
I attended my own Mother's funeral at age five, my paternal grandfather's at age seven. The funeral of my Mother didn't bother me nearly as much as attending her burial, where the permanency of death became all too real for me. Frankly, insulting others for how they deal with death in their own family is not a Democratic platform with which I agree. Surely Santorum's done enough other things worth of running against; this would offend me and I've been a Democrat my entire life.

[hedgehog]

36. I'm curious

I wonder how many here defending Santorum on this single point are Irish? I think we are more comfortable around death than some other sub-cultures. We're the ones who came up with the notion of laughing at death on Halloween with all those jack o'laterns. I wonder what some respondents here think of the Mexican custom of picnicking on the graves of deceased family members on All Souls' Day. How very morbid. All those Mexican children must be horribly traumatized!

[Pathwalker]

42. I don't think we're defending Santorum as much as

we're defending the right of someone to mourn the death of a loved one as we see fit, but I agree that some people suffer from a lack of knowledge about how other cultures deal with death. And yes, I'm of Irish descent too, and was taught that death was just another part of life - the final chapter, so to speak. I don't think they would approve of my sister-in-law trying to prop up my brother so she could pour one last shot of whiskey and a beer chaser down his throat either, but it was one of the funnier moments of his wake. We talked her out of it - as a waste of good whiskey ;-)
I suppose visiting the grave-sites on anniversaries to visit the ghost of the deceased loved one is too ghoulish, too, eh?

[hedgehog]

44. What about the instant road side shrines we see nowadays?

Or the plastic wreaths from K-Mart? Such poor taste, tsk, tsk.

[saracat]

45. And I excercise my option to find those tacky too!

I think they ruin the landscape! JMHO. If one was near my house I would petition for removal.

[Pathwalker]

49. I'd add real flowers, and water them too.

But then, I was raised to respect other's right to mourn - as they see fit.

[saracat]

56. I would suggest they go to a cemetery instead of defacing public property.

When does their "right to mourn" take precedence over my right to travel unimpeded? Over my ability to see traffic? Over my right to enjoy a "natural landscape? Over my right to preserve my property values? Just wondering.If you notice. When Princess Di dies, they didn't keep the shrines up forever.The same with JFK junior. My problem is these are left forever. On a busy public street not far from my house there is a huge 4by 4 color photo of a 16 year old traffic victim. If has food and flowers and teddy bears that rot around it.It has been up for 10years.They keep replacing the photo. This is obsessive and distracting.I am forced to participate in the grieving process of a family I don't know and also watch as their are near accidents caused by both gawkers and blocked visibility.But they have the right to mourn? Thank goodness the city may soon shut these down.They have been afraid of "offending" people. If someone slams into me through lack of visibility ot gawking I will be a lot more than offended!

[Horse with no Name]

53. They don't bother me

:shrug:
There are MANY on the rural roads in Texas. Everytime I see them, the same thought crosses my mind...I need to be careful here.

[saracat]

38. I AM Irish and no one in my family has taken a corpse home and slept with

it. We have had wakes.That is entirely different.

[hedgehog]

43. Some people would never think of taking a small child to a

funeral home to see the body in an open casket. Somehow though, I don't think I was traumatized. My grandmother took pictures of an infant sister of mine in her casket. I'm sure some here would think that a terrible thing. It was quite common years ago to take pictures of the dead with the living posed about them.

The Santorums wanted to affirm that they had indeed lost a child. I wonder if people here are really as upset with how they affirmed that as they are with what they were affirming. Criticize them all you want because they are against choice, but don't criticize their choice.

[saracat]

47. Children went to the infant wakes in my family but they

didn't hold the baby or sleep with it.They weren't exposed to pooling blood or anything else. Mostly, it looked like a sleeping doll.Why can't I criticize their "choice'? They don't want anyone else to have a "choice " at all!

[dogday]

40. At the wake, did you sleep with the deceased?

or in the same room with them? I don't remember that happening... Usually the dead were kept like in the parlor where nobody slept.....

[Pathwalker]

54. No, we took turns watching over them. And sometimes,

someone would fall asleep with their head on the deceased's body, but we didn't act like that was gross, or a crime. We just shook that person awake, and took over watching them. The dead person never spent LESS than 24 hours at home. Besides, I think a dead adult would provide a greater logistical challenge to placing them in a bed and sleeping with them. But, yes, people would actually - occasionally - sleep in the same room with them - usually that person's spouse, and if they wanted a moment or two alone with them to lay down next to them and say goodbye - we left the room, and gave them the privacy they requested. This is not as rare as you seem to think, you've just never heard of it, apparently. It's just not the "American" way of dealing with death - other cultures have defferent practices.

[hedgehog]

60. That reminds me of a picture that turns up on DU every so often

of the Marine's widow who chose to sleep one more time with her husband's body before he was buried. She slept on the floor beside the casket with the Marine Honor Guard standing over them both all night. People have different ways of saying good-bye.

[saracat]

64. But she didn't sleep "with " him. It is a lot different.

[hedgehog]

68. Spending the night holding each other and holding the son

they had had such hopes for. If that eased their anguish, who are we to criticize?

(According to various articles I googled, the Santorums spent the night after the birth at the hospital holding the baby, then later took him home to be held by the other children and for a private Mass. Maybe the funeral Mass?)

[elehhhhna]

141. OH no you didn't

I've got the church-giggles now.

[yurbud]

46. I can't figure out why the GOP invested so much in this mental patient

except that he is extremely obedient.

[angstlessk]

48. Decomposition begins immediately..that corpse must have smelled

horribly. My roommates dog died during the night and she did not bury it, (sick as Santorum)she had to have her daughter come here and take pictures of the dead dog. They poured all sort of fragrant herbs into the box, but by the time that dog was burried that night is had an odor I will never foget and every now and again I get a whif of it..and wonder what is that smell..right the dead dog smell.

If you go to a funeral parlor you smell a very sickly sweet smell..that is to mask the smell of decomposition. That is a sick fuck!

[saracat]

50. Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain/Castile had a daughter who

refused to bury her dead husband, Phillip. She was known as "crazy or mad Juana. She traveled with the body and slept with it.Even the most tradition(and you can;t get more traditional than Catholic Renaissance Royalty) thought this kind of stuff was weird!Yet we are supposed to be understanding of Santorum? I actually don't give a fig about this but it irritates me that people think his family deserves better than it gives to anyone else. They don't respect anyone else's way of life, why should they be exempt from criticism?

[hedgehog]

58. Taking home a dead child overnight is hardly the same as

traveling about Spain for six months with the coffin of your dead husband! Not to mention the fact that Juana was clearly unstable years before her husbnad's death.

[Horse with no Name]

62. I have an overwhelming urge to watch "Weekend at Bernies" again

;)

[saracat]

63. And Santorum has been stable for years? I just don't get why this is taboo

Santorum can tell Casey his "father would be ashamed of him" and that is acceptable? They would use this against us in a heartbeat. Ms.Santorum used her dead child as a political device.Read her book.This is about anti-choice not about a loss or mourning.I see NO reason to cut these people slack.That is what I am really ranting about.We have got to stop treating these people as we would people we respect.They do NOT respect us.Kindness is getting us nowhere. We need to develop a spine and again I am NOT saying we should use this incident.But stop being so tolerant of them.Santorum is not tolerant of anyone else.

[stepnw1f]

51. Another Right Wing Sicko....

ignore words and pay attention to actions. Also... look at the people coming to his defense... echhhh.

[Horse with no Name]

55. Not defending Santorum

defending ANY person's right to grieve how they wish.

[stepnw1f]

57. ahhhh....

and I think Santorum's actions are.... well.... a bit sick. Do people really want to have a man who acts like this while grieving to represent America?

[Horse with no Name]

61. I think I could find lots of other reasons not to want him to represent

America.
1. His stance on choice.
2. His stance on the war.
3. His stance on civil rights.
The list goes on and on and no, how he grieves didn't even make my long list, let alone my short list.
There is plenty other fodder to hate what this man stands for.

[saracat]

65. I agree. I just disagree with the respect given his so called "mourning'

which his wife used as a "political tool" in her book! And she made money which I am guessing helps fuel that same political agenda which she states continually in the book about her "mourning'.

[Horse with no Name]

70. I truly understand where you are coming from

It is typical Repug to make any all things vile and political--including grief. Just as I expect a broken clock to be correct twice a day--I expect a Repug to be despicable, morally bankrupt and money grubbing.
However, as a firm advocate of people's rights to make their life choices, yet excluding this particular situation, then that makes me a hypocrite.
I support the right to choose whether you want to have a baby...or not.
I support the right to have sex with a consenting adult of your choosing...or not.
I support your right to enjoy whatever religion you choose--as long as your religion doesn't infringe on my civil rights--or not.
I support your right to discontinue life support--or not.
I support anyone's right to grieve however they want--or not.

I don't want to be like THEM, so in this most personal tragedy, I have to support whatever their decision was. It doesn't make me like them or support any other idealogical view they have, just support that individual one.

That's the thing about infringing on personal choices.
If you start expecting others to give up their choices or label them as weird or inhuman...then you surely must advocate giving up YOUR personal choices simply because someone else has a visceral reaction on how you choose to live your life.

[stepnw1f]

67. Oh Absolutely

but this one is a gem. I agree with what you say about the many faults we find on the issues he represents.... I just can't agree with his actions not considered as a bit warped. This tid bit however does prove to be more insight into the mind of a man we already considered to be a nut.

I just wonder if people are really trying to defend his actions in bringing home a dead fetus. Either way, it doesn't matter to me... I already dislike the man's stances on the issues you outlined.

[hedgehog]

73. I think it's the insistence on the term "dead fetus" that some

find rude and uncaring. Yes we have Choice in this country. Yes, I find I have to support Choice because the alternative is worse. Yet many mothers are in pain when a pregnancy fails to produce a living child regardless of how early the pregnancy ends or the reason. Some women are relieved to have an abortion and put the problem pregnancy behind them. A mother may decide that she must abort the pregnancy and still mourn the loss of a child.(Something both pro-choices and pro-lifers need to learn!) Others lose a pregnancy for natural reasons and mourn the loss of a child even if technically what died was a fetus or an embryo.

[saracat]

81. I used the term corpse. That is what they call dead bodies.

This was the corpse of a child.And corpses are not usually brought home and introduced to anyone as, according to the Santorum's belief, they are souless and not a person. There is no one to introduce.The spirit has left the body.So Santorum is not really practicing his beliefs.Mourning and introducing people to a corpse are two entirely differnt things.And this was very political and not personal.Otherwise why mention the political agenda if that is NOT what the book is about.Arggh!

[stepnw1f]

97. Ahhhh.... ok

So this is about pissing off those that have a politically motivated "pro-life" agenda? I would hope people still mourned the death of a child in a fetal state. Just not the way this whack job does.

[Horse with no Name]

74. It's not something I would choose to do

however, I wouldn't choose to have an abortion either, although I fully support anyone else's right to do it.

[Pathwalker]

80. Since it was born, and LIVED, it wasn't a fetus,

as a medical person already stated on this thread. And as some of have already stated, we're not defending HIM, just his right to greive as he sees fit. It was his dead child - it lived, and stopped being a fetus when it was born. So what if he didn't grieve according to some white bread don't touch that dead body way Tv has taught us is 'normal' for Americans? I guess the rest of the world is just warped, because it's different than what Americans consider 'normal'.
Considering all the really awful things Santorum's done, why bother with something this personal?
That's wrong, IMO.

[stepnw1f]

100. I Stand Corrected... it was not a fetus

And sorry, but I will attack the nut job. It's right, because it highlights the man's psychosis. This man is not right in the head for his position.

[Pathwalker]

105. Which position on what subject?

There are so many reasons to attack him, but how he chose to say goodbye to a dead child should not be one of the things we run against him - it would backfire. But, his positions on...everything political are fair game, as well as very good reasons to work to defeat him. I think he's creepy, frightening, a disgrace for a Senator - you name it. But to act as if this is the weirdest, most awful thing he's ever done is silly. Other cultures look at death differently, and mocking HIM over this - as a political method - will alienate those cultures. That's all I'm saying. I'm talking about using this against him politically - I feel this would be a terrible mistake, when he's given us a gold mine of other reasons to work against him. Attack him all you want - he's earned it. Help to defeat him - America will be better without him in ANY position of power. Just don't use THIS as your club - it won't help.

[stepnw1f]

113. HIS. (leadership) Position. As. A. Senator

good day.

[Initech]

59. Wow, that is just truly bizarre.

[PresidentWar]

72. How fucking sick can you get?

That just tops the morbidity meter. What did they do when grandam died? Prop her corpse up in the guest chair for a special dinner?

[stepnw1f]

75. What is It With the GOP and Dead People?

The last 6 years have been one big funeral.

[WindRavenX]

Since Santorum doesn't respect MY CHOICES I don't respect his

Period. He has done NOTHING to deserve my respect, so fuck him.

[hedgehog]

78. When you denigrate Santorum for his manner of mourning this

child, aren't you denigrating those of us who have also suffered miscarriages? I was never able to hold the two children I lost. I can understand why Santorum wanted to hold his son.

[saracat]

84. Holding maybe. Introducing people to a corpse? Weird.Using the tragedy to

promote a politca agenda? Contemptable.

[WindRavenX]

88. No, I'm not

You get respect by earning it. And while I am sorry he has lost a child, he has made a life of trying to destroy the lives of millions of loving GLBT individuals in the country.

I know lots of older friends (I'm in college) who have miscarried or suffered from delievering a still-born child-- and I grieve with them and respect their method of grief.

But for Ricky? Why should I respect his choice when he doesn't respect the lives of MILLIONS in this country?

[hedgehog]

93. Attack him for his stand on gay marriage then. That needs to be done.

Going after him about how he reacted to the death of his child just muddies the water.

[WindRavenX]

95. No, he needs to be attacked on his hypocrisy

He gets all flustered when people question his choice of grieving? Too fucking bad. He needs to not care about other peoples PRIVATE lives before I don't call him out on his bullshit in his PRIVATE life.

[dogday]

107. It is a good analogy....

People in glass houses should not throw stones.....

[WindRavenX]

109. well said

:thumbsup:

[saracat]

86. Amen!

[dogday]

76. Worst Thread Of The Year Recommendation

This has got to be up there in the top ten of the worst things we have discussed on this board...

[Horse with no Name]

77. Does it matter that someone drags this topic up 2-3 times a year?

Generally it is locked way before this.

[dogday]

79. I don't remember us getting so

in depth on this subject before, seems like we would just trash Sanitorium and that would be that... This one is for the record books.....

[Horse with no Name]

82. lol

There was a WORSE one, believe it or not. I believe it had over 200 posts before they locked it.
It got downright nasty.

[hedgehog]

87. I think bringing it up as a means of attacking Santorum is nasty.

Now, if you want to talk about him privatizing the Weather Bureau, I'm all for piling on!

[Horse with no Name]

92. Yep.

The guy is sleazy enough. Plenty to pile on.

[dogday]

94. The thing of it is, if this event, which

was private, should of remained a private moment, and not of been for public consumption in the first place... Was it really the public's right to know what they did after their child died? Just that he died should of been enough public knowledge...

How did this information become public anyhow???

[hedgehog]

98. Maybe it's his way of keeping the child close.

It's the opposite of the old custom of not even acknowledging that there was a miscarriage or still born.

[saracat]

99. His wife wrote a book about it and used it to promote an anti-choice

agenda and to make money.That is how the public knew!

[dogday]

106. She used the event as a platform

for no-choice..... That is astounding....

[saracat]

96. Why? Isn't his telling Casey his father would be ashamed nasty?

And why should he be given a pass.He slept with a corpse dammit and introduced a Corpse to his children!And that is not part of any tradition or an "irish wake'. He used his child's death for politcal gain! Jesus.And you want people to "respect' that? Considering he doesn't even respect basic human rights? What the hell is so defensible about this? This isn't about a "right to mourn as you see fit' it is about using a tragedy for political gain and using it to hurt other people. Gag.

[elehhhhna]

142. Perhaps he had a sleepover w/ the elder Mr.Caseys corpse...

and that's how he was able to speak for a dead stranger.

Is it too late for him to sqeeze in a quick nap with Ken Lay? 'Cuz I'd LOVE to hear the real story about Enron.

[dogday]

148. Now that is funny

great answer!!!

[Horse with no Name]

85. Who recommended this thread????

:thumbsdown:

[true_notes]

89. Deez n/m

[Trajan]

101. It is NOT ok to sink to the lowest of those we oppose ....

Santorum's despicable policies dont give US a license to act as boors ....

I am sorry that the Santorum's lost one of their children .... It is not unprecedented to spend time with the body of a loved one who has passed .... I will NOT beat them up over this personal response to grief ....

There are plenty of reasons to dump Santorum from office ... this is not one of them ...

[saracat]

103. This is not the reason to dump him but it is also not a reason to respect

him or his so called "grief'. He made money and used that "grief to firther his politcal agenda.And not sinking to the Lowest of those we oppose hasn't won us any elections lately! Again, I wouldn't use this issue becaude there are enough others but if it is raised I will not respect his right to "mourn" while not respecting anyone else's rights to "mourn" or live their life or participate in basic human rights.I will not grant him what he fights against sharing with others!This is exactly why Democrats lose.

[Trajan]

111. Here is the problem I have with this line of thinking ....

You said, "I will not respect his right to "mourn" while not respecting anyone else's rights to "mourn" or live their life or participate in basic human rights.I will not grant him what he fights against sharing with others!" ...

It is true that Rick Santorum does NOT respect our rights and freedoms, and that he would do anything to restrict our liberties. THAT is why we want him to be deposed from his office ....

THAT is why we reject him ..... Yet; your argument is that since HE restricts our freedoms, and acts in a way that denies us our basic rights, then WE should be allowed to deny those rights ...

In other words, when he acts poorly, we can act poorly too ...

If he denies food, shelter and clothing, then WE should deny food, shelter and clothing ...

If He hurts someone, then WE should hurt someone ....

I do not accept this line of argument ... it is a fallacious appeal ....

We reject Rick Santorum because his actions are immoral .... We cannot turn around and adopt those same actions which we reject .....

The right to mourn is universal .... EVEN if the Santorums act boorishly, it doesnt remove OUR commitment to allow that right ...

We cannot allow ourselves to sink to the lowest level simply because someone else has ....

THe Democrats 'lose' because of a number of reasons .... primarily, I believe, because we cannot seem to project a confident message of successful domestic policy, even though the Democratic Party has had GREAT success in the domestic arena over the decades .... We 'lose' because our opposition has painted us as unable to rule, unable to protect, even though OUR party has done both with decent success ....

We 'lose' because our leaders arent heard expressing their 'vision' of a successful america .... The ideals of the New Deal and Great Society gave the common citizen the ability to prosper, while allowing economic success to flow upward to those who manage capital ..... Where are the voices that express those ideals ? .... WHO is reminding citizens of those days when families could succeed, to send their children to college, to buy a decent home, and to enjoy the collective success of a society sharing in the wealth of our industry ? .....

THAT is why we 'lose' .... not because we refuse to stoop to hectoring others on private matters of grief ....

[saracat]

114. Treating our opponents with the respect and dignity

that they do NOT grant us hasn't worked.We lose because we are "gentleman and ladies" we will not stoop to that "level. I believe we have to fight dirty to win.Again, this example probably shouldn't be use but I am sure there are others.Kennedy rigged the vote, the Dem in Chicago were famous for "illegalities" and Johnson did whatever it took.Remember his phrase" of course its not true, but make the bastard deny it"? Funny , this is what the GOP does now and just like we used to, they win.We need to go back to the rough and tumble politcs.We won then.And I would rather win than be better than the oppositon.WhoopieIntegrity and being "nice' is killing us. JMHO.

[hedgehog]

117. I don't think we're losing because we're polite

Our problem is that we're too wishy-washy. We don't need to fight dirty, we just need to fight. When we're accused of engaging in class warfare, our response should be "Damn right, and about time!"

[saracat]

122. But the only time we won was when we fought dirty.Sad maybe but true. FDR

wheeled and dealed as well. My grandmother actually gave the VP a bribe for the movie industry, and they were Dems! And we used to monkey with the vote and in many ways the GOP learned from us.And they got even better at it. We need to level the playing feild.We have had fighting candidates in the past that didn't win.We apparently have to guarantee a win like the GOP do! Remember those that don't learn from history are demmed to repeat it and we haven't been learning but the GOP has!

[Pathwalker]

132. Remember Mrs. Alito? Mary and Lynne Cheney?

'Poor' Mrs. Alito poked her eye with her finger nail until she cried, then blamed it on those nasty old Democrats for asking such awful "personal" questions, and the Democrats were vilified over it. Then, there were Lynne and Mary Cheney, ouraged over John Kerry getting so "personal" over Mary's being a Lesbian.
Now, imagine Mrs. Santorum, sobbing into the camera, crying foul over those "Nasty Democrats, who have no problem "appeasing the terrorists" by saying they don't want the government wiretapping the citizens phones and computers because it's so "personal", but they have no problem invading such a private, personal moment in their family's life - and doing it for POLITICAL GAIN".
Then, she'll call US the hypocrites, and the repuke outrage machine would go into overdrive.
That is the true history of the republican party's history of going after Democrats when we dare to go after them on personal grounds. Yeah, they're hypocrites, but they're also masters at throwing stuff like this back in our faces. History proves that. I think the potential blowback on using this would be enormous.

You want to play dirty: Hack the vote in some obvious way - like giving Mickey Mouse a million votes somewhere. Otherwise, stick with those issues that matter to people.

[saracat]

137. Exactly my point. That is why I repeatedly said, I would NOT use this!

But the GOP would if it was say the Clinton's! I also think the blow back would be terrible but I think we should "hack " the vote or something and if something is really bad, I think we should "use' it. They would. I just don't think this particular thing , while bad, is something for us to use. But if Ricky is "cheating" say, I'd vote use it! In fact , even if he isn't do the LBJ, "make him deny it" !

[proud2BlibKansan]

104. This story can't be told enough

Santorum is a sick bastard. Had I heard about this when it happened, I would have hotlined him and his wife for child abuse. His children will NEVER forget this. And their memories will NOT be pleasant.

[saracat]

108. Absolutely right on.

[sakabatou]

110. Ewwwwww....

:puke:

[GrantDem]

118. Okay... that is just weird...

I know people mourn, and deal with death, in different ways but.....

???????????

[LeftyMom]

119. I feel a bit qualified to say that this is nuts.

Before anybody jumps my case, I have a history of pregnancy loss (though mine were somewhat earlier) and I come from an Italian-American Catholic family, so I'm not judging somebody with experiences wildly different from my own. There's no fucking way anybody in thier right mind would want to sleep with thier cold, dead baby. Never had the option myself, as my late first trimester and early second losses had me ejecting blood and chunks of human from one end and vomit from the other for days on end with nothing that looked vaugely like a baby to mourn, but having seen death in other instances the idea of taking a corpe, cold, miscolored, child stiff from rigor, introducing it to the siblings and then sleeping with it is profoundly disturbing. Focusing on the corpse so seems especially odd in people who did have a short time with thier live child, it would perhaps be a bit less odd in a stillbirth when there was no way to say goodbye to a child who was living.

I think we should grant a great deal of leeway to mourning parents, but I'm a mother myself and I'll damned sure criticize anybody who risks traumatizing thier living children in such a way, just as we almost all condemn Barbara Bush for golfing and ignoring the death of her daughter.

[true_notes]

126. Thanks Lefty Mom

Maybe this post will help quell some of the soft hearted "mourning blues" people on this post.

This is insanity at it's best.

[elehhhhna]

139. What hospital lets people take corpses home overnight?

The story does not pass the smell test.

PS I HATE Bar but she apparently did not "ignore the death of her daughter". She was ALONE at the bedside for the long hospitalization, deterioration, and death, thanks to her busy busy oh so manically busy husband. She golfed the day after Robin died because when GHWB finally showed up, he wanted to golf.

That's per Kitty Kelly who otherwise does NOT flatter BB at all.

Regardless, better to golf the next day than say goodbye the Santorum way.

[stepnw1f]

127. Santorum Tells Casey His Dead Father ‘Would Be Very Upset’

Santorum Tells Casey His Dead Father ‘Would Be Very Upset’

Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA) debated challenger Bob Casey today on Meet the Press. As Atrios first noted, Santorum said during the debate, “I think his father would be very upset if, if he were alive today and, and heard him be supportive of something like this.” Watch it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/03/casey-father/

Open season! However, Casey will be above this....

[Frazzled Educator]

130. I hope that turns into a repressed memory.

Sick. . .but who bought that book? Last thing we all need is an indepth look into the Santorum Sanitorium.

[and-justice-for-all]

134. Its sad and creepy at the sametime...

[Hubert Flottz]

138. Creeps are...

Creepy

Norman Bates for Senate anyone?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

140. Would they do this if the child was 10 years old...or is it just another

rePUKE trying to use their kid to make an anti abortion point?

[Ignacio Upton]

143. We shouldn't use this against him

He's a scumbag and he's a crook, but many people react in strange ways when it comes to grieving. I think it would backfire on Casey if he uses it. I DO, however, want him to talk about the K-Street Project, Social Security privatization, Santorum's mysoginy, and Penn Hills.

[citizen snips]

144. that is sick

:puke:

[Fierce]

152. Y'know, I hate Santorum as much as any of them.

And this story gets posted once a month or so. I have no idea what I would do if I gave birth to a dying baby. And if this brought them some comfort, more power to them. Many parents of stillborn babies or babies who die soon after birth take photos and cuddle the little bodies, and it provides a lot more comfort than in the days when the babies were whisked away without even letting the mothers see them.

We know he's sick. But we've got better things than this to go after him for.

(Since this is like reponse No. 155, I'm sure no one will see it. But *I* feel better!)

[FooFootheSnoo]

153. I cannot believe how cold some people are

I don't like this guy, he's an asshole. But....

Everyone that's making the jokes about fetuses and the crass comments should be ashamed of themselves. Now, I don't want to sound like an old schoolmarm lecturing people, but have a heart and a little respect. If you can't have any respect for Santorum and his wife, then have a little respect for the baby who was indeed a human being (an innocent one at that). We are talking about two parents who lost their baby. There is no greater tragedy on this earth than to lose a child. The people making jokes about the dead baby and his parents are the sick ones in this situation, not Santorum.

[NoodleyAppendage]

155. What do you not get? He took a dead baby home & traumatized his kids!

Yes, it's a tragedy to lose a child, but it is an equal tragedy to traumatize your living children by waving a dead infant in their faces and making them face the horror of death and dying before they are even teenagers.

Santorum's actions are a case of grief overshadowing common sense or the well being of his living children. It is a sick thing to do. PERIOD.

J

[FooFootheSnoo]

157. What if the child was a little older?

Say he died at 6 or 7 years old instead of right after birth? Would it be sick for the Santorums to let the siblings say goodbye and see their brother or sister one last time before he or she was buried? Would that be exposing them to the "horror of death and dying"? Death is a part of life. If handled properly, I don't see how this would traumatize the children. Goodness, the baby was part of their family too.

[elehhhhna]

158. You are referring to a WAKE, not a sleepover.

[Anita Garcia]

156. We have rights

I have no idea what I would do in that circumstance.
I am not going to judge that family for their choices.
We have rights. This was a choice they made.
I hope that one day, this family remembers others when called to make decisions regarding my rights.

[NoodleyAppendage]

154. Isn't this illegal?? Can anyone just take a dead body home??

It would be interesting to know if this sort of sick, latent necrophilic bullshit should even happen. I mean...can just anyone go to the hospital and say, "I'd like to take my dead husband home for the night and return him tomorrow morning?" Seems like the PA Department of Health would have issues with this sort of dead loved one "borrowing" system.

J

[jmowreader]

159. This isn't terribly strange, believe it or not

Google "God's Nursery in Heaven" and look at ALL the pages. Preferably with your speakers turned off.

Rick Santorum is such an easy target for other things, we shouldn't go after him on this.

Look, the fucker thinks George W. Bush is a wonderful president and thinks there are WMDs in Iraq. We can stomp him like the cockroach he is if we stick to the issues, but harping on the fact that he slept with his dead child could ignite a sympathy backlash against us.

So let's not do this any more, okay?

[REP]

165. Except it Wasn't A "Child" - It Was a 20-Week Old Fetus

Even had the fetus been compatible with life, it could not have survived ex-utero at that age. Not a child. A fetus.

[Swamp Rat]

161. If you only knew what REALLY goes on in that house of horrors...

:yoiks:

[renate]

163. I have to disagree with the people who criticize this on the basis...

... of Santorum's beliefs.

(Pardon the brief pause while I try to cope with the fact that I am defending Rick Santorum. :puke:)

It would be one thing if he and his wife had chosen to have an abortion while doing their best to prevent millions of people from exercising the same right of choice. However, they earnestly believe that abortion is wrong. I disagree emphatically, but I'm not going to say they're scum for having a belief different from my own--only for inflicting it on others (which they do... did I make it clear that I intensely dislike Rick Santorum?). But that's not what he and his wife did in this situation.

He's awful, he's horrible, but he and his wife have sincere beliefs and if we're going to defend the right of people to express their beliefs, we have to be okay with people expressing those we find erroneous. I believe free speech is mentioned somewhere in the Constitution (and the idea of legislating the correct way to grieve is repugnant and not worthy of discussion).

The way they dealt with their son's death was congruent with their beliefs. It's apparently not the way most people here would deal with a loss, but it was valid for them.

[REP]

164. They Didn't Bring Home a "Baby" - It Was a Miscarriage

A 20-week fetus isn't a baby under any circumstances. Yes, they may call it a baby, but it's also called a bun in the oven - doesn't make it pastry. They brought home medical waste and made their children kiss it. This is not the loss of a full-term pregnancy - but a 20 week fetus. People can grieve any damn way they feel like, but to make it public (and make money off it, as they did by writing about it) is not really grieving now, is it? it's more of a public display of 'look how sad we are - really!'